> Am 06.10.2021 um 17:04 schrieb Mikolaj Izdebski :
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:27 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Am 04.10.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Mikolaj Izdebski :
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:08 PM Peter Boy wrote:
However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing jav
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:27 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
>
> > Am 04.10.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Mikolaj Izdebski :
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:08 PM Peter Boy wrote:
> >> However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-maint-sig.
> >> What consequences do we draw from the analyses?
On 29. 09. 21 13:49, Miro HronΔok wrote:
On 26. 09. 21 21:20, Fabio Valentini wrote:
Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be removed?
Should the remaining ruins that used to be packages be orphaned?
Retired
On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 12:08, Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 04.10.2021 um 15:07 schrieb Mat Booth :
>
> Like many Open Source projects, Fedora is a "do-ocracyβ β β¦.
>
> A nice phrase with a decent connotation. And itβs true without doubt.
>
> And at the same time it is also true, Fedora as many othe
> Am 05.10.2021 um 14:56 schrieb Stephen Snow :
>
> Hello,
>
> (snip)
>
> So are the meetings being held with the java-sig? When are they? All of
> us interested java community members should attend I think if we want
> to offer an opinion or even just have something to say.
If you search fed
> (snip)
> You also need people who are good at documentation which frankly many
> developers are not. Be it a history of 'the only true documentation
> is
> the code' to 'look its simple why didn't you just no one would think of and impossible to document without knowing why
> it was chosen or u
Hello,
(snip)
> However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-
> maint-sig. What consequences do we draw from the analyses?
>
> Emmanuel Seyman has made some suggestions, about 16 posts back.Β
> Thoughts on those? I posted on the java list some ideas some time ago
> ('Empowering
On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 07:26, Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
>
> > Am 04.10.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Mikolaj Izdebski :
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:08 PM Peter Boy wrote:
> >> However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-maint-sig.
> >> What consequences do we draw from the analyses?
>
> Am 04.10.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Mikolaj Izdebski :
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:08 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>> However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-maint-sig.
>> What consequences do we draw from the analyses?
>
> β¦ If you want
> to improve docs, just do it. And so on.
> Am 04.10.2021 um 15:07 schrieb Mat Booth :
>
> Like many Open Source projects, Fedora is a "do-ocracyβ β β¦.
A nice phrase with a decent connotation. And itβs true without doubt.
And at the same time it is also true, Fedora as many other Open Source projects
is as well about coordination and
Hello,
I'm not a Fedora Maintainer, or packager, or developer. I was involved
more in marketing and more "people person"[1] stuff. I hope this can
close this thread.
This email has a specific goal, but it doesn't have a great title: For
starters, SIG can't die, because they aren't alive. Also the
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 3:08 PM Mat Booth wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 13:07, Peter Boy wrote:
> >
> > We had a spirited and detailed discussion so far. But nevertheless, I
> > think we are none the wiser at the moment. We have many informative
> > contributions to the discussion and analys
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:08 PM Peter Boy wrote:
> However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-maint-sig.
> What consequences do we draw from the analyses?
The java-maint-sig formal group ceased to exist. Java SIG continues to
exist as an informal group, in the shape it existe
On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 13:07, Peter Boy wrote:
>
> We had a spirited and detailed discussion so far. But nevertheless, I think
> we are none the wiser at the moment. We have many informative contributions
> to the discussion and analyses of the situation.
>
> However, we lack concepts on how to
We had a spirited and detailed discussion so far. But nevertheless, I think we
are none the wiser at the moment. We have many informative contributions to the
discussion and analyses of the situation.
However, we lack concepts on how to proceed after removing java-maint-sig. What
consequences
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 18:49, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>
> As an aside, I'm somewhat surprised that the only commit on the Java
> SIG's main wiki page in nearly 4 years is one that simply fixes a
> spelling mistake. This doesn't jive with the amount of discussion we've
> had on this list nor does
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 09:35:23AM -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> In the end, we have never been able to keep a pool of people
> interested in making Java work. We aren't the only ones as this
> problem occurs in Debian also (and it occurs in other languages like
> Ruby, JS, Python also). The
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 12:13 PM Fabio Valentini wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:17 AM Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:51 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
> > > Since the @java-maint-sig group is esentially non-responsive, I suggest
> > > we do
> > > the following:
> >
> >
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:17 AM Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:51 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
> > Since the @java-maint-sig group is esentially non-responsive, I suggest we
> > do
> > the following:
>
> Thanks for making this distinction - @java-maint-sig group is not the
> sa
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:51 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
> Since the @java-maint-sig group is esentially non-responsive, I suggest we do
> the following:
Thanks for making this distinction - @java-maint-sig group is not the
same as Java SIG.
Some of the most active members of Java SIG (like me or Open
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:06 PM PGNet Dev wrote:
>
> Many valid/interesting points being made. Most of them sound, reasonably,
> like developer-/maintainer-centric issues.
>
> Question: Is a primary goal of Fedora distro (JAVA sig, etc) to 'service' its
> (java app) users?
There is no single p
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 1:25 AM Mat Booth wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 23:48, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> > On that topic, I've just read an interview of Nicolas LΓ©cureuil, the
> > president of the Mageia board, in which he says that Mageia's Java stack
> > is based on Fedora's and that he int
Neal Gompa writes:
>>
>> On that topic, I've just read an interview of Nicolas LΓ©cureuil, the
>> president of the Mageia board, in which he says that Mageia's Java stack
>> is based on Fedora's and that he interacts with Fedora's Java team
>> (leading me to wonder who exactly he is interacting wi
Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
> Even in the case of SCM repositories committed binaries, allowing
> bundling would help a lot,
Well, we cannot allow just using the bundled binaries! There are various
technical and legal concerns that make this a no go. But:
> add some kind of automation that r
On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 00:23, Mat Booth wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 23:48, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> >
> > * Peter Boy [29/09/2021 23:29] :
> > >
> > > Any ideas to get it started to fly?
> >
> > The first step should be to empty the group in FAS and remove its
> > bugzilla account from co
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 23:48, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>
> * Peter Boy [29/09/2021 23:29] :
> >
> > Any ideas to get it started to fly?
>
> The first step should be to empty the group in FAS and remove its
> bugzilla account from component ownership in Bugzilla (I happen
> to think that this is not
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 6:48 PM Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>
> * Peter Boy [29/09/2021 23:29] :
> >
> > Any ideas to get it started to fly?
>
> The first step should be to empty the group in FAS and remove its
> bugzilla account from component ownership in Bugzilla (I happen
> to think that this is no
* Peter Boy [29/09/2021 23:29] :
>
> Any ideas to get it started to fly?
The first step should be to empty the group in FAS and remove its
bugzilla account from component ownership in Bugzilla (I happen
to think that this is not a good idea in general but it's even worse
when the group has no acti
> Am 29.09.2021 um 22:13 schrieb Karlis K. :
>
> This:
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fedora-Java-Rough-Shape
>
> Brought my attention, what can be done to help?
I take it as a question how to contribute to Fedora Java.
In the end, I guess, we will need to find a grou
> Am 29.09.2021 um 13:57 schrieb Fabio Valentini :
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:49 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
>>
>> On 26. 09. 21 21:20, Fabio Valentini wrote:
>>> Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
>>> still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be
This:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fedora-Java-Rough-Shape
Brought my attention, what can be done to help?
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> Am 29.09.2021 um 13:49 schrieb Miro HronΔok :
>
> Since many have moved this discussion away from this question, let me please
> bring back the main reason this was posted.
>
> Since the @java-maint-sig group is esentially non-responsive, I suggest we do
> the following:
>
>
> 1) We remove
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:49 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
>
> On 26. 09. 21 21:20, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> > Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
> > still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be removed?
> > Should the remaining ruins that used to be pack
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:50 PM Miro HronΔok wrote:
> On 26. 09. 21 21:20, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> > Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
> > still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be removed?
> > Should the remaining ruins that used to be packa
On 26. 09. 21 21:20, Fabio Valentini wrote:
Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be removed?
Should the remaining ruins that used to be packages be orphaned?
Retired? Buried? Forgotten?
Since many have mov
> Yeah, there's good tooling support for packaging software that uses
> ant and maven.
> And ant and maven themselves will also continue to be maintained by
> Mikolaj, as far as I know.
> Projects that use "pure" ant or maven to handle their dependencies and
> build are *very easy* to package for F
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:09 PM Florian Weimer wrote:
>
> * Christopher:
>
> > My main point here was that treating the community as a single SIG
> > makes no more sense than treating all packages whose software is
> > written in C as a single "C SIG" community. It's too overwhelming for
> > peopl
On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 2:26 PM Robert Marcano via devel
wrote:
>
> On 9/27/21 7:54 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> > Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
> >> I think the only way the Java ecosystem to survive in Fedora outside of
> >> OpenJDK and some core components is to allow bundling (Even Ja
On 9/27/21 7:54 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
I think the only way the Java ecosystem to survive in Fedora outside of
OpenJDK and some core components is to allow bundling (Even JavaScript
bundling is already allowed), but how do to it without compromising
sec
Florian Weimer wrote:
> Interesting. Could you provide an example of such a dynamically linked
> binary?
OCaml is interesting in that it does not use standard ELF .so files, but its
own dynamic linking mechanism (those .cma files).
This is a typical OCaml library (the ocaml-facile constraint sa
* Kevin Kofler via devel:
> Florian Weimer wrote:
>
>> * Kevin Kofler via devel:
>>
>>> (And for the record, I also think that Go and Rust should not work
>>> that way either! It is possible to build shared libraries of Go code,
>>> at least one Go toolchain supports it.)
>>
>> There is no stabl
Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Kevin Kofler via devel:
>
>> (And for the record, I also think that Go and Rust should not work
>> that way either! It is possible to build shared libraries of Go code,
>> at least one Go toolchain supports it.)
>
> There is no stable Go ABI. Even minor updates change
* Kevin Kofler via devel:
> (And for the record, I also think that Go and Rust should not work
> that way either! It is possible to build shared libraries of Go code,
> at least one Go toolchain supports it.)
There is no stable Go ABI. Even minor updates change ABI because type
sizes and struct
Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
> I think the only way the Java ecosystem to survive in Fedora outside of
> OpenJDK and some core components is to allow bundling (Even JavaScript
> bundling is already allowed), but how do to it without compromising
> security?
The problem is that Java projects typ
Am 27.09.21 um 15:09 schrieb Mario Torre:
However the majority of people just usually download Eclipse (or IntelliJ for
what matters) from the upstream website anyway, further suggesting that
maintaining Eclipse is not really a rewarding nor useful task.
Just my 2 Β’: Since I switched from upst
* Christopher:
> My main point here was that treating the community as a single SIG
> makes no more sense than treating all packages whose software is
> written in C as a single "C SIG" community. It's too overwhelming for
> people to be able to know how to step in and help.
I'm not sure this is
Hi,
""
I'm not sure what's the best solution, but I guess the number one
reason to have packages within the Fedora distribution is for a matter
of trust, if this is the case I would argue that a curated list of
maven packages served via a Fedora managed repository would be a
better investment.
""
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:52 AM Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Sept 2021 at 16:35, Christopher wrote:
> >
> > I think part of the problem is that Java is too big. There are too
> > many libraries to fit into a single community. I think there's
> > probably willing volunteers to mainta
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 5:23 PM Fabio Valentini wrote:
> I'm not sure about this (the internals of Red Hat are quite opaque),
> but as far as I know, are two different, non-overlapping teams
> involved here:
> One that maintains OpenJDK packages (which are fine), and one that
> maintains Java pac
So if you only rely in things like OpenJDK (like for running
Minecraft, as I do, too), then you'll be fine.
If you need ant or maven, you should be fine too, since those two (and
their dependencies) will continue to be maintained.
But everything else ... *tumbleweeds*
Just one user's snapshot; O
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:56 PM Martin Jackson wrote:
>
> For what it's worth...
>
> I use the OpenJDK on Fedora and I'm very happy with it. I do not use or
> need eclipse, or as fast as I can tell, any of the other tooling (e.g.
> packaged gradle and other things). My main uses are playing game
For what it's worth...
I use the OpenJDK on Fedora and I'm very happy with it.Β I do not use or
need eclipse, or as fast as I can tell, any of the other tooling (e.g.
packaged gradle and other things).Β My main uses are playing games that
depend on Java and are packaged and built outside the F
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:24:23AM -0400, Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
> 1. I propose that every package should use a modern Java build system that
> resolve dependencies (Maven, Gradle, Ant+Ivy, etc), If the package doesn't
> have that, a patch should be provided and contributed upstream.
Any
On 9/26/21 3:20 PM, Fabio Valentini wrote:
Good evening everybody,
Not sure why it's me who's writing this message, but somebody needs to do it.
Community maintenance of Java packages in Fedora is, for all intents
and purposes, dead. Mikolaj keeps a bare minimum of packages working
for the mave
Many valid/interesting points being made. Most of them sound, reasonably, like
developer-/maintainer-centric issues.
Question: Is a primary goal of Fedora distro (JAVA sig, etc) to 'service' its
(java app) users?
If so, what's the current understanding of a user-driven ProductRequirements
sp
On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 08:45, Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
>
> > Am 27.09.2021 um 12:30 schrieb Fabio Valentini :
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 12:19 PM Peter Boy wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Am 27.09.2021 um 11:13 schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon :
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:57:12AM +0200, Peter
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 10:36 PM Christopher wrote:
>
> I think part of the problem is that Java is too big. There are too
> many libraries to fit into a single community. I think there's
> probably willing volunteers to maintain some libraries and application
> packages, but these are not necessa
On Sun, 26 Sept 2021 at 16:35, Christopher wrote:
>
> I think part of the problem is that Java is too big. There are too
> many libraries to fit into a single community. I think there's
> probably willing volunteers to maintain some libraries and application
> packages, but these are not necessari
> Am 27.09.2021 um 12:30 schrieb Fabio Valentini :
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 12:19 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Am 27.09.2021 um 11:13 schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon :
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:57:12AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>>>
What do you want to gain from it? What
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 12:19 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
>
> > Am 27.09.2021 um 11:13 schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon :
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:57:12AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> What do you want to gain from it? What is the goal to be?
> >
> > I believe the original email from Fabio
> Am 27.09.2021 um 11:13 schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon :
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:57:12AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>>
>
>> What do you want to gain from it? What is the goal to be?
>
> I believe the original email from Fabio answers both of these questions.
I donβt find a plan or a goal.
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:57:12AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
> > Am 27.09.2021 um 10:47 schrieb Ankur Sinha :
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 21:20:07 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> >> Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
> >> still associated with? Should it be di
> Am 27.09.2021 um 10:47 schrieb Ankur Sinha :
>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 21:20:07 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote:
>> Should the @java-maint-sig group be removed from any packages it is
>> still associated with? Should it be dissolved, and members be removed?
>> Should the remaining ruins that used
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 21:20:07 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> Good evening everybody,
>
> Not sure why it's me who's writing this message, but somebody needs to do it.
>
> Community maintenance of Java packages in Fedora is, for all intents
> and purposes, dead. Mikolaj keeps a bare minimum of pa
I think part of the problem is that Java is too big. There are too
many libraries to fit into a single community. I think there's
probably willing volunteers to maintain some libraries and application
packages, but these are not necessarily the same people willing to do
all the work of maintaining
Good evening everybody,
Not sure why it's me who's writing this message, but somebody needs to do it.
Community maintenance of Java packages in Fedora is, for all intents
and purposes, dead. Mikolaj keeps a bare minimum of packages working
for the maven toolchain, but that's it. Fedora 35 will sh
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