Hello Kurt,
T. Kurt Bond wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 05:11:59PM -0500:
> Ingo says:
>> Sure, if your personal task is to write one document with one single
>> output format in mind, even a tool containing that design mistake
>> can prove adequate and helpful in that particular case.
> But that
Hi Branden,
G. Branden Robinson wrote on Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 01:04:29PM -0600:
> 2. Command-line option descriptions frequently need to make mention
> of application features. If those haven't been presented yet,
> an option description can be mystifying.
This is usually mitigated by
[self-follow-up]
I forgot to type out one of the numbered points I had in mind.
At 2025-01-22T20:47:25-0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > Maybe what you have in mind is that i abhor a few specific sections
> > that are occasionally seen in the wild, most notably OPTIONS
> > and NOTES. Those ar
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 3:47 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2025-01-22T07:10:54+0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > i'll try to focus on the most pertinent, most technical points,
> > and only respond selectively to political arguments, mostly where
> > i fear that misperceptions might arise.
>
At 2025-01-22T07:10:54+0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> i'll try to focus on the most pertinent, most technical points,
> and only respond selectively to political arguments, mostly where
> i fear that misperceptions might arise.
And in this retitled thread I'll deal with the technical points. In
ano
Hi branden,
G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:27:36AM -0600:
[...]
> Possibly I'll formally propose an `SX` macro for man(7) at some point.
You mean that like mdoc(7) .Tp, not like mdoc(7) .Sx, right?
> It's not a high priority, nor in the near future because the automatic
>
Hi,
On Wed Jan 22, 2025 at 8:36 PM CET, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> onf wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:13:57PM +0100:
> > On Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 10:22 PM CET, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Since this point keeps getting discussed, i'll briefly mention
> >> that, when designing a markup languag
Hi Branden,
G. Branden Robinson wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:59:41PM -0600:
> We need a design for automatic construction of
> tag/anchor names from the user-specified names of the items to be
> tagged. In man(7) documents, those taggable items are probably going to
> be:
>
> 1. the identi
Hello,
onf wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:13:57PM +0100:
> On Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 10:22 PM CET, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
>> T. Kurt Bond wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 12:57:16PM -0500:
>> > Branden said:
As far as I know, none of pod2man(1), asciidoctor(1), docutils(1),
or pandoc(1) suppo
Hi Branden,
i'll try to focus on the most pertinent, most technical points,
and only respond selectively to political arguments, mostly where
i fear that misperceptions might arise.
G. Branden Robinson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 01:19:08PM -0600:
> At 2025-01-21T16:05:18+0100, onf wrote:
>> On
On Tuesday, 21 January 2025 19:29:22 GMT G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> Okay. I don't know what "expandos" means in this context; can you (or a
> mom(7) maven) point me to the part of Peter's docs that explains it?
Hi Branden,
In section 3.3 of mom-pdf.pdf it says:-
If the hotlink text ends in "*
On Wed Jan 22, 2025 at 12:14 AM CET, onf wrote:
> On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 11:39 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > At 2025-01-21T22:31:44+0100, onf wrote:
> [...]
> > > Given how difficult adding full Unicode support to groff, and
> > > contributing to the formatter in general, seems to be, I th
On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 11:39 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2025-01-21T22:31:44+0100, onf wrote:
> > On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 8:29 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > > Yeah, but I won't have to go sticking my hand into unfamiliar places
> > > in the formatter, and we get to keep the outp
At 2025-01-21T22:31:44+0100, onf wrote:
> On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 8:29 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > Yeah, but I won't have to go sticking my hand into unfamiliar places
> > in the formatter, and we get to keep the output language
> > ASCII-simple.
>
> You could have said that upfront inst
On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 8:29 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> [...]
[rearranging]
> > Given onf and Peter were generally supportive of seeing UTF-8 in
> > grout, and your defence of it was described as "making it perfect for
> > most people would make it horrible for a small minority, so let's
>
Hi,
On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 8:19 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2025-01-21T16:05:18+0100, onf wrote:
> [...]
> > Don't get me wrong, it's nice that one can link to a specific
> > (sub)section of an HTML manpage, but that's completely missing the
> > point of the feature I was actually talk
Hi Deri,
I've owed you a reply to a message since last month, but you went and
made it easy for me to address one point so I'mma do that.
At 2025-01-21T16:31:17+, Deri wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 January 2025 05:59:41 GMT G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> [...]
> > The good news is, that's sorted
Hi onf,
At 2025-01-21T16:05:18+0100, onf wrote:
> On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 6:59 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > At 2025-01-20T01:48:19+0100, onf wrote:
> > > And it works quite nicely, actually. The definitions are generated
> > > automatically, so all manpages written in mdoc benefit from it
On Tuesday, 21 January 2025 05:59:41 GMT G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> Hi onf,
>
[...]
> The good news is, that's sorted out now, and comes with a "NEWS"
> item.[1] Deri was really helpful in sorting out the issues here.
> (As you're aware, there are knock-on issues not yet resolved to
Hi Branden,
On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 6:59 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2025-01-20T01:48:19+0100, onf wrote:
> > Actually, BSD mandoc does implement this, it's just documented at
> > a poorly visible place in the docs. BSD mandoc's man(1):
> > MANPAGER
> > Any non-empty value of th
At 2025-01-20T03:27:07+0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > The definitions are generated automatically, so all manpages written
> > in mdoc benefit from it. I assume groff mdoc + man-db doesn't
> > implement this?
>
> Not that i know of. It would actually be much harder to implement
> in groff than i
Hi onf,
At 2025-01-20T01:48:19+0100, onf wrote:
> Actually, BSD mandoc does implement this, it's just documented at
> a poorly visible place in the docs. BSD mandoc's man(1):
> MANPAGER
> Any non-empty value of the environment variable MANPAGER is
> used instead of the standard pagin
Hello Tadziu,
Tadziu Hoffmann wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:01:12AM +0100:
>> when designing a markup language, permitting the inclusion
>> of chunks written in a different markup language is usually
>> terrible language design.
> Isn't that what tbl, pic, chem, and all the rest are?
> So far
> when designing a markup language, permitting the inclusion
> of chunks written in a different markup language is usually
> terrible language design.
Isn't that what tbl, pic, chem, and all the rest are?
So far the idea has worked quite well over the years.
On Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 10:22 PM CET, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> T. Kurt Bond wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 12:57:16PM -0500:
> > Branden said:
> >> As far as I know, none of pod2man(1), asciidoctor(1), docutils(1),
> >> or pandoc(1) supports a syntax for inlining "raw" man(7)/*roff
> >> source into a d
Ingo says:
> Sure, if your personal task is to write one document with one single
output format in mind, even a tool containing that design mistake
can prove adequate and helpful in that particular case.
But that is not my personal task: my task is to generate output in multiple
formats, which raw
Hello,
T. Kurt Bond wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 12:57:16PM -0500:
> Branden said:
>> As far as I know, none of pod2man(1), asciidoctor(1), docutils(1),
>> or pandoc(1) supports a syntax for inlining "raw" man(7)/*roff
>> source into a document.
Since this point keeps getting discussed, i'll br
Branden said:
> As far as I know, none of pod2man(1), asciidoctor(1), docutils(1), or
pandoc(1) supports a syntax for inlining "raw" man(7)/*roff source into a
document.
I'll note that this is a standard part of reStructuredText, which pandoc
supports, and while I have not used it with pandoc's ma
It seems the mailing list doesn't like my message for some reason.
Let me try again for the 3rd time...
Forwarded message from onf on Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 2:27 PM:
Hello Ingo,
On Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 3:27 AM CET, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> onf wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 01:48:19AM +0100:
> > On Mon
Hello,
onf wrote on Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 01:48:19AM +0100:
> On Mon Nov 4, 2024 at 4:03 PM CET, onf wrote:
>> On Mon Nov 4, 2024 at 1:45 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
>>> "onf" writes:
While you can absolutely get a list of manpages containing a
specific term of a specific type with apropos (
On Mon Nov 4, 2024 at 4:03 PM CET, onf wrote:
> On Mon Nov 4, 2024 at 1:45 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
> > "onf" writes:
> > > While you can absolutely get a list of manpages containing a
> > > specific term of a specific type with apropos (like the example
> > > you gave), what I was getting at is tha
On Fri Nov 8, 2024 at 12:03 AM CET, onf wrote:
> [...]
Sorry for the duplicate. I misinterpreted an error my mail client
gave me after sending it.
On Tue Nov 5, 2024 at 12:10 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
> > I was reacting to the first sentence, which you've left out
> > above. My comprehension of it was that when I say it takes
> > several hours, I must mean man rather than mdoc, to which I
> > was saying: no, it takes a while with both packages.
On Tue Nov 5, 2024 at 12:10 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
> > I was reacting to the first sentence, which you've left out
> > above. My comprehension of it was that when I say it takes
> > several hours, I must mean man rather than mdoc, to which I
> > was saying: no, it takes a while with both packages.
"onf" writes:
I was reacting to the first sentence, which you've left out
above.
My comprehension of it was that when I say it takes several
hours,
I must mean man rather than mdoc, to which I was saying: no, it
takes a while with both packages. I might have misunderstood
you,
though.
Oh
On Mon Nov 4, 2024 at 1:45 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
> "onf" writes:
>
> >> i certainly agree that, for people not regularly creating new
> >> man pages from scratch, having to learn roff and a macro library
> >> probably feels like unnecessary work.
> >
> > I had mostly based this on the original
"onf" writes:
i certainly agree that, for people not regularly creating new
man
pages from scratch, having to learn roff and a macro library
probably feels like unnecessary work.
I had mostly based this on the original quotation of Andrew
Gallant,
but personally it took me a while just to
On Sun Nov 3, 2024 at 11:30 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-11-03T11:13:15+0100, onf wrote:
> > I see, thanks for the explanation. What I forgot to mention is that my
> > distribution uses BSD mandoc for manpages and I haven't changed that,
> > so it just seems that mandoc's man hasn't
At 2024-11-03T11:13:15+0100, onf wrote:
> I see, thanks for the explanation. What I forgot to mention is that my
> distribution uses BSD mandoc for manpages and I haven't changed that,
> so it just seems that mandoc's man hasn't caught up to that change
> (at least I haven't found anything like it
On Sun Nov 3, 2024 at 9:44 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-11-03T05:20:13+0100, onf wrote:
> > Speaking of which, I noticed just recently that all of groff's
> > manpages don't use all caps for subheadings (.SH)... which is about
> > the first time I've seen manpage subheadings that we
Hi Alexis,
On Sun Nov 3, 2024 at 8:39 AM CET, Alexis wrote:
> > It's not that documentation isn't important, merely that it's
> > not so incredibly important to spend several hours on such a minor
> > task. This also becomes a problem in that manpages aren't maintained
> > as well as the softwar
At 2024-11-03T05:20:13+0100, onf wrote:
> On Sat Oct 26, 2024 at 3:33 AM CEST, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > At 2024-10-25T16:51:26+0200, onf wrote:
> > > I wonder if the author tried Drew DeVault's scdoc, it seems to
> > > work well for simpler manpages. (Output is man.)
> >
> > I'm not crazy abo
"onf" writes:
Speaking of which, I noticed just recently that all of groff's
manpages
don't use all caps for subheadings (.SH)... which is about the
first
time I've seen manpage subheadings that weren't in all caps.
In my mdoc(7) ports of documentation in the skaware ecosystem
(e.g. s6-man
Hi Branden,
On Sat Oct 26, 2024 at 3:33 AM CEST, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-10-25T16:51:26+0200, onf wrote:
> > I wonder if the author tried Drew DeVault's scdoc, it seems to work
> > well for simpler manpages. (Output is man.)
>
> I'm not crazy about the non-idiomatic section titles or
"G. Branden Robinson" writes:
https://truss.works/blog/2016/12/9/man-splained
...
*sigh*
The good news is, I've never yet seen a man page that actually
mixed
man(7) and mdoc(7) calls in practice.
If i come across one, i'll let you know. :-)
I admit that that's not a complaint users of
At 2024-10-26T13:33:02+1100, Alexis wrote:
> > The good news is, I've never yet seen a man page that actually mixed
> > man(7) and mdoc(7) calls in practice.
>
> If i come across one, i'll let you know. :-)
Thanks! Could be fun to have another opportunity (via the macro package
"unloading" I pro
Hi Alexis & Onf,
At 2024-10-25T23:02:42+1100, Alexis wrote:
> i find it odd, though, that the dev also wrote:
>
> > On macOS, it's man mdoc. Thankfully, there is little difference
> > between them.
>
> Like In the sense that man(7) and mdoc(7) are both collections of
> roff macros, sure. An
On Thu Oct 24, 2024 at 6:46 PM CEST, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> [...]
> > I tried to do this for years and the result was always sub-optimal. I
> > started by using `pandoc` to reformat Markdown as a man page. Then I
> > converted the docs to asciidoc and used `asciidoctor` (or `asciidoc`)
> > t
"G. Branden Robinson" writes:
$ man groff_man_style # where the gold is
:-)
i find it odd, though, that the dev also wrote:
On macOS, it's man mdoc. Thankfully, there is little difference
between them.
Like In the sense that man(7) and mdoc(7) are both
collections of roff macros, s
I stumbled across the following Reddit discussion thread, and thought
I'd share.
> > I have been looking for a way to automatically generate a man page
> > for a while (with bpaf in my case for one project, xflags for
> > another project).
>
> I tried to do this for years and the result was always
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