[Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Forwarded per request. -- Forwarded message -- From: Joseph Reagle Date: Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 6:45 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..." To: foundation-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org On Thursday, June 17, 2010, phoebe ayers wrote: > Actually, the other

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Keegan Peterzell wrote: > Eugene's post is too long for me to snip but it's basically what I would > have said if I was in my usual verbose mood. > > Basically, I went through a similar thing on strategy wiki selecting the > "official members" of the Living People

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

Eugene's post is too long for me to snip but it's basically what I would have said if I was in my usual verbose mood. Basically, I went through a similar thing on strategy wiki selecting the "official members" of the Living People Task Force. After discussion with Cary and Philippe, we went with

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: >> I don't think scapegoating Wikipedia's gender imbalances to biological >> differences is especially helpful. And the suggestion that it may not be >> possible to dumb-down Wikipedia

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > > The characterization of my mainstreaming suggestion as "dumb-down > Wikipedia enough to attract women" is exceptionally uncharitable and > contributed significantly to my impression that you were trying to > make a target out of me. Jus

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > If nothing else I hope that my frequent incoherence can serve as an > example of why it is essential to be patient and tolerant when we > communicate with others. Indeed. And you're being too hard on yourself; I don't think you were incoh

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

Ask any librarian about what men and women are reading. Men prefer non fictional, women fictional works. Not all of them, of course, but in large majorities. I doubt that that has no consequences for Wikipedia editing behavior. And, as a women once told to a magazine: Women are too polite to correc

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

I think adding mailing list addresses to contacts list will solve the problem. On 18 June 2010 03:07, Anthony wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Thomas Dalton >wrote: > > > 2) Type "lists.wikimedia.org" in the "To:" box > > > > If you use "Has the words:" [quote]listid:"*.wikimedia.org"[

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

On 6/17/2010 5:35 PM, phoebe ayers wrote: > OK, so I guess my question is (and we talked about this on IRC too) -- > who has the power or the ability -- or who *should*, in a perfect > world -- create such a committee? We don't have much precedent for > this. There were concerns over who or what bo

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > counter argument in a respectful discussion between colleges we build If I can't even manage to say "colleague" without screwing it up, how can we assume that anything I say was an insult to anything and not just some kind of unfortunate m

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: > I don't think scapegoating Wikipedia's gender imbalances to biological > differences is especially helpful. And the suggestion that it may not be > possible to dumb-down Wikipedia enough to attract women is ridiculous > (and offensive). Regar

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

I don't think scapegoating Wikipedia's gender imbalances to biological differences is especially helpful. And the suggestion that it may not be possible to dumb-down Wikipedia enough to attract women is ridiculous (and offensive). Regardless of our genetic predispositions, there are very real c

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 8:51 AM, wrote: > Thank you all! Very helpful. I'll attribute it to Gareth, and note that it's > passed into widespread use. "The popular observation is that Wikipedia only works in practice. In theory, it can never work." Sheizaf Rafaeli and Yaron Ariel, "Online Motiva

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

OK, so I guess my question is (and we talked about this on IRC too) -- who has the power or the ability -- or who *should*, in a perfect world -- create such a committee? We don't have much precedent for this. There were concerns over who or what body can create governance/oversight structures, par

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Lodewijk wrote: > we want photo's! The company is making photos of every billboard. We have a deal to get all of them under GFDL/CC-BY-SA :) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: h

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

Today's meeting was definitely progressive and the idea of compiling a handbook (or guide, or whatever) to Wikimania is fruitful..but, I just thought: Enthusiasm and good intentions could turn into a problem (or a crisis) if they are not accompanied by experience, or at least know-how. All teams wa

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Platonides wrote: > geni wrote: > >> Well I can search wikipedia-en-l as far back as 13.09.04 and I'm not >> coming up with anything. Running google searches for mentions pre 2006 >> doesn't turn up anything however use explodes in 2006 which is rather >> fast if than jan 2006 use is the first.

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

On 17 June 2010 23:48, wrote: > (James Owen, not Forrester. I actually don't know if James Forrester is > coming this year, > although now that I think of it, maybe he is one of the train-travelling > people?) I am, to both counts, and you can rely on me turning up to anything to do with Wikim

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > 2) Type "lists.wikimedia.org" in the "To:" box > If you use "Has the words:" [quote]listid:"*.wikimedia.org"[/quote] you'll be able to catch certain messages not caught by the To: filter. ___ found

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Pharos wrote: > This is the best source of the "zeroth law" of Wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Raul654/Raul%27s_laws#Laws_by_others > > I believe people have tried to track down the original coiner, but > noone really knows. > > > The "original" original of the concept itself i

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Thank you all! Very helpful. I'll attribute it to Gareth, and note that it's passed into widespread use. Thanks, Sue -Original Message- From: Joseph Reagle Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:39:41 To: phoebe ayers Cc: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List; Sage Ross; Sue Gardner Subject: Re: [Found

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

A couple of fast thoughts: * I think it's debatable whether it's board-level or not. It's board-level in the sense that it's "not staff-level" -- meaning it's mainly a community responsibility rather than a staff responsibility. But to the extent that part of the role of the committee would b

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

we want photo's! 2010/6/17 Sydney Poore > Congratulations on this successful alternative use of content in a BIG > SCALE > way. :-) > > Thanks for sharing it with us. Wonderful idea! > > Sydney Poore > (FloNight) > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 201

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

geni wrote: > Well I can search wikipedia-en-l as far back as 13.09.04 and I'm not > coming up with anything. Running google searches for mentions pre 2006 > doesn't turn up anything however use explodes in 2006 which is rather > fast if than jan 2006 use is the first. I grepped for it in foundati

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

Congratulations on this successful alternative use of content in a BIG SCALE way. :-) Thanks for sharing it with us. Wonderful idea! Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > > [3] - The billboards ar

[Foundation-l] Country portals

I created a page about country portals a while ago (things like wikipedia.de), with the intention of asking people to take a look at it, make sure everything was right, and expand it... but I never got around to it and here I am now. ;-) The page is here:

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Ha. Yes, of course :-) -Original Message- From: Dan Rosenthal Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:07:59 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..." Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works in practice. It c

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > [3] - The billboards are designed as the image from the site, but with > link to the project's site and ... and Wikipedia logo. At the site, user can click on the image, which leads to the appropriate article. __

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > A couple of months ago, we was approached by an artist group which > idea is to raise cultural awareness by putting at billboards stylized > photos of (not so) famous [1] cultural and scientific persons from the > history of Serbia. They wante

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Hello, I could imagine that such a statement, in a different form, comes originally from socialist or anti-socialist circles. By the way, I am not such a big fan of this seemingly witty remark. If there is a conflict between theory and practice, that means that your theory is bad and has to be ad

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: > A couple of months ago, we was approached by an artist group which > idea is to raise cultural awareness by putting at billboards stylized > photos of (not so) famous [1] cultural and scientific persons from the > history of Serbia. They want

[Foundation-l] Wikimedia Serbia billboard campaign

A couple of months ago, we was approached by an artist group which idea is to raise cultural awareness by putting at billboards stylized photos of (not so) famous [1] cultural and scientific persons from the history of Serbia. They wanted to incorporate their art project into Wikimedia Serbia proje

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

Hello, I had the pleasure of spending this past Monday in Tel Aviv, speaking at the Israeli Wikipedia Academy. (More about that in a bit -- the support for Wikipedia and wikis in general among universities there remains extremely strong.)We talked about next year's Wikimania over dinner. On

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On 17 June 2010 21:37, phoebe ayers wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Gerard wrote: >> Here's the phrase in a 1988 sociology paper: >> >> http://jpart.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/1/1/19 >> >> I'd call it a pretty obvious play on words, though, so I really doubt >> we got it f

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Yes, it's communism that works in theory but not in practice. :-) But isn't Wikipedia Communism? It must be true, I saw it written so on Wikipedia! :D - -Mike -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkwaiLoACg

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:37 PM, phoebe ayers wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Gerard wrote: >> Here's the phrase in a 1988 sociology paper: >> >> http://jpart.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/1/1/19 >> >> I'd call it a pretty obvious play on words, though, so I really doubt >> w

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On 17 June 2010 21:14, Michael Snow wrote: > Dan Rosenthal wrote: >> Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works >> in practice. It could never work in theory"? >> > It can be formulated various ways. Raul's Laws has yet another variation: > http://en.wikipedia.or

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Gerard wrote: > Here's the phrase in a 1988 sociology paper: > > http://jpart.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/1/1/19 > > I'd call it a pretty obvious play on words, though, so I really doubt > we got it from that. > > Anyone got a complete wikien-l archive

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Sue Gardner wrote: > Hi folks, > > For several years now, people have occasionally floated the notion > that there should be a permanent Wikimania oversight committee – > basically, a group of people responsible for giving some coaching and > guidance and oversigh

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Here's the phrase in a 1988 sociology paper: http://jpart.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/1/1/19 I'd call it a pretty obvious play on words, though, so I really doubt we got it from that. Anyone got a complete wikien-l archive to grovel through? - d. ___

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Dan Rosenthal wrote: > Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works > in practice. It could never work in theory"? > It can be formulated various ways. Raul's Laws has yet another variation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Raul654/Raul%27s_laws I'd note that i

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

On 17 June 2010 21:07, Dan Rosenthal wrote: > Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works > in practice. It could never work in theory"? I vaguely remember it on wikien-l many years ago. I have no idea if that was its first use. - d.

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

This is the best source of the "zeroth law" of Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Raul654/Raul%27s_laws#Laws_by_others I believe people have tried to track down the original coiner, but noone really knows. Thanks, Pharos 2010/6/17 Jon Harald Søby : > Yes, it's communism that works in

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Yes, it's communism that works in theory but not in practice. :-) 2010/6/17 Dan Rosenthal > Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only > works in practice. It could never work in theory"? > > -Dan > On Jun 17, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Sue Gardner wrote: > > > "The problem wi

Re: [Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

Isn't the quote backwards? "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works in practice. It could never work in theory"? -Dan On Jun 17, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Sue Gardner wrote: > "The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works in theory. It could > never work in practice." > > I've seen that qu

[Foundation-l] "The problem with Wikipedia..."

"The problem with Wikipedia is that it only works in theory. It could never work in practice." I've seen that quote attributed to Jimmy, and also to Miikka Ryokas, quoted by Noam Cohen in his NY Times story about Virginia Tech. But neither of them, I think, originated it. Does anyone have a good

Re: [Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Sue Gardner wrote: > The role of the committee would be to provide coaching > and guidance for the local planning team (“here is how we've done it > in past years, here's what usually works, here are some problems you > should watch out for”) … and also to provide

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

Hi Thomas, I appreciate a lot your warning and hint > This will NOT get things out of spam that are already in it, though. > Search for "in:spam to:lists.wikimedia.org" to find them and "Not > Spam" them manually. as I never noticed before that checkbox "Also apply filter to XXX conversations b

[Foundation-l] Floating a notion: permanent Wikimania committee?

Hi folks, For several years now, people have occasionally floated the notion that there should be a permanent Wikimania oversight committee – basically, a group of people responsible for giving some coaching and guidance and oversight to the local planning team each year. Over the years, support

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

On 17 June 2010 18:12, Ryan Lomonaco wrote: > A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam for > the past five days or so.  It sounds like this is affecting other Wikimedia > lists, including Otrs-en-l and daily-article-l.  I don't know what if any > work has been done to

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

Yes. This is true. Many messages are marked as spam during the past few days. I got this message also from the SPAM folder. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Daniel ~ Leinad wrote: > 2010/6/17 Ryan Lomonaco : > > A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam > for > >

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

2010/6/17 Ryan Lomonaco : > A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam for > the past five days or so.  It sounds like this is affecting other Wikimedia I've noticed the same problem with Gmail ;/ In last days I have to check very carefully spam folder. -- Leinad ___

Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

On 17 June 2010 13:12, Ryan Lomonaco wrote: > A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam for > the past five days or so. It sounds like this is affecting other Wikimedia > lists, including Otrs-en-l and daily-article-l. I don't know what if any > work has been done t

[Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam

A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam for the past five days or so. It sounds like this is affecting other Wikimedia lists, including Otrs-en-l and daily-article-l. I don't know what if any work has been done to try to fix this issue, but until it's sorted out, yo

Re: [Foundation-l] Open Wikimedia meeting on IRC: today, 1700 UTC / 1300 EST in #wikimedia

Reminder: this is starting in a few minutes, and will run until 1830 UTC. SJ On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Samuel Klein wrote: > There will be another open meeting tomorrow on IRC. > > For those who are available, please join us in #wikimedia at 1700 UTC. >  (There's a link to a web-based cl

Re: [Foundation-l] Interlanguage extension

2010/6/11 John Vandenberg : > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Amir E. Aharoni > wrote: >> ... >> A simpler solution was proposed and implemented by Nikola Smolenski >> about two years ago (see the links at the end). It still haven't been >> enabled in the live WMF projects because of technical is

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia trade mark misuse

on 6/17/10 9:47 AM, Nathan at nawr...@gmail.com wrote: > Wow, this thread just needs to end. > > Nathan Interesting, Nathan. "Needs to end" for whom? Would you say the same thing if this were a live in-person discussion? Marc Riddell ___ foundation

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia trade mark misuse

Wow, this thread just needs to end. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia trade mark misuse

On 17 June 2010 11:37, Peter Gervai wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 17:25, Thomas Dalton > wrote many things. > > My sidenote is that if you believe in what you say then you imply > Wikipedia, Wikimedia and everything we have with 'wiki' string in it, > and every method we use which described as

Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: WikiLeaks inspired "New media haven" proposal passes Parliament

Tim Starling wrote: > On 17/06/10 06:55, Michael Snow wrote: > >> If it's in the US, wouldn't it be a data center? (I'm mildly >> disappointed to discover that the Meta pages on the "guerilla UK >> spelling campaign" and the "gorilla US spelling campaign" were deleted >> some time ago. Though

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia trade mark misuse

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 17:25, Thomas Dalton wrote many things. My sidenote is that if you believe in what you say then you imply Wikipedia, Wikimedia and everything we have with 'wiki' string in it, and every method we use which described as 'wiki-way of web publishing' violates Ward's intellect

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

Hoi, Have you had a look at the Indonesian competition? The Indonesian chapter organised a competition among students of 10 universities. The result is many more editors for the id.wp and the majority is female. I am convinced that in many countries a similar result can be achieved. Thanks, G

Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 6:16 PM, George Herbert wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 5:26 PM, phoebe ayers wrote: >> There's been discussion of the gender gap among Wikimedia editors on >> and off for many years now, and it's a focus of the strategic planning >> process. This is a part of a larger is