Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 9:43 AM Charalampos Stratakis wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Michael Catanzaro" > > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > > > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 3:37:34 PM >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 06. 04. 20 15:37, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:08 pm, Charalampos Stratakis wrote: It is reasonable to provide a pull request to fix potential issues with ELN. What is not reasonable, is to impose a time limit and also expect the maintainers to follow up with that. I

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

- Original Message - > From: "Michael Catanzaro" > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 3:37:34 PM > Subject: Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose > V3 > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:08 pm, Charalampos Stratakis wrote: It is reasonable to provide a pull request to fix potential issues with ELN. What is not reasonable, is to impose a time limit and also expect the maintainers to follow up with that. If allowing the ELN maintainers to fix build fail

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

- Original Message - > From: "Stephen Gallagher" > To: devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org, "Development discussions related > to Fedora" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 5:31:38 PM > Subject: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildr

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 8:32 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: ... > >> For the stated reasons I am *-1 for this change in its current form*. > > > > That is your privilege as a member of FESCo. As I've said, however, I > > think you've misunderstood the situation. > > Do you want to leave it at "this is your

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 8:31 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > To clarify: In Fedora Core/Extras the separation was by access permissions. > Here > it is based on knowledge and interests (or a lack thereof). People with zero > knowledge and interest in "RHEL next" development will not be able to > contr

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 02. 04. 20 20:07, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: The change proposal received overly negative feedback by the packager community as represented both by RHEL¹ and non-RHEL maintainers. Despite being reworked several times, none of this feedback wa

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 02. 04. 20 19:21, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote: While benefiting the entire Fedora/RHEL/CentOS/EPEL ecosystem is certainly a good goal, I believe that doing this in a way that alienates a significant part of our packagers is a disservice to Fedora. The concerned packagers believe that Fedora is (

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 2020-04-03 14:43, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote: On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:59 AM Petr Viktorin wrote: On 2020-04-02 20:07, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: The change proposal received overly negative feedback by the packager community as represent

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 03. 04. 20 20:23, Stephen Gallagher wrote: Fabio Valenti made this comment in the FESCo ticket[1]. "Side note: I think more people would be amenable to including "conditionals" into their packages if they weren't only shown off as `%if eln this else that`. I think there's more value in doing

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 8:23 PM Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 1:27 PM Matthew Miller > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 10:32:31PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote: > > > Would it be possible to formalize the kind of spec processing ELN wants > > > available in a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 1:27 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 10:32:31PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote: > > Would it be possible to formalize the kind of spec processing ELN wants > > available in a set of generic operations with generic arguments (or > > control variab

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 10:32:31PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote: > Would it be possible to formalize the kind of spec processing ELN wants > available in a set of generic operations with generic arguments (or > control variables)? > > I would not mind seeing a set of ELN macro calls in m

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:59 AM Petr Viktorin wrote: > > On 2020-04-02 20:07, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: > >> The change proposal received overly negative feedback by the packager > >> community > >> as represented both by RHEL¹ and non-RHEL

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 2020-04-02 20:07, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: The change proposal received overly negative feedback by the packager community as represented both by RHEL¹ and non-RHEL maintainers. Despite being reworked several times, none of this feedback wa

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 02. 04. 20 20:07, Stephen Gallagher wrote: This is a great example of the Nirvana Fallacy. Essentially, you are arguing that improvements for one group is not acceptable unless it improves things for every other group too. (I will answer the entire e-mail hopefully later today, but I could n

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 03. 04. 20 v 10:46 Vít Ondruch napsal(a): > > > Dne 02. 04. 20 v 21:38 Kalev Lember napsal(a): >> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:10 PM Stephen Gallagher > > wrote: >> >> And having to manually perform a sync between those packages for >> every >> update is som

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 02. 04. 20 v 21:38 Kalev Lember napsal(a): > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:10 PM Stephen Gallagher > wrote: > > And having to manually perform a sync between those packages for every > update is somehow less work > There are two things: 1) Of course I don't ex

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 03:56:05PM -0400, David Cantrell wrote: > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 05:32:08PM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: > > Of course what can go into Rawhide should go into Rawhide, but that are > > not ELN/RHEL conditionals. > > I think this is part of what ELN is trying to address to mak

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Le jeudi 02 avril 2020 à 16:04 -0400, David Cantrell a écrit : > > > * We could force all ELN builds to have epoch+100 when they rebuild > > (this has problems with future updates). > > No need to modify the Epoch. And not advisable. Wild idea (perhaps completely unworkable): upstream packagers

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 03:55:19PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:24 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 11:40:49AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 01,

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 05:32:08PM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 01. 04. 20 v 16:01 David Cantrell napsal(a): On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 10:19:08AM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: So although this update clarifies some part, we have not moved anywhere: ~~~ === Can we do this in a branch instead of i

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:10 PM Stephen Gallagher wrote: > And having to manually perform a sync between those packages for every > update is somehow less work than *checks notes* adding some > conditionals once and then letting it get pulled from the master > branch thereafter? I don't understand

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 2:07 pm, Stephen Gallagher wrote: We've collected the feedback in good faith, examined it and then identified shortcomings with it. For the sake of clarity in the Change Proposal, I've recorded that reasoning there. I don't have any comment on the overall proposal, I j

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:02 PM Vít Ondruch wrote: > > > Dne 02. 04. 20 v 20:07 Stephen Gallagher napsal(a): > > but I *did* > > acknowledge that we are going to incorporate the possibility of > > maintaining separate specs for ELN and Rawhide for any maintainer who > > absolutely wants to do more

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 02. 04. 20 v 21:01 Vít Ondruch napsal(a): > Dne 02. 04. 20 v 20:07 Stephen Gallagher napsal(a): >> but I *did* >> acknowledge that we are going to incorporate the possibility of >> maintaining separate specs for ELN and Rawhide for any maintainer who >> absolutely wants to do more manual work.

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 02. 04. 20 v 17:39 Stephen Gallagher napsal(a): > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:34 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 03:55:19PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:24 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek >>> wrote: >> I disagree, both to "aren't

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 02. 04. 20 v 20:07 Stephen Gallagher napsal(a): > but I *did* > acknowledge that we are going to incorporate the possibility of > maintaining separate specs for ELN and Rawhide for any maintainer who > absolutely wants to do more manual work. You see, this is precisely the point where the di

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: > The change proposal received overly negative feedback by the packager > community > as represented both by RHEL¹ and non-RHEL maintainers. Despite being reworked > several times, none of this feedback was reflected in the proposal, only new >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 07:21:33PM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote: > ELN is a tool to develop Fedora. Conditionals for ELN packages are going > to be applied in those places where it makes sense and where it is > approved by the Fedora packager. Yes, we believe that adding the > flexibility in Fe

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Hi, Miro, On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 6:56 PM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 31. 03. 20 17:31, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly > > managed to injure myself and be away from email until today. I've read > > through the email threads again thi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 31. 03. 20 17:31, Stephen Gallagher wrote: I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly managed to injure myself and be away from email until today. I've read through the email threads again this morning and I decided that, rather than try to address them one by one, I'd

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:34 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 03:55:19PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:24 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > > wrote: > I disagree, both to "aren't design documents" and to the usefulness of > providing d

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 03:55:19PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:24 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 11:40:49AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > > > wrote: > > > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 01. 04. 20 21:55, Stephen Gallagher wrote: Well, Change Proposals aren't design documents. I would prefer to change the document to read more like "This will need to be implemented in such a way that contents of the ELN repository would be preferred by the software management tools over the st

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:24 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 11:40:49AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > > wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 12:30:13PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > > On 0

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 11:40:49AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 12:30:13PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > On 01. 04. 20 10:53, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > > >On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:02 AM David Cantrell wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 10:19:08AM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: > >So although this update clarifies some part, we have not moved anywhere: > > > > > >~~~ > > > >=== Can we do this in a branch instead of in master? === > > > >This adds no valu

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 12:30:13PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 01. 04. 20 10:53, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > >On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:31:38AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > >>I sent out the V2 version of

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

Dne 01. 04. 20 v 16:01 David Cantrell napsal(a): > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 10:19:08AM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: >> So although this update clarifies some part, we have not moved anywhere: >> >> >> ~~~ >> >> === Can we do this in a branch instead of in master? === >> >> This adds no value to the cu

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 10:19:08AM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote: So although this update clarifies some part, we have not moved anywhere: ~~~ === Can we do this in a branch instead of in master? === This adds no value to the current approach where Red Hat maintainers would manually merge their ch

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

- Original Message - > From: "Vít Ondruch" > To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 10:19:08 AM > Subject: Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose > V3 > > So although this update clarifies some p

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 12:30:13PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > On 01. 04. 20 10:53, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > >On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:31:38AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > >>I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly > >>managed to injure myself and be a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:31 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 01. 04. 20 10:53, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:31:38AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > >> I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly > >> managed to injure myself and be away f

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On 01. 04. 20 10:53, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:31:38AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly managed to injure myself and be away from email until today. I've read through the email threads again th

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:31:38AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly > managed to injure myself and be away from email until today. I've read > through the email threads again this morning and I decided that, > rather than try to a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

So although this update clarifies some part, we have not moved anywhere: ~~~ === Can we do this in a branch instead of in master? === This adds no value to the current approach where Red Hat maintainers would manually merge their changes into the internal build infrastructure. There's no way to

Fedora 33 System-Wide Change Proposal: ELN Buildroot and Compose V3

I sent out the V2 version of the Change on Friday and then promptly managed to injure myself and be away from email until today. I've read through the email threads again this morning and I decided that, rather than try to address them one by one, I'd try again with a V3 that hopefully answers some