Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 8:27 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:55:40PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > If I knew that this change would have caused that much mails I would > > have send a mail to current or whatever before and left the review > > opened for more time. > > Is

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 6:45 AM Alexander Leidinger wrote: > Quoting Emmanuel Vadot (from Fri, 22 Oct 2021 > 22:55:40 +0200): > > > I honestly thought that this setting was something that you setup once > > when you installed a new machine (which doesn't happens very often) and > > forget about

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

Quoting Emmanuel Vadot (from Fri, 22 Oct 2021 22:55:40 +0200): I honestly thought that this setting was something that you setup once when you installed a new machine (which doesn't happens very often) and forget about it, you know another "ah crap yes I forgot about this, why do we have suc

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 13:19:54 -0700 Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:47 AM Emmanuel Vadot > wrote: > > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) > > "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > > > > We need to STOP these "I dont like the 20 year old defaults, > > > so I am going to change

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:47 AM Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) > "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > > We need to STOP these "I dont like the 20 year old defaults, > > so I am going to change them to what I like and use" It is NOT > > forward progress on making a be

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:03:05 -0700 > > Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then >

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:30:40 -0700 Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:59:28AM -0600, Ian Lepore wrote: > I> On Fri, 2021-10-22 at 06:28 +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > I> > > Our users aren't so unsophisticated as to be totally swayed by the > I> > > choice of wording. > I> > > I

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:03:05 -0700 > > Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then > > >

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 2021-10-22 at 10:30 -0700, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > To sum up, we are asking semi-random set of people a question charged > with > a correct answer. What would you expect? I would expect the winning side to rejoice about the poll supporting their position while the losing side whines about t

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

Warner, sorry for top quoting. I love this email very much :) Can we please improve the tone of the bell? On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 10:55:00PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: W> FreeBSD controls the pitch and duration of the noise. And there's W> at least one bug in it. W> W> It looks like we want 800

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:59:28AM -0600, Ian Lepore wrote: I> On Fri, 2021-10-22 at 06:28 +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: I> > > Our users aren't so unsophisticated as to be totally swayed by the I> > > choice of wording. I> > I> > This is not how it works Warner, you don't first offer biased poll

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

Andriy Gapon wrote in <718707f9-57e9-057e-1811-f9229f2da...@freebsd.org>: |On 21/10/2021 22:52, Warner Losh wrote: ... |> https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 ... |Don't have we have anything better than twitter for such a poll? |Something on FreeBSD infra maybe? I am not

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

Shawn Webb wrote in <20211022134229.jrkkgahnu6bz2aec@mutt-hbsd>: ... |Tangentially related for curious minds: | |Tom Scott did a video in 2014 about how the types of trucks that beep |when reversing are changing from the traditional beep to a white noise |type of beep: https://www.youtube.co

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 01:56:32PM -0400, Jung-uk Kim wrote: J> >> S> This is completly disable speaker bell. J> >> J> >> Are you sure? I haven't yet upgraded my desktop to this point, so can't test. J> >> How is that possible that vt(4) affects X11? J> > J> > He could be right. I don't use vt,

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 09:58:31PM +0300, Vladimir Kondratyev wrote: V> On 21.10.2021 20:03, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: V> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: V> > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then V> > S> V> > S> This change disabl

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

> On 21/10/2021 22:52, Warner Losh wrote: > > This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... > > > > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 > > > I tried to abstain from this discussion on whether the bike she

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:03:05 -0700 > Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then > > S> > > S> This change disable bell in X11 too. > > S> This is completly disable

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, 2021-10-22 at 06:28 +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > Our users aren't so unsophisticated as to be totally swayed by the > > choice of wording. > > This is not how it works Warner, you don't first offer biased poll > and then defend skewed results by appealing to observed ratio and > how

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 10:55:00PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 9:17 PM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 01:52:26PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... > > > > > > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/st

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 12:28 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > This is not how it works Warner, you don't first offer biased poll > and then defend skewed results by appealing to observed ratio and > how smart your target audience is. > Infinitely criticizing things isn't how it works Alexey. Data

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 10:55:00PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 9:17 PM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 01:52:26PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... > > > > > > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 21/10/2021 22:52, Warner Losh wrote: This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 I tried to abstain from this discussion on whether the bike shed should have b

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 9:17 PM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 01:52:26PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... > > > > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 > > You couldn't use neutral wording, could you?

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 01:52:26PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... > > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 You couldn't use neutral wording, could you? The poll is loaded with bias, this is not the way to collect answe

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 10:03:05AM -0700, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then > S> > S> This change disable bell in X11 too. > S> This is completly disable speaker bell

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

This discussion to date has been data free. I created a poll... https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1451274644439265308 On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 12:59 PM Vladimir Kondratyev wrote: > On 21.10.2021 20:03, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: >

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 21.10.2021 20:03, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then > S> > S> This change disable bell in X11 too. > S> This is completly disable speaker bell. > > Are you sure? I

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 21. 10. 21., Gary Jennejohn wrote: On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:03:05 -0700 Gleb Smirnoff wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then S> S> This change disable bell in X11 too. S> This is comple

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:03:05 -0700 Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then > S> > S> This change disable bell in X11 too. > S> This is completly disable speaker bell.

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, 2021-10-21 at 10:10 -0700, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 09:40:00AM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > E> > E> sane default that most users agrees on in base FreeBSD. If > you don't > E> > E> agree with the defaults we have a way to change them. > E> > > E> > To me this looks

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 09:40:00AM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: E> > E> sane default that most users agrees on in base FreeBSD. If you don't E> > E> agree with the defaults we have a way to change them. E> > E> > To me this looks like abuse of committer priveleges. I got commit bit, E> > so I can

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:02:14AM +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: S> > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then S> S> This change disable bell in X11 too. S> This is completly disable speaker bell. Are you sure? I haven't yet upgraded my desktop to this point, so can't

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:11:05AM -0700, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > laptops. If somebody is using vt(4) instead of X on a laptop, then This change disable bell in X11 too. This is completly disable speaker bell.

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:11:05 -0700 Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > Emmanuel, > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 01:42:37PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > E> Stop using POLA for "This is a change that I don't agree with". > > A change that just changes the system behaviour and nothing else, > is a POLA viola

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

20 oct. 2021 19:11:15 Gleb Smirnoff : >   Emmanuel, > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 01:42:37PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > E>  Stop using POLA for "This is a change that I don't agree with". > > A change that just changes the system behaviour and nothing else, > is a POLA violation. > > E>  In th

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 09:57:04AM -0400, Shawn Webb wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > commit 225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > > > > vt: Disable bell by default > > > > Bell is either useless if you're working on remote servers or > > reall

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

Emmanuel, On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 01:42:37PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: E> Stop using POLA for "This is a change that I don't agree with". A change that just changes the system behaviour and nothing else, is a POLA violation. E> In the past weeks we had commits that changed mixer(8) cli in

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > The branch main has been updated by manu: > > URL: > https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > > commit 225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > Author: Emmanuel Vadot > AuthorDate:

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 01:42:37PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:52:06 +0300 > Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300 > > > Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > > > > > On

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:52:06 +0300 Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300 > > Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > > > > > The bra

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300 > Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > > > The branch main has been updated by manu: > > > > > > URL: > > > https://cgit.FreeBS

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 2021-10-20 02:40:24, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 06:55:34PM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote: I think a POLA violation here was that some equipment emits a jarringly loud noise, and rushing to turn that off is more stressful than the change of turning it on if you value it. I

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 06:55:34PM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > > commit 225639e7db685a4047e384a

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 01:37:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > commit 225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > > > > > > vt: Disable bell by default > > > >

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 19 Oct 2021, at 12:53, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > > On 10/19/21 13:37, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >> Just set kern.vt.enable_bell=1 in /etc/sysctl.conf and you will be >> happy again. I'll do some UPDATING note. >> And POLA doesn't means that we can't change a thing. > > Is this option also RD

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On 10/19/21 13:37, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: Just set kern.vt.enable_bell=1 in /etc/sysctl.conf and you will be happy again. I'll do some UPDATING note. And POLA doesn't means that we can't change a thing. Is this option also RDTUN ? Can it be set in /boot/loader.conf too? --HPS

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:33 +0300 Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > The branch main has been updated by manu: > > > > URL: > > https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > > > > commit 22563

Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 07:38:15AM +, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > The branch main has been updated by manu: > > URL: > https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > > commit 225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 > Author: Emmanuel Vadot > AuthorDate:

git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default

The branch main has been updated by manu: URL: https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 commit 225639e7db685a4047e384abdbc296c0e02bd147 Author: Emmanuel Vadot AuthorDate: 2021-10-18 08:16:41 + Commit: Emmanuel Vadot CommitDate: 2021-10-19 07: