Ok, I just revisited the "Sarah Sharp" "no more abuse" blogpost, where I
wrote a long comment on the problem she was describing, only to find
that my comment was not there. I felt a certain degree of provocation,
since this was a serious and honest post, without any kind of abuse,
from someone
Hi,
just a short comment.
I think, this snippet shows the key point in this argument:
At 15.07.2013 21:53 CEST +02:00 Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Good lord. So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be
> exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known
> better"?
>
> You
Hi Sarah,
kinda reminds me of... baboons... its natural among mammals i guess...
Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by
dr. Robert Sapolsky)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UMyTnlaMY&feature=share
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> On Fri, 12
Mike,
I do want to partially apologize to Sarah for my first email. That
was really much tongue in cheek to express what happens when things
get too polite
and professional and hope she wasn't too offended. I saw Sarah's last post
http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org/msg47136
> Which means you're likely not invited to the annual mud-wrestling and toga
party where this topic has been scheduled for further discussion.
> This thread and its offspring have been declared dead on LKML, we're in
kernel development mode again.
> -Mike
That's okay. Just wanted to express my
On Mon, 2013-07-22 at 21:42 -0400, Regina Obe wrote:
> Linus,
> I want to start off by saying, though I'm mostly a windows developer,
Which means you're likely not invited to the annual mud-wrestling and
toga party where this topic has been scheduled for further discussion.
This thread and its of
I wanted to take Sarah up on her offer to pay my respects for the
great work she is doing to bring civility to the LKLM community
as detailed in http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794
Linus,
I want to start off by saying, though I'm mostly a windows developer,
I've gained a whole new l
On 07/22/2013 09:02 PM, Luck, Tony wrote:
> Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS:
>
> ...
>
5) Volunteers are under-represented at Kernel Summit
Volunteers are the "dark matter" of Linux Kernel contribution. They are
not the "usual suspects" who nearly all have full time jobs now,
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and
> "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility".
And Daniel Philips replied:
> Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we
> all try to demonstrate the real meaning o
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 02:44:21PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:03:24PM -0400, Kurt H Maier wrote:
>
> Come to KS! You're more than welcome to discuss this with us there.
>
Thanks for the invitation, but those events don't fit into my schedule.
I hope in my absence yo
* Ingo Molnar wrote:
> [...]
>
> ... and now you want to 'shut down' the discussion. With all due
> respect, you started it, you have put out various heavy accusations here
> and elsewhere, so you might as well take responsibility for it and let
> the discussion be brought to a conclusion, w
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:22:56AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >
> > * Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > > >
> > > > * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> >
On 07/15/2013 09:01:56 PM, Joe Perches wrote:
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 11:54 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 16:50:52 -0700 Joe Perches
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 09:42 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > > Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
> > > It even has a
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and
> "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility".
Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we
all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by
prac
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:03:24PM -0400, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:01:27PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >
> > I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. But please, let's continue
> > this discussion at KS, away from the court of public opinion. I would
> > love for this
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:01:27PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. But please, let's continue
> this discussion at KS, away from the court of public opinion. I would
> love for this email to serve as a final summary of my opinion. We can
> use this ema
Am Freitag, 19. Juli 2013, 12:01:27 schrieb Sarah Sharp:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:22:56AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > * Sarah Sharp wrote:
[…]
> "Respect" means different things to different people. Here's a list of
> potentially disrespectful behaviors:
>
> * cussing
> * belittling stat
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 12:01 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Move on, agree to disagree, and let's discuss this at KS.
+1
(Sorry for the reply ;-)
-- Steve
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More majordomo
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:22:56AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> * Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > >
> > > * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, FFS,
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:22:56AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> ... and now you want to 'shut down' the discussion. With all due respect,
> you started it, you have put out various heavy accusations here and
> elsewhere, so you might as well take responsibility for it and let the
> discussion
* Rob Landley wrote:
> On 07/15/2013 10:52:48 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar
> >wrote:
> >> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each
> >other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this.
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:12:45PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > I react very strongly when somebody argues against fixing regressions.
> > Let's just say that there's too many years of baggage that I carry
> > around on that issue..
> >
> > So that is definitely one o
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 02:42:16AM +0200, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> > If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> > who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> > deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go int
* Ingo Molnar wrote:
> [...]
>
> Mistakes in patches and code happen all the time. Linus rarely if ever
> flamed me for _that_ - sh*t happens.
>
> What he flames me for, and what you (with all due respect) still don't
> seem to understand, are _META_ mistakes. Top level maintainer level
> m
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >
> > * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> > > > card". I will r
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:05PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this...
> > >
> > > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional
> > > rant? [My gues
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> To me, being "professional" means treating each other with respect.
Respect is earned, not automatic, and can be lost. A common mistake in
our modern society is to think that everyone deserves respect; they
don't.
We should tolerate each ot
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:07 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> The following statement is not respectful, because it targets the
> person:
>
> "Seriously, Maintainer. Why are you pushing this kind of *crap* code to
> me again? Why the hell did you mark it for stable when it's clearly
> not a bug fix?
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> > > card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 09:30:08AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> The reason why I started the kernel summit over ten years ago
> was because there were certain topics that are much better discussed
> in person, and that over time, if we don't have sufficient face to
> face interactions, the quality
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 02:42:16AM +0200, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant
> mode, then I'm all on y
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
...
> > Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm
> > not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The
> > same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm
The reason why I started the kernel summit over ten years ago
was because there were certain topics that are much better discussed
in person, and that over time, if we don't have sufficient face to
face interactions, the quality of e-mail discussions can start to
become frayed.
One of the reasons
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:18AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> > > people may follow?
Is Nik Wallenda an abuser because he walked across the Grand Canyon on
a tightrope without a safety net, and that's an example that other
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 00:01 -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
>
> > > > So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So
> > > > your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim.
> > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> > > people may follow?
* Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> > card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other minorities.
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the ma
* CAI Qian wrote:
> > On 07/17/2013, CAI Qian wrote:
> > >
> > > On 07/17/2013, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an
> > > > > example that people may follow?
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi_underage_pr
* NeilBrown wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:14:40 +0200 Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> > 1)
> >
> > Your notion that conflicts and insults somehow hurt group cooperation
> > is wrong. It is a scientific fact that open conflict _helps_
> > cooperation while hidden conflict hurts it.
>
> I don't th
uot;Greg Kroah-Hartman"
> , "Dave Jones"
> , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> 发送时间: 星期四, 2013年 7 月 18日 下午 1:03:41
> 主题: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On 07/17/20
On 07/17/2013 09:01 PM, CAI Qian wrote:
>
> Please don't get me wrong. I did neither compare Linus to those child abusers
> nor Thomas to those children. I simply pointed out there is also some common
> sense need to consider.
>
Actually, you did.
-hpa
--
To unsubscribe from this list
n" , "Dave Jones" ,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton" ,
> "stable" ,
> "Darren Hart"
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:47:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16
n" , "Dave Jones" ,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton" ,
> "stable" ,
> "Darren Hart"
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:47:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16
> If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant
> mode, then I'm all on your side.
Well, the one that comes to mind is Alan Cox and the T
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16 -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So
> > your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim.
> Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> people may follow?
> http://en.wikipe
ones" , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:42:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > On Mo
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this...
> >
> > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional
> > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing.
> > That said, I would be intere
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> > > why there's no way you can revert their m
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:14:40 +0200 Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 1)
>
> Your notion that conflicts and insults somehow hurt group cooperation is
> wrong. It is a scientific fact that open conflict _helps_ cooperation
> while hidden conflict hurts it.
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:14:49AM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM,
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless
> > > maintainers why there's no way you can revert their merge that
> >
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Linus Torvalds
wrote:
>
> Google "management by perkele".
Actually, not even our former president mr. Kekkonen never went quite
as far using this method. I think something along the lines of
legendary 'saatanan tunarit' would suffice next time :)
--
Janne
--
To
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 04:15:55PM -0700, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> "Your code breaks the build for every platform. Would you please kindly
> consider fixing it ?"
Something like this: https://lists.launchpad.net/ac100/msg01040.html
"small typo here."
Marc, was obviously dripping with sarcasm when
ck" , "Greg Kroah-Hartman"
> , "Dave Jones"
> , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:50:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can we please make this int
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:22:38PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
> > suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the other side.
> > I had slashdot discussing
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:12:45PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> I react very strongly when somebody argues against fixing regressions.
> Let's just say that there's too many years of baggage that I carry
> around on that issue..
>
> So that is definitely one of the things that make me go ballist
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
> suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the other side.
> I had slashdot discussing my abusive relationship with my wife and
> kids thanks to Sarah's comm
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 20:02 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>
>> Umm. Notice how the "Joseph" I replied to had deleted all the comments he
>> wrote?
>
> Sorry, that completely escaped me.
>
>> That should tell you something. I smacked down a t
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 18:37 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Rusty Russell wrote:
> >>
> >> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
> >
> > This one crosses the line. There's no non-offensive way to tell a geek
> > "you are wrong", but this isn't even trying. Bad Linus!
>
> Yo
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 20:02 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> >
> > In fact, even in the pull request that's referenced here, Linus, you
> > were polite but firm in your first two responses. When you're perfectly
> > capable of doing that, why
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>
> In fact, even in the pull request that's referenced here, Linus, you
> were polite but firm in your first two responses. When you're perfectly
> capable of doing that, why spoil it by adding insults?
Umm. Notice how the "Joseph" I replied
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:50 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:43:57PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
[...]
> > > Keep in mind that there are some cultures where even pointing out a
> > > technical flaw in code might considered bringing deep shame on the
> > > engineer and their co
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 18:37 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Emotions aren't bad. Quite the reverse.
Spock and Dr. Sheldon Cooper strongly disagree.
-- Steve
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On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Rusty Russell wrote:
>>
>> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
>
> This one crosses the line. There's no non-offensive way to tell a geek
> "you are wrong", but this isn't even trying. Bad Linus!
You know what? Not my proudest moment. I was really upset.
But that said,
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:50:08 -0400 Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> The other question where I think you and Linus differ is the belief
> whether polite messages of the form, "it's really rude to break the
> kernel ABI, I would rather prefer if you wouldn't do that" are as
> effective at establishing commu
Sarah Sharp writes:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:22:14PM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:
> Linus is complaining about code here, and the effects of merging bad
> code on his own tree. I personally have no qualms with this type of
> harsh email, because it focuses on the code, not the person.
>
> I do
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:50 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> Hopefully this helps to clarify the discussion. I'm trying rather
> purposely not take one side or another, but instead trying to
> articulate what I think I've been hearing people say (over, and over,
> and over again, on this very long m
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:43:57PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> I don't think we disagree on this, Ted. I've stated that I view
> personal attacks and insults negatively, and I don't see an issue with
> pointing out that code is bad. I think you're agreeing with me on this.
Perhaps I misundrestoo
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> I'll admit that when I first started sending patches to LKML, I was
> terrified. Not because I was afraid of being scolded, but because I was
> afraid that what I sent wasn't good. It was a true judgment of my work.
> I was prettified. Sur
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
>
> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.
I never said it was. But no matter what we do, people *will* be
offended. Can't help that.
> Some people simply don't care if a
> verbal tirade
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> baseline of "good" behavior is. We need to define what behavior we want
> from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" and
> "don't break userspace
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> > Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> > comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others
> > simply don't give a shit
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others
> simply don't give a shit. So we need to figure out how to meet
> somewhere in the middle, in orde
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 05:27:04PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > "Your code is crap" is considered unprofessional, while
> > > "Let's leverage my fifth grade nephew's capabilities to assist you in
> > > fixing the code" is perfectly p
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:18:21AM +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > I *hate* both direct personal insults and indirect personal insults.
> > Neither should be acceptable in our community.
> >
> > As I stated in an email to Rusty, what I
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> I *hate* both direct personal insults and indirect personal insults.
> Neither should be acceptable in our community.
>
> As I stated in an email to Rusty, what I'm objecting to here is not
> kernel developers criticizing code. I'm ob
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:27:09 +0400 James Bottomley
wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > >
> > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > > we would solve anything, but i
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
>
> In fact, I didn't say what I really wanted to say in that reply to the
> reporter
> and that evidently confused you, which only made me think it was better to be
> more careful about sending replies to regression reports when Linus is
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:08:56PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Rusty hit the nail on the head here. I want everyone (including Linus)
> to be harsh with code but gentle with people.
Just as a side note Sarah, in some cultures/languages, "I want" is
extremely impolite, almost insulting to your int
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 02:23:46 PM Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > I do, however, object when the verbal abuse shifts from being directed
> > at code to being directed at *people*. For example, Linus chose to
> > curse at Mauro [2] and Rafa
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> "Your code is crap" is considered unprofessional, while
> > "Let's leverage my fifth grade nephew's capabilities to assist you in
> > fixing the code" is perfectly professional, somehow. That's more
> > often than not an unacceptable a
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:08 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
>
> "How long have you been a maintainer? And you *still* haven't learnt the
> first rule of kernel maintenance?"
>
> "Shut up, Mauro. And I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious
> garbage and idiocy f
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > >
> > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > > we would solve anything,
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> I do, however, object when the verbal abuse shifts from being directed
> at code to being directed at *people*. For example, Linus chose to
> curse at Mauro [2] and Rafael [3], rather than their code:
Umm. Because it was actually the person
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:14:51AM +0200, Olivier Galibert wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 9:32 AM, David Lang wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >
> >> The people who want to work together in a civil manner should get
> >> together and create a "Kernel maintainer's code of cond
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:22:14PM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:
> Linus Torvalds writes:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> >>
> >> BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
> >> his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his ma
Am Montag, 15. Juli 2013, 15:50:03 schrieb Sarah Sharp:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 03:38:42PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt
> > wrote:
> > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > > we would solve anything, but
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >
> > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > we would solve anything, but it certainly would be a fun segment to
> > watch :-)
>
> I think we sh
Hi Darren,
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:40:15AM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:13 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > It can seem counter-producting first (as Sarah thinks) but I think that
> > the competent people find their way in this simply because they're backed
> > up by o
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 12:32:53AM -0700, David Lang wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> People do need to be called out on their mistakes. In companies, if
> you don't fire managers who do the wrong thing soon enough, it can
> ruin the company. In kernel development, you have a v
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very
> different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on
> the tables? That could be fun. And I'm serious, although we might want
> to limit the size of the fruit to smaller berries ;)
I thi
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:13 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> It can seem counter-producting first (as Sarah thinks) but I think that
> the competent people find their way in this simply because they're backed
> up by other ones. That's how I think we get that number of skilled people
> at the top of
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:09 -0700, Kees Cook wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:30:45PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > > Professional behavior should b
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:30:45PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > Professional behavior should be the default.
>
> So, what does "professional" mean? A profe
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:30 +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > Professional behavior should be the default.
>
> So, what does "professional" mean? A professional
On 07/15/2013 02:07 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.
>
> I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers than
> random people on the list. I expect more from them, and conversely
> I'll be a lot more upset when they do so
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> Professional behavior should be the default.
So, what does "professional" mean? A professional is paid for his work, an
amateur isn't. But this doesn't say anything ab
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 9:32 AM, David Lang wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
>> The people who want to work together in a civil manner should get
>> together and create a "Kernel maintainer's code of conduct" that
>> outlines what they expect from fellow kernel developers. The p
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
The people who want to work together in a civil manner should get
together and create a "Kernel maintainer's code of conduct" that
outlines what they expect from fellow kernel developers. The people who
want to continue acting "unprofessionally" should do
Hi Neil,
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:40:36AM +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:17:27 +0200 Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > Communication works two ways.
>
> I understand that to mean (at least) that for communication, every message
> must be both sent and received. So when constructin
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