On Sunday 28 July 2013 10:29:47 Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> 17. there's no need to work on this, "technical" users will know how to
> set up an MTA → that's what Solaris people thought before Linux people ate
> their lunch integrating stuff they didn't want to bother with
Very good example, it's cal
On Sunday 28 July 2013 08:01:25 Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 09:56:16AM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> > 1. By the same logic we can ship just a browser, why bother building
> >LibreOffice if many use just google-docs?
> Because not everyone uses Google Docs, and so any solutio
Am 27.07.2013 21:31, schrieb Michael Scherer:
> Le samedi 27 juillet 2013 à 12:54 +0200, Reindl Harald a écrit :
>>
>> Am 27.07.2013 12:45, schrieb drago01:
>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
> Even if we do that ... for most of those user this mails are mostly noise.
Le Sam 27 juillet 2013 21:31, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> Sure, so that's 1 person. No, find just a bit more and we will start to
> be able to have proper data instead of anecdote.
I'm quite sure you'll find more than a bit more such users among Fedora
users. And, btw, the burden of proof is on
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 09:56:16AM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> On Saturday 27 July 2013 18:36:23 Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > Really? I'd expect most users to be using gmail at this point. Any
> > solution needs to account for them as well.
>
> 1. By the same logic we can ship just a browser, why bot
On Saturday 27 July 2013 18:36:23 Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 01:12:25PM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> > On the other hand, aliasing root to the installing user in /etc/aliases
> > is trivial and adding the local spool mailbox as a default to MUA's
> > would make these mails *vis
On Sun, 2013-07-28 at 00:10 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Lars Seipel wrote:
> > The thing is: is it acceptable that, in the process of reaching that
> > goal, we end up alienating (a part of) the more technical userbase (who
> > are much more likely contributors)?
>
>
On 7/27/2013 6:31 PM, David wrote:
> On 7/27/2013 6:10 PM, drago01 wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Lars Seipel wrote:
>>> The thing is: is it acceptable that, in the process of reaching that
>>> goal, we end up alienating (a part of) the more technical userbase (who
>>> are much more l
On 7-27-13 12:11:03 Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Sat, 2013-07-27 at 12:54 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >
> > so i am maintaing more than 20 fedora machines
>
> The typical user will have exactly one Fedora desktop.
/me counts my desktop systems. 1. Check.
> He will never
> ever look at his sy
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Lars Seipel wrote:
> The thing is: is it acceptable that, in the process of reaching that
> goal, we end up alienating (a part of) the more technical userbase (who
> are much more likely contributors)?
No one is alienating anyone. A "technical" user knows what he
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:55:58PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
> Which excludes you from the type of user I was talking about.
I have no data to back this up but I'd guess that the vast majority of
Fedora's userbase _are_ technical users. It's certainly a noble goal to
make Fedora more accesible to non-
Le samedi 27 juillet 2013 à 12:54 +0200, Reindl Harald a écrit :
>
> Am 27.07.2013 12:45, schrieb drago01:
> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
> >>> Even if we do that ... for most of those user this mails are mostly noise.
> >>
> >> Where are the facts backing this assertion?
>
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 01:12:25PM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> On the other hand, aliasing root to the installing user in /etc/aliases
> is trivial and adding the local spool mailbox as a default to MUA's
> would make these mails *visible by default* to that user.
Really? I'd expect most users to
On Sat, 2013-07-27 at 12:54 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> so i am maintaing more than 20 fedora machines
The typical user will have exactly one Fedora desktop. He will never
ever look at his system logs. If you told him that his computer can send
him email, his head would explode.
You can yum
Am 27.07.2013 12:45, schrieb drago01:
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
>>> Even if we do that ... for most of those user this mails are mostly noise.
>>
>> Where are the facts backing this assertion?
>
> Common sense ...
so i am maintaing more than 20 fedora machines and i a
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 27.07.2013 12:45, schrieb drago01:
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
Even if we do that ... for most of those user this mails are mostly noise.
>>>
>>> Where are the facts backing this assertion?
>>
>> Common s
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
wrote:
>
> Le Sam 27 juillet 2013 12:23, drago01 a écrit :
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Oron Peled wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Friday 26 July 2013 08:06:10 drago01 wrote:
Well it is a desktop spin after all. Most of the "keep sendma
Le Sam 27 juillet 2013 12:23, drago01 a écrit :
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Oron Peled wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Friday 26 July 2013 08:06:10 drago01 wrote:
>>> Well it is a desktop spin after all. Most of the "keep sendmail and
>>> syslog" arguments where more server related things.
>>
>
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Oron Peled wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Friday 26 July 2013 08:06:10 drago01 wrote:
>> Well it is a desktop spin after all. Most of the "keep sendmail and
>> syslog" arguments where more server related things.
>
> Definitely not. On our desktop installs we clearly have a
Hi,
On Friday 26 July 2013 08:06:10 drago01 wrote:
> Well it is a desktop spin after all. Most of the "keep sendmail and
> syslog" arguments where more server related things.
Definitely not. On our desktop installs we clearly have an interactive
user which is defined during install/firstboot/etc
On 07/26/2013 04:16 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" (johan...@gmail.com) said:
Heck maybe the Anaconda team would be willing to come up with or
accept patches that will even present this in the installer in a
spoke in a user friendly manner.
Software selection in anaconda *di
Bastien Nocera (bnoc...@redhat.com) said:
> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for
> those features, then it looks like a waste of time, that work has been
> done.
And? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.)
I mean, it's part of working in a commu
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 4:23 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
wrote:
> On 07/26/2013 01:47 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
>>
>> Unless you are willing to change the definition of "default" from
>> "spin" to "product", and making product something more broadly
>> governed, you're going to be stuck playing these
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" (johan...@gmail.com) said:
> Heck maybe the Anaconda team would be willing to come up with or
> accept patches that will even present this in the installer in a
> spoke in a user friendly manner.
Software selection in anaconda *didn't* have a default in the redesigned UI
f
On Fri, 2013-07-26 at 08:47 +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 07/25/2013 11:09 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> > default install -> what you get when you put the DVD in and do a click
> > through install.
>
> The DVD is controlled by RELENG
>
> > default spin -> The GNOME desktop livec
On 07/26/2013 01:47 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
Unless you are willing to change the definition of "default" from
"spin" to "product", and making product something more broadly
governed, you're going to be stuck playing these games. If you aren't
willing to do that, then you're limited to asking spins
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 02:31:48PM +0200, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller
wrote:
> There is nothing in the Ring proposal which would make any of this any
> easier as it is. It is not going to be any easier to agree what is 'ring
> 1' than it currently is to agree what is @standard. Only if the
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:04:30AM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > I think you missed my point, but you got the gist. We have way more
> > important things to discuss than sendmail.
> Yes, like the toxic atmosphere on our mailing lists. I don't agree with
> Lennart's position, but that doesn't m
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-lis
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 16:20 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> (/me notes that if mattdm's Ring 1 was defined, this might be somewhat
> easier to decide upon. If sendmail was in Ring 1 it would be an expected
> part of the Fedora Platform. Anything general purpose and carrying the name
> Fedora wou
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Michael Scherer wrote:
> Le jeudi 25 juillet 2013 à 11:55 -0700, Adam Williamson a écrit :
>> On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> > On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Partially accepted Chang
Le jeudi 25 juillet 2013 à 11:55 -0700, Adam Williamson a écrit :
> On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
> >
> > > Partially accepted Changes
> > > * No Default Sendmail -
> > > https://fedoraproject.o
On 07/25/2013 10:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
- Original Message -
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
Partially accepted Changes
* No Default Sendmail -
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes
On Fri, 26.07.13 08:47, Brendan Jones (brendan.jones...@gmail.com) wrote:
> On 07/26/2013 01:47 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >
> >[1] "Onsen", in Berlin-Friedrichshain (recommended)
> >
> Hmmm I must try it. Hard to find real Japanese in this city.
It's not a "real" Japanese. I think it's run
Marcela Mašláňová píše v Pá 26. 07. 2013 v 10:33 +0200:
> On 07/26/2013 01:20 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> >> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera
> >>> wrote:
> >
- Original Message -
> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for
> >> those features, then it looks like a waste of time, that work has been
> >> done.
>
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 06:29:47PM -0700, Dan Mashal wrote:
> I think you missed my point, but you got the gist. We have way more
> important things to discuss than sendmail.
Yes, like the toxic atmosphere on our mailing lists. I don't agree with
Lennart's position, but that doesn't mean that yo
On 07/25/2013 11:09 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
default install -> what you get when you put the DVD in and do a click
through install.
The DVD is controlled by RELENG
default spin -> The GNOME desktop livecd.
While the GNOME SIG controls their live spin
If one makes a side by side i
On 07/26/2013 01:20 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for those
On 07/26/2013 01:47 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
[1] "Onsen", in Berlin-Friedrichshain (recommended)
Hmmm I must try it. Hard to find real Japanese in this city.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-lis
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 18:48 -0700, Dan Mashal wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >
> > On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Dan Mashal wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lennart Poettering
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "He" didn't depart from the meeting. He was at d
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Dan Mashal wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lennart Poettering
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "He" didn't depart from the meeting. He was at dinner with friends and
>>> only had a peek every now and then on his
On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Dan Mashal wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lennart Poettering
> wrote:
>>
>> "He" didn't depart from the meeting. He was at dinner with friends and
>> only had a peek every now and then on his phone while having some
>> delicious Japanese food [1] which t
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Dan Mashal
>>
>>
>> Your attitude is atrocious. Go start your own distro. You already
>> ruined ours with systemd and PulseAudio. Stop acting like you own
>> everything. We have boards, comittees, an
Hi
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Dan Mashal
>
> Your attitude is atrocious. Go start your own distro. You already
> ruined ours with systemd and PulseAudio. Stop acting like you own
> everything. We have boards, comittees, and plenty of intelligent
> people to decide things.
>
Please don't a
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lennart Poettering
wrote:
> On Thu, 25.07.13 17:59, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote:
>
>> After some reasonable dialog on the issue FESCo meeting, it was clear
>> he wasn't going to immediately get exactly what he wanted without any
>> challenge. So he de
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-lis
On Thu, 25.07.13 17:59, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote:
> After some reasonable dialog on the issue FESCo meeting, it was clear
> he wasn't going to immediately get exactly what he wanted without any
> challenge. So he departed the meeting. In his absence, FESCo decided
> to compromise
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 05:09:54PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for
> >> those features, then it looks like a wast
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:09 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> >> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for
> >> those features, then it looks like a waste of ti
On 25 July 2013 16:59, Billy Crook wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for
>> those features, then it looks like a waste of time, that work has been done.
>
> Unfeatures technically. He wanted to
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> Given the amount of time that he spent on the mailing-list fighting for those
> features, then it looks like a waste of time, that work has been done.
Unfeatures technically. He wanted to remove features from the Default
spin. Subtracti
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 04:36:20PM -0400, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > > On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Partially accepted Changes
> > > > * No Default Se
- Original Message -
> On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
> >
> > > Partially accepted Changes
> > > * No Default Sendmail -
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSendmail -
>
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 17:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
>
> > Partially accepted Changes
> > * No Default Sendmail -
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSendmail -
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/piper
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 14:39 +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> Greeting!
> This is a summary of accepted Fedora 20 Changes by FESCo for week 30
> (2013-07-24 meeting).
Thanks Jaro! Could you folks please review the Visible Cloud Change as a
priority at the next meeting? If that's accepted it will re
On Thu, 25.07.13 14:39, Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) wrote:
> Partially accepted Changes
> * No Default Sendmail -
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSendmail -
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185328.html
>
> Sendmail will be removed from @core
Greeting!
This is a summary of accepted Fedora 20 Changes by FESCo for week 30
(2013-07-24 meeting).
= System Wide Changes =
* Unversioned Docdirs -
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UnversionedDocdirs discussed on
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185633.html
* A
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