On 1/29/20 3:15 PM, Alex Scheel wrote:
> I lump the Java SE platform into "roughly" what I was calling the JVM
> team. You're roughly the group that does what'd be the "core" work in
> other languages: maintains the compilers and the stdlib. My terminology
> there was incorrect; I suppose "JRE" is
- Original Message -
> From: "Stephen John Smoogen"
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 8:47:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Java Dev Group and Fedora Quality
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 05:14, Andrew
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 05:14, Andrew Haley wrote:
>
> On 1/27/20 3:13 PM, Alex Scheel wrote:
> > N.B.: I'd like to thank the Red Hat JVM team for being solid in
> > their Fedora execution. But they maintain only the JVM, and not
> > the rest of the Java ecosystem. :-)
>
> Thank you.
>
> One (perha
That's one of the big reasons I like Red Hat. You guys rock! :-)
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020, 5:14:18 AM EST, Andrew Haley
wrote:
On 1/27/20 3:13 PM, Alex Scheel wrote:
> N.B.: I'd like to thank the Red Hat JVM team for being solid in
> their Fedora execution. But they maintain onl
On 1/27/20 3:13 PM, Alex Scheel wrote:
> N.B.: I'd like to thank the Red Hat JVM team for being solid in
> their Fedora execution. But they maintain only the JVM, and not
> the rest of the Java ecosystem. :-)
Thank you.
One (perhaps) rather minor point in the middle of this important
discussion:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 12:18 AM Neal Gompa wrote:
> Honestly, the correct thing is to make it so the maven to RPM
> interface is as transparent as possible. We've done a reasonably good
> job with this in Rust, Ruby, and Python, and the situation is (slowly)
> improving in Go. But nobody has sat
That is a very helpful explanation. I do have a lot of repos configured but
most are necessary. Some are now added by gnome-software.
_copr_phracek-PyCharm.repo fedora-updates.repo
rpmfusion-nonfree-nvidia-driver.repo
dropbox.repo fedora-updates-testing-modular
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:44 PM Mario Torre wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 7:11 PM Robbie Harwood wrote:
>
> > Java packaging being extremely difficult is not a Fedora-specific
> > problem. The modularity effects are, but the packaging has been
> > known-hard for a very long time in many dis
On 1/26/20 5:33 PM, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
When I type "sudo dnf install something" it takes about 10 minutes to pull
updates from every repository, every time I run dnf. The actual install or update
proceeds at a reasonable pace. I wouldn't call it fast. I could send you a video of th
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:01 PM Mario Torre wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:28 PM Robbie Harwood wrote:
>
> > > You would not expect a GCC devroom to be concerned about the problems
> > > of all packages written in C and C++, so why would Java be any
> > > different?
> >
> > Honestly? I tot
* Bill Chatfield via devel [26/01/2020 22:33] :
>
> I don't know if the problem is dnf or a library, but it is a serious problem.
There are several issues here:
- Different servers will transmit repository metadata at different speeds
and you need to factor these out when trying to find bottlen
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 7:11 PM Robbie Harwood wrote:
> Java packaging being extremely difficult is not a Fedora-specific
> problem. The modularity effects are, but the packaging has been
> known-hard for a very long time in many distros (and even outside a
> distro context, it's not fun to work
tMario Torre writes:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:28 PM Robbie Harwood wrote:
>
>>> You would not expect a GCC devroom to be concerned about the
>>> problems of all packages written in C and C++, so why would Java be
>>> any different?
>>
>> Honestly? I totally would expect that. Wouldn't that
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:28 PM Robbie Harwood wrote:
> > You would not expect a GCC devroom to be concerned about the problems
> > of all packages written in C and C++, so why would Java be any
> > different?
>
> Honestly? I totally would expect that. Wouldn't that be better for
> everyone?
>
Andrew Haley writes:
> On 1/26/20 11:52 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 10:10 +, Andrew Haley a écrit :
>>> On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
>>>
Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
least. You can see how much Red
Le 2020-01-27 15:46, Mario Torre a écrit :
You keep ignoring that a large part of the packaged ecosystem comes
from different places and is maintained by different people,
That’s why coordination conferences like the FOSDEM exist.
and not everything is in a state of chaos as you imply
Othe
- Original Message -
> From: "Tom Seewald"
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2020 12:35:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Java Dev Group and Fedora Quality
>
> > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:07 PM Bill Chatfield via devel
> *snip*
> >
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Nicolas Mailhot
wrote:
> When a community driven conference grows to the size and reach of FOSDEM
> yes you can infer quite a lot from its schedule (one could do the same,
> removing the community word, for things where community is not relevant;
> that’s how half
Le 2020-01-27 15:13, Mario Torre a écrit :
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:53 PM Nicolas Mailhot via devel
wrote:
Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 10:10 +, Andrew Haley a écrit :
> On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
>
> > Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:53 PM Nicolas Mailhot via devel
wrote:
>
> Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 10:10 +, Andrew Haley a écrit :
> > On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
> >
> > > Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
> > > least. You can see how much Re
Le 2020-01-27 10:52, Andrew Haley a écrit :
You would not expect a GCC devroom to be concerned about the problems
of all packages written in C and C++, so why would Java be any
different?
I would expect a GCC devroom to be concerned about the problems of all
packages written in C and C++ once
On 27/01/2020 12:01, Adam Williamson wrote:
I don't know in detail how apt works, but IIRC (sorry if I'm wrong), in
a previous discussion of this it's been suggested that the difference
is apt doesn't refresh this data unless you explicitly ask it to, while
dnf does automatically refresh it on m
On Sun, 2020-01-26 at 22:33 +, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
> > That's not really fair. DNF is pretty much only the user interface,
> > and everything it's built on top of (hawkey, librepo, libsolv) is
> > implemented in C / C++. And when I think back to using yum, dnf is
> > really fast :)
On 1/26/20 11:52 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 10:10 +, Andrew Haley a écrit :
>> On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
>>
>>> Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
>>> least. You can see how much Red Hat Java leadership cares abo
Dne 26. 01. 20 v 23:33 Bill Chatfield via devel napsal(a):
>> You're right. The Java SIG was not organised around an account group,
>> so it does not exist. I don't know why it is that way, but that could
>> easily be fixed - other language interest groups are organised this
>> way, after all (pyt
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:33:55 -, you wrote:
>> That's not really fair. DNF is pretty much only the user interface,
>> and everything it's built on top of (hawkey, librepo, libsolv) is
>> implemented in C / C++. And when I think back to using yum, dnf is
>> really fast :)
>> I don't know which
> You're right. The Java SIG was not organised around an account group,
> so it does not exist. I don't know why it is that way, but that could
> easily be fixed - other language interest groups are organised this
> way, after all (python-sig, go-sig, ruby-sig, etc.).
I don't really understand wha
I understand it can be done. But in the past getting something to work in wine
is a guessing game. The instructions don't work. Winetricks doesn't get you to
a functioning game and PlayOnLinux was for a long time non-functional in Fedora
as the windows would not display properly. So getting a si
> Well, I don't know if its indicative of what they use for development,
> but at Red Hat Summit last year, *all* the Java middleware demos were
> on macOS.
That is frustrating and I don't like it. But, I suppose it makes since if their
customers are using Macs to do development work and then dep
Great info. Thanks! It's always more complicated than I first imagine. :-)
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Yea, I understand what you're saying.
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I will do that. Thanks.
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I hear what you're saying. But I am undeterred. :-)
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So I need to fix something that is a one-person job to get started.
On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:04:06 PM EST, Felix Schwarz
wrote:
Am 26.01.20 um 01:10 schrieb Bill Chatfield via devel:
> That's a very sad story. I had no idea. So it sounds like you mainly need
> maintainers for J
Am 26.01.20 um 01:10 schrieb Bill Chatfield via devel:
> That's a very sad story. I had no idea. So it sounds like you mainly need
> maintainers for Java packages. I have worked on building RPMs but I have
> never been a package maintainer. However I have 20 years of experience as a
> Java deve
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:36 PM Tom Seewald wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:07 PM Bill Chatfield via devel
> *snip*
> > True. Nobody cares about Java packages in fedora, not even Red Hat
> > employees. If you look at the members of the Java SIG, a lot of them
> > were (or still are) Red H
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:07 PM Bill Chatfield via devel
*snip*
> True. Nobody cares about Java packages in fedora, not even Red Hat
> employees. If you look at the members of the Java SIG, a lot of them
> were (or still are) Red Hat employees. For example, even JBoss /
> WildFly (a pretty big J
On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 5:07 PM Bill Chatfield via devel
wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find out what's going on with Java in Fedora. Fedora 31 was
> released with a broken Eclipse. I subscribe to the java-devel mailing list
> but there is no traffic there. If I go to "Join a Group" and click on "J"
Hi Bill,
On 25/01/2020 23:06, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
In another case I tried to set up a Fedora system to run games, as that is what
kids want to do. That was an utter failure because Fedora can't run any game
that kids want to run today. The ability to run games cannot be underestima
Unfortunately, I also experience several issues with using Eclipse in Fedora.
Actually the standard Eclipse package is not working well, and I am confused by
the regular package and modular package mixture.
See also what I wrote at:
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/status-of-eclipse-in-fedora/51
On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:07 PM Bill Chatfield via devel
wrote:
Hi again,
I have a bit more time today, so I can respond to your more of your
arguments directly.
> I'm trying to find out what's going on with Java in Fedora. Fedora 31 was
> released with a broken Eclipse. I subscribe to the ja
Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 10:10 +, Andrew Haley a écrit :
> On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
>
> > Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
> > least. You can see how much Red Hat Java leadership cares about the
> > situation by consulting next week’s
On 1/26/20 8:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
> Java has been in a terminal course in Fedora for a year at
> least. You can see how much Red Hat Java leadership cares about the
> situation by consulting next week’s Java dev room schedule. Red Hat
> is co- organisator of this dev room
> http
Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 05:25 +, Bill Chatfield via devel a
écrit :
> And if the Gnome guys actually had information like this, they'd be
> forced to deal with it.
Forcing people does not work that well in real life, and even less in
free software circles where participation is voluntar
On Sat, 2020-01-25 at 22:06 +, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
> You need automated tests. You need a suit of manual tests. For every package.
So to chime in on the QA aspects of this: the above is not
realistically possible, and it's also an explicit non-goal of all QA
and CI efforts.
We hav
* Bill Chatfield via devel [25/01/2020 23:23] :
>
> I'd be willing to work on that if I can figure out how to recreate the group.
> Can you point me in the right direction?
SIGs are rather informal and none of them have a joining procedure
that I know of. That said, this was already discussed on t
Le dimanche 26 janvier 2020 à 00:10 +, Bill Chatfield via devel a
écrit :
> That's a very sad story. I had no idea. So it sounds like you mainly
> need maintainers for Java packages. I have worked on building RPMs
> but I have never been a package maintainer. However I have 20 years
> of experi
On 1/25/20 9:25 PM, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
I think that by applying basic engineering techniques like user testing we can
weed out ideologies that don't provide any value to users. Do the testing and
let the results decide.The principles of ISO 9000 can be applied to improve
products.
I appreciate the sensibility of your suggestion but I'm afraid that I enjoy the
aggravation of my love/hate relationship with Gnome too much. You got me
thinking though.
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On 1/26/20 8:25 AM, Bill Chatfield via devel wrote:
I think that by applying basic engineering techniques like user testing we can
weed out ideologies that don't provide any value to users. Do the testing and
let the results decide.The principles of ISO 9000 can be applied to improve
products
I think that by applying basic engineering techniques like user testing we can
weed out ideologies that don't provide any value to users. Do the testing and
let the results decide.The principles of ISO 9000 can be applied to improve
products. There are also metrics that can measure how good a us
No problem. I like hearing peoples' opinions.
I will look for a package that might be a good starting point.
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Hello Bill,
And sorry for digressing.
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 1:10 AM Bill Chatfield via devel
wrote:
>
> That's a very sad story. I had no idea. So it sounds like you mainly need
> maintainers for Java packages. I have worked on building RPMs but I have
> never been a package maintainer. Howe
On 1/25/20 7:30 PM, Alexander Ploumistos wrote:
Hello Ty,
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 1:42 AM Ty Young wrote:
The unfortunate reality is that none of what you describe will likely
change in any significant way, at least not with the standard Linux
distros(Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Arch) etc. Too mu
Hello Ty,
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 1:42 AM Ty Young wrote:
>
> The unfortunate reality is that none of what you describe will likely
> change in any significant way, at least not with the standard Linux
> distros(Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Arch) etc. Too much of Linux is ideology
> based(GNU, among o
On 1/25/20 7:12 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 7:42 PM Ty Young wrote:
You miss the point of how FOSS projects work. Read up on some history
and get some understanding of the cultural background before you
blithely say that ideology and passion are what is killing Linux
distros.
On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 7:42 PM Ty Young wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
>
> Not an average Fedora user but I've used several Linux
> distributions(including Fedora and versions there of) over the years.
> What you are bringing up is 100% valid and isn't new or specific to
> Fedora. It's been a known and
Hi Bill,
Not an average Fedora user but I've used several Linux
distributions(including Fedora and versions there of) over the years.
What you are bringing up is 100% valid and isn't new or specific to
Fedora. It's been a known and valid complaint that there isn't enough
software in distro
That's a very sad story. I had no idea. So it sounds like you mainly need
maintainers for Java packages. I have worked on building RPMs but I have never
been a package maintainer. However I have 20 years of experience as a Java
developer, so I'm pretty confident I can be helpful. How should I go
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:24 AM Bill Chatfield via devel
wrote:
>
> > As has been discussed time and time again on this mailing list, the last
> > member of the Java SIG left it at the end of 2018, leaving the group emptIy.
> I'd be willing to work on that if I can figure out how to recreate th
> As has been discussed time and time again on this mailing list, the last
> member of the Java SIG left it at the end of 2018, leaving the group emptIy.
I'd be willing to work on that if I can figure out how to recreate the group.
Can you point me in the right direction?
> There are several FA
* Bill Chatfield via devel [25/01/2020 22:06] :
>
> I'm trying to find out what's going on with Java in Fedora. Fedora 31 was
> released with a broken Eclipse. I subscribe to the java-devel mailing list
> but there is no traffic there.
As has been discussed time and time again on this mailing li
I'm trying to find out what's going on with Java in Fedora. Fedora 31 was
released with a broken Eclipse. I subscribe to the java-devel mailing list but
there is no traffic there. If I go to "Join a Group" and click on "J" there is
simply nothing there...
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/account
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