Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Michael Snow
On 7/14/2010 12:28 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > The problem with behaviour that is not good / acceptable is that at some > stage it will be recognised and it will kill off the people in a similar way > as to Essjay. The best indication that such things can happen is the upset > of our capable, co

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:04 AM, Cool Hand Luke wrote: > I just want hypothetical (or non-hypothetical) example of alarming chapter > corruption.  I'm having a hard time picturing what you're worried about. > Something concerns you and I don't understand what it is.  Please explain. >From the dis

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Cool Hand Luke
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > Fortunately, it is not about wicked corporations, at least it is not > in the narrow sense. We haven't come into that position. But, I can > expect that it could be a problem in the future if we won't handle > present issues properly. It is

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Cool Hand Luke wrote: > As a temporary resident of Chicago, I would like to think I have a vague > understanding of corruption.  Why on earth would it even be worthwhile to > corruptly influence an independent volunteer boot-strap operation like a > Wikimedia chapt

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Cool Hand Luke
As a temporary resident of Chicago, I would like to think I have a vague understanding of corruption. Why on earth would it even be worthwhile to corruptly influence an independent volunteer boot-strap operation like a Wikimedia chapter? I mean, what the hell are you even talking about? No one n

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Sue Gardner
Yeah, Casey is correct --- basically, what I was saying is that there are other avenues than public mailing lists, and that there are people ready and willing to pay attention if something is wrong. Thanks, Sue --Original Message-- From: Casey Brown Sender: Casey Brown To: foundation-l@l

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Casey Brown
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote: > On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, oliver keyes wrote: >> Sue is the Executive Director of the fastest growing non-profit >> foundation in the United States, a foundation which has just The characterization of the Wikimedia Foundation as the "fastest g

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Mike.lifeguard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, oliver keyes wrote: > Sue is the Executive Director of the fastest growing non-profit > foundation in the United States, a foundation which has just > announced a doubling of its staff, trial direct expansion to two more > nation

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Casey Brown
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > Anyone? Looks like it applies only to employees. > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Policy > "entity with whom Wikimedia Foundation Inc has a business relationship" > includes chapters? > I'm sure she was mentioning i

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 23:54, Oliver Keyes wrote: > To be honest, anyone "whistleblowing" from outside the organisation.. well, > it's rather hard to be punished by the foundation employment-wise when you > don't work for them. Well, yes, that was my point. _

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Oliver Keyes
To be honest, anyone "whistleblowing" from outside the organisation.. well, it's rather hard to be punished by the foundation employment-wise when you don't work for them. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > On 14 July 2010 23:00, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > > Sue Gardner,

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 23:00, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > Sue Gardner, 14/07/2010 18:33: > >> * Anyone who has information about malfeasance or misfeasance inside >> Wikimedia should take a look at our Whistleblower Policy, which lays out >> process for escalation to authorities.  The policy is inten

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Sue Gardner, 14/07/2010 18:33: > * Anyone who has information about malfeasance or misfeasance inside > Wikimedia should take a look at our Whistleblower Policy, which lays out > process for escalation to authorities. The policy is intended to cover > serious and actual problems (rather than f

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread James Alexander
Holy lord people just stop. If we have real issues we want to get back to and address/talk about then by all means but this has just devolved into sniping at each other which doesn't help a damn thing. I have a feeling a good portion of that is because we've sort of come to a point with less to tal

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Oliver Keyes
Err. Who's reply? On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > A question.. how does your reply help ? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 14 July 2010 21:11, Tim Landscheidt wrote: > > > Milos Rancic wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > First of all, I am not able to talk about people

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, A question.. how does your reply help ? Thanks, GerardM On 14 July 2010 21:11, Tim Landscheidt wrote: > Milos Rancic wrote: > > > [...] > > First of all, I am not able to talk about people who complained me. > > Second, if I become more precise about chapters, I would again expose >

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Oliver Keyes
Sounds like it. If these people are so reliable and trustworthy, why exactly haven't they contacted the Foundation? On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Tim Landscheidt wrote: > Milos Rancic wrote: > > > [...] > > First of all, I am not able to talk about people who complained me. > > Second, if I b

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Tim Landscheidt
Milos Rancic wrote: > [...] > First of all, I am not able to talk about people who complained me. > Second, if I become more precise about chapters, I would again expose > my informants. Third, I am not able to talk publicly about particular > chapters based on private talks because I don't have

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, The fact that a person that I am completely positive about can lose an election means that nothing is a given. Our community is able and willing to make choices. Choices that have a perfect gentleman being replaced by a perfect lady. As to Essjay, when it became clear that his credibility was

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Nathan
> Just look at it dispassionately. Wikimedia has how many chapters? And aims to > have how many more?  All self-organized, boot-strapped operations operating > under different systems, in different cultures with varying tolerances for > mixing self-interest with duty.  The odds dictate that some

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Birgitte SB
Even if there is no corruption, there will be. Just look at it dispassionately. Wikimedia has how many chapters? And aims to have how many more? All self-organized, boot-strapped operations operating under different systems, in different cultures with varying tolerances for mixing self-interes

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Sue Gardner
I _try_ to create a monthly report, but we do fall behind. Nobody at the Foundation is happy about that, but they are a pain to produce. We'll probably try to figure out a better, easier way to do it, this year. (And hello Oliver, and welcome to foundation-l!) Just to be clear, I have no idea

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
That's true; sorry, I misunderstood your message. It would be helpful to prevent claims that unspecified employees in unspecified chapters are being corrupted in an unspecified way based on unspecified evidence from unspecified sources :P _

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, She started producing monthly reports. I know she feels strongly that it is important to do so. She has in the past worked hard to fill in missing reports. I would not be surprised that she will find the time to do so again and I am not surprised that it is a lack of time that prevents them fr

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Casey Brown
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:12 PM, oliver keyes wrote: > You think she has the time for a monthly report? > I do, actually, because she does send them out. :-) Things have gotten busy and they've gotten a little behind, but sending out reports is definitely something she considers a priority and

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
"Sue doesn't send out a monthly report" - Sue is the Executive Director of the fastest growing non-profit foundation in the United States, a foundation which has just announced a doubling of its staff, trial direct expansion to two more nations and the gradual relocation of server resources. Yo

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 16:27, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > Thomas that is too easy. Even when there is no corruption the notion > that this idea lives among our people is upsetting. It is well worth it to > be careful this in our communication. I will argue that we are not good at > getting our m

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 16:26, oliver keyes wrote: > > I agree with Tom that there isn't really much to discuss, although I support > the idea of having chapters copy the foundation in to any legally required > audits or yearly reports. Tom, you're more intimately involved; what is the > situation with

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Lodewijk
ok... I dont see how these problems, if they exist, can ever relate to each other, to cause you to treat them in one email post other than "OMG OMG everything is breaking down". At the same time, I just dont understand what you mean. I'll put some questions down, and hope you can treat them in sepe

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Thomas that is too easy. Even when there is no corruption the notion that this idea lives among our people is upsetting. It is well worth it to be careful this in our communication. I will argue that we are not good at getting our message out. It could get more of a priority. Regular rep

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
I agree with Tom that there isn't really much to discuss, although I support the idea of having chapters copy the foundation in to any legally required audits or yearly reports. Tom, you're more intimately involved; what is the situation with chapters and their responsibilities to the foundatio

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 16:13, Milos Rancic wrote: > And I am completely fine with treating my points as unfounded. Ok, then this discussion is over. There is no point us wasting our time discussing unfounded accusations. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundati

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 4:48 PM, oliver keyes wrote: > You claim that the Foundation is tied in with US business interests. Heard of > "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? so far, I've seen > none. If the two people you trust are inside say, the Foundation, surely they > can d

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
You claim that the Foundation is tied in with US business interests. Heard of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? so far, I've seen none. If the two people you trust are inside say, the Foundation, surely they can do something about it? If not, how is this any more than third

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 14 July 2010 15:17, Milos Rancic wrote: > Just to make clear about which problems are, because I didn't > structure text clearly. Problems are: > > 1. Corruption among two chapters. > 2. US business interests influence WMF strategy. > 3. Gap between those who are coming between poor and rich co

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread wjhonson
An audit of what exactly? You mean a financial audit of monies passing through the hands of the WMF ? That kind of audit? Will -Original Message- From: Milos Rancic To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Money,

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 3:50 AM, Nathan wrote: > within Wikimedia chapters. Perhaps these are common knowledge among > subscribers to internal-l, but I don't miss many threads on this list Actually, not. Internal-l is just a non-public (which doesn't mean that it is a private one) fork of foundat

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
Just to make clear about which problems are, because I didn't structure text clearly. Problems are: 1. Corruption among two chapters. 2. US business interests influence WMF strategy. 3. Gap between those who are coming between poor and rich countries. 4. All decisions of WMF, chapters and their bo

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Milos Rancic
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > On 13 July 2010 23:30, Milos Rancic wrote: >> I will talk without mentioning names, but I will try to be precise >> enough. In other words, I don't want to talk about people and >> organizations, but about problems. Taking care about problem

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 13 July 2010 23:30, Milos Rancic wrote: > I will talk without mentioning names, but I will try to be precise > enough. In other words, I don't want to talk about people and > organizations, but about problems. Taking care about problems is much > more important than making witch hunts. Unfortu

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
I did like the general principle of the original statement that there should be some formal interplay between the foundation and chapters. Where I come from, charitable organisations are required to send a yearly report (or two, if a charitable company). This contains financial information, aud

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Noein
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Corruption is a deep concern because it's a transformative and invasive force/process. It's not just a stain, it's rather like an oil spill: growing bigger, with consequences on every level. The more a community let the corruption in, the more the comm

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread oliver keyes
The problem with general accusations that hit nobody in particular is that it's rather hard to follow up on them. I'm sure there is probably at least one corrupt or biased employee of the foundation or chapter somewhere in the world - it's a human weakness. Nothing can really be done about it u

Re: [Foundation-l] Money, politics and corruption

2010-07-14 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Our community is not perfect. That is good. There are people who spend an inordinate amount of time on Wiki related subjects; I am one of them. There are people who go to Wikimania, I have been to all of them. There are people with a large amount of influence; when you heared Jimmy speak I am