Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Doug McIntyre
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 03:38:15PM -0400, William Allen Simpson wrote: > Anyway, wasn't the Open Compute Project supposed to fix all this? > Why not just require OCP in all RFPs? https://xkcd.com/927/

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Mel Beckman
I think the primary issue for front- vs rear-mounted switches is cooling. As long as you use switches that can pull cooling air from either the front or the back, it’s feasible to mount the TOR switches in the back. For example, I think these are parts I used to order for Cisco Catalyst 3850-48

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Andrey Khomyakov
Folks, I kind of started to doubt my perception (we don't officially calculate it) of our failure rates until Mel provided this: "That’s about the right failure rate for a population of 1000 switches. Enterprise switches typically have an MTBF of 700,000 hours or so, and 1000 switches operating 87

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread William Allen Simpson
On 9/25/21 7:52 PM, Joe Greco wrote: On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 04:23:38PM -0700, Jay Hennigan wrote: On 9/25/21 16:14, George Herbert wrote: (Crying, thinking about racks and racks and racks of AT&T 56k modems strapped to shelves above PM-2E-30s???) And all of their wall-warts [...] You were

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Mel Beckman
That’s about the right failure rate for a population of 1000 switches. Enterprise switches typically have an MTBF of 700,000 hours or so, and 1000 switches operating 8760 hours (24x7) a year would be 8,760,000 hours. Divided by 12 failures (one a month), yields an MTBF of 730,000 hours. -mel

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Doug McIntyre
On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 12:48:38PM -0700, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > We operate over 1000 switches in our data centers, and hardware failures > that require a switch swap are common enough where the speed of swap starts > to matter to some extent. We probably swap a switch or two a month. ... This

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-27 Thread Tore Anderson
* Andrey Khomyakov > Interesting tidbit is that we actually used to manufacture custom rails for > our Juniper EX4500 switches so the switch can be actually inserted from the > back of the rack (you know, where most of your server ports are...) and not > be blocked by the zero-U PDUs and all th

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-26 Thread Lady Benjamin Cannon
I can install an entire 384lb 21U core router in 30 minutes. Most of that time is removing every module to lighten the chassis, then re-installing every module. We can build an entire POP in a day with a crew of 3, so I’m not sure there’s worthwhile savings to be had here. Also consider that

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-26 Thread Alan Buxey
> We operate over 1000 switches in our data centers, and hardware failures that > require a switch swap are common enough where the speed of swap starts to > matter to some extent. We probably swap a switch or two a month. having operated a network of over 2000 switches, where we would see maybe

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Joe Greco
On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 04:23:38PM -0700, Jay Hennigan wrote: > On 9/25/21 16:14, George Herbert wrote: > >(Crying, thinking about racks and racks and racks of AT&T 56k modems > >strapped to shelves above PM-2E-30s???) > > And all of their wall-warts [...] You were doing it wrong, then. :-) Ex

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Jay Hennigan
On 9/25/21 16:14, George Herbert wrote: (Crying, thinking about racks and racks and racks of AT&T 56k modems strapped to shelves above PM-2E-30s…) And all of their wall-warts and serial cables The early 90s were a dangerous place, man. Yes, but the good news is that shortly thereafter

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread George Herbert
(Crying, thinking about racks and racks and racks of AT&T 56k modems strapped to shelves above PM-2E-30s…) The early 90s were a dangerous place, man. -George Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2021, at 8:05 PM, Wayne Bouchard wrote: > > Didn't require any additional time at all when equipmen

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Shawn L via NANOG
Why about thinks like the Cisco 4500 switch series that are almost as long as a 1u server. But yet only has mounts for a relay type rack. As far as boot times, try a Asr920. Wait 15 minutes and decide if it’s time to power cycle again or wait 5 more minutes Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25,

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Michael Thomas
On 9/25/21 2:08 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote: On 9/25/21 13:55, Baldur Norddahl wrote: My personal itch is how new equipment seems to have even worse boot time than previous generations. I am currently installing juniper acx710 and while they are nice, they also make me wait 15 minutes to boot. T

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Brandon Butterworth
On Sat Sep 25, 2021 at 12:48:38PM -0700, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > We are looking at Nvidia (former Mellanox) switches If I was going to rule any out based on rails it'd be their half width model. Craziest rails I've seen. It's actually a frame that sits inside the rack rails so you need quite a b

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Owen DeLong via NANOG
> On Sep 25, 2021, at 12:48 , Andrey Khomyakov > wrote: > Let me just say from the get go that no one is making toolless rails a > priority to the point of shutting vendors out of the evaluation process. I am > not quite sure why that assumption was made by at least a few folks. With > that

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Jay Hennigan
On 9/25/21 13:55, Baldur Norddahl wrote: My personal itch is how new equipment seems to have even worse boot time than previous generations. I am currently installing juniper acx710 and while they are nice, they also make me wait 15 minutes to boot. This is a tremendous waste of time during in

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Baldur Norddahl
The "niceness" of equipment does factor in but it might be invisible. For example if you like junipers cli environment, you will look at their stuff first even if you do not have it explicitly in your requirement list. Better rack rails will make slightly more people prefer your gear, although it

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Andrey Khomyakov
Well, folks, the replies have certainly been interesting. I did get my answer, which seems to be "no one cares", which, in turn, explains why network equipment manufacturers give very little to no attention to this problem. A point of clarification is I'm talking about the problem in the context of

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread ic
Hi, > On 24 Sep 2021, at 12:37, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > > (you know, where most of your server ports are…) Port side intake (switch at the front of the rack) is generally better for cooling the optical modules. The extra cabling difficulty is worth it. Also, as others said, choosing an argu

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-25 Thread Sabri Berisha
- On Sep 24, 2021, at 11:19 AM, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Hi, > Seriously, the physical build of network equipment is not entirely > competent. Except, sometimes there is little choice. Look at 400G QSFP-DD for example. Those optics can generate up to 20 watts of heat that needs t

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Bryan Fields
On 9/24/21 10:58 PM, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: > Meh… Turn off power supply input switch, open chassis carefully, apply > high-wattage 1Ω resistor across capacitor terminals for 10 seconds. > If dealing with a charged capacitor, do not use a low resistance such as a ohm. This is the same as

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Wayne Bouchard
Didn't require any additional time at all when equipment wasn't bulky enough to need rails in the first place I've never been happy about that change. On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 09:37:58AM -0700, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > Hi folks, > Happy Friday! > > Would you, please, share your thoughts on

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Owen DeLong via NANOG
> On Sep 24, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Niels Bakker wrote: > > * c...@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) [Sat 25 Sep 2021, 00:17 CEST]: >> Which - why do I have to order different part numbers for back to front >> airflow? It's just a fan, can't it be made reversible? Seems like that >> would be cheaper th

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Martin Hannigan
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 1:34 PM Jay Hennigan wrote: > On 9/24/21 09:37, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > > > *So ultimately my question to you all is how much do you care about the > > speed of racking and unracking equipment and do you tell your suppliers > > that you care? How much does the time it ta

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Niels Bakker said: > * c...@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) [Sat 25 Sep 2021, 00:17 CEST]: > >Which - why do I have to order different part numbers for back to > >front airflow? It's just a fan, can't it be made reversible? > >Seems like that would be cheaper than stocking alternate p

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread William Herrin
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 3:36 PM Niels Bakker wrote: > * c...@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) [Sat 25 Sep 2021, 00:17 CEST]: > >Which - why do I have to order different part numbers for back to > >front airflow? It's just a fan, can't it be made reversible? Seems > >like that would be cheaper than stoc

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Niels Bakker
* c...@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) [Sat 25 Sep 2021, 00:17 CEST]: Which - why do I have to order different part numbers for back to front airflow? It's just a fan, can't it be made reversible? Seems like that would be cheaper than stocking alternate part numbers. The fan is inside the power su

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, William Herrin said: > I care, but it bothers me less that the inconsiderate air flow > implemented in quite a bit of network gear. Side cooling? Pulling air > from the side you know will be facing the hot aisle? Seriously, the > physical build of network equipment is not entirel

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Joe Maimon
Andrey Khomyakov wrote: Hi folks, Happy Friday! Interesting tidbit is that we actually used to manufacture custom rails for our Juniper EX4500 switches so the switch can be actually inserted from the back of the rack (you know, where most of your server ports are...) and not be blocked by

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread George Herbert
I’ve seen Dell rack equipment leap for safety (ultimately very very unsuccessfully…) in big earthquakes. Lots of rack screws for me. -George Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 24, 2021, at 9:41 AM, Andrey Khomyakov > wrote: > >  > Hi folks, > Happy Friday! > > Would you, please, share your tho

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Joe Greco
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 02:49:53PM -0500, Doug McIntyre wrote: > You mention about hardware lockin, but I wouldn't trust Dell to not switch > out the design on their "next-gen" product, when they buy from a > different OEM, as they are want to do, changing from OEM to OEM for > each new product lin

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Doug McIntyre
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 09:37:58AM -0700, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > We selected Dell switches in part due > to Dell using "quick rails'' (sometimes known as speed rails or toolless > rails). Hmm, I haven't had any of those on any of my Dell switches, but then again, I haven't bought in in aw

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Randy Carpenter
Considering that the typical $5 pieces of bent metal list for ~$500 from most vendors, can you imagine the price of fancy tool-less rack kits? Brand new switch: $2,000 Rack kit: $2,000 -Randy

RE: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Kevin Menzel via NANOG
Hi Andrey: I work in upper education, we have hundreds upon hundreds of switches in at least a hundred network closets, as well as multiple datacenters, etc. We do a full lease refresh every 3-5 years of the full environment. The amount of time it takes me to get a switch out of a box/racked is

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Alain Hebert
    Hi,     In my opinion:         That time you take to rack devices with classic rail can be viewed as a bounding moment and, while appreciated by the device, will reducing downtime issues on the long run that you may have if you just rack & slap 'em.     It is also Friday =D. - Alai

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread richey goldberg
30 minutes to pull a switch from the box stick ears on it and mount it in the rack seems like a really long time.I think at tops that portion it that’s a 5-10 minute job if I unbox it at my desk. I use a drill with the correct toque setting and a magnetic bit to put them on while it

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Mauricio Rodriguez via NANOG
Andrey, hi. The speed rails are nice, and are effective in optimizing the time it takes to rack equipment. It's pretty much par for the course on servers today (thank goodness!), and not so much on network equipment. I suppose the reasons being what others have mentioned - longevity of service l

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread William Herrin
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > Interesting tidbit is that we actually used to manufacture custom rails for > our Juniper EX4500 switches so the switch can be actually inserted from the > back of the rack (you know, where most of your server ports are...) and not > be

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Denis Fondras
> You mention a 25-minute difference between racking a no-tools rail kit and > one that requires a screwdriver. At any reasonable hourly rate for someone > to rack and stack that is a very small percentage of the cost of the > hardware. If a device that takes half an hour to rack is $50 cheaper tha

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Jay Hennigan
On 9/24/21 09:37, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: *So ultimately my question to you all is how much do you care about the speed of racking and unracking equipment and do you tell your suppliers that you care? How much does the time it takes to install or replace a switch impact you?* Very little. I

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Brandon Butterworth
On Fri Sep 24, 2021 at 09:37:58AM -0700, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: > As far as I know, Dell is the only switch vendor doing toolless rails Having fought for hours trying to get servers with those rails into some DCs racks I'd go with slightly slow but fits everywhere > *So ultimately my question to

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Grant Taylor via NANOG
On 9/24/21 10:37 AM, Andrey Khomyakov wrote: So ultimately my question to you all is how much do you care about the speed of racking and unracking equipment and do you tell your suppliers that you care? How much does the time it takes to install or replace a switch impact you? I was having a

Re: Rack rails on network equipment

2021-09-24 Thread Mel Beckman
We don’t care. We rack up switches maybe once or twice a year. It’s just not worth the effort to streamline. If we were installing dozens of switches a month, maybe. But personally I think it’s crazy to make rackability your primary reason for choosing a switch vendor. Do you base your automobil