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USB isn't working on my zv5405us on a 2.6.10 ubuntu kernel. Or on
gentoo. Or anything. It works in WindowsXP though.
I can extract the error from dmesg.
Here's ACPI first (ACPI works btw)
Nvidia board detected. Ignoring ACPI timer override.
ACPI:
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I'm playing Skies of Arcadia Legends on my GameCube and noticing that
software bugs continuously produce errors (no scratch on the disk; I can
have an error, reset, play through it easy). This leads me on and on,
but now it's lead me into thinking abo
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I was writing a section of my paper ("Designing a Secure and Friendly
Operating System") and basically describing and explaining why the
memory protection policy ("mprotect() restrictions") supplied by PaX is
a powerful security tool; and I had a thoug
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Are there any recent kernel profiles? I think from an acedemic
perspective it'd be nice to see some graphs and numbers nobody
understands showing where the longest running code paths in the kernel
occur. It might also be nice for those latency whores
Andi Kleen wrote:
On Tuesday 20 November 2007 04:50, Christoph Lameter wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Andi Kleen wrote:
You could in theory move the modules, but then you would need to implement
a full PIC dynamic linker for them first and also increase runtime overhead
for them because they
in my knowledge. I like to understand everything,
it makes things easier.
Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:32:39 -0500, John Richard Moser
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>CPL=3 scares me; context switches are expensive. can they have direct
>>
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I'm using Ubuntu Linux Hoary
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# uname -a
Linux icebox 2.6.10-5-686 #1 Tue Mar 15 15:16:01 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# fsck.vfat -r /dev/sda1
dosfsck 2.10, 22 Sep 2003, FAT32, LFN
/\uSCK.REN
Duplicate dire
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Roman Zippel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Peter Busser wrote:
>
>
>>- What happens when you run existing commercial applications which have not
>>been compiled using GCC.
>
>
>>From http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt:
>
>The go
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 13:57 +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
>
>>Hi!
[...]
> the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
> it:
> @@ -39,8 +42,6 @@
> */
> int paxtest_mode = 1;
>
> +
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Chris Wright wrote:
> * Lorenzo Hernández García-Hierro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
>>This patch adds two checks to do_follow_link() and sys_link(), for
>>prevent users to follow (untrusted) symlinks owned by other users in
>>world-writable +t dire
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Chris Wright wrote:
> * John Richard Moser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
>>I've yet to see this break anything on Ubuntu or Gentoo; Brad Spengler
>>claims this breaks nothing on Debian. On the other hand, this could
>>
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Chris Wright wrote:
> * John Richard Moser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
>>Yes, mkdtemp() and mkstemp().
>>
>>Of course we can't always rely on programmers to get it right, so the
>>idea here is to make sure we as
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:31:00 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>[*] Grsecurity
>> Security Level (Custom) --->
>> Address Space Protection --->
>> Role Based Access Control O
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proc_misc_init() has both these lines in it:
entry = create_proc_entry("kmsg", S_IRUSR, &proc_root);
proc_root_kcore = create_proc_entry("kcore", S_IRUSR, NULL);
Both entries show up in /proc, as /proc/kmsg and /proc/kcore. So I ask,
as I can't see
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Sytse Wielinga wrote:
[...]
>>If you people ever bothered to read what I say, you wouldn't continually
>>say stupid shit like You get milk from cows wtf idiot
>>chocolate milk doens't come from chocolate cows
>
>
> I'm sorry about the rant. Besi
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Sytse Wielinga wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 03:03:04PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>That being said, you should also consider (unless somebody forgot to
>>tell me something) that it takes two source trees to make a
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[]
Did any of you actually READ the link I put? How the heck did we get
the navy into this?
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All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.
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Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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>>
>> proc_misc_init() has both these lines in it:
>>
>> entry = create_proc_entry("
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Al Viro wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 09:33:48PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>create_proc_entry("kmsg", S_IRUSR, &proc_root);
>>
>>So this is asking for proc_root to be filled?
>>
>>c
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:35:18 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>This particular problem pertains to proc_misc.c and trying to create a
>>hook for some grsecurity protections that alter the mod
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:51:05 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>mmm. I'd thought about that actually-- for modules to get a whack at
>>this they'd have to be compiled in. Loaded as mod
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>
> The patch below replaces the existing 8Kb randomisation of the userspace
> stack pointer (which is currently only done for Hyperthreaded P-IVs) with a
> more general randomisation over a 64Kb range.
>
64k of stack rand
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 12:45 +0100, Julien TINNES wrote:
>
>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>
>>>The randomisation patch series introduces infrastructure and functionality
>>>that causes certain parts of a process' virtual address
e increased the randomization by tweaking one variable aren't we
cool!!!"?
Red Hat is all smoke and mirrors anyway when it comes to security, just
like Microsoft. This just reaffirms that.
Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 12:38 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>What the hell?
>
>
> John. Stop frothing at the mouth already!
>
I'm coarse, I'm not angry.
> Your suggestion of 256MB of r
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>>Real engineering is about doing a good job balancing different issues.
>
>
[...]
> test. Maybe such a vendor understands that you have to ease into things,
> and you can'
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Julien TINNES wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, if it came from PaX the randomization would actually be useful.
>> Sorry, I've just woken up and already explained in another post.
>>
>
> Please, no hard feelings.
>
> Speaking about implementation of the non ex
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>>Your suggestion of 256MB of randomization for the stack SIMPLY IS NOT
>>>ACCEPTABLE for a lot of uses. People on 32-bit archtiectures
In other words, no :)
Here's self-exploiting code to discover its own return address offset
and exploit itself. It'll lend some insight into how this stuff works.
Just a toy.
Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 14:19 -0500, linux-os wrote:
>
>>Gentlemen,
>>
>>Isn't the return addre
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So 0x02020202 is a no-op?
(somebody finally gets why the randomization range must be > the size of
the stack?)
linux-os wrote:
[...]
>> pointing back into that buffer needs the address of that buffer. That
>> buffer is on the stack, which is now ra
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
[...]
>
> Your suggestion of 256MB of randomization for the stack SIMPLY IS NOT
> ACCEPTABLE for a lot of uses. People on 32-bit archtiectures have issues
> with usable virtual memory areas etc.
>
I feel the need to po
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>I feel the need to point something out here.
>>
>>[TEXT][BRK][MMAP---][STACK]
>>
>>Here's a normal layout.
>>
>>[TEXT][BRK][MMAP---][STACK][MMAP--]
>>
>>Is this one any worse?
>
>
> yes.
>
> oracle, db2 an
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Bill Davidsen wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Zan Lynx wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 10:37 -0600, Jesse Pollard wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday 26 January 2005 13:56, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>>>
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Jesse Pollard wrote:
>On
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Paulo Marques wrote:
> John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>> In other words, no :)
>>
>> Here's self-exploiting code to discover its own return address offset
>> and exploit itself. It'll lend some insight int
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Can someone give me a layout of what exactly is up there? I got the
basic idea
K 4G
A 3G
A 2G
A 1G
App has 3G, kernel has 1G at the top of VM on x86 (dunno about x86_64).
So what's the layout of that top 1G? What's it all used for? Is there
some
VM is vs a half gig or a gig that can be freed up.
Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 15:06 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
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>>
>>Can someone give me a layout of what exactly is up there? I got the
>>
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Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * Paulo Marques <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>I really shouldn't feed the trolls, but this must be the most silly
>>piece of code I saw on this mailing list in a very long time (and
>>there have been some good examples over
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Rik van Riel wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>> Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>
>
>>>> Is this one any worse?
>>>
>>> yes.
>>>
>>> oracle, db2 and simi
it for me, and that's important to
me. *I* want to toy with them, but *you* shouldn't have to.
. . . what was my point? Oh yeah. it's possible to deploy huge
randomization and VM splitting and crap without breaking third party
software, see above for explaination.
Linus Torvalds w
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 11:21 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>
>
>>These are the only places mprotect() is mentioned; a visual scan
>>confirms no t
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 11:21 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
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>>
>>
>>
>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>
>>>>I actua
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Jakub Jelinek wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 01:31:46AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>Finally, although an NX stack is nice, you should probably take into
>>account IBM's stack smash protector, ProPolice. Any atta
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Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 12:49:05PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>>The ideas in IBM's ProPolice changes are good and worth
>>>implementing, but the current implementation is bad.
>&g
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>Why not compromise, if possible? 256M of randomization, but move the
>>split up to 3.5/0.5 gig, if possible. I seem to recall seeing an option
>>(though I think it was UML) to do 3.5/0.5 before; and I'm used to "a
>>littl
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So I've noticed, again, much annoyed, that if I rely on -t auto,
horrible horrible things happen.
I have had floppies and compact flash cards that I've done mkfs.vfat to
make fat32 filesystems on (not fat16), and mounting them brings the
thing on as m
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Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 12:33:43AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>I dunno. I can never understand the innards of the kernel devs' minds.
>
>
> filesystem detection isn't hand
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I've been looking at the UDI project[1] and thinking about binary
drivers and the like, and wondering what most peoples' take on these are
and what impact that UDI support would have on the kernel's development.
I know the immediate first reactions ar
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Greg KH wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 11:28:39AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>I've been looking at the UDI project[1] and thinking about binary
>>drivers and the like, and wondering what most peoples' take on
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I've done more thought, here's a small list of advantages on using
binary drivers, specifically considering UDI. You can consider a
different implementation for binary drivers as well, with most of the
same advantages.
- Smaller kernel tree
The k
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Ralf Baechle wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 11:28:39AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>
>>I've been looking at the UDI project[1] and thinking about binary
>>drivers and the like, and wondering what most peoples
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Stop mailing me, I lost interest when I figured out nobody else cared.
Diego Calleja wrote:
> El Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:24:15 -0500,
> John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
>
> [...]
>
>> - Smaller kernel tre
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People are still e-mailing me about this?
Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 12:24:15PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>I've done more thought, here's a small list of advantages on using
>>binary drive
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Peter Chubb wrote:
>>>>>>"John" == John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>
> John> I've done more thought, here's a small list of advantages on
> John> using binary d
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Triffid Hunter wrote:
> i've seen the same problems with a fat32 partition image after an
> unclean shutdown. reading certain files would cause the filesystem to
> spontaneously become read-only with error messages similar to the ones
> you list belo
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OGAWA Hirofumi wrote:
> John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>>It appears dosfsck may not be working quite right. I've taken this into
>>account, hence the second pass after each fsck. This is
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Greetings.
Currently I'm in need of some information about both vanilla and Exec
Shield kernels in regards to markings emitted by the toolchain,
specifically PT_GNU_STACK. I'd like to check my assumptions, in
preparation for possibly making a non-int
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>As I understand, PT_GNU_STACK uses a single marking to control whether a
>>task gets an executable stack and whether ASLR is applied to the
>>executable.
>
>
> you understand wrongly.
>
> PT_GNU_STACK just sets the exec p
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 13:50 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
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>>
>>
>>
>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>
>>>>As
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Brandon Hale wrote:
>>>actually Linus was really against adding non-related things to this
>>>flag. And I think he is right...
>>>
>
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
>
[...]
>
> IMO you have this backwards, John. Rather than having the majority (ES,
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>You need to consider that in the end I'd need PT_GNU_STACK to do
>>everything PaX wants
>
>
> why?
> Why not have independent flags for independent things?
> That way you have both cleanness of design and you don't break a
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>You need to consider that in the end I'd need PT_GNU_STACK to do
>>everything PaX wants
>
>
> why?
> Why not have independent flags for independent things?
> That way you have both cleanness of design and you don't break a
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John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>
> Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>
[...]
Three more notes, then I'll sleep. These notes won't include the two
paragraph long explaination of falling back to PT_GNU_STACK if
PT_PAX_FLAGS isn't th
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 14:07 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
[...]
>>/me shrugs. It's a security blanket for him mostly; he fears automagic
>>security
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How likely is it that I can actually align stuff to 31.5KiB on the
physical disk, i.e. have each block be a track?
Rather than leveraging the track cache, would it be less expensive for
me to simply read in blocks totaling about 16 or 32KiB all at onc
resizing (grow, shrink) while running. I don't
see how to grow left; shrinking from the left is easy enough. Wait,
suddenly I see how to grow left: Superblock at the end, and a bit of
magic. . . .
Robert Hancock wrote:
> John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>> How likely is it th
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Well the LSM mailing list seems to be dead, even the archives stop at
Jan 15 2005. My own mails don't come back to me (I'm subscribed).
So, Which version of Linux will first implement stacking in LSM as per
Serge Hallyn's patches?
Where is the new
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Chris Wright wrote:
> * John Richard Moser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
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>>
>>Well the LSM mailing list seems to be dead, even the archives stop at
>>Jan 15 2005.
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Jeremy Fitzhardinge wrote:
> It would be terribly useful to have some way of
> lseeking /proc//maps to the entry of a particular address. So, if
> you want to find the information about a mapping containing address
> 0x12345678, it would set the fil
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Is there an official Linux Kernel Audit Project to actively and
aggressively security audit all patches going into the Linux Kernel, or
do they just get a cursory scan for bugs and obvious screwups?
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All content of all messages exchanged herein are
you think you want to be; other times this is arbitrary code
execution from inside the kernel and it doesn't matter who the kernel
thinks you are, you're in control.
Oh well, at least they still get fixed when they're seen.
John Richard Moser wrote:
> Is there an official Linux Ker
nough, then you can consider some policy about having the changes
audited FIRST before releasing; for now that's just not feasible.
Dave Jones wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2005 at 02:17:37AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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&
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Diego Calleja wrote:
> El Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:40:06 -0500 John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> escribió:
>
>
>>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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>>
>>On the same line, I've be
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Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2005 at 02:47:32AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
[...]
>
> What exactly do you want to audit for?
>
Security holes
> If it's only for "ordinary" bugs, that'
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Alan Cox wrote:
> On Llu, 2005-01-17 at 07:40, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>On the same line, I've been graphing Ubuntu Linux Security Notices for a
>>while. I've noticed that in the last 5, the number of kernel-r
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Alan Cox wrote:
[...]
> There are also people other than Linus who read every single changeset.
> I do for one.
>
Yes but (off the record) you people can't even keep hysterical raisins
out of fs/proc/base.c :)
[...]
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I was looking at what happens to responsiveness when CPU usagee goes up
and I had an idea about CPU and IO scheduling.
Tasks can be grouped by user and nice (and by scheduler type but let's
leave SCHED_RR and friends out of this). Let's say that use
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Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>>There was a kernel-based randomization patch floating around at some
>>>point, though. I think it's part of PaX. That's the
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Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Split-out portions of PaX (and of ES) don't make sense. [...]
>
>
> which shows that you dont know the exec-shield patch at all, nor t
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>ES has been actively developed since it was poorly implemented in 2003.
>> PaX has been actively developed since it was poorly implemented in
>>2000. PaX has had about 4 times longer to go from a poor
>>proof-of-concept NX
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>I respect you as a kernel developer as long as you're doing preemption
>>and schedulers; but I honestly think PaX is the better technology, and I
>>think it's important that the best security technology be in place.
>
>
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:50:23 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>>Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>>
>>>>Split-out portions of PaX (and of ES) don't make sense.
>>>
>>>they
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:12:05 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>>And why were they merged? Because they showed up in 4-8K chunks.
>
>
>>so you want 90-200 split out patches for GrSecur
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Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * John Richard Moser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>I respect you as a kernel developer as long as you're doing preemption
>>and schedulers; [...]
>
>
> actually, 'preemption a
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Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-01-20 at 13:16 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>Even when the tagging is all automatic, to really deploy a competantly
>>formed system you have to review the results of the automated tag
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Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 01:16:33PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>Granted, you're somewhat more diverse than I pointed out; but I don't
>>keep up on what you're doing. The point w
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Does anyone have a p35u based camera? I have an EZCam Pro p35u based,
still no driver I believe. Anything I can do to help with making one,
like dump some sort of hardware data off it (yeah right)?
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Can someone point me to documentation or give me a small patch to add an
LSM hook to kernel 2.6.10 in fs/namei.c at line 1986:
new_dentry = lookup_create(&nd, 0);
error = PTR_ERR(new_dentry);
if (!IS_ERR(new_dentry)) {
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icebox linux-2.6.10-grs # make
CHK include/linux/version.h
make[1]: `arch/x86_64/kernel/asm-offsets.s' is up to date.
CHK include/linux/compile.h
CHK usr/initramfs_list
GEN .version
CHK include/linux/compile.h
UPD in
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:04:53 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>fs/built-in.o(.text+0xe413): In function `link_path_walk':
>>: undefined reference to `gr_inode_follow_link'
>>fs/
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What systems exist for complex logging and security auditing in the kernel?
For example, let's say I wanted to register my specific code (i.e. a
security module) to log, and adjust to log level N. I also want another
module to log at log level L, whi
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Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately if A depends on B to work at all, you have to put A and
>>> B in as a package.
>>
>>
>>
>> No. That's totally bogus. You can put in B
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>It's kind of like locking your front door, or your back door. If one is
>>locked and the other other is still wide open, then you might as
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Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:37:10 -0500, John Richard Moser
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
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>>
>>
>>Linus Torvalds wrote:
>&g
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Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>>Sure there is. There's the gain that if you lock the front door but not
>>>the back door, somebody who goes door-to-door, opportunis
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J. Bruce Fields wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 02:56:13PM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>>In this context, it doesn't make sense to deploy a protection A or B
>>without the companion protection, which is what I meant.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:56:13 EST, John Richard Moser said:
>
>
>>This puts pressure on the attacker; he has to find a bug, write an
>>exploit, and find an opportunity to use it before a patch is wri
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linux-os wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
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>>
>>
>>
>> Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:37:1
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Bill Davidsen wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
>
>
>>Thus, by having fewer exploits available, fewer successful attacks
>>should happen due to the laws of probability. So the goal becomes
I've set up some stuff on my box where /etc/security/limits.conf
contains the following:
@users softnproc 3072
@users hardnproc 4096
I'm in group users, and a simple fork bomb is easily quashed by this:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ :(){ :|:; };:
bash: fork:
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
>> I've set up some stuff on my box where /etc/security/limits.conf
>> contains the following:
>>
>> @users softnproc 3072
>> @users hardnproc 4096
>>
>> I'm in group users, and a simple fork bomb is easily quashed by this:
>>
>>
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