Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 25, 2011, at 12:05 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > > They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All > receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a > transfer, is needs-based. Anything else wou

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Randy Bush wrote: They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a transfer, is needs-based. Anything else would be removing a critical resource from use. >>> http:/

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Ernie Rubi wrote: > Bankruptcy courts have done this with phone numbers, >read my paper - the 'phone number as assets' in >bankruptcy cases are cited in there. Ernie, Not exactly. Bankruptcy courts have assigned the telephone contracts which include service on a

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 00:27:19 -0300, Rubens Kuhl said: > Microsoft cannot stop other people from dropping such announcement > elsewhere on the DFZ, beyond the transit provider they are paying > money to. And that's exactly what the community response should be if > ARIN finds that this transaction

RE: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

m: Matthew Kaufman [mailto:matt...@matthew.at] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:07 PM To: Jimmy Hess Cc: John Curran; NANOG list Subject: Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million On 3/24/2011 7:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: > > Because that's what IP addresses ar

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > On 25/03/2011 09:54, Christopher Morrow wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Martin Millnert >>  wrote: >>> >>> List, >>> >>> since there are IRR databases operated by non-RIRs, does one need to >>> register a prefix in any RIR-DB at

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On 25/03/2011 09:54, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Martin Millnert wrote: List, since there are IRR databases operated by non-RIRs, does one need to register a prefix in any RIR-DB at all, to see it reachable on the Internet? you successfully mixed up IRR and RI

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Martin Millnert wrote: > List, > > since there are IRR databases operated by non-RIRs, does one need to > register a prefix in any RIR-DB at all, to see it reachable on the > Internet? > you successfully mixed up IRR and RIR in your post, care to untangle that and

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 9:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: > So I wonder rhetorically speaking.. what happens when a bankruptcy > court accidentally sells something that doesn't actually exist, > ... > Because that's what IP addresses are. Totally worthless unless community > participants voluntarily r

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Bankruptcy courts have done this with phone numbers, read my paper - the 'phone number as assets' in bankruptcy cases are cited in there. Just saying Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:24 PM, John Curran wrote: >> On Mar 24, 2011,

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 11:15 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:07 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> On 3/24/2011 7:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: >>> Because that's what IP addresses are. Totally worthless unless community >>> participants voluntarily route traffic for those IPs to the assi

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Jimmy Hess wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:07 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> On 3/24/2011 7:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: >>> Because that's what IP addresses are.  Totally worthless unless community >>> participants voluntarily route traffic for those IPs to the a

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:07 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > On 3/24/2011 7:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: >> Because that's what IP addresses are.  Totally worthless unless community >> participants voluntarily route traffic for those IPs to the assignee. > Would de-peer with Microsoft (or turn down a t

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

What is needed is for the networks in the transit-free club to decide they will not honor any "gray market" route advertisements resulting from extra-normal transfers of this nature, whether the announcement is from a peer or a customer. As we are all aware, no real dent was ever made in routing t

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On 3/24/2011 7:59 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote: Because that's what IP addresses are. Totally worthless unless community participants voluntarily route traffic for those IPs to the assignee. Note that community participants can do this with or without ARIN having updated some entries in a database.

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:24 PM, John Curran wrote: > On Mar 24, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote: >> At your suggestion, I went to the IGP blog and read the last comment.  I see >> there is a response by Ernie Rubi to your blog comment, which captures my >> question so well that (with

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Kind of off topic response so apologies, Perhaps ARINs counsel has counseled you against making statements - fair enough. My question doesn't go to any privileged information, just to general ARIN policy. I'll just say, for a community driven organization, it may seem odd to be silent in su

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 08:13:46PM -0500, Benson Schliesser wrote: [snip] > It's obvious that ARIN, as well as other whois database providers, > should pay attention to the proceedings. But under what premise > might ARIN act as a party to this lawsuit? The proper question might be that if neithe

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote: > At your suggestion, I went to the IGP blog and read the last comment. I see > there is a response by Ernie Rubi to your blog comment, which captures my > question so well that (with apologies to Mr Rubi) I'll quote him: Mr. Rubi is likely

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Hi, John. On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:35 AM, John Curran wrote: >> http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2011/3/23/4778509.html > > Read the comment at the end (attached here for reference). >> Did you have an opportunity to review the actual docket materials, or is >> your "coverage" bas

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

List, since there are IRR databases operated by non-RIRs, does one need to register a prefix in any RIR-DB at all, to see it reachable on the Internet? Have there been any presentations/research done on reachability of RIR-registered vs non-RIR-registered vs completely unregistered announcements?

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Owen, I (and I presume Eric Goldman, author of the post I referenced) was looking at Judge James Ware's actual ruling (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2006cv02554/181054/41/). I don't see anything in there discussing that 'the transfer had to be done in

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

The judge definitely ruled that the transfer had to be done in a manner that complied with ARIN policy and made it clear that the recipient was, indeed, required to sign the RSA. So, yes, Kremen also lost on the address policy basis, which I believe may have been an additional ruling subsequent to

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Ernie Rubi wrote: > Alright, how about this - let's wait and see what the bankruptcy judge says. With bated breath. -Bill -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web:

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Alright, how about this - let's wait and see what the bankruptcy judge says. Which firm do you practice for? On Mar 24, 2011, at 3:05 PM, William Herrin wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Ernie Rubi wrote: >> >> http://ciara.fiu.edu/publications/Rubi%20-%20Property%20Rights%20in%20IP%2

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:15:45 EDT, William Herrin said: > Legacy address transferability has been disputed before. Kremen v. > ARIN. Kremen lost. Yes, but Microsoft's lawyers can probably beat up ARIN's lawyers. pgp5OIWovGzD3.pgp Description: PGP signature

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Sent from my iPad On Mar 24, 2011, at 8:43 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:27:58 CDT, Aaron Wendel said: >> That's a good question. Maybe they can't qualify under Arin rules. Another > >> question will be: how is Arin going to handle it? >> >> Im pretty sure tha

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 3:07 PM, wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:10:14 -0400, Larry Blunk wrote: >> On 03/24/2011 10:06 AM, Joe Provo wrote: >>> Exhibit B expressly indicates they were listed but filed under seal; >>> interesting to request that.  Previous documents indicate they used a >>> thir

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Sent from my iPad On Mar 24, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Tore Anderson wrote: > * Leo Bicknell > >> I think the more interesting question is why would Microsoft pay >> $7.5 million for something they can, at least for the moment, get >> for free. > > A very interesting question indeed! > > However,

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:10:14 -0400, Larry Blunk wrote: On 03/24/2011 10:06 AM, Joe Provo wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 01:27:29PM +, Tony Finch wrote: Jay Nakamura wrote: 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. > From the court documents

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Ernie Rubi wrote: >  http://ciara.fiu.edu/publications/Rubi%20-%20Property%20Rights%20in%20IP%20Numbers.pdf > Even assuming Kremen was decided as ARIN says; United States District Courts > can and do disagree. Hi Ernie, The case you refer to was a dispute about a

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Agreed, Look at: http://ciara.fiu.edu/publications/Rubi%20-%20Property%20Rights%20in%20IP%20Numbers.pdf Even assuming Kremen was decided as ARIN says; United States District Courts can and do disagree. On Mar 24, 2011, at 2:24 PM, David Conrad wrote: > Yes, Kremen lost, but not based on an

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 8:15 AM, William Herrin wrote: > Legacy address transferability has been disputed before. Kremen v. > ARIN. Kremen lost. Yes, Kremen lost, but not based on anything related to address policy: http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2007/01/kremen_loses_ch_1.htm Regards, -drc

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

John, On Mar 24, 2011, at 5:42 AM, John Curran wrote: > As usual, I will simply point out to folks that ARIN will indeed > administer the policy as adopted, and will explain it as necessary in > various courtrooms. Oddly, when I said something similar a few years back, I was accused of attempt

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Tore Anderson wrote: > * Bill Woodcock >> They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need.  All >> receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a >> transfer, is needs-based. > > I've understood that this claim is undisputed *only* for

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

>>> They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All >>> receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a >>> transfer, is needs-based. Anything else would be removing a critical >>> resource from use. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canute > Thank you Randy. Give

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

eo Bicknell > To: nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Thu, Mar 24, 2011 14:08:21 GMT+00:00 > Subject: Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million > > In a message written on Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:32:21AM -0400, Bret Clark > wrote: >> Why would Microsoft ne

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:34:13AM -0400, Steven Bellovin wrote: > > On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:27 58AM, Aaron Wendel wrote: > > > That's a good question. Maybe they can't qualify under Arin rules. > > Another question will be: how is Arin going to handle it? > > > > Im pretty sure that the RSA s

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:34:13AM -0400, Steven Bellovin wrote: > > On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:27 58AM, Aaron Wendel wrote: > > > That's a good question. Maybe they can't qualify under Arin rules. > > Another question will be: how is Arin going to handle it? > > > > Im pretty sure that the RSA s

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >> They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All >> receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a >> transfer, is needs-based. Anything else would be removing a critical >> resource from use. > > http://en.wiki

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 8:57 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2011/3/23/4778509.html Read the comment at the end (attached here for reference). /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN > Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, Requests Approval of Sale of IPv4 addr

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:27 58AM, Aaron Wendel wrote: > That's a good question. Maybe they can't qualify under Arin rules. Another > question will be: how is Arin going to handle it? > > Im pretty sure that the RSA says that in the event of bankruptcy ips revert > to the Arin pool. I understa

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

> They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All > receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a > transfer, is needs-based. Anything else would be removing a critical > resource from use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canute

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On 03/24/2011 10:06 AM, Joe Provo wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 01:27:29PM +, Tony Finch wrote: Jay Nakamura wrote: 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. > From the court documents I gather that it is a collection of miscellaneous block

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

* Bill Woodcock > They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All > receipt of address space, whether from the free-pool or through a > transfer, is needs-based. I've understood that this claim is undisputed *only* for address space that is covered by the ARIN LRSA or any other no

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

At 15:40 24/03/2011 +0100, Tore Anderson wrote: Either way, it sure seems they're speculating that the market price of an IPv4 address is going to rise to more than US$11.25. Anything that has ceased to be produced and has demand will go up in value. Just rename IPv4 as Pontiac GTO. -Hank

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Tore Anderson wrote: > They can only get them for free from ARIN if they can document > an immediate demand. Perhaps they don't have an immediate demand… They can only get them _at all_ if they can document need. All receipt of address space, whether from the free-p

RE: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

IPv4 address block for $7.5 million * Leo Bicknell > I think the more interesting question is why would Microsoft pay > $7.5 million for something they can, at least for the moment, get > for free. A very interesting question indeed! However, they can only get them for free from ARIN if

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:27:58 CDT, Aaron Wendel said: > That's a good question. Maybe they can't qualify under Arin rules. Another > question will be: how is Arin going to handle it? > > Im pretty sure that the RSA says that in the event of bankruptcy ips revert > to the Arin pool. I unders

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

* Leo Bicknell > I think the more interesting question is why would Microsoft pay > $7.5 million for something they can, at least for the moment, get > for free. A very interesting question indeed! However, they can only get them for free from ARIN if they can document an immediate demand. Perha

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

aron Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: Leo Bicknell To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thu, Mar 24, 2011 14:08:21 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million In a message written on Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:32:21AM -0400,

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

In a message written on Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:32:21AM -0400, Bret Clark wrote: > Why would Microsoft need this many IP's? I could see the benefiting > service providers much more. I think the more interesting question is why would Microsoft pay $7.5 million for something they can, at least for

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 01:27:29PM +, Tony Finch wrote: > Jay Nakamura wrote: > > > 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a > > /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. > > >From the court documents I gather that it is a collection of miscellaneous > blocks that Nortel acquired over

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Mar 24, 2011, at 6:20 AM, Tom Hill wrote: > On Thu, 2011-03-24 at 09:10 -0400, Jay Nakamura wrote: >> 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a >> /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. > > Yeah, I was trying to work that out -- well done for persevering. :) > Sounds like the pieces

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bret Clark wrote: > Why would Microsoft need this many IP's? I could see the benefiting service > providers much more. Microsoft runs Hotmail. Office Live and a bunch of other services you might have heard of. And if every common or garden snowshoer can get a /15

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

yay cloud. On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Bret Clark wrote: > Why would Microsoft need this many IP's? I could see the benefiting service > providers much more. > >

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Why would Microsoft need this many IP's? I could see the benefiting service providers much more. On 03/24/2011 09:27 AM, Tony Finch wrote: Jay Nakamura wrote: 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. > From the court documents I gather that it

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

Jay Nakamura wrote: > 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a > /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. >From the court documents I gather that it is a collection of miscellaneous blocks that Nortel acquired over the years, presumable via corporate M&A. However there isn't (as far as I

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

On Thu, 2011-03-24 at 09:10 -0400, Jay Nakamura wrote: > 666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a > /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. Yeah, I was trying to work that out -- well done for persevering. :)

Re: Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million

666,624 is kind of odd number, isn't it? That comes out to a /13,/15,/19,/21 and a /22. On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2011/3/23/4778509.html > > Nortel, in bankruptcy, sells IPv4 address block for $7.5 million > > by Mil