Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-07 Thread Pierre Joye
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Lester Caine wrote: > People who are building critical systems are in a position to make a choice, > and THEY will not be using windows. But PHP was origianlly 'Personal Home > Page' and I am sure that as many people are using PHP because of the > 'personal' elemen

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-07 Thread Pierre Joye
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Rasmus wrote: > On 06/06/2011 08:38 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > And much like Apache, I don't consider it our job to do binary builds > for people. It is very nice that a few people have volunteered to build > Windows binaries and they are available on windows.php.ne

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Rasmus wrote: On 06/06/2011 08:38 PM, Lester Caine wrote: Stas Malyshev wrote: For many of us, the 5.2 branch HAS been the 'long term stability' version of PHP Any version beyond it's support period would be "long term stability" (as in "pining for the fjords" stability) by definition. If som

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread David Muir
On 07/06/11 01:49, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > >> Currently off the shelf, 5.2.17 is the 'old stable' but for some >> windows users >> it IS the only available version. Changing the rest of the >> infrastructure to > > 5.2.17 is unsupported. It is announced on php.net. Now, some Windows > users, d

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Rasmus
On 06/06/2011 08:38 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Stas Malyshev wrote: >>> For many of us, the 5.2 branch HAS been the 'long term stability' >>> version of PHP >> >> Any version beyond it's support period would be "long term stability" >> (as in "pining for the fjords" stability) by definition. If some

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Stas Malyshev wrote: For many of us, the 5.2 branch HAS been the 'long term stability' version of PHP Any version beyond it's support period would be "long term stability" (as in "pining for the fjords" stability) by definition. If somebody want to backport patches and provide builds for it for

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Christopher Jones
On 06/05/2011 03:27 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: This is a prime example of what we're talking about. Several have expressed a desire to follow an Ubuntu style of branching instead of the style proposed in said RFC. This is a core issue, so the RFC is certainly not ready to adopt. So does this re

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! For many of us, the 5.2 branch HAS been the 'long term stability' version of PHP Any version beyond it's support period would be "long term stability" (as in "pining for the fjords" stability) by definition. If somebody want to backport patches and provide builds for it for any period he

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! The reason for the connection is simple ... currently PHP5.2 IS the LTS version for MANY users who are running windows based apache servers. Which is the only If that's what you mean by LTS, then discussing it is meaningless, as nothing here depends on us - the users

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! The reason for the connection is simple ... currently PHP5.2 IS the LTS version for MANY users who are running windows based apache servers. Which is the only If that's what you mean by LTS, then discussing it is meaningless, as nothing here depends on us - the users will do it regardless

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Stas Malyshev wrote: As much as I appreciate everybody taking this opportunity to vent about their troubles with Apache on Windows, could we not hijack this topic - which was about release management and in particular LTS - and turn it into Apache on Windows topic? We can have separate Apache on

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-06 Thread Matthew Weier O'Phinney
On 2011-06-06, Chad Fulton wrote: > So, I would advocate a "white list" of core devs for formal voting (of > which, for example, I would not be a member). I think this mailing > list has grown sufficiently that "public opinion" can be gauged from > here: everyone can write their opinion without gi

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-06 Thread Chad Fulton
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:27 PM, dukeofgaming wrote: > > I have a little proposition here. > > I'm not —at least currently— known for any app or framework, but I'd like my > voice to count, that is, if and only if the rest of the community thinks I > make sane arguments that are worth considering.

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! A PHP developers view on windows installation: it's screwed as hell right now. I use apache + php for my developing envoirment on Windows 7. Guys - I spend 1.5, freaking 1.5 hours setting up apache + php!!! essentially i just As much as I appreciate everybody taking this opportunity to ven

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-06 Thread dukeofgaming
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > I'd to go with a 60% for language syntax, 50+1 for new exts or sapis. > Other question is who can vote. For one, I like to have external > people being able to vote, like frameworks/apps lead developers as > well as @php.net in general (docs

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Arvids Godjuks
Hello. A PHP developers view on windows installation: it's screwed as hell right now. I use apache + php for my developing envoirment on Windows 7. Guys - I spend 1.5, freaking 1.5 hours setting up apache + php!!! essentially i just had to download and try multiple binaries for windows to find the

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Christopher Jones
On 06/06/2011 01:48 AM, Tom Samplonius wrote: So RHEL6 will have whatever PHP that was around, then, which I hope is PHP 5.3 (I don't have any RHEL6 servers yet). So RHEL6 will always be PHP5.3.x based. RHEL 6.0's php-* packages are PHP 5.3.2. RHEL 6.1's uses PHP 5.3.3. RHEL 5.6 h

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! Media Temple's Grid servers still default to PHP 4.4.9. With the option of using 5.2.16, but you have to explicitly tell it to use that version in your .htaccess file. This is pretty bad, but LTS would only make this problem worse - imagine if 4.4 were LTS, they'd say "oh, we are install

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: However I ask you, strongly, now to stop to pollute this thread with totally unrelated topics. Thanks for your understanding. This is something of a rather important point since PHP has always been very strongly related to Apache so it is totally related to a discussion of m

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > PERHAPS such important information could be made available to REAL USERS? > There has never been any public statement to that effect! For the 10th time, please stop to uppercase every 2nd word. > Until you came on the scene I had never even

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Bradley Proctor
Media Temple's Grid servers still default to PHP 4.4.9. With the option of using 5.2.16, but you have to explicitly tell it to use that version in your .htaccess file. On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 2:03 PM, John Crenshaw wrote: > > From: David Muir [mailto:davidkm...@gmail.com] > > On 06/06/11 17:48, T

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: > Please can you provide a link where THAT statement is made! Chech the php windows internals list archive as well as the httpd devel ones. This statement has been written numerous times in both lists. PERHAPS such important information could be made available to REAL USERS

RE: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread John Crenshaw
From: David Muir [mailto:davidkm...@gmail.com] On 06/06/11 17:48, Tom Samplonius wrote: >> Currently - A lot of ISP's are 'stuck' with PHP5.2 or earlier simply > I don't know if this is really the case. The problem is much larger than most of us would probably like to believe. Some of the

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Ferenc Kovacs
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Pierre Joye wrote: > >> >>> > http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi >>> > Win32 Binary IS one of the few binaries Apache supply!!! Some >>> government >>> > sites will ONLY allow that version to be installed:( >>> > PHP5.2 installs hav

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Please can you provide a link where THAT statement is made! Chech the php windows internals list archive as well as the httpd devel ones. This statement has been written numerous times in both lists. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Developme

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: > http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi > Win32 Binary IS one of the few binaries Apache supply!!! Some government > sites will ONLY allow that version to be installed:( > PHP5.2 installs have then been approved for use with the official apache > install, so are you sa

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > > http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi > Win32 Binary IS one of the few binaries Apache supply!!! Some government > sites will ONLY allow that version to be installed :( > PHP5.2 installs have then been approved for use with the official

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! Currently off the shelf, 5.2.17 is the 'old stable' but for some windows users it IS the only available version. Changing the rest of the infrastructure to 5.2.17 is unsupported. It is announced on php.net. Now, some Windows users, due to certain choices, may have to run this version - bu

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: *WE* recommend using Apachelounge builds of apache, but some sites simply > will not use that as it is not the recommended build from Apache. They > religiously follow the rules printed on the official distributions and the > download page is an official document as far as

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-06 Thread Matthew Weier O'Phinney
e answered before we let this > RFC govern how we do feature definition. > > Zeev > > > -Original Message- > > From: Stas Malyshev [mailto:smalys...@sugarcrm.com] > > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 11:17 PM > > To: Zeev Suraski > > Cc: Pierre Joye; PHP Internals

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Pierre Joye wrote: >> >> We use apache and 5.3 smoothly and with the recent addition of rwlock >> in apc on windows, it runs even better and faster. >> >> I'm sorry but unless you provide bugs report with clear reproduce >> where we can actuall

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: We use apache and 5.3 smoothly and with the recent addition of rwlock in apc on windows, it runs even better and faster. I'm sorry but unless you provide bugs report with clear reproduce where we can actually try to help you, there is no chance to get anywhere with this kind o

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Pierre Joye wrote: >>> >>> If you can convince the IT departments of some of the archaic council >>> sites >>> >  I am having to deal with that they do not have to stress test every >>> > part of >>> >  a new system ... It's exactly the same ar

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread David Muir
On 06/06/11 07:27, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > >> On 2011-06-05, Pierre Joye wrote: >>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Philip Olson >>> wrote: > I'd to say that I'm very happy to finally see such discussions > happening, let sort the base (99% is done by our existing RFC about > rel

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: If you can convince the IT departments of some of the archaic council sites > I am having to deal with that they do not have to stress test every part of > a new system ... It's exactly the same argument FROM them as you are giving > below as to why we should NOT provide sup

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread David Muir
On 06/06/11 17:48, Tom Samplonius wrote: >> Currently - A lot of ISP's are 'stuck' with PHP5.2 or earlier simply > I don't know if this is really the case. I work in this industry, and most > of the small to mid hosting company's use cPanel or Plesk, and both include > PHP 5.3. I've personall

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > If you can convince the IT departments of some of the archaic council sites > I am having to deal with that they do not have to stress test every part of > a new system ... It's exactly the same argument FROM them as you are giving > below as

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Pierre Joye wrote: On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Stas Malyshev wrote: >> >>> changes. While that almost certainly is due to the poor way that the >>> some of the >>> moves were documented, a version of 5.2 is still a preferred base for >>> some? And >>> this sho

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lars Schultz
Am 06.06.2011 13:41, schrieb Pierre Joye: You cannot say that any kind of bugs prevent the waste majority to update from a dead cow to the current stable branch. And I'm not sure if it is actually a bug or a badly documented setting. Its not the bug that prevents moving forward but the fix of i

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
You cannot say that any kind of bugs prevent the waste majority to update from a dead cow to the current stable branch. And I'm not sure if it is actually a bug or a badly documented setting. On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Lars Schultz wrote: > Am 06.06.2011 12:46, schrieb Pierre Joye: >> >> The

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lars Schultz
Am 06.06.2011 12:46, schrieb Pierre Joye: There is no reason not to update, absolutely none. There is: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=49189 Which "fixes" the issue by removing a feature and introducing a BC-Break. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit:

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Pierre Joye
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Stas Malyshev wrote: >> >>> changes. While that almost certainly is due to the poor way that the >>> some of the >>> moves were documented, a version of 5.2 is still a preferred base for >>> some? And >>> this should perhaps be viewed as the c

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Stas Malyshev wrote: changes. While that almost certainly is due to the poor way that the some of the moves were documented, a version of 5.2 is still a preferred base for some? And this should perhaps be viewed as the current LTS branch? Certainly for windows But a) it is not, since we don't

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Tom Samplonius
> Currently - A lot of ISP's are 'stuck' with PHP5.2 or earlier simply I don't know if this is really the case. I work in this industry, and most of the small to mid hosting company's use cPanel or Plesk, and both include PHP 5.3. I've personally seen very few issues moving from older PHP 5.

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! changes. While that almost certainly is due to the poor way that the some of the moves were documented, a version of 5.2 is still a preferred base for some? And this should perhaps be viewed as the current LTS branch? Certainly for windows But a) it is not, since we don't support it. Someb

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-06 Thread Lester Caine
Stas Malyshev wrote: Speaking of which, I personally don't understand how LTS thing would work in PHP. Currently - A lot of ISP's are 'stuck' with PHP5.2 or earlier simply because pushing 5.3 caused problems/complaints from users due to the nature of the changes. While that almost certainly i

[PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-06 Thread Zeev Suraski
> -Original Message- > From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 1:46 AM > To: Zeev Suraski > Cc: PHP Internals > Subject: Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on > the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving f

Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Am 05.06.2011 22:05, schrieb Zeev Suraski: > - There wasn't sufficient time, or nearly any time at all - between when > Brian pulled it off the attic, and when a vote was called. If my proposal is > accepted, there'll have to be at least two weeks between when a clearly > marked [RFC] email hit

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
take #4.. Hmmm, not sure I like the comparison (with Egypt). > Major parts in the process weren't executed properly (I've spelled them out > so I won't repeat them). > It's quite possible that if they were executed properly, we'd have different > results. Perhaps not, maybe even probably

[PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Zeev Suraski
[resending as the list appears to reject bit.ly URLs] > As I agree on everything you wrote here, I don't feel like we need to redo it. > The votes result is pretty clear, despite 2-3 people not willing to > vote for whatever reasons: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote Take a

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-05 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! On 2011-06-05, Pierre Joye wrote: On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Philip Olson wrote: I'd to say that I'm very happy to finally see such discussions happening, let sort the base (99% is done by our existing RFC about release process, let adopt it already!) and move on with 5.4. This i

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
hi Zeev, On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > Pierre, > > I'm happy that we agree pretty much completely about the clarifications & > updates needed for the RFC. Same here :) > I do however want to point out that the problematic way the short array > syntax RFC was executed

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > I'm fine if the entire 'Feature selection and development' part goes out of > the RFC, but if there's any reference to how features are determined, we'd > better get it right. Getting it totally out makes little sense as it brings us to the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread David Soria Parra
On 2011-06-05, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Philip Olson wrote: > >>> I'd to say that I'm very happy to finally see such discussions >>> happening, let sort the base (99% is done by our existing RFC about >>> release process, let adopt it already!) and move on with 5.4. >>

[PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Zeev Suraski
e- > From: Stas Malyshev [mailto:smalys...@sugarcrm.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 11:17 PM > To: Zeev Suraski > Cc: Pierre Joye; PHP Internals > Subject: Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on > the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)) >

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! I'd still like to hear from others what they think about my proposal. I'd like to update the Release Process RFC with these suggestions if people like them. I think these voting process additions totally make sense. But I am not sure it makes sense to put everything in one release RFC. Th

[PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Zeev Suraski
For those of you who lost these proposals in the flood of RFC related emails of recent days, here they are again: --- First, we need to make sure that the RFC is properly evaluated by the members of internals@, and that there's enough time for the RFC to be discussed here on the list. As Phil

[PHP-DEV] RE: Voting Process (was: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward))

2011-06-05 Thread Zeev Suraski
Pierre, I'm happy that we agree pretty much completely about the clarifications & updates needed for the RFC. I do however want to point out that the problematic way the short array syntax RFC was executed was the key reason that made me feel these updates were in fact necessary - I don't thin

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Philip Olson wrote: >> I'd to say that I'm very happy to finally see such discussions >> happening, let sort the base (99% is done by our existing RFC about >> release process, let adopt it already!) and move on with 5.4. > > > This is a prime example of what we're

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Hannes Magnusson wrote: > On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 17:20, Pierre Joye wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: >> >> >>> Some of you may have followed the twitter conversation that Pierre and I >>> had at the end of last week;  In my opinion, t

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Philip Olson
On Jun 5, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > I'd to say that I'm very happy to finally see such discussions > happening, let sort the base (99% is done by our existing RFC about > release process, let adopt it already!) and move on with 5.4. This is a prime example of what we're talking abo

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Hannes Magnusson
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 17:20, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > >> Some of you may have followed the twitter conversation that Pierre and I had >> at the end of last week;  In my opinion, this dry (or partially wet) run >> that we had in the last few d

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Pierre Joye
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > Some of you may have followed the twitter conversation that Pierre and I had > at the end of last week;  In my opinion, this dry (or partially wet) run that > we had in the last few days of a voting process pointed to several > deficiencie

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread Zeev Suraski
> On Jun 4, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Stas Malyshev > wrote: > > > >> [VOTE] is a good idea, let's make it [VOTE]. > >> > >>> There is no plugin used for it yet, and that's my problem with it. > >> > >> Well, votes aren't announced yet either :)

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-05 Thread John Coggeshall
On Jun 3, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: - a call to vote is easily drowned out on the ML with all the noise I read the same ML as you do :) Using threaded email client it is very easy to separate new threads and see calls for votes. That is

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! How does it work? Do you need write permission to the page it is located on, or is it enough to have login? Login's enough. There is also an ability to designate admins (see the docs) which can edit the votes, but I'm not sure if it's needed for user-based vote. How do you differentia

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Hannes Magnusson
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 19:58, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > >> Please keep them in the wiki as we planed to do. THere are plugins and >> it is very easy to manage, allows per section voting etc. > > I've installed voting plugin, see description here: > > http://www.dokuwiki.org/plugin:doodle2 > > a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Pierre Joye
right, that's the one I was willing to install as well, great that you did it! Thanks :) On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > >> Please keep them in the wiki as we planed to do. THere are plugins and >> it is very easy to manage, allows per section voting etc. > > I've ins

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! Please keep them in the wiki as we planed to do. THere are plugins and it is very easy to manage, allows per section voting etc. I've installed voting plugin, see description here: http://www.dokuwiki.org/plugin:doodle2 and example how it looks here at the end (login required to vote):

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Pierre Joye
hi Philip, On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Philip Olson wrote: >  - RFC: Request For Comments Thanks for the reminder. But RFC got approved at some point as well. See the numerous W3C RFCs for some known examples. > And while doing so, not revert to a vote (RFV?) simply because discussing a >

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread John Crenshaw
04, 2011 9:30 AM To: Pierre Joye Cc: Stas Malyshev; Derick Rethans; PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward) On Jun 4, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > &g

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Philip Olson
On Jun 4, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > >> [VOTE] is a good idea, let's make it [VOTE]. >> >>> There is no plugin used for it yet, and that's my problem with it. >> >> Well, votes aren't announced yet either :) I'll try to get it

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-04 Thread Pierre Joye
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > [VOTE] is a good idea, let's make it [VOTE]. > >> There is no plugin used for it yet, and that's my problem with it. > > Well, votes aren't announced yet either :) I'll try to get it set up ASAP > and see how it works, before announcing the v

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! That is subjective. And even with a threaded client, if there are 80+ new messages then the call for vote is drowned out. *Requiring* There was never 80+ new messages on different topics on the list. There are 3-4 topics max, if you not count commit messages. Each of them can contain doz

Re: [PHP-DEV] Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread dukeofgaming
How about a separate email topic dedicated to voting?, that would reduce the signal to noise ratio for votes (and increase it for opinions). Regards, David On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Martin Scotta wrote: > Martin Scotta > > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 5:16 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > hi D

Re: [PHP-DEV] Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Martin Scotta
Martin Scotta On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 5:16 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > hi Derick, > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > > > >> I'd like to set up a vote for the undecided TODO features on > >> wiki.php.net, anybody could help me w

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Derick Rethans
On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > > - a call to vote is easily drowned out on the ML with all the noise > > I read the same ML as you do :) Using threaded email client it is very > easy to separate new threads and see calls for votes. That is subjective. And even with a threaded client

Re: [PHP-DEV] Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Pierre Joye
hi Derick, On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > >> I'd like to set up a vote for the undecided TODO features on >> wiki.php.net, anybody could help me with setting up the voting module >> there if there's such thing on the wiki? Or set

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! - a call to vote is easily drowned out on the ML with all the noise I read the same ML as you do :) Using threaded email client it is very easy to separate new threads and see calls for votes. Also, voting on ML does not solve the "drowning out" problem, it makes it worse as about 80% o

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Drak
Have you guys considered doodle.com? I think you are all stressing way too much over the voting process. When a vote is closed you can then transfer the decision to the RFC. Drak On 3 June 2011 14:12, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: > > On Fri, 3 J

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Pierre Joye
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > >> > Voting on the wiki? Yuck. If you want participation, do it here on the >> > mailinglist and store the record in the wiki. If all "votes" are showing >> >> Voting on ML is messy and means somebo

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Derick Rethans
On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > > Voting on the wiki? Yuck. If you want participation, do it here on the > > mailinglist and store the record in the wiki. If all "votes" are showing > > Voting on ML is messy and means somebody needs to read every message on the > list and look for vote

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Michael Shadle
Why doesnt voting happen using a poll/voting engine. Written in (gasp) PHP! (although soon PJSON) On Jun 3, 2011, at 1:03 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > >> Voting on the wiki? Yuck. If you want participation, do it here on the >> mailinglist and store the record in the wiki. If all "votes"

[PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! Voting on the wiki? Yuck. If you want participation, do it here on the mailinglist and store the record in the wiki. If all "votes" are showing Voting on ML is messy and means somebody needs to read every message on the list and look for votes, however long, tedious and offtopic the disc

Re: [PHP-DEV] Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Alexey Shein
2011/6/3 Derick Rethans : > On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > >> I'd like to set up a vote for the undecided TODO features on >> wiki.php.net, anybody could help me with setting up the voting module >> there if there's such thing on the wiki? Or set me up with the access >> to wiki machine

[PHP-DEV] Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward)

2011-06-03 Thread Derick Rethans
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote: > I'd like to set up a vote for the undecided TODO features on > wiki.php.net, anybody could help me with setting up the voting module > there if there's such thing on the wiki? Or set me up with the access > to wiki machine and I'll install it :) Votin

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-02 Thread Hannes Magnusson
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 22:24, Stas Malyshev wrote: > I'd like to set up a vote for the undecided TODO features on wiki.php.net, > anybody could help me with setting up the voting module there if there's > such thing on the wiki? Or set me up with the access to wiki machine and > I'll install it :)

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-02 Thread Ilia Alshanetsky
Sounds fine to me. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > We're having pretty lively discussion on the list, twitter and other places, > but let's not forget the big goal of 5.4 :) > > 1. First of all, the official business. Any objections to the RMs for 5.4 > being: > St

Re: [PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-02 Thread Pierre Joye
hi, I have no objection as long as the RFC for the release process is adopted before we do any 5.4 releases, as stated earlier, this is the only way to put ourself on the safe side. Cheers, On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > We're having pretty lively discussion on

[PHP-DEV] 5.4 moving forward

2011-06-02 Thread Stas Malyshev
Hi! We're having pretty lively discussion on the list, twitter and other places, but let's not forget the big goal of 5.4 :) 1. First of all, the official business. Any objections to the RMs for 5.4 being: Stas Malyshev (stas) David Soria Parra (dsp) If not, we'll be the 5.4 RM team. 2. Ca