2008/8/11 Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My point is that lilypond-user reading users won't get used to it. Many of
> them are newcomers and beginners. They don't usually follow the
> conversations on the list.
>
> Perhaps it's because of my software developer experience, but
On di, 2008-08-12 at 20:08 +0200, James E. Bailey wrote:
> And am I the only one who thinks of cars seeing MG?
Nope, no cars here.
:-)
--
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien | http://www.lilypond.org
___
Starting point -
On 12/08 18:11:15, Nicholas Wastell wrote:
[ in response to Graham ]
> If you don't like the rtfm questions, don't answer them. There are,
> fortunately, some folks on the list with an ounce of patience and
> good manners.
Hm. Gee, that was subtle. :)
Valentin (quite reaso
David Bobroff wrote:
... much cool stuff elided...
who use it, the better. If we start kicking people in the teeth for
every "stupid" question or, more importantly, for the *first* "stupid"
question, I suspect LilyPond will have a smaller set of users.
Well, how many questions do we have to wa
2008/8/13 Valentin Villenave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I know I should probably not feed the troll here, but let me remind
> you that there's also
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user-fr ; last time I
> checked it was still safe from big evil Graham (if anything).
Well, that's an exa
I've watched this thread from the sidelines and up to now have remained
silent as I didn't want to throw gasoline on a potential flame war.
That is not my intent now, either.
I do have to say that I agree with Nicholas, however.
Nicholas Wastell wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:23:56 +0200 "Valenti
Nicholas Wastell wrote Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:41 AM
The Lilypond lists have an air of exclusivity which is already very
intimidating to newcomers. Overtly abrasive attitude and widespread use
of jargon and abbreviations are rife. What's acceptable and amusing
between experienced users
2008/8/13 Nicholas Wastell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My point is that if he doesn't like the newbie stuff in -user, he should just
> keep away. The newbie stuff has to go somewhere; Graham wouldn't be upset by
> it and the list would be a more welcoming place. I no longer post my queries
> on he
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:23:56 +0200
"Valentin Villenave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/8/12 Nicholas Wastell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > If you don't like the rtfm questions, don't answer them. There
> > are, fortunately, some folks on the list with an ounce of patience
> > and good manners.
>
See, Carl, banter -is- still used in the Lily community ;)
Trevor
- Original Message -
From: "Valentin Villenave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Graham Percival" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lilypond"
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:24 AM
Su
2008/8/13 Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Then you need to RTFML. Especially things from me. :) - Graham
Nah, I decided to skip all these months ago -- actually from the day
you referred to me as a Callifornia Valley Girl :-)
As a matter of fact, I've even configured a mail filter whic
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:07:51 +0200
"Valentin Villenave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Except for very rare cases (some questions about MacOS10.5, I think),
> I haven't seen /any/ one-line RTFM answer on any of these lists for
> months years.
Then you need to RTFML. Especially things from me. :)
Ralph Palmer wrote:
Anyone else remember Booker T. and the . . . ?
In any case, it might make sense to use at least some of the acronyms
judiciously. There is a wide variety of users on this list, and many
of the discussions are, while not exclusive, at least aimed at a
particular audience. I
2008/8/12 Patrick Horgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I agree only because it gives the appearance of a hostile atmosphere on the
> lilypond user's list which I know is not the truth. A one line RTFM answer
> is not good communication.
Except for very rare cases (some questions about MacOS10.5, I thin
Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) wrote:
I must note however that I strongly disagree with the approach "you
must read the manual first". Honestly, when you buy an house-hold
appliance you first read the manual? I doubt. For making the first cup
of coffee you won't read the manual. Later, when you
Sure, that´s right!
2008/8/12 Ralph Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I agree, Dominic. It wasn't intended to be insular. On the other hand, when
> someone is responding to a question about Scheme or about "deep" (I don't
> even know the correct term) code, I don't see how one can, or if one should
>
I agree, Dominic. It wasn't intended to be insular. On the other hand, when
someone is responding to a question about Scheme or about "deep" (I don't
even know the correct term) code, I don't see how one can, or if one should
try to, make the discussion intelligible to a newbie.
Ralph
On Tue, Aug
2008/8/12 Ralph Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Anyone else remember Booker T. and the . . . ?
>
> In any case, it might make sense to use at least some of the acronyms
> judiciously. There is a wide variety of users on this list, and many of the
> discussions are, while not exclusive, at least aimed
Anyone else remember Booker T. and the . . . ?
In any case, it might make sense to use at least some of the acronyms
judiciously. There is a wide variety of users on this list, and many of the
discussions are, while not exclusive, at least aimed at a particular
audience. I don't see why it wouldn'
Actually, MG is a state of brazil, to me.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:08 PM, James E. Bailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> no, AU is audio unit. It's a type of plugin for core audio on macintosh
> computers.
>
> And am I the only one who thinks of cars seeing MG?
>
>
--
Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL P
2008/8/12 Nicholas Wastell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> If you don't like the rtfm questions, don't answer them. There are,
> fortunately, some folks on the list with an ounce of patience and good
> manners.
Graham will probably not answer that, but... if you had been following
discussions on -user
no, AU is audio unit. It's a type of plugin for core audio on
macintosh computers.
And am I the only one who thinks of cars seeing MG?
Am 12.08.2008 um 19:43 schrieb Tomas Valusek:
Hello,
BTW, AU is what? An Astronomical Unit??? IR is commonly recognized
is InfraRed :-))) IMHO there shou
Hello,
BTW, AU is what? An Astronomical Unit??? IR is commonly recognized is
InfraRed :-))) IMHO there should be some sort of FAQ :-))) And in the
end - PCMCIA (People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms) ... :-)))
Tomas Valusek
Valentin Villenave napsal(a):
2008/8/11 Bertalan Fodor (
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:00:51 -0700
Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Having spent well over a hundred hours on such [stupid, newbie rtfm]
> idiodicies in the past four years, I have no patience left for them.
Well, you don't say. I've no doubt you've done the Lilypond project a great
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:30:43 +0200
"Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I must note however that I strongly disagree with the approach "you
> must read the manual first". Honestly, when you buy an house-hold
> appliance you first read the manual? I doubt. For making the fir
2008/8/11 Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My point is that lilypond-user reading users won't get used to it. Many of
> them are newcomers and beginners. They don't usually follow the
> conversations on the list.
Referring to NRx.x is still okay when you're talking to devs and
Good point, but RTFM answers are generally not the most interesting
part of any maillist archive.
Hahah, RTFM is also an acronym, and not by coincidence. It expresses
exactly what I hate in abbreviations. Poor beginner users who really
doesn't know what they want to ask (because they have j
Valentin Villenave wrote:
LearnMan
NotRef
IntRef
MusGloss
SnipList
These don't provide any advantage. They are still incomprehensible for
newcomers and they are
longer to write and harder to remember for the rest of us.
/Mats
___
lilypond-u
2008/8/11 Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Then why not call it human? For example: Guide and Reference.
> Abbreviations are evil, because they are always clear and unambigous for
> someone who uses them or used them recently, but they confuse newcomers,
> take time and mental e
Then why not call it human? For example: Guide and Reference.
Abbreviations are evil, because they are always clear and unambigous for
someone who uses them or used them recently, but they confuse newcomers,
take time and mental energy to decode for not so regular uses, and annoy
me :-)
Not t
I understand your position very well, Graham. But we should also try
to improve the way of helping via the mailing list to convince
newcomers of the power of LilyPond.
What about providing a signature to the mailing list explaining these
abbreviations? I don´t know if this is possible, but it coul
Graham Percival wrote:
In a few months, these will be second nature. There's no point
typing out "please see the Notation Reference 1.2.3" every time.
NR 1.2.3 is unambiguous, and saves time for people who spend time
answering rtfm questions.
But it may still cause lots of confusion to the
What part of "in a few months" was unclear? In a few months, once
2.12 is out and the only (stable) docs refer to LM and NR, it will
be second nature.
If anybody doesn't understand what these two letter acronyms refer
to, they clearly haven't ready LM 1.2, and therefore I have
absolutely *no* sym
Not for me :-)
Actually LM is ambiguous. It seems that lot of people interprets that as
LilyPond Manual.
I hate TLA-s a lot and will always hate them.
Bert
Graham Percival wrote:
In a few months, these will be second nature. There's no point
typing out "please see the Notation Reference 1.2
In a few months, these will be second nature. There's no point
typing out "please see the Notation Reference 1.2.3" every time.
NR 1.2.3 is unambiguous, and saves time for people who spend time
answering rtfm questions.
Cheers,
- Graham
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:36:07 +0200
"Bertalan Fodor (LilyPo
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