rberos), all of which have
independent sets of supported algorithms and key bit lengths, plus I'm
sure that we have other, more minor packages with other implementations
(we probably have some native Perl implementations, for example).
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at as long as you *also* provide the
recipient with the necessary pieces that they aren't restricted by the
restrictions of that device for other uses.
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y just about everyone.
This is just standard interpersonal tactics, but basically the goal is to
de-escalate any confrontation and try to avoid telling other people
they're wrong, and instead ask for the explanation that you're missing.
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Tollef Fog Heen writes:
> ]] Russ Allbery
> (Cc to owner@bugs, M-F-T to -project.)
>> Note that we already did do something about it by deprecating close in the
>> BTS in favor of sending a real email message to -done that is copied to
>> the submitter. The Debian BTS
a reply to it or a message to control.
> Lately I've sort of avoided [debian-devel] because some of the
> discussions there can be somewhat vitriolic.
Yeah, and it's possible that asking about a bug would break into a
vitriolic debate if people disagreed about the han
not currently packaged for Debian; we did a quick and dirty
packaging for internal purposes (including the REMOTE_USER authentication
plugin), but I haven't taken a close look at what we did. I don't think
we did anything special.
I think this would be a great project if someone
tackExchange
tends to split things fairly heavily (in some cases too heavily; I have no
idea what the intended difference between ServerFault and Unix and Linux
are, except that there are no Windows questions in the latter).
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Markdown instead of a GUI editor, but that's just personal
preference. (I think question2answer does something more like what
StackOverflow does: Markdown plus a real-time preview.)
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To UNSU
e the confirmed tag: it's additional
metadata that I don't need and that I therefore find confusing, and if I'm
not careful it triggers my need to categorize things and I waste a bunch
of time filling out the metadata even though it's not useful and no one
cares about it.
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s available to it, and it doesn't always work. But
the same is true in every workplace I've been in, even though a manager in
an employer-employee relationship has many more effective sanctions
available.
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Chris Knadle writes:
> On Friday, April 12, 2013 13:52:42, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Chris Knadle writes:
>>> Emailing anyone privately leads down the path of "privatization".
>>> [I've already been down this road.] As such I think it might be
>&
of work I put into writing something and much
more about social issues, such as whether I'm feeling threatened or
attacked by someone.
This system is designed to give people space they control to develop their
position without feeling under seige, the way that one can feel on a
mailing lis
analysis, that there should be no consequences for doing so,
just that one should not attempt to proactively prevent all defections.
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with
feedback to receive. The point isn't to say that
you're a horrible person; the impression I have is that it's just
situational and mood. But you tend to post things there that come across
as very hostile, which isn't really appropriate and makes people feel
attacked and demotivated.
-
f you
feel it's warranted, it's not productive. The original point gets lost in
the back and forth of which of you can snark at the other most
effectively.
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is explicitly deciding to pay some people and not others.
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organization, and I think it would be a wrenching cultural change to
turn into that sort of organization. A wrenching change that would also
leave behind things that are highly unusual and valued about the type of
project Debian is now.
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ssible.
Then maybe you should focus on explaining how Debian is "in the way" and
how that problem could be addressed rather than trying to change something
about the Debian project that many of us consider fundamental.
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Martin Owens writes:
> On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 21:18 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> how Debian is "in the way"
> Debian takes code from websites with donation buttons, economic
> incentive options, kickstarter updates, support contracts, developer
> sponsorships, progra
Martin Owens writes:
> On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 22:00 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> If that's what an upstream is after, they should pick a different
>> software license;
> Non-Commercial terms are non-free. If they want to exclude commercial
> distribution they shou
Nikolaus Rath writes:
> Russ Allbery writes:
>> Some of us (myself definitely included) are involved in free software
>> precisely *because* we're strongly anti-capitalist, anti-marketing, and
>> firmly opposed to the economic structures that dominate so much of the
thus making
Debian extremely happy.)
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ation points; rather, it's about funding for Debian
development directly. But that controversy is a good example of the
general project leeriness towards sending money to people and a social
analysis of the fallout provides some understanding of why.
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no.
Er, I don't understand why you think this is significant. The work formed
by taking the original and putting it under a different license is
trivially a derivative work.
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Paul Tagliamonte writes:
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 01:28:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Er, I don't understand why you think this is significant. The work
>> formed by taking the original and putting it under a different license
>> is trivially a derivative work.
" Original work generally means,
in US copyright law, that there is some creative component or content that
makes it copyrightable. It's the same phrase used to determine whether
something is copyrightable in the first place.
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Bas Wijnen writes:
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 03:31:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> The key phrase is "original," not "work." Original work generally
>> means, in US copyright law, that there is some creative component or
>> content that makes it cop
y derivative work, but that's not what
the license said. That seems to imply that some distinction was being
drawn, and if the original work is trivially also a derivative work, that
destroys that distinction.
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law does matter to some extent in those judgement calls.
Of course, in practice, the chances that the copyright holder would ever
care that you relicensed the work, let alone do something legal about it,
are very remote. But then that's true of nearly all of our license
reviews.
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ssed by people new to the package.
Given that, how about something based on the existing help tag, like
help-small?
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licly is probably sufficient to warrant signing the new key if one has
signed the old key? (Assuming that's actually true.)
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with a
Jonathan Dowland writes:
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 01:37:36PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Ah, I hadn't ever thought about it from that angle. Basically, the
>> argument is that if there's no original creative addition, it can't be
>> a derivative wor
g setup and
data center distribution.
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pstream.
+1 to every word of this.
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em76 laptops are nice in that they'll work properly with Debian
without any significant mucking about.
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weird issues in countries with
aggressive libel protection, etc.)
This seems like exactly the right use of debian-private to me.
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with
;m definitely open to changing my mind if the listmasters have a
different opinion, since they're the ones who will have to deal with most
of the fallout.
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le, and quite a
bit to be lost (particularly since it's an invitation to continue the
argument via other means).
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though, and prefer
debian-private as the venue for advertising these, although the arguments
about making it publicly clear that we're doing something about bad
behavior on our lists are fairly compelling.
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-
es-not-require-companies-tirelessly-censor-internet
Included in this is a reality check on what is actually required for
trademark enforcement to prevent a successful claim of abandonment.
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cies. The very measure of merit is socially constructed and will
always be skewed towards viewing the existing dominant group as having
more merit.
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eason and because I think it helps move us closer
to decisions based on merits by helping suppress some social tendencies
that reduce involvement and put unnecessary barriers in front of people.
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smile.
> You should try it. It’s peculiarly enlightening.
> I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking “Oh my god, that’s
> treating other people with respect gone mad!”
> - Neil Gaiman
This, so much.
Thank you for posting it.
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n, and kept starting
again despite telling them to stop. Finally, I stopped responding
entirely, which just resulted in a recruiter sending me increasingly
desperate messages, begging me to respond.
The whole thing was quite weird. Google seems to have an institutional
problem with taking no fo
results.
I would prefer to have the Policy Editors continue to be a delegated
position for that reason.
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with a subject of "
limits the powers of the DPL.
I believe that deciding on the mechanisms and machinery whereby the
project as a whole will work out its technical policy (as opposed to
disputes over the contents of that policy itself) falls nicely under 5.1.4
and 5.1.9, particularly the latter.
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he TC at all. I also think it's best to
have that process overseen by the "democratic" side of Debian governance
(the DPL) as opposed to the "technocratic" side of Debian governance (the
TC), because it's really about cooperation, communication, consensus, and
soci
ead on the walls.
I don't think your attitude is at all the cause. Quite to the contrary, I
really appreciate your continued effort to push this forward, since I
think it's a major gap in Policy at the moment. I'm sorry that it's been
so frustrating.
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ticularly in this case. I think we would
all be extremely unhappy if the TC voted one way on the default init
system and the project then voted a different way by a 60% majority.
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27;t a matter that
involves a maintainer override).
I'll defer to the secretary on whether it makes sense for the TC to do
this in advance, or whether to be formally correct we would have to do so
after the GR had passed.
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u want to say is a good default, but this is
*far* from my area of expertise.
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Joey Hess writes:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I think we're still in the middle of our process, which I understand
>> that a lot of people outside the project find baffling and protracted.
> Well, not only outside the project.
> The tech ctte has always operated
the general principles that I posted there. (And observe that the group
size is not magic that leads to consensus *always* working. We failed at
consensus in a group of eight.)
Sometimes it really is better to have a decision you don't agree with than
no decision.
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warning.
The level of process should be proportional to the level of injury that
could be caused by the action. We're talking about an action (temporary
bans) that is considerably milder than a traffic ticket. We should pick a
corresponding level of process.
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Chris Knadle writes:
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 16:27:52 Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Ean Schuessler writes:
>>> I am actually for the CoC. My complaint is that the GR does not
>>> require a record keeping process. I actually agree with Steve that we
>>> sh
ou
need to make the attempt is completely public, and attempting it is not at
all suspicious. There's no risk of getting caught. That makes the attack
far more feasible.
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o push it, even if I had all power to do so myself!)
For email signatures, don't quite a few more things care? All votes,
db.debian.org operations, etc.
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majority of the project disagrees
with me that it's a bad idea, that quite likely means that I'm wrong and
haven't thought through some aspect of the problem that makes it a better
idea than it appears to be to me.
Also, separately, please don't attack Ian for things tha
no one cares enough, then I think we need to recognize that
maybe having multiple implementations isn't important enough to motivate
anyone to volunteer to do it, and therefore we'll have to live without the
benefits of having them.
If that feels like an unacceptable outcome, well, I think t
in the project is particularly harmed by that.
(I love you all, but I already have a huge problem with getting distracted
by shiny discussions on the Internet rather than actually getting things
done, so plugging into another giant source of shiny conversations with
which I can distract myself
fight.
The above is written very carefully to try to avoid expressing any opinion
about the merits of the content itself. Please don't try to read an
opinion on that into the above.
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While it's probably too late in this process to change what we're going to
vote on, I just ran across this today, and it may be of general interest
in the context of codes of conduct.
http://adainitiative.org/2014/02/howto-design-a-code-of-conduct-for-your-community/
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harassment. My inclination is to weigh more heavily the CoC
experiences of people who *are* frequent targets of harassment than those
of us who are already happily participating in the project and have rarely
been on the receiving end of problems.
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us to be clear
about what type of project participant we're interested in, and what type
of project participant we're not interested in, and that we shouldn't be
afraid to be a bit confrontational here.
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to your GPG secret key
without you explicitly pasting it into the browser, I think you have
larger problems....
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. The same technique would work for things like Skype.
I'm sure it's possible, but I don't know enough about the various
virtualization systems to be able to figure it out quickly, and I've yet
to get interested enough to spend several days figuring out a method.
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7;ve used in the past 20 years.
I don't think there's any real way to stop it. There's rarely any good
break point where the discussion clearly goes from private to public in
a way that makes it easy to move.
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Steve Langasek writes:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:01:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> A follow-up to this. In response to the question of why so many
>> threads start on debian-private in the first place, I proposed the
>> following two explanations:
>> * debi
ork is almost impossibly slow and was wary of doing a bunch of
work to get this set up only to discover that the same applies in VMs.
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with a
approach we could take to this would be to randomly assign each
existing member (except maybe Keith and Colin) to an artificial "start of
term" date distributed across the past three or four years, for the
purposes of deciding when our current term ends. That would build in
Anthony Towns writes:
> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 06:40:22PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Other bodies of this type take a variation on this approach (and of the
>> reappointment rule you propose below) that I quite like: after each
>> term, that member may not be reappo
ostly going to be resigning before their term is up rather than being
able to wait to the end of their term.
We could combine both features, though: set a term length of two years,
and then say that people can serve for two terms in succession but then
have to leave the committee
Michael Gilbert writes:
> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> We could combine both features, though: set a term length of two years,
>> and then say that people can serve for two terms in succession but then
>> have to leave the committee for at least
Anthony Towns writes:
> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 10:37:05AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> We could combine both features, though: set a term length of two years,
>> and then say that people can serve for two terms in succession but then
>> have to leave the committee for at l
siasm for doing that, so I'm not
sure there's a lot of point in talking about it. (The shape is probably
predictable to anyone who knows me and knows how much I dislike the
concept of meritocracy.)
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Paul Wise writes:
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Paul Wise writes:
>>> No-one in the thread seems to be reading Planet Debian, but here is an
>>> alternative proposal:
>>> http://xana.scru.org/xana2/ranticore/techctte/
>&g
ee Software"
with "Open Source Software". This terminology debate reflects
underlying philosophical differences, but the practical requirements
placed on software licenses, and the discussion in the rest of this
page, are essentially the same for both Free Softwa
m development to know if that's a real problem or
not. That being said, certainly if one can run the upstream test suite
without causing such problems, it's a good idea.
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k only a scant handful of messages for this to turn into an
advocacy debate. I'm not at all surprised; that's what happens.
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s in person (where even if you get a similar low quality of initial
information, they can at least *show* you the differences).
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martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> also sprach Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.12.12.1953 +0100]:
>> People who go to IRC and ask advocacy questions are fairly unlikely to
>> get high-quality information no matter where you send them. At best,
>>
ora maintainers could see what changes were made in Debian that
they might be interested... yes, you would indeed be contributing to
Fedora.
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I don't think there's any chance I'd
get it past our computer security folks. Yes, the data that it sends
isn't particularly sensitive, but it's still information about what
packages are installed on a system that could be used to structure an
attack and from their persp
e this release or
> at least the japanese version...
I believe this is normally spelled "ecchi" when written in English
(although I see that "etchi" is an alternative spelling).
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rding can be identified, and they've
already tried all the obvious things. I'm not sure punitive measures are
going to help either, but I can understand the frustration.
Some mailing lists just almost always have this problem. BUGTRAQ is
particularly bad.
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n a while, I do
another pass of automating things that are in muscle memory, but there are
always more.
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more people to ignore such public statements unless
the expulsion process *actually* starts (which so far as I can tell has
yet to ever happen).
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ccessful than what we have
right now?
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we're a
> volunteer OS not a volunteer international vacation club.
Have you seen the Geek Social Fallacies?
<http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html>
I think Fallacy #1 sheds quite a bit of light on this particular situation
and the
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Have you seen the Geek Social Fallacies?
>> <http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html>
>> I think Fallacy #1 sheds quite a bit of light
keys for testing
purposes on a Debian host, particularly a porter host, and there's no
security issue with that.
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etup to
dpkg-source-v2 and back again so that the maintainer can use quilt and all
of its extensive functionality for managing patches but the package
builder doesn't need to have it available just to apply the patches.
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ppens. My e-mail address is on my bug
reports so that people can contact me about those bug reports if need be,
and I do not want it obscured, hidden, forced through form submission
pages, or otherwise taken away.
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the potential ability to do more detailed post-mortem analysis
after something already exploded.
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in favor of requiring that
the upload contain built packages for at least one platform as a basic
sanity check but just throwing away that build after verifying it exists.)
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martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> also sprach Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.09.02.0141 +0200]:
>> I honestly think the security argument for doing this is silly.
> Clients do not want to hear something like that.
People frequently don't wa
George Danchev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> True, and Martin's reasoning is about consistency across the
> architectures, not that much after security, as I read it.
That argument I agree with.
> On Saturday 02 September 2006 02:41, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> However,
martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> also sprach Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.09.02.0852 +0200]:
>> You're probably not going to convince me on this, so it may not be
>> worth wasting time on arguing about it when we both agree on the
>>
Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:52:17PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Source-code trojans are more dangerous because people fear binaries but
>> think that if they've compiled it, it's fine, when the only real
>> distinctio
auditing the code they incorporate into their
distribution than Debian is.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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