Linux O'Beardly wrote:
> While many here would probably say it's not a good idea to run servers on
> Devuan until a production release, I am already running it on a number of
> servers.
That's good to know - I need to find time to do some testing myself.
> R. W. Rodolico wrote:
> BTW, while
Hendrik Boom wrote:
>> An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several times a
>> day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The systemd
>> developers did not do this, presumably because they do not have to type
>> these commands several times a day.
>
> I would no
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> That's what I've always assumed - and IMO it seems like a sensible
>> idea. After all, people don't generally object to the idea of programs
>> calling various libraries instead of "doing their own thing".
>
> Well, I certainly do object to this idea: Each program still
On 9 Jan 2016, at 17:02, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:
> 5 - have udev issue manual (admin-chosen) persistent names by mac address
Which, IMO, is the most logical option.
Lets face it, how often do people actually change hardware ? And when hardware
is changed, it's a trivial task to do the one-o
lmost no specific
knowledge of unix but a readiness to learn and a desire to understand what is
going on.
This wiki guide is a great resource, I have walked many people through similar
tasks using this kind of script ... with the right person it works very well.
Simon
_
t Pulse cannot deal with, and don't want to fiddle with your system
to get the lowest latency you can, and don't use audio apps that are Jack based,
and don't want or need to use the other things Jack provides ... then you are
definitely in the majority as f
ins available) but jack offers the advantages
of linking lots of small apps (each built along the unix line of making a
program do one thing and do it well) and allowing the user to arrange the ones
they prefer in the configuration they want. Which takes
s it should. It does connect to
a session bus if it exists, and communicates appropriately ... just that the
only thing it does if one does not exist is print a line to stderr then get on
with everything else.
It seems the author may be abandoning it though, whic
Ozi Traveller wrote:
> There's certainly a pause when boot, if my modem hasn't quite connected.
>
> And if I start the modem first, so it's connected properly, then it just
> boots.
That could be something much more mundane.
If you have no internet connection, or worse, and IP address but no
Ozi Traveller wrote:
> I also have a couple of non-systemd box connected to the same modem, and they
> boot to a desktop without the wait.
It's probably not systemd vs non-systemd. While it does cause me a bit of a
choke to defend systemd, it's probably not specifically systemd that's causing
Ozi Traveller wrote:
> Debian Jessie boot the slowest.
Ah, that'll be because of stuff that hasn't been "improved" into systemd yet
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Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little obsolete anyway.
>
> Today, hosts generally serve only one unix user, there generally is only one
> local user of one host, and that local user is the user that owns everything
> valuable. So is the a real po
Didier Kryn wrote:
> I don't think Grub2 is all about pretty colours though. The veteran admin
> likes to have a bootloader which is easy to configure, but the random admin,
> likes to have a working multi-boot bootloader at the end of the installation.
Indeed, and when ${random_admin} has a m
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> The commands which are actually executed via these S- and K-links come
> from individual packages and ultimatively contain whatever the people
> responsible for that considered sensible. Which is usually a pretty
> arbitrary assortment of more or less useless code which a
On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise wrote:
But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
functionality
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> - Some headers to tell utilities what runlevels the service should run
>> at, and dependencies.
>
> That's a LSB invention. It's a grotesque travesty as it uses 'magic
> comments' to embed a declarative mini programming language in an init
> script which is only ever us
Didier Kryn wrote:
>It's absolutely amazing that one can be a Debian developper and a member
> of Microsoft in the same time. Yes, that's an ethical break down of the whole
> Debian project.
I think some people are reading more into this than they should.
There is no reason whatsoever that
Daniel Reurich wrote:
> perhaps doing the same thing as init-system-helpers dh_systemd package
> to add support for runit into each respective package.
That's the logical way to do it - the init script(s) should be part of the
package. The downside of that is the requirement for every package m
KatolaZ wrote:
> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever.
dev1fanboy wrote:
> So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we voice our
> opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in the free software
> community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to debian because otherwise we're
> elitists.
That's not what I said - a
Mat wrote:
>> That's the logical way to do it - the init script(s) should be part of the
>> package. The downside of that is the requirement for every package
>> maintainer (team) to understand and support multiple init systems - or for
>> someone supporting an init system to become a maintain
On 21/01/16 21:03, Didier Kryn wrote:
Le 21/01/2016 05:57, Simon Wise a écrit :
On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise wrote:
But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer
ou probably want, and may well miss, if you use
the package in an average kind of way. It is worth a quick look during the
apt-get process.
Simon
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RISC OS for X". They had an application-as-folder system and Rox-filer would
still deal with these if you used them, they called this system zeroinstall
since it just required copying the self-contained application folder. Probably
has the same ultimate ancestry as Apple's appli
hat way". I am
interested to hear reports, I am setting up something which will use ldap for
web authentication, and to maintain a directory of various bits and pieces
scattered around.
Simon
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Mitt Green wrote:
> They can request a refund before activating the
> license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of
> money than they spent, if some at all at all.
I recall reading how one person, after a fight to get anything, got much more !
This isn't the case I was thinking of, but
Robert Storey wrote:
> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly
> relevant post:
Really ?
Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a
MacBook Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in
a different keyboar
Robert Storey wrote:
> So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If
> so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal with
> similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions
> already in another post, I"m sorry, I miss
William C Vaughan wrote:
> I have been flamed before because of my posts on this mailing list
That's inexcusable.
> I think that ultimately, EFF or the GNU folks will need to pursue lobbying
> for legislation to prevent hardware companies from imposing restrictions upon
> software installs by
Wim wrote:
> I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on
> it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM.
>
> I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't
> always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio
Wim wrote:
> I would take a look at that SATA cable AGAIN. These break far too often. And
> when they break, they often don't break completely. Symptoms vary from weird
> boot problems, to the OS going corrupt, to a general slow drive.
No, definitely a "hard" fault. While trying to deal with i
richard lucassen wrote:
> I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg.
> But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is
> going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me
> wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't
richard lucassen wrote:
> I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling
> the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd
> system.
> But maybe that solution is too simple, clear and wrong.
I think it's a *possible* solution and has certain attractions - but
Florian Zieboll wrote:
> For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
> --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
> The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):
>
> APT::Install-Recommends "0";
> APT::Install-Recommends "1";
>
> Thi
On 02/02/16 01:58, Didier Kryn wrote:
Le 01/02/2016 14:13, Simon Hobson a écrit :
Florian Zieboll wrote:
For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
--no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
The same with contradicting lines i
On 02/02/16 00:13, Simon Hobson wrote:
Florian Zieboll wrote:
For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
--no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):
APT::Install-Recommends
could not come close to providing it. That is why very simplified GUI
configurations eliminating all the uncommon settings are so popular.
Simon
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Jaromil wrote:
> meanwhile, on the background, the usual bullying goes on among the
> systemd hooligans, sarcastically liquidating the concern with some
> cynical remarks, as if it would be a deserved punition for users
> caught into a bricked laptop rather than an erased filesystem:
>
> http://
On 02/02/16 22:22, Didier Kryn wrote:
Le 02/02/2016 04:39, Simon Wise a écrit :
so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION'
/etc/apt/apt.conf is the main configuration file shared by all
the tools in the APT suite of tools, though it is by no means
the only pla
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> There are really only two options:
>
> 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to
> working with these variables.
>
> 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser
> to know what they're doing.
Or the third option -
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed.
>
> As I wrote in the original text, that's a extremely bad idea because
> this means it may suddenly be affected by an already running command
> never supposed to work with it.
The window for that must be "v
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Dave Turner writes:
>> There seems to be an assumption that everybody is a 'power user' and
>> knows exactly what they are doing.
>> The reality is not like that at all.
>> Leaving nasty surprises for the unwary and inexperienced is at worst
>> malicious and at best inco
Didier Kryn wrote:
>> for the real "general case",
>> someone who blindly trusts the advice of strangers despite he doesn't
>> understand it will end up getting himself in trouble sooner or later and
>> probably rather sooner than later.
>
>Eg nearly any client of a physician, a lawyer...
:
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> "Whoever disagrees with me MUST either have a hidden, maliscious agenda
> or be out of his mind" is a pretty standard way to (attempt to) handle
> a situation where someone ran out of arguments but doesn't feel like
> admitting that.
Not at all. I have a perfectly sound
Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> ..me, I do not see any point in keeping it mounted at all.
> Whenever such a need arises, it should be mounted read-only.
> If a need to write to /sys/firmware/efi/efivars should happen,
> the machine should first be taken off-line, backed-up etc out
> of production and int
Rainer H. Rauschenberg wrote:
> I think this is the road that led to systemd -- if you think Linux needs
> to be "as easy as Windows" you tend to take away all the aspects that made
> it superior (in my view).
I think I didn't really express my position very well.
I'm not advocating "taking al
KatolaZ wrote:
> I don't get why any of those occasional "sysadmin-wannabe" users you
> have described above would ever need to mess around with their UEFI by
> hand.
They don't. But certain tasks they run apparently can do - did someone mention
Grub updating it ?
So one scenario (which I thin
On 06/02/16 00:18, Hendrik Boom wrote:
On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 11:39:15AM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
Of course, unless you physically remove support for the virtual
filesystem, then there's nothing to stop any program with enough
privileges to mount the filesystem when it wants.
And t
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> But "the hardware" didn't "break". Certain vendor-supplied software
> reportedly ceases to function if certain EFI variables are deleted.
That is the sort of linguistic gymnastics that vendors use to get out of
accepting responsibility for stuff.
I think most people wou
en general computer will be frustrated. It is quite a good
learning tool though, since the community is big and helpful.
Simon
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On 08/02/16 14:18, Gregory Nowak wrote:
On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 01:27:19PM +1100, Simon Wise wrote:
raspbian is in between armel and armhf because debian armel is (or
was then) compiled without hard float support while debian armhf is
compiled for arm7 ... so since PIs are arm6 with FPU neither
king cores and process
etc may achieve something???
Wheezy was set up by default to boot in a very manual way, the recommended place
to add services from was often rc.local, so maybe a similar approach was taken
in Jessie. But I have not looked at it
On 08/02/16 17:35, Adam Borowski wrote:
On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 01:27:19PM +1100, Simon Wise wrote:
My understanding is that both the rpi0 and rpi1 are based on a ARMv6
chip, which makes them closer to armel than to armhf. So, I'm afraid
you're stuck with raspbian for now.
rasp
noon as per edbarx's post to #devuan:
As suggested by Jaromil netman was renamed to simple-netaid. Changes
pushed.
that is a really good choice, for jaromils reasons.
simon
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ys label and/or modify it if required.
Simon
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Steve Litt wrote:
> You'd be hugely surprised at how literally some states in the US
> interpret contracts. I live in (anti-employee) Florida, and a friend of
> mine here in Florida was advised by his lawyer to not work for Linux for
> the next 6 months because his former employer had a 6 month
>
t seriously in the way in
any non-desktop use case.
Could be quite a few others following over time.
Simon
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On 12/02/16 02:58, KatolaZ wrote:
My solution: just forget wicd and use wpa_supplicant directly. It
works ALWAYS, without delays, without stupid automagicalities, without
problems.
+1
a little manual intervention,
and a couple of keybindings to make that easier
_
opers
maybe first look at:
man gittutorial
and perhaps some of the other pages it references.
These are much more focussed on the everyday things, with examples, than the
more detailed manpages.
Simon
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On 17/02/16 13:38, Simon Wise wrote:
On 17/02/16 03:38, Steve Litt wrote:
Where would you suggest I find out more about the practicalities of
git? I use it for my own stuff quite a bit, but don't know how to do
branches and all that.
look at:
man gitworkflows
that one is more
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> The abstract definition of 'runlevel' is (as far as I'm aware of it):
> "Set of processes supposed to be running".
That's what I understand it to be.
> Considering this, one can
> safely conclude that whatever 'Dennys' did, he certainly didn't to
> that. A somewhat educ
ook as GUI
also ... if you consider desktops with a windowing GUI on top of a unix system
then linux loses the numbers game to OSX.
Much of the madness of debian going systemd is exactly that desktop usage is a
very small part of linux, and desktop style usage of computers is fading fast.
Simon
Matthew Melton wrote:
> What you are describing is a state machine?
> Each run level is a stable state representing what is running (or supposed to
> be). Something needs to trigger (change of input or "change of runlevel")
> Each stable state has an "init" transition state (starting the servi
KatolaZ wrote:
> The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux
> servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations,
> and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or
> other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD).
>
> I admit that my (very restricted)
Brad Campbell wrote:
>> But then I still have Squeeze and Lenny systems running (they aren't broken
>> ...) - don't think I have anything older than that !
>>
>
> I just bumped up against a problem with a squeeze system. It's ppc, and
> everyone has dropped the non-x86/x64 archives. That made
Arthur Marsh wrote:
> Doesn't snapshot.debian.org keep up until the last released versions of
> packages, including for architectures no longer supported? (Admittedly one
> would need to use packages.debian.org to find out what was the last supported
> version of a package for a different arch
want (or OSX if a heavy, unified, fully backed corporate desktop GUI on top of
Unix is the goal).
Devuan should focus on providing for those who wish to escape from this
approach.
Simon
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using the selection
and clipboard buffers, sending text output to a pager, using the debian
alternatives as generic names for browsers, calling a simple script with an
argument, that kind of thing.
Simon
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Go Linux wrote:
> As did mine. And then a genius of an udev developer took care of it and made
> sure that the cameras ID_TYPE changed from "disk" to "generic", so no user
> but root could use the camera. Now it works again, but ...
Are, what you mean is "it worked until some genius *fixed* it
ithout X running use triggerhappy instead, it is
especially useful as it can listen to most devices, not just keyboards, and can
listen to individual keyboards not just the generic combined one.
To use these with a desktop a few tools are useful ...
xclip wmctrl x
like?
Whatever happened to it?
still around, still painful but very occasionally useful.
Simon
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Edward Bartolo wrote:
> I think, with a signed Linux kernel, UEFI Secure Boot can be made to
> load any other unsigned Linux kernel, which would imply, any
> distribution would be possible to be booted.
>
> How I imagine it can be done:[list]
> [*]boot partition would contain a signed Linux kern
Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Simon Hobson writes:
>> Isn't it the bootloader that UEFI loads and runs, and as long as the
>> bootloader (Grub) is signed, then UEFI should boot it and grub can boot
>> anything you want. Kind of blasts the argument that secure boot is eith
Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Simon Hobson writes:
>> Not really, but I don't see any sign of that as a question in the post I was
>> replying to !
>
> You said secure boot's security is blown out of the water because it's
> possible to run untrusted code un
Teodoro Santoni wrote:
>> What did they replace X11 forwarding with? (I shudder to ask)
>
> Nothing afaik.
That would be the "we don't use it, therefore we don't care if anyone else uses
it - we'll just declare it broken behaviour and drop it" approach to backwards
compatibility.
Rainer We
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> I disagree. I've used remote X forwarding many times, and found it ran
>> "quite nicely" with 400kbps upstream from my home ADSL. Obviously it
>> depends what you are doing, and "graphics intensive" stuff slows
>> enormously, but for anything "text and widgets" based it'
Steve Litt wrote:
> Why this is important is that, to the extent this is perceived as an
> age thing (with the must-have pejorative "neckbeard" or "graybeard"),
> you give PoetterPoser more credibility when he characterizes systemd
> resistance as "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."
Indeed,
Stephan Seitz wrote:
> Äh, why do you need X11 forwarding for text work? For me text work is
> shell/vi/mutt/screen. I’m using these programs daily without the need for X11
> forwarding.
I don't, but sometimes it just happens that way.
> And as far as I was told things like VNC or RDP are an
On 2016/04/04 13:27, Steve Litt wrote:
Isn't Icedove a re-branded Thunderbird? Every time I try to use
Thunderbird, it's an order of magnitude slower than Claws-Mail.
I think XUL shows it's weakness. I am not an expert, but AFAIR, this is
the reason why the Mozilla family of applications beca
On 2016/04/04 17:39, Trond Arild Ydersbond wrote:
Den Mandag, 4. april 2016 8.09 skrev Mitt Green :
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lennart_Poettering&oldid=703955376
Representing him as an ass and bloatware generator is definitely not in the
interest of those challenging his action
Boruch Baum wrote:
> Sorry to ruin the party, but I'll object to it because its just not a
> nice thing to do, and its an awful thing to mess up content on the fine
> site that is wikipedia.
+1 for that
Regardless of what people think of him, it's not a grown up or pleasant thing
to do.
>> The
Boruch Baum wrote:
> Sorry to ruin the party, but I'll object to it because its just not a
> nice thing to do, and its an awful thing to mess up content on the fine
> site that is wikipedia.
+1 for that
Regardless of what people think of him, it's not a grown up or pleasant thing
to do.
>> The
Jim Murphy wrote:
> Did anyone else notice that at about 0726 UTC today
> the mail server, I believe, spit out 3 emails that have "been
> in hiding" for a while.
You are not alone in getting them.
> If I'm reading the 3 attachments correctly, they were received
> by the dng mail list server on
On 2016/04/07 1:24, Steve Litt wrote:
I'll state this clearly: I'm not the person who put up the fake page.
I've never written anything false to a Wikipedia page.
That being said, I thought it was kind of funny and relatively harmless.
After seeing the extreme revulsion several people had to
Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> I'd still like an answer to this question: For the common use case of a
> so-called "desktop system", why should system processes be hidden from
> its owner by default unless said owner does something which is actively
> discouraged, IOW, "Who is trying to hide what here
I thought having a "big binary blob" wasn't supposed to be a problem ;-)
http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-users/2016-04/msg00031.html
> [Xen-users] Debian 8.4, EFI, and systemd = Tricky
> ...
> My problem is that it hangs when trying so init systemd on dom0
> ...
> systemd is new to me. I
On 2016/04/13 3:03, Jaromil wrote:
Now if you like this project to thrive then please lower the
aggression you also recognize as disruptive in other projects. Let go,
ignore what is not interesting. Noone here needs an expert to give an
opinion on every topic, even if mistakes are made. Even a
On 2016/04/14 0:43, Rowland Penny wrote:
On 13/04/16 16:36, hellekin wrote:
On 04/13/2016 12:44 AM, Simon Walter wrote:
I don't mean that we have to be PC about everything, but
"to be PC"? Err, what?
Can you expand the acronym if that doesn't mean Personal Computer
ose, the bluetooth module is not started on boot time. It is
however installed on the file system.
Simon
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dev wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone could offer some clarity on how best to apply
> patches on Debian derived systems? There are so many options across apt-get
> and aptitude... I cannot make sense of them all:
>
> apt-get upgrade
> apt-get dist-upgrade
> apt-get safe-upgrade
> aptitude
On 04/16/2016 06:22 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 04:25:20PM -0500, dev wrote:
On 04/15/2016 03:36 PM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:
For what it's worth, much of the apt vs aptitude is preference and
opinion. However, aptitude does bit better of a job resolving
dependencies and preventin
Go Linux wrote:
> This is putting the cart before the horse IMO. It would be nice to get the
> beta out the door before focusing on ascii. Any chance some of that energy
> could be directed towards the beta release?
I'm kind-of on the fence here.
Part of me is saying yes, look forward to w
Hi all,
I saw Herb's question about Open Stack. I thought I should mention that
I've added support to Cdist for Devuan.
Simon
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On 04/18/2016 07:13 PM, Noel Torres wrote:
* our own bug reporting system
Hi all,
I am a bit surprised there is no bug tracker and some other architecture.
I would like to help make this a reality. Who is "in charge" of that and
who decides this kind of thin
On 04/19/2016 01:29 PM, hellekin wrote:
https://beta.devuan.org
Just from a quick glance, it looks really nice - much better than the
current site.
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On 04/22/2016 05:57 AM, Mitt Green wrote:
Rob van der Putten wrote:
Which desktops work without systemd?
A list would be nice.
Every desktop environment is known
to work without systemd. GNOME3 works
on Funtoo, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD,
DragonflyBSD. It depends on the
distribution itself.
On 04/22/2016 01:51 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
Didier Kryn wrote:
hellekin a écrit :
Does apulse serve for anything else than running non-free spyware?
Probably not. The author states that his goal was to run Skype test
call, and after he achieved this goal, the project has just been stale.
Gregory Nowak wrote:
> On a related note, I recently had to replace my almost 20-year-old hp
> laserJet 5l because the part that broke couldn't be replaced. So, I
> replaced it with a samsung m28253dw. I was struggling to configure
> everything how I wanted through a less than fully accessible we
Didier Kryn wrote:
> You can configure cups through the web interface or by editing the config
> files. Editing the config files is easy, apart from understanding the meaning
> of the variables from their names. But there are howtos. For one-time actions
> like resuming operation of a printe
On 04/23/2016 01:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:18:56 +0200
Didier Kryn wrote:
Interesting discussion on Microsoft involvement with Linux:
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/Hating-Microsoft
I cite a sentence:
"More r
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