On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:50:53 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>
> It's not necessarily the init script author who might want the degrees
> of freedom, but the local system administrator.
>
> The most basic is the idea that whether you can control (via shell
> scrpit fragments) whether or not a service
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 08:41:10PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 06:21:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Well, I've said this before, but I think it's worth reiterating. Either
> > upstart or systemd configurations are *radically better* than init scripts
> > on basically
Op 31-10-13 02:50, Theodore Ts'o schreef:
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 06:18:29PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I suspect you and I have a root disagreement over the utility of exposing
>> some of those degrees of freedom to every init script author, but if you
>> have some more specific examples of p
Op 30-10-13 23:09, Steve McIntyre schreef:
>> Having said that, I do think that providing a limited number of CD
>> install images is useful for those cases of retrocomputing where
>> installing off DVD is difficult. Other than that...
>
> So... In that situation, would you care about having more
Op 30-10-13 16:58, Tollef Fog Heen schreef:
> ]] Wouter Verhelst
>
>> Yes, absense of documentation is common on Unix and Linux systems; but
>> no, I do not think that this is okay, or that we should in any way
>> encourage that sort of thing.
>
> By absense of documentation, are you referring t
On 10/31/2013 01:00 PM, hero...@gentoo.org wrote:
> Thomas Goirand writes:
>
>> I'm very happy to tell everyone that this is *FIXED* !!!
>>
>> http://youtu.be/zoNoi8BgQjs
>>
>> :D :D :D
>
> Wow. That's absolutely great zigo!
>
> Although the "Caching service dependencies" seems to be a regressi
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* Theodore Ts'o:
> The most basic is the idea that whether you can control (via shell
> scrpit fragments) whether or not a service should start at all, and
> what options or environments should be enabled by pasing some file.
Curiously, a lot of system administrators do not do this correctly
usin
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 01:41:53AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> I'm surprised by this comment. Very little policy is actually encoded in
> upstart's C code; in fact, the only policy I can think of offhand that is is
> some basic stuff around filesystems, which, aside from some must-have kernel
>
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:52:15PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >> You can do quite a bit with the hooks that are part of the specification
> >> of both types of files. For example, logic that you may add to control
> >> whether the service should start at all can be implemented by adding a
> >> p
On a different subject, which I don't think has been raised so far ---
has the Debian maintinares for the upstart package made any comments
about bug fixes or code contributions from Debian Developers who are
personally opposed to being forced to sign copyright assignment
agreements, or for whom th
Hi,
On 31/10/13 12:45, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On a different subject, which I don't think has been raised so far ---
> has the Debian maintinares for the upstart package made any comments
> about bug fixes or code contributions from Debian Developers who are
> personally opposed to being forced to
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Curiously, a lot of system administrators do not do this correctly
> using sysvinit, causing system daemons to start unexpectedly after
> installing package updates.
What *is* the correct way, anyway?
My coworkers tell me to delete the symlinks in /et
Hi Thorsten,
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 04:05:48PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> * Write scripts for one system and generate the other from it
> or even
> * Write ???Debian init declaration??? and let something take care
> of generating an initscript and whatever the other systems
> use out of
On 31/10/13 12:27, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Florian Weimer wrote:
>
>> Curiously, a lot of system administrators do not do this correctly
>> using sysvinit, causing system daemons to start unexpectedly after
>> installing package updates.
>
> What *is* the correct way, anyway
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Simon McVittie wrote:
> file-rc ships its own update-rc.d implementation (at least, according to
> the package description it does) which hopefully has the enable/disable
> subcommands.
It does, but…
> My understanding is that something like `update-rc.d $service disable`
…
* Thorsten Glaser [Thu Oct 31, 2013 at 01:27:12PM +0100]:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > Curiously, a lot of system administrators do not do this correctly
> > using sysvinit, causing system daemons to start unexpectedly after
> > installing package updates.
> What *is* the corr
On 31/10/13 13:06, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
>> My understanding is that something like `update-rc.d $service disable`
>
> … isn’t that overwritten by the update-rc.d commands in the
> maintainer scripts (postinst) when the package is upgraded?
Not in the sysv-rc implementation, at least. `update-rc
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 06:33:44 +0100 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> two places where to place systemd service files. One is located
> below /usr/lib/systemd which is the directory where service files
> provided by the package are placed, and one is /etc/systemd where
> your own, custom service fi
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 01:47:37PM +, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> And overriding the *entire* service file seems excessive if you wish to
> override just one line of the package's service file.
You add a file /etc/systemd/system/xxx.service.d/yyy.conf with the following
contents:
[Service]
Se
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On 2013-10-25 17:04, Bastien beudart wrote:
> It seems that the tech committee is composed of two well known
> ubuntu developers.
Correct. And five other members.
> Isn't that biased?
Probably.
But even if the two people vote in one direction the
]] Theodore Ts'o
> The upstart documentation, from my brief examination, seems to be much
> more approachable for someone who is starting from ground zero.
Have you read the «The systemd for Administrators Blog Series» linked to
from http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ ?
--
Tolle
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 06:33:44 +0100 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> messed up custom code may end up rendering your whole system unusable
> if you are smart enough to mess up an rm command. Just have a look
> at this wonderful bug in upstart [1].
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/u
]] Theodore Ts'o
> I don't think copyright assignment is a concern which afflicts
> Systemd, although there is a related concern which is that the
> upstream systemd developers appear to have a very strong point of
> view, and if there is some change which is needed for Debian or
> Debian's users
On Oct 31, 2013, at 07:45 AM, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>On a different subject, which I don't think has been raised so far ---
>has the Debian maintinares for the upstart package made any comments
>about bug fixes or code contributions from Debian Developers who are
>personally opposed to being forced
I am mentoring packaging of https://github.com/mne-tools/mne-python and
ATM their public python scripts (ATM 10 of them already) carry .py
suffix. At first I blindly recommended to strip those off
(https://github.com/mne-tools/mne-python/pull/865) but the problem is
that there is a non-free orig
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:14:06AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> The difference of course is that with the CLA, you continue "to own the
> copyright in the contribution, with full rights to re-use, re-distribute, and
> continue modifying the contributed code", but it allows Canonical to use your
> c
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On 31/10/13 15:01, Ian Jackson wrote:
> This seems to have come along very well in the past few days.
Yes. Things are very heated, but a lot of things have been researched
and documented along the way. I've been learning a lot about init
systems I wasn't familiar with and some differences in opi
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Hi Thorsten,
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 05:30:03PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> Stefano Zacchiroli debian.org> writes:
> > *technical* decision is stupid. We really need to stop thinking that
> > every single member of the Debian project, just because he/she is a DD,
> > has a clue on every sing
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 02:04:24PM +, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> > [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/557177
>
> This doesn't appear to be a bug in Upstart.
Strictly, no, but there was a surprising amount of resistance to adding
some boilerplate to that script to some
On 10/31/2013 03:04 PM, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 06:33:44 +0100 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> messed up custom code may end up rendering your whole system unusable
>> if you are smart enough to mess up an rm command. Just have a look
>> at this wonderful bug in upstart
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 09:50:53PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 06:18:29PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > I suspect you and I have a root disagreement over the utility of exposing
> > some of those degrees of freedom to every init script author, but if you
> > have some mor
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 03:59:25PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 02:04:24PM +, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> > > [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/557177
> > This doesn't appear to be a bug in Upstart.
> Strictly, no, but there was a surprisin
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:14:06AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Actually, contributing to Upstart does not require copyright assignment (as
> for example, would contributing to an FSF-owned GNU project). Instead, it
> requires a Contributor License Agreement be signed:
>
> http://www.canonical.co
Urgh. How about installing the .py to a private directory (under
/usr/share say?) and creating non-suffixed symlinks in /usr/bin. You
could document that the user could/should prefix the /usr/share dir
in their $PATH if they need to rely on the .py names existing,
perhaps even provide a small helpe
previously on this list Theodore Ts'o contributed:
> So hopefully that is something the technical committee will take into
> account --- how well things are documented, both in terms of a
> comprehensive reference manual, and a tutorial that helps people with
> common things that system administra
previously on this list Wouter Verhelst contributed:
> > By absense of documentation, are you referring to the almost 10% of the
> > source base that are comments or the 15% that is DocBook XML based
> > documentation? (Almost 14kLOC and almost 36kLOX, respectively.)
>
> That particular commen
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> Urgh. How about installing the .py to a private directory (under
> /usr/share say?) and creating non-suffixed symlinks in /usr/bin.
how that would help in case of a conflict with original MNE's binaries
becoming available/conflicting?
> You
> coul
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On Oct 31, 2013, at 06:10 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>Quoting from the PDF linked from that page ("Canonical Individual
>Contributor License Agreement" for individual contributors):
>
>Based on the grant of rights in Sections 2.1 and 2.2, if We
>include Your Contribution in a Material, We m
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 03:24:02PM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> > Urgh. How about installing the .py to a private directory (under
> > /usr/share say?) and creating non-suffixed symlinks in /usr/bin.
>
> how that would help in case of a conflict with original MNE's binaries
> becoming avail
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 03:24:02PM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> > > Urgh. How about installing the .py to a private directory (under
> > > /usr/share say?) and creating non-suffixed symlinks in /usr/bin.
> > how that would help in case of a c
--text follows this line--
Theodore Ts'o writes ("Re: Bug#727708: tech-ctte: Decide which init system to
default to in Debian."):
> On a different subject, which I don't think has been raised so far ---
> has the Debian maintinares for the upstart package made any comments
> about bug fixes or cod
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> the hurdle again is that those then would/could conflict with the names
> of the now non-free MNE toolkit, which ships files with the same names.
Sounds like both packages should pick new names and/or install into
their own directories and the "int
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> > the hurdle again is that those then would/could conflict with the names
> > of the now non-free MNE toolkit, which ships files with the same names.
> Sounds like both packages should pick new names
well -- in their universe they have no problem to
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 07:20:12AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 01:41:53AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > I'm surprised by this comment. Very little policy is actually encoded in
> > upstart's C code; in fact, the only policy I can think of offhand that is is
> > some ba
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 04:36:35PM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> the hurdle again is that those then would/could conflict with the names
> of the now non-free MNE toolkit, which ships files with the same names.
> This Python toolkit pretty much tries to mimic and interface in few
> spots the o
On 31/10/13 09:30, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Op 30-10-13 23:09, Steve McIntyre schreef:
>> So... In that situation, would you care about having more than just a
>> netinst available for initial booting? Beyond that, people can get on
>> the network to a mirror, or to other machines hosting the DVD i
Hi Steve,
On 27/10/13 20:44, Steve Langasek wrote:
>> I think to submit them a summary of
>> https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/TheCaseForMultiarch for the reason of
>> such a header files setup in debian/ubuntu and
>> https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/LibraryPathOverview for the way their
>> sourc
Le Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:21:54AM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko a écrit :
>
> So the easiest resolution is IMHO to maintain .py suffixes, but I feel
> unease about such a solution despite archive having a good number
> of precedents already.
Hi Yaroslav,
I recommend if possible to keep the origina
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:10:31 +, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:14:06AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > Actually, contributing to Upstart does not require copyright assignment (as
> > for example, would contributing to an FSF-owned GNU project). Instead, it
> > requires a Co
On Fri, 2013-10-25 at 15:34 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> It would be useful if you could arrange for git-deb to produce the
> identical git commit shas for importing a given version of a package as
> does dgit. dgit uses some simple techniques, like using the
> debian/changelog date as the git commit
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:40:20PM +0100, gregor herrmann wrote:
[...]
> > In other words, Canonical gets the right to take a free software
> > contribution and make it proprietary. The contributors gets to own the
> > software, and can continue releasing it as free software, but can't
> > prevent
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On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> So the question is -- is there any other possible resolution I do not
> see here besides just keeping .py suffixes and providing a lintian
> override?
The implementation language is irrelevant to users and thus should not
be in the nam
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