e for the reference implementation, similar to the way the
> sysvinit package name was repurposed to mean "an init system" during
> the
> transition to systemd, with the real SysV init renamed to sysvinit-
> core. I
> think this would not have been correct, because packages th
of the systemd downstream maintainers team to be able to fully
and effectively support Debian and its users. Deviating from the
expected path causes additional workload, unexpected incidents and
general discomfort for an already over-worked and small team, while
providing no tangible benefit, as the
On Mon, 8 May 2023 at 16:39, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> Luca> It has come to my attention that there is one package in
> Luca> Debian using dpkg-divert to mask a systemd configuration file
>
On Mon, 8 May 2023 at 16:48, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> I think your X-Debbugs-Cc was syntactically invalid and thus didn't work.
> I manually added in the other addresses in this reply.
Thanks - email is hard!
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > It has come to my attention th
eworked it can go.
On request from Marco, the kmod maintainer, I've also added the same
constraint for modprobe.d/ files, for exactly the same reason, as kmod
supports overrides, drop-ins and so on. I've kept it as a separate
commit on top of the other changes, given I am not involved with kmod
directly.
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
the patch, the general rule is as
requested by Russ and as you mention it, but there is an explicit,
stricter rule to cover this case, which is important to me. Policy
calls out core component software in many places, such as dpkg, and
systemd is already mentioned in other parts of the policy, so it did
not seem too far-fetched to me.
I am of course open to re-wording, adjustments, etc as deemed necessary.
Changeset at: https://salsa.debian.org/bluca/policy/-/tree/systemd_overrides
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
y forgotten that we said something
about
> this under maintainer scripts.
>
> That doesn't entirely cover this case (because systemd and udev may
not be
> "that package" in this sense), but it covers much of the general
case.
Would you like me to reword/move the new snippet?
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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pulled in whenever possible. When a minimal
installation is desired (ie, a minbase), it is possible to manually
specify the -standalone variant.
This was a controversial point last year, see:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1017441
We could even d
On Tue, 09 May 2023 00:31:20 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> On Mon, 08 May 2023 14:14:30 -0700 Russ Allbery
wrote:
> > Guillem Jover writes:
> > > On Mon, 2023-05-08 at 08:48:49 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >
> > >> […] I suspect Policy should say s
On Wed, 10 May 2023 23:40:44 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> On Tue, 09 May 2023 00:31:20 +0100 Luca Boccassi
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 08 May 2023 14:14:30 -0700 Russ Allbery
> wrote:
> > > Guillem Jover writes:
> > > > On Mon, 2023-05-08 at 08:48:49 -0700, Russ
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 12:02, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Tue 09 May 2023 at 01:44AM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > I've done an initial attempt to define the wording, although I'm sure
> > it will need quite a few changes. Attached as a p
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 11:54, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> Hello Luca,
>
> On Mon 08 May 2023 at 08:07PM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > The specific difference, for which I think an explicit call out is
> > needed, is because these config files are shipped by some package
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 12:25, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 11:54, Sean Whitton wrote:
> >
> > Hello Luca,
> >
> > On Mon 08 May 2023 at 08:07PM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> >
> > > The specific difference, for which I think an explic
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 19:39:49 +0200 Bill Allombert
wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 12:25:54PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > If you prefer, I can reword the general rule to be stricter, ie:
> > "packages must not use diversions where native mechanisms are
> > avail
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 14:56, Simon McVittie wrote:
>
> (Newly cc'd elogind maintainers: Please see #945269 for context)
>
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2023 at 12:15:41 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 12:02, Sean Whitton wrote:
> > > On Tue 09 May 20
On Mon, 5 Jun 2023 10:11:46 +0100 Simon McVittie
wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jun 2023 at 01:36:25 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > Our time is worth more than 80K or whatever it is of disk space in
a
> > throw-away container.
>
> I agree that the systemd maintainers' time is
On Mon, 5 Jun 2023 09:53:39 +0100 Simon McVittie
wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jun 2023 at 01:36:25 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > If it is useful, adding a "default-tmpfiles" or so virtual package
> > would be fine by me - but with the kfreebsd port being retired
soon,
> >
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 11:45, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Sun 04 Jun 2023 at 01:35PM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > In the interest of speeding things up a bit, I've done some rewording
> > as suggested - moved to the exiting chapter, and use the syst
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 11:58, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Mon 05 Jun 2023 at 12:59AM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 19:39:49 +0200 Bill Allombert
> > wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 12:25:54PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
&g
#x27;t take away anything from you, but would
add quite a lot for the rest of us, who find ourselves very limited
and very much barrier-ized by clunky, old and painful email-based
processes.
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
less system with no
elogind:
> systemd gets installed as a dependency by default, which is what
the
> systemd maintainers would prefer to happen when there are no
compelling
> space constraints; but the user can specifically ask for
> systemd-standalone-tmpfiles if that's what they'd prefer
>
> * install foo-service in a container with no init system at all:
Sounds like a good plan to me.
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 14:03:41 +0200 Bill Allombert
wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 12:16:39PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > > > local administrators and local packages to override the
behaviour of
> > > > Debian. Its use between Debian packages should be rare, should
i
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:23:35 +0200 Bill Allombert ,
Luca Boccassi wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 01:38:51PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > > The diversion system is made precisely to work around other
packages
> > behavior,
> > > this is a feature not a bug. That it
limited
> and very much barrier-ized by clunky, old and painful email-based
> processes.
Which means you are actually doing what you accuse me of - you are not
content with being able to keep using mail workflows for yourself, you
want to actively stop everybody from being able to use Salsa
On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 09:19:30 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote:
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > Snarks aside, allowing merge requests to be open on Salsa in
_addition_
> > to attachments to the BTS, as the vast majority of other packages
> > already do, doesn't take away any
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 17:12, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > --- a/policy/ap-pkg-alternatives.rst
> > +++ b/policy/ap-pkg-alternatives.rst
> > @@ -24,3 +24,7 @@ See the :manpage:`update-alternatives(8)` man page for
> > details.
> > I
On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:07:37 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> Sounds like a good plan to me.
Updated as suggested.
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
From 20a655663c17914699e72e48a74daca03fd42a22 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Luca Boccassi
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 01:38:13 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] Def
On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 00:02:06 +0200 Bill Allombert
wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 03:16:02PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:23:35 +0200 Bill Allombert
,
> > Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 01:38:51PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 00:01:42 +0200 Bill Allombert
wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 09:36:31PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 20:51:46 +0200 Dominik George
> > wrote:
> > > > Ok, how about: "the whole project, minus
> > naturesha..
On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 16:46:04 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote:
> Luca Boccassi writes:
> > I'm not suggesting that you stop using emails to send your changes
- I'm
> > simply asking to reconsider making policy work like the vast
majority of
> > other parts of Debian, and _
On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 at 04:40, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > diff --git a/policy/ch-files.rst b/policy/ch-files.rst
> > index b34c183..30ce013 100644
> > --- a/policy/ch-files.rst
> > +++ b/policy/ch-files.rst
> > @@ -722,6 +722,43 @
On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 at 11:29, Simon McVittie wrote:
>
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 20:40:52 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Luca Boccassi writes:
> > > +Packages might need additional files or directories to implement their
> > > +functionality. Directories that
nism? With links to all the
relevant documentation et cetera. Are you saying it's not exhaustive
enough and you want more details added? I am wary of excessively
redefining and duplicating existing documentation, especially because
it will naturally evolve (in backward-compatible ways) and any such
copy would get out of date and be confusing.
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 at 11:46, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2023 at 11:29, Simon McVittie wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 20:40:52 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > Luca Boccassi writes:
> > > > +Packages might need additional
er directories that should be handled directly by the unit file if
> that's what we want people to do.
Again, the rationale is: when there is a strong ownership model tied to
an individual service those are best as the lifecycle and permissions
are handled, when there is no owner or no specif
not be RC-buggy? Not RC-buggy means we are happy if it
ships in a release. What does that buy us? Why wouldn't we want to
direct maintainers toward the better alternative, that is current
practice as of today, and instead let them reintroduce a mechanism that
we agree is inferior and was just removed from the distribution?
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 20:51, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > That paragraph is in the context of StateDirectory= and
> > RuntimeDirectory=. These are unit files options, so it's up to
> > alternative init systems to provide alternative and int
On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 22:49, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > That essentially means it's fine to use diversions and ship releases
> > using them, so that's exactly what will happen as per Murphy's law.
>
> I think we're reaching
On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 22:59, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 22:49, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >
> > Luca Boccassi writes:
> >
> > > That essentially means it's fine to use diversions and ship releases
> > > using them, so that
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 at 16:27, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > I.e.: if the attached version works, then that's good enough for me.
>
> Seconded. Thank you for your work on multiple revisions of this patch!
Thanks for your patience and feedback!
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
to test the dependency changes in elogind,
enshrining this
> > as a 'should' in the Policy now seems, at least, premature.
>
> Cool, thank you. This will simplify resolving this bug.
Is there anything needed from me to make progress on this? Any changes
required to the last r
On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 13:03, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Fri 16 Jun 2023 at 05:57PM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > Is there anything needed from me to make progress on this? Any changes
> > required to the last revision posted?
>
> Yes, Russ posted
On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 13:38:12 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 13:03, Sean Whitton
wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > On Fri 16 Jun 2023 at 05:57PM +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> >
> > > Is there anything needed from me to make progress on th
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 16:52, Ansgar wrote:
>
> Hi Luca,
>
> On Tue, 2023-06-20 at 22:53 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > Russ, anything I've missed that you want me to change from the most
> > recent revision at
> > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.c
to
https://salsa.debian.org/bluca/policy/-/commits/mandatory_units?ref_type=heads
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
From ea524f52d256e37b4e4747d7e6ac4f316c4805a8 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Luca Boccassi
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 18:42:29 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] system services: make systemd units manda
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 19:21, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > systemd upstream will drop support for the transitional sysv generator
> > in the near future. The transition is long finished, it's been at least
> > a decade, and it's time fo
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 19:26, Ansgar wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 2023-06-25 at 18:51 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > Patch attached and pushed to
> > https://salsa.debian.org/bluca/policy/-/commits/mandatory_units?ref_type=hea
>
> I support this as using the
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 19:24, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 19:21, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >
> > Luca Boccassi writes:
> >
> > > systemd upstream will drop support for the transitional sysv generator
> > > in the near future. The trans
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 02:05, Benda Xu wrote:
>
> Hi Luca,
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> >> On Sun, 2023-06-25 at 18:51 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> >> > Patch attached and pushed to
> >> > https://salsa.debian.org/bluca/policy/-/commits/mandator
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 11:21:53 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote:
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > systemd upstream will drop support for the transitional sysv
generator
> > in the near future. The transition is long finished, it's been at
least
> > a decade, and it's t
,
make the 'Uploaders' field optional instead of mandatory when the
'Maintainer' is a team alias. This allows packages where we do not want
to assign ownership to any individual, but leave them be purely team
maintained, to do so.
--
Kind regards
On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 at 10:26, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> control: forcemerge 798476 1041464
>
> Hello,
>
> On Wed 19 Jul 2023 at 10:18am +01, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > Assigning ownership to individuals deters group and team maintenance,
> > as other tea
On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 22:53:24 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 13:38:12 +0100 Luca Boccassi
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 13:03, Sean Whitton
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > On Fri 16 Jun 2023 at 05:57PM +01, L
On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 00:04:29 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> This happened a few days ago and nobody complained (if we ignore
> grumblings because of the fact that I used lintian.debian.org queries
> which are hopelessly and silently out of date, sigh), and bugs are
> filed, there have b
On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 23:12:21 +0200 Bill Allombert
wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 08:22:54PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 00:04:29 +0100 Luca Boccassi
> > wrote:
> > > This happened a few days ago and nobody complained (if we ignore
> > &g
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 12:17:05 +0100 Luca Boccassi
wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 22:53:24 +0100 Luca Boccassi
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 13:38:12 +0100 Luca Boccassi
> > wrote:
> > > On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 13:03, Sean Whitton
>
> > wrote:
> > > &
27;s update the policy to refer to modern and supported filesystem
paths as adopted by Debian de-facto and de-jure, and stop other
maintainers from getting beaten with it.
Patch attached and also pushed to
https://salsa.debian.org/bluca/policy/-/tree/bin_sh
--
Kind re
On Wed, 6 Sept 2023 at 23:34, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> Luca> Debian only supports merged-usr since Bookworm. We should
> Luca> update policy to reference /usr/bin/sh and similar paths to
> Luca&
On Wed, 6 Sept 2023 at 23:51, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi writes:
> Luca> /bin/sh is not universally compatible with non-Linux OSes.
>
> I claim it is more compatible.
>
> Luca> Also I thought that policy sho
On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 00:45, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi writes:
> Luca> How would such a change look like?
>
> I looked at your patch.
>
> In most of the cases you are changing non-normative language.
> That
to change or switch, but to
stop bug reporters from using policy to beat maintainers. Given I am
told these sections are not normative, I am perfectly fine with
rewording in any way that achieves that objective - ie, mentioning
both paths, or none, for example.
> > >>>>> "
On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 21:22, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>
> Hi Luca,
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2023 at 10:50:14PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > Package: debian-policy
> > X-Debbugs-Cc: j...@debian.org hel...@subdivi.de
> >
> > Debian only supports merged-usr since Book
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 00:37, gregor herrmann wrote:
>
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 21:28:15 +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> > Yes, that is fine by me, as explained in later replies my main
> > intention is to fix the issue that some wording is being used to
> > reintroduc
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 05:22, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > And I am more than a bit sad that sensible, clear-cut, binding and
> > already-implemented decisions taken by our constitutional bodies get
> > constantly second-guessed and belittl
this look more amenable?
From Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Luca Boccassi
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 22:41:58 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] Stop referring to specific paths in scripts shebang examples
These are being mistaken for normative languages, but they are ju
On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 03:19, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Russ Allbery writes:
>
> > -If a service unit is not present, ``systemd`` uses dependency information
> > -contained within the init scripts and symlinks in ``/etc/rcn.d`` to decide
> > -which scripts to run and in which order. The ``sysv-rc
> other discussion of systemd units? They feel out of place here, since
> > packages that do not use services cannot use this functionality
>
> I'm not Luca, but I think you're correct here.
Moved as suggested. Also incorporated your suggestion on the versioned
virtual p
On Sun, 10 Sept 2023 at 04:36, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Licenses will be included in common-licenses if they meet all of the
> following criteria:
>
> * The license is DFSG-free.
> * Exactly the same license wording is used by all works covered by it.
> * The license applies to at
On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 07:01, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> As usual, the things I notice only after I post text, even though I'd
> already read it several times.
>
> Russ Allbery writes:
>
> > +Volatile and temporary files (``tmpfiles.d``)
> > +-
> > +
> >
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023, 17:58 Russ Allbery, wrote:
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > Two more things went missing: Simon's suggestion on the versioned
> > dependencies on the virtual packages,
>
> Ah, yes, I'm sorry, I talked myself out of that and then completely f
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023, 06:13 Russ Allbery, wrote:
> Sam Hartman writes:
> >>>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > Luca> Thank you, looks good to me, seconded.
>
> > LGTM too, seconded.
>
> Thanks! This has now been merged for the next Policy release.
>
That's great, thank you!
>
On Wed, 13 Sept 2023 at 15:37, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> > "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
>
> I don't know if this needs seconds, but I reviewed all the text and it
> looks good.
> If seconds are required, I second.
Same, in case ownership passes to Russ, seconded/approved/you have my
sword/etc
On Wed, 13 Sept 2023 at 04:48, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Control: retitle -1 Post-/usr-merge paths for script interpreters
>
> Simon pointed out that this bug is not yet ready to act on, which was very
> helpful. Thank you. However, presumably the buildds will be /usr-merged
> at some point in the
On Fri, 15 Sept 2023 at 22:18, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Guillem Jover writes:
>
> > Not shipping these empty directories in the .deb seems like a regression
> > or a disservice to me. Even for things that might get deleted because
> > things like our policy or the FHS allows for it (say stuff unde
On Sun, 17 Sept 2023 at 00:12, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > Aside from more practical considerations, shipping /var content in
> > packages is problematic because it's supposed to be local variable data,
> > that can be removed without b
On Sun, 17 Sept 2023 at 18:53, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi writes:
>
> > Let me clarify, here I meant something much simpler - the image
> > installed is a 'normal' one, with r/w root and managed by apt as usual
> > (ie: not immutable image-ba
On Sun, 17 Sept 2023 at 17:35, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> To do the tmpfiles purge/reset I have two WIP PRs, one against
> sd-tmpfiles, and one against debhelper. I need to pick them up again
> and finish that, and I am aiming to do so within the next couple of
> months.
Sorry
what we want. In my
> understanding, we are trying to ship a distribution, IOW a set of
> packages that work *together*.
>
> If a confused dpkg was okay, then a lot of the work could have been
> skipped.
+1
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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, we avoid triggering undefined
> + behaviour. Conversely, packages may assume that /bin, /lib and
/sbin are
> + symlinks at all times and that their files below /usr/bin, /usr/lib
and
> + /usr/sbin are also accessible via their aliased locations.
Seconded
--
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi
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