Re: [PATCH v2] man*/: ffix (migrate to `MR`)

oked, that included Arch, openSUSE, and Fedora - installing the mandoc roff(7) as roff(7) would seem like a bad idea to me. > I also use Termux. Imagine my surprise when I upgraded to groff 1.23.0 > on my tablet and brought up roff(7). I was expecting to see myself in > the mirror, and what should greet me but the visage of Ingo Schwarze! > > Unnerving, no? Heh, buhuuu! Yours, Ingo

Re: Proposed: change `pm` request argument semantics (was: process man(7) (or any other package of macros) without typesetting)

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 06:44:14PM -0500: > At 2023-08-17T21:12:35+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> The problem is that at no point you can have the .roff source, after >> the man(7) macros have been expanded. Would it be possible to split >> the groff(1) pipeline

Re: [PATCH] [grotty]: Use terminfo.

Hi Branden, i did not spend the time yet to understand what this discussion is all about, and it seems to have very low priority for me, at the same time as there are lots of moderate to high priority tasks open for me - including, for example, support for lower-case .TH/.Dt and .SH/.Sh and for .M

Re: [PATCH] [grotty]: Use terminfo.

Hi Lennart, Lennart Jablonka wrote on Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 12:45:01AM +: > Quoth G. Branden Robinson: >> At 2023-08-19T20:08:06+, Lennart Jablonka wrote: >> (I observe that ncurses doesn't actually _provide_ a terminfo(3) page, You can't really say that in general, it appears to be opera

Re: [PATCH] [grotty]: Use terminfo.

Hi Alexis, Alexis wrote on Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 09:02:36AM +1000: > Ingo Schwarze writes: >> The odd one out really is the mandoc implementation of man(1) >> which does use header and NAME section names for lookup. >> It is used by default in OpenBSD, Alpine Linux, Void

Re: [PATCH] [grotty]: Use terminfo.

Hi Lennart, Lennart Jablonka wrote on Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 05:56:51PM +: > Quoth Ingo Schwarze: >> Lennart Jablonka wrote: >>> G. Branden Robinson wrote: >>>> Until it does, read "terminfo(3)" as "putp(3)". It's brings >>>>

Re: groff in openSUSE

. # The suffix ".7" will automatically be appended. # It is possible to set only one or a few of these variables, # there is no need to copy the whole block. MANM_MAN="mandoc_man" # default is "man" Yours, Ingo -- Ingo Schwarze http://www.openbsd.org/ http://mandoc.bsd.lv/

Re: [htmlxref.cnf] Please update link to the Groff manual

Hi, Gavin Smith wrote on Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 08:10:01PM +0100: > On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 01:15:09PM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: >> 4. "They might have changed this by mistake." >> >> Sort of. I find the "html_node" name uglier, but if there's popular >> demand to switch it (back

Re: [htmlxref.cnf] Please update link to the Groff manual

[dropping the external Cc:s to avoid boring uninvolved parties] Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 03:59:13PM -0500: > At 2023-09-30T22:07:44+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> https://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1189607/FULLTEXT01.pdf > This

Re: [htmlxref.cnf] Please update link to the Groff manual

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sun, Oct 01, 2023 at 06:53:30PM -0500: > So while changing the name of the directory back to html_node will fix > some broken link problems, it won't fix them all, and it won't be robust > in the face of future development. I'm fairly neutral on the > "ht

Re: GNU groff in articles

ou really care about can be orders of magnitude faster than listening to a video or podcast. I find it rather ironic to post a video to celebrate "Writing Day": It isn't really called "Talking Day", or is it? Consequently, for lack of accessibility for readers, i cannot c

Re: mandoc -man -Thtml bug: inconsistent vertical space before .TP

Hi Alejandro, Alejandro Colomar wrote on Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 04:30:58PM +0200: > This got me curious about TQ, since mandoc(1) considers it "very rarely > used, even in GNU pages". > > Ingo, you may want to reword that, since TQ was being used in the Linux > man-pages project, Done, thanks for

Re: mandoc -man -Thtml bug: inconsistent vertical space before .TP

Hi Branden and Alejandro, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 04:54:21AM -0500: > At 2023-10-24T02:13:34+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> 5. On top of all that, i have a hard time to think of any macro >> that has a more wicked failure mode than .TQ in case the &

Re: Why does man(7) have 3 paragraph macros for the same thing?

Hi Branden and Alejandro, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:28:13AM -0500: > At 2023-10-26T16:58:13+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 09:51:40AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: >>> At 2023-10-26T16:12:36+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: Regarding PP

Re: `\c`, mdoc(7), and man(7) extension macros (was: [PATCH 1/2] man*/: srcfix)

Hi Branden and Alejandro, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 07:58:35AM -0500: > At 2023-10-25T21:38:59+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 01:54:24PM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: >>> diff --git a/man2/open.2 b/man2/open.2 >>> index 4c921723c..6603dfdff 1

.Li in mdoc(7), was: `\c`, mdoc(7), and man(7) extension macros

Hi James and Alexis, Alexis wrote on Mon, Nov 06, 2023 at 11:28:55AM +1100: > "James K. Lowden" writes: >> .Sh SYNOPSIS >> .Nm Since you are asking about style, here is a tiny detail: In the SYNOPSIS, i recommend not leaving out the .Nm argument, mostly for the benefit of human readers of the

Re: mandoc -man -Thtml bug: inconsistent vertical space before .TP

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 02:34:45PM -0500: > At 2023-10-26T18:37:58+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> In particular, when designing a markup language for documentation, i >> consider it critical to carefully compare the design to HTML, LaTeX

Re: Why does groff require psutils?

Hi, not related to the "psutils" questions, but this almost made my eyes fall out. Alexis wrote on Sun, Nov 26, 2023 at 12:28:25PM +0100: > Would replacing the following in src/preproc/html/pre-html.cpp > s = make_string("psselect -q -p%d %s %s\n", >pageno, psFileName, psPageName); WH

Re: man(7) <-> mdoc(7) (approximate) correspondence table?

Hi, Alejandro Colomar wrote on Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 10:41:44AM +0200: > On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 04:17:28PM +1000, Alexis wrote: >> As someone who's much more familiar with mdoc(7) than man(7), is there an >> approximate 'correspondence table' somewhere that gives at least a rough >> sense of whic

Re: [Groff] Automake now in master

Hi Bertrand, Bertrand Garrigues wrote on Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:33:09AM +0100: > Therefore I've just merged the automake3 branch in master and removed > the three branches that were used for this development (automake, > automake2, automake3). As discussed several times before the work was > sp

Re: [Groff] Lack of professionalism ....

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:29:15AM +0100: > Peter Schaffter wrote: >> Doug McIlroy wrote: >>> So it looks to me as if the policy of distributing mildly >>> compressed macro packages has only two perceptible effects: it >>> complicates maintenance and it complicates unders

Re: [Groff] Lack of professionalism ....

Hi Werner, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Sat, Mar 07, 2015 at 07:38:44PM +0100: > Well, the ms macros are *much* simpler than mdoc's highly nested macro > parsing. You should really try unprocessed vs. processed mdoc, > applied to a very long man page, and you will see a significant > difference in pr

Re: [Groff] Unexpected output for \(a~

Hi Carsten, Carsten Kunze wrote on Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 01:07:55PM +0100: > in groff_char.7 it is specified that U+0303 is output for \(a~ but > actually U+007E is output. Why does the output (of nroff -Tutf8) > differ from the specification? It seems to me that you misread the documentation.

Re: [Groff] -mm formatting macros question

Hi Marisa, Marisa Giancarla wrote on Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 11:03:03PM -0700: > This should be easy - what are the macros in -mm -mm is a macro set. It is intended to make entering roff(7) code easier. That implies that it doesn't need to contain macros for things that are already easy with low-

Re: [Groff] bullets render as question marks

Hi Aaron, Aaron Davies wrote on Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 12:38:13PM -0500: > \(bu bullets in man pages are rendering as question marks under > default settings for me > > is this expected? No, but you don't supply enough information to really help debugging. * Which version of which operating sys

Re: [Groff] bullets render as question marks

Hi Aaron, Aaron Davies wrote on Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 03:04:20PM -0500: > On Nov 30, 2015, at 12:52 PM, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> Aaron Davies wrote on Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 12:38:13PM -0500: >>> \(bu bullets in man pages are rendering as question marks under >>> default

Re: [Groff] bullets render as question marks

Hi Aaron, Aaron Davies wrote on Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 08:00:06PM -0500: > $ locale charmap > ANSI_X3.4-1968 Heh. I didn't see that name for ASCII before and had to look it up to learn what it means. :) The GNU nroff(1) script never heard about that name for ASCII either, so it falls back to LC

Re: [Groff] eqn converts "lambda" to "&lamda;"

Hi Brian, McGuinness, Brian wrote on Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 07:15:21PM -0500: > I was experimenting with eqn because I think it > will prove very useful for generating MathML > code easily. Groff is certainly a good choice for processing eqn(1) input, in particular when aiming for typeset output,

Re: [Groff] eqn converts "lambda" to "&lamda;"

Hi Ted, Ted Harding wrote on Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 05:01:54PM -: > You have replied to a message from Brian McGuinness, 13/12/2015. > I do not seem to have received such a message myself, nor can > I find it in the groff archive (though your reply is there). > Maybe it was a personal message t

Re: [Groff] Licence question regarding an-ext

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 08:14:28PM +0100: > Carsten Kunze wrote: >> tmac/an-ext.tmac says: >>> .\" Copyright (C) 2007-2014 Free Software Foundation, Inc. >>> .\" >>> .\" Written by Eric S. Raymond >>> .\"Werner Lemberg >>> .\" >>> .\" You may freely use, mo

Re: [Groff] Licence question regarding an-ext

Hi Carsten, Carsten Kunze wrote on Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 08:38:43PM +0100: > Werner Lemberg wrote: >> Carsten Kunze wrote: >>> But the mention of a FSF copyright has nothing to do with >>> GPL--right? >> Correct. > Ok, if the file is "unlicenced" Wait! The file is not "unlicensed", not at all.

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 07:05:01AM +0200: > Doug McIlroy wrote: >> Werner LEMBERG wrote: >>> The canonical documentation, BTW, are the groff info files >> How ironic! > Yes :-) However, `info' is the official GNU documentation format, > and its indexing system is quite

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi Werner, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 02:05:05PM +0200: > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> Werner LEMBERG wrote: >>> However, `info' is the official GNU documentation format, and its >>> indexing system is quite good, something groff's output fo

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 06:34:08PM +0100: > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> Then inside less(1), type >> >> :t read > Does that use less's LESSGLOBALTAGS environment variable to look > up the tag? No. The formatter uses the semanti

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi James, James K. Lowden wrote on Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 08:18:51PM -0400: > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:10:22 +0200 > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> Take a large manual, for example ksh(1). >> With the mandoc-based implementation of man(1), type >> >> $ man ksh &g

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi James, James K. Lowden wrote on Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 10:40:41AM -0400: > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:56:52 +0200 > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> 4. Let the man(1) steering program fork and exec less(1). > I'm using NetBSD 7.0, and my /usr/bin/man doesn't work as you >

Re: [Groff] .if !dTS - GNU extension?

Hi James, James K. Lowden wrote on Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:43:03PM -0400: > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:50:52 +0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> James K. Lowden wrote: >>> I'm pretty sure my man invokes mandoc as "mandoc". >>> Would that be a problem?

Re: [Groff] How to find bugs in man pages?

Hi Xose, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 04:10:15PM +0100: > Xose wrote: >> I'm using: groff -z -b -wall manpage.x >> Is there anything better? > Not as far as I know. Inside groff, that is. > That doesn't complain about these errors. > > $ zcat /usr/share/man/man1/bash.1.gz

Re: [Groff] colorized man pages

Hi James, James K. Lowden wrote on Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 12:07:22AM -0400: > http://boredzo.org/blog/archives/2016-08-15/colorized-man-pages-understood-and-customized I despise such pointless chatter. It makes a lot of stupid words about a trivial matter without being aware that a ready-to-use s

Re: [Groff] colorized man pages

n 1989 on behalf of the USENIX association and completed it before the release of BSD Net/2 in August 1991. The first version of the Linux kernel was released a few months later, in October 1991. Rik Faith started the Linux man pages project in 1993, Andries Brouwer took over in 1995. > Ingo Sc

Re: [Groff] Possible bug in -doc

Hi, Carsten Kunze Heirloom wrote on Mon, Oct 03, 2016 at 12:31:02PM +0200: > the problem in the document is the missing "-width" argument for .Bl. > From groff_mdoc: > > If a width is not specified for the tag list > type, every time ?.It? is invoked, an attempt > is made to determine an appropr

Re: [Groff] Possible bug in -doc

Hi Steffen, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 01:41:43PM +0200: > Having a definition list with some few first words in a different > style, e.g., bold or emphasized, than directly following text in > the same paragraph block, i.e., term and definition, or tag and > text, in the same

Re: [Groff] groff developments - query about any interest?

Hi, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 02:08:00PM +: > George Helffrich wrote: >> If there is interest in these utilities, let me know how to contribute >> them to the present code base. > They do indeed sound interesting, as Doug said. I'm flabbergasted how people can call code i

Re: [Groff] groff developments - query about any interest?

Hi John, John Gardner wrote on Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 02:27:43AM +1100: > Regarding HTML... I fully hear what you're saying. Somebody asked for a > realtime preview of manual-page editing > for Atom (a text editor > which is built using web techno

[Groff] overview of man(1) and groff(1) command line options

Hi, i just assembled an overview of all the command line options of man(1), groff(1), and closely related utilities: http://mdocml.bsd.lv/man/man.options.1.html http://mdocml.bsd.lv/cgi-bin/cvsweb/man.options.1 That may hopefully be useful for people who are forced to add a command line opti

Re: [Groff] Commits done

Hi Carsten, Carsten Kunze Heirloom wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 12:12:55AM +0100: > the intended commits are done. Thank you very much for these commits. I just applied the same changes regarding mdoc(7) double quote rendering (both in general and specifically for .%T) to mandoc, such that the

Re: [Groff] What does .\" NS mean in the unstripped tmac files?

Hi, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 02:14:17PM +: > Werner Lemberg wrote: >> John Gardner wrote: >>> .\" NS Dd user macro (not parsed, not callable) I guess that means "namespace". The syntax of these lines (almost) always is .\" NS where usually is a two letter name (c

Re: [Groff] What does .\" NS mean in the unstripped tmac files?

Hi, oops, just noticed when looking at John's initial message: John Gardner wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 07:38:52PM +1100: > I'm digging through Groff's source, and I found this puzzling acronym > littered throughout tmac/doc-common-u: > .\" NS Dd user macro (not parsed, not callable) > .\" NS

Re: [Groff] tilde glyph

Hi, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 08:01:09PM +: > Doug McIlroy wrote: >> It appears that a tilde (unicode 07E) input to groff -Tpdf comes out >> as a diacritical (unicode 303). This happens even when the tilde is >> entered as \N'126'. How can I get 07E? > `asciitilde', as Po

Re: [Groff] Unix Research Editions 8, 9, and 10 Available.

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 02:31:24PM +0100: > Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 will no longer have copyright > asserted over them. While that vaguely resembles the wording of the original announcement, in this form, it is a grossly misleading statement. For one t

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages.

Hi, i think it is clear due to Ralph's extensive analysis that this whole thing is a mess: Even looking at groff only, for historical reasons, the input sequences - \- \(hy \(mi \(en are handled differently across output devices and across macro sets, so even using current groff alone

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:41:22AM -0400: > to the more readable (and, I submit, more writable-by-the-novice): > > .TP > .B \-scale \c > .IR xfac [, yfac ] > Multiply the horizontal and vertical window size by YIKES, that sounds like an absolutely terrible idea! T

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 09:22:25PM -0400: > At 2017-04-24T18:29:57+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:41:22AM -0400: >>> to the more readable (and, I submit, more writable-by-the-novice): >>>

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages.

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 07:26:32AM -0400: > At 2017-04-25T12:47:25+0200, Carsten Kunze wrote: >> Carsten Kunze wrote: >>> Ingo Schwarze hat am 24. April 2017 um 16:39 geschrieben: >>> Assuming this is considered the right direction, how w

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

is overstated. In that sense, maybe, though i said "to be avoided if possible". > Maybe \c it's like inline assembly in C. Something best reserved to > experts under special circumstances, perhaps, but not a horrible hack. I guess we can agree on that, yes. > At 2017-04-

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages.

Hi Ralph, i think it is fair to say that our priorities differ slightly here; i value simplicity for writers slightly higher than you seem to, and you seem to value typeset (e.g., PDF) output slightly higher than i tend to. No doubt, both priorities have some merit. I don't deny that writing goo

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi, Bjarni Ingi Gislason wrote on Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 04:00:29AM +: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:41:22AM -0400, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > > At 2017-04-24T16:22:37+0100, Ralph Corderoy wrote: >>> .SM affect the next input line as it uses an input trap, `.it'. `\c' >>> doesn't make an inpu

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild

Hi, wow, you definitely demonstrate diligence in investigating existing usage. Let's have a look at the result. The only use cases that are (arguably) legitimate are FONT_MACRO_C, PRIVATE_FONT_MACRO_C, SMALL_C, and TILDE_C. Not counting the groff documentation itself (because that might be cons

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 02:21:10PM +0200: > You have a notion of "callable" and "parsed", and you should be > aware of that or you introduce errors which are hard to find. Wrong. Just assume everything is callable. Actually, mandoc warns if you use the name of a macr

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 09:46:27AM -0400: > At 2017-04-27T14:30:33+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> wow, you definitely demonstrate diligence in investigating existing >> usage. > [...] >> That can be summarized as follows: Legitimate hand-

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 08:19:21PM +0200: > the HTML output of mandoc used repeated per-paragraph style > directives and a CSS file, which caused enormous bloat, last > time i tried. Does that still apply to view-source:http://man.openbsd.org/ksh I spent a few week

Re: [Groff] bug in macro '.IR' (was ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages).

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 07:54:55AM +0200: > g.branden.robinson wrote: >> It'd be nice if 3 year-old bugs could get some feedback from the >> maintenance team. >> >> What needs to happen to make that possible? > A new maintainer. While that would no doubt be excellent,

Re: [Groff] bug in macro '.IR' (was ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages).

Hi John, John Gardner wrote on Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:14:55PM +1000: > ISC forever! Well, kind of "no" in the present context. While i do personally prefer the ISC license for software that i write myself, i also fully respect James Clark's decision to publish groff under the GPL, and i do ack

Re: [Groff] Using \(aq in plain English words--bad idea?

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 08:32:57AM -0400: > I'm noticing that in some of groff's own man pages, the plain-old > long-suffering apostrophe is explcitly avoided in favor of \(aq. > > And I don't mean in any fancy technical jargon, I mean in plain > language like: > >

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 03:47:53PM +0100: > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> .Fl S Ar var Ns Op Pf = Ar value > This has reminded me of one reason I didn't get on with mdoc. > Only the `Fl' is obviously mdoc's, due to the `.' invocation.

Re: [Groff] Using \(aq in plain English words--bad idea?

Hi, Dave Kemper wrote on Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 02:47:50PM -0500: > On 4/29/17, G. Branden Robinson wrote: >> At 2017-04-29T15:40:06+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >>> So yes, documentation kind of recommends "Don\(aqt listen". >> I don't interpret it that way

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 07:26:15AM -0400: > At 2017-04-27T17:37:15+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> .TP >> \fB\-scale\fP \fIxfac\fP[,\fIyfac\fP] >> is not bad markup, but decent quality man(7) code > Well, thanks. This is what it looked like b

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi John, John Gardner wrote on Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 10:50:23PM +1000: > .de XR > . Xr \\fB\\$1\\fP \\$2 > .. That's a bad idea for three reasons. 1. It already stands out by the (N), additional font change is not required. Manuals tend to have so much font jumping anyway that they are

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild [LONG]

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 07:51:26PM -0400: > some of these categories are going to be hard to recognize without > a standalone *roff parser, which I don't think exists. I'm working on that in mandoc, albeit rather slowly. Mandoc is a four-phase program. The

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages.

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 07:36:03PM -0400: > I'm working up a man(7) style guide that is sure to be completely > uncontroversial. > > Here is the relevant material from it. > > Note that this is related to but independent of Ingo's proposal. > My preferenc

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild [LONG]

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, May 01, 2017 at 12:15:55PM -0400: > You mentioned deroff(1); GNU roff does not provide its own > implementation of it, and Debian doesn't offer one. Hugh? Then what does the spell(1) utility call that is contained in whatever base operating system y

Re: [Groff] Applications of \c in man pages in the wild [LONG]

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, May 01, 2017 at 12:15:55PM -0400: > I wish groff could emit its AST itself, though. That desire feels understandable. Then again, if you intend to ask the current implementation whether it wants to help, brace yourself for an answer that might seem

Re: [Groff] : ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages

Hi Doug, Doug McIlroy wrote on Mon, May 01, 2017 at 06:55:19PM -0400: > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> If you want a real minus sign (in particular in mathematical >> formular as opposed to in programming language source code), >> \- is not a good choise. > This statement baf

Re: [Groff] Macro "itc" is needed to make escape "\c" useful

Purely FYI: Given that the man(7) .TP .itc hack got committed to groff, as promised, i adjusted mandoc(1), both in OpenBSD and in the portable version, to handle .TP heads with \c the same way. Of course, i still don't recommend actually using it, because that would make your manual page misrende

Re: [Groff] : ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages

Hi, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Tue, May 02, 2017 at 11:50:31AM +0200: > I now think it is better to revert all those per-macro adjustments > altogether and be pure; if people use \- to get "nicer" (smoother > and finer that is) output then pasting from manual is simply > impossible. That is clear

Re: [Groff] Macro "itc" is needed to make escape "\c" useful

Hi, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, May 02, 2017 at 11:48:56AM -0400: > Note that the commits also affected the .SH, .SS, .B, .I, .SM, and .SB > macros as well. Basically it affected anything that set an input trap. True. What i committed to mandoc(1) so far only adjusts the block macros (th

Re: [Groff] : ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages

Hi, Ingo Schwarze wrote on Tue, May 02, 2017 at 03:45:01PM +0200: > By the way, in the meantime, i also received support from NetBSD/pkgsrc > for my proposal (\- always U+002D, \(mi always U+2212). That's > Ralph, Branden, NetBSD/pkgsrc, and one relevant FreeBSD developer > the

Re: [Groff] Critique this bold-italic private macro for man pages

Hi, Carsten Kunze Heirloom wrote on Wed, May 03, 2017 at 09:37:21PM +0200: > I assume also mandoc(1) reads \(.g as 1. Yes: $ echo '\\n(.g' | mandoc | sed -n 5p 1 $ less /co/mdocml/roff.c int roff_getreg(const struct roff *r, const char *name) { int val; if ('.' == name[0]

Re: [Groff] Critique this bold-italic private macro for man pages

Hi Branden, > .ie c \(lq .ds `` \(lq > .el.ds `` `` > .ie c \(rq .ds '' \(rq > .el.ds '' '' > > What do you think? If doesn't work: $ uname -a SunOS unstable11s 5.11 11.2 sun4u sparc SUNW,SPARC-Enterprise $ cat tmp.roff .ie c \(lq .ds `` \(lq .el.ds `` `` .ie c \(rq .d

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Wed, May 03, 2017 at 03:51:24PM +0100: > - A hyphen for text, e.g. beer-flavoured ice-cream. > \- A minus sign in the current font. > \(miA minus sign in the special font. > \(hyAnother name for plain `-', so a hyphen for text.

Re: [Groff] Critique this bold-italic private macro for man pages

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Wed, May 03, 2017 at 08:52:42PM -0400: > Why do my man pages need to be more portable the shell scripts > or C code I ship with them? They need not, but i would consider aiming for about the same level of portability reasonable. Meaning, that they work o

Re: [Groff] ASCII Minus Sign in man Pages

Hi James, James K. Lowden wrote on Wed, May 03, 2017 at 08:13:18PM -0400: > IIUC, this debate about how to render - and \- stems from a conflict in > historical practice. Is the following correct? > > When troff was young, terminals were ascii and the - character > was 0x2d. Manpage gu

Re: [Groff] Nesting font macros in man pages

Hi Colin, Colin Watson wrote on Thu, May 04, 2017 at 07:07:28PM +0100: > The main practical reason I've stuck with man(7) in some cases > (such as in man-db) Actually, for man-db, the choice of man(7) is somewhat understandable, since man-db is most relevant in situations where mandoc(1) is not

Re: [Groff] Some statistics on man page macro usage

Hi Branden, for comparison, here are the numbers for the OpenBSD base system and for the OpenBSD port of X.org (Xenocara). I do not include data for any third party software installed (my main notebook has 2837 additional man(7) and 105 additional mdoc(7) manuals installed in /usr/local, but that

[Groff] FWD: [bug #51021] groff_man(7) manual page: recommendations for escape sequences

Also posting the patch here for easy reference, and as a heads-up. - Forwarded message from Ingo Schwarze - Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 19:29:49 -0400 (EDT) To: bug-gr...@gnu.org Subject: [bug #51021] [PATCH] groff_man(7) manual page: recommendations for escape sequences URL: <h

Re: [Groff] Macro "itc" is needed to make escape "\c" useful

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Wed, May 03, 2017 at 11:37:08AM +0100: > Ingo wrote: >> Given that the man(7) .TP .itc hack got committed to groff > ... >> Of course, i still don't recommend actually using it, because that >> would make your manual page misrender on groff <= 1.22.3, on mandoc <

Re: [Groff] [PATCH] groff_man.7: Doc how to get >1 paragraphs under one tag

Hi Branden, i think this patch improves the manual page. See inline for some nits. Yours, Ingo G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, May 16, 2017 at 04:11:09AM -0400: > Note how to get >1 paragraphs under one tag. > > I have seen many creative ways of getting this wrong, including blank > input

[Groff] Why does tty-char.tmac not represent meaning?

Hi, consider the situation of a document author who strives to write a roff document with the simultaneous goals of having it render nicely when typeset (e.g., with -Tpdf) and having it render intelligibly when on a -Tascii terminal. For example, that is a usual set of goals when writing manual p

Re: [Groff] Why does tty-char.tmac not represent meaning?

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 06:16:27PM +0200: > Ingo Schwarze wrote: >> What would you think about changing the - admittedly venerable - >> policy in this respect? About shifting the top priority onto making >> the meaning unambiguous in -Tascii ou

Re: [Groff] Why does tty-char.tmac not represent meaning?

Hi Doug, thanks for commenting, also showing that you are not opposed to the general idea. Doug McIlroy wrote on Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 07:22:11PM -0400: > Please change "gradient" to a generic name. > It is usually read "del" Using that designation would be unfortunate because "del" is also com

Re: [Groff] mom : unicode in .INCLUDE'd files

Hi, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 10:30:36PM +0200: > In my humble opinion preconv has to go as such, > i just do not know yet. Just talking. So much talk... In mandoc, i completed that work in October 2014: http://mandoc.bsd.lv/cgi-bin/cvsweb/preconv.c#rev1.9 "commit me

Re: [Groff] mom : unicode in .INCLUDE'd files

Hi Ralph, Ralph Corderoy wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 12:38:16PM +0100: > UTF-8 comes along and groff can't adopt it because it's already > taken an incompatible fork. In theory, that's true. If you see a two-, three-, or four-byte sequence that forms a valid UTF-8 character, it could theoreti

Re: [Groff] Why does tty-char.tmac not represent meaning?

Hi, Werner LEMBERG wrote on Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 09:42:00AM +0200: > After a quick glance: LGTM. Thanks for working on this. I just completed this work, handling national language characters in the same way. Unless there are objections, it would be nice if somebody with commit access could put

Re: [Groff] Regarding HTML rendering

Hi, Peter Schaffter wrote on Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 01:37:17PM -0400: > On Wed, Aug 16, 2017, Mikkel wrote: >> I can see that nobody has replied. Pleas don't worry about it. It's not >> anything critical to me it's just sometimes nice to have a little input >> from others. I think that tbl is the r

Re: [Groff] Regarding HTML rendering

Hi Steve, Steve Izma wrote on Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 04:52:56PM -0400: > A relatively simple notation like Markdown would also work, I agree with all you are saying except this. The OP is certainly better off writing his documents in proper roff(7) or groff_mom(7) and living with slighly quirky H

Re: [Groff] tmac.an: using .RS/.RE inside .IP inside .SS

Hi, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote on Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 12:21:01PM +0200: > Ralph Corderoy wrote: >> G. Branden Robinson wrote: >>> Any tips? >> Here's a simpler test case. > "IP" is a temporary indent. "RS" indents not relative to the indent > of "IP", but relative to the indent of a corresponding

Re: [Groff] Regarding HTML rendering

Hi Mikkel, mikkel meinike wrote on Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 03:17:17PM +0200: > Ingo wrote: >> So technically, the best way to transform groff_mom (7) documents >> Into HTML would be to parse a high-level MOM node tree and convert >> That directly to HTML, without going through troff (1) at all, like

Re: [Groff] [PATCH] groff_char(7): Add \(dq as glyph that doesn't print as itself.

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 05:23:05PM -0400: > Resurrecting the half of a patch of mine from April that Ingo didn't > take care of for me. > > I checked, and I did not bust the column width in the table even on a > TTY with MANWIDTH=80. > > Comments appreciate

Re: [Groff] pic.ps

Hi Doug, Doug McIlroy wrote on Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:43:40AM -0400: > The Fedora system I have access to lacks /usr/share/doc/groff, > and in particular the wonderful tutorial /usr/share/doc/groff/pic.ps. It might be somewhere else. For example, the OpenBSD port has it here: /usr/local/sha

Re: [Groff] [PATCH] Expand portable escape section of groff_man(7).

Hi Branden, G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 12:33:06PM -0400: > Expand portable escape section of groff_man(7). Most of this seems acceptable to me, with some exceptions, see below. I think you should put it in, taking my comments into account or dismissing them at your di

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