Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I would venture to guess that even with a perfect oracle, it would be > essentially imposible to reverse engineer the Unicode data files, much > less the ancillary algorithms. That is, a 32 bit search space with at > least 36 properties to be discovered per

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Craig Dickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Branden Robinson wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:20:26PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > > So, can a standard be DSFG free? > > > > Strictly speaking, no. A standard is an idea, or a collection of ideas. > > There are many ways to express an idea,

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 02:23:56PM -0800, Craig Dickson wrote: > The correct question, I think, is "Can a standards _document_ be DFSG > free?" I think it could be, but most probably are not; a standards > document is usually copyrighted by the organization that governs the > standard, and in the a

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 05:18:38PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 08:33:08PM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > However, if that data can only be usefully expressed in precisely that way > > (that is, reverse-engineering those algorithms would regenerate the file) > > then the

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Branden Robinson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:20:26PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > So, can a standard be DSFG free? > > Strictly speaking, no. A standard is an idea, or a collection of ideas. > There are many ways to express an idea, so there are many ways to > express a standard. Some of

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 08:33:08PM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > However, if that data can only be usefully expressed in precisely that way > (that is, reverse-engineering those algorithms would regenerate the file) > then the copyright on the file is probably unenforceable. Exactly. If there is no

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:20:26PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > So, can a standard be DSFG free? Strictly speaking, no. A standard is an idea, or a collection of ideas. There are many ways to express an idea, so there are many ways to express a standard. Some of these expressions may receive copyri

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > The license on Unicode explicitly grants permission to make such > > derivatives, if they even are such, in free programs. > > Reference? I don't recall seeing this mentioned earlier in this thread, > and it is not at all clear from a quick perusal of

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Thomas Bushnell writes: > I believe at this point you are raising FUD. I believe I was attempting to discuss the subject calmly and rationally while avoiding inflammatory language such as "you are raising FUD". > The license on Unicode explicitly grants permission to make such > derivatives, if t

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Thomas Bushnell writes: > > The copyright is on the *file* and not on "the data",... > > Did I say it was? > > > ...and certainly not on the *information* which the file contains. > > An instantiation of that information could be considered a derivative

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 08:12:57AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Thomas Bushnell writes: > > The copyright is on the *file* and not on "the data",... > > Did I say it was? > > > ...and certainly not on the *information* which the file contains. > > An instantiation of that information could be con

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Thomas Bushnell writes: > The copyright is on the *file* and not on "the data",... Did I say it was? > ...and certainly not on the *information* which the file contains. An instantiation of that information could be considered a derivative of the copyrighted work. My second paragraph explains o

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > starner writes: > > If you run most algorithms specified by Unicode, like normalization, > > capitalization or the bidirectional algorithm, you do it with the use of > > the data from UnicodeData.txt, whether you copied it from there or copied > > it from

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Thomas Bushnel writes: > > A program can use the algorithms specified by Unicode without any copying > > of Unicode, and can thus be entirely free. > > What is UnicodeData.txt for? Do programs actually use it in some way, or > is it just a reference for

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

starner writes: > If you run most algorithms specified by Unicode, like normalization, > capitalization or the bidirectional algorithm, you do it with the use of > the data from UnicodeData.txt, whether you copied it from there or copied > it from the Unicode book. That's what I thought. Therefor

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

John Hasler writes: > Thomas Bushnel writes: > > A program can use the algorithms specified by Unicode without any copying > > of Unicode, and can thus be entirely free. > > What is UnicodeData.txt for? Do programs actually use it in some way, or > is it just a reference for programmers, like the

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Thomas Bushnel writes: > A program can use the algorithms specified by Unicode without any copying > of Unicode, and can thus be entirely free. What is UnicodeData.txt for? Do programs actually use it in some way, or is it just a reference for programmers, like the description of a protocol? --

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

"Bernhard R. Link" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021203 17:35]: > > OK, now, supposing that the unicode license is found to be non-DSFG > > free, and hence that UnicodeData.txt is non-free. > > > > Suppose a program implements either unicode collation, regular exp

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

* Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021203 17:35]: > OK, now, supposing that the unicode license is found to be non-DSFG > free, and hence that UnicodeData.txt is non-free. > > Suppose a program implements either unicode collation, regular expressions, > or any of the other things mentioned above. >

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > OK, now, supposing that the unicode license is found to be non-DSFG > free, and hence that UnicodeData.txt is non-free. > > Suppose a program implements either unicode collation, regular expressions, > or any of the other things mentioned above. > > (coll

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

> > If a system simply declared a section of data to be > > UniCode data, and made no attempt to comprehend the contents, it > > probably would not need to have access to the contents of Unicode.txt. > > Just like if a system simply declared a section of data to be > code complaint to Fortran-2026

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

>> But they clearly do not want you to modify anything, including >> character name! Character name is a searchable field, which some >> applications may need. > >It's an English field, for which there is a canonical translation >for French, and there should be translation for other languages.

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

> But they clearly do not want you to modify anything, including > character name! Character name is a searchable field, which some > applications may need. It's an English field, for which there is a canonical translation for French, and there should be translation for other languages. > The

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > But, I suspect that any sane judge would also say that extraction for > the purpose of "license laundering" is not implied. That is, you could > not take the Unicode Consortium's file, apply cat to it, and relicense > the result under BSD (for example). Su

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 10:43:42AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Now, where in the Unicode license does it give you permission to create > > derivative works? The license does say "Information can be extracted > > from these files...". Oh, and y

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > This is straying terribly far from field, but are you saying that it is > morally correct that the debian project modify standards without > permission of the standards body? Or that it is morally correct to > incorporate (portions of) other programs in you

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Now, where in the Unicode license does it give you permission to create > derivative works? The license does say "Information can be extracted > from these files...". Oh, and you have to provide "an accompanying notice > indicating the source". > > The l

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > There are all sorts of reasons why you might wish to create derivative > > works based on the standard -- a new standard for a different purpose, for > > example. > > Derivative works are covered by copyright. Period. I would advise that > you not base

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 07:30:57PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 11:16:07AM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 11:06:12AM +1300, Nick Phillips wrote: > > > There are all sorts of reasons why you might wish to create derivative > > > works based on the sta

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 11:16:07AM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 11:06:12AM +1300, Nick Phillips wrote: > > There are all sorts of reasons why you might wish to create derivative > > works based on the standard -- a new standard for a different purpose, for > > example. > > De

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 11:10:09AM +0100, Bernhard R. Link wrote: > * Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021130 18:43]: > > Huh? If I change the text of the standard, I have changed the standard! > > For example, if I have : > > 0332;COMBINING LOW LINE;Mn;220;NSM;N;NON-SPACING UNDERSCORE > > a

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 11:06:12AM +1300, Nick Phillips wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 12:35:25PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > > > I think you are missing the points here. > > > > > > First of all, DFSG applied to the standard does not want to change the > > > standard, > > > but wants all to

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Giacomo Catenazzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I never read ISO C In this case it's a bad idea to write C programs. You should use a programming language where the standardization committee fought with ISO to publish the text of the standard under a free (even libre) license. ;-) > Are databas

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

* Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021130 18:43]: > Huh? If I change the text of the standard, I have changed the standard! > For example, if I have : > 0332;COMBINING LOW LINE;Mn;220;NSM;N;NON-SPACING UNDERSCORE > and change this to > 0332;NON-COMBINING LOW LINE;Mn;220;NSM;N;SPACING UND

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 12:35:25PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > I think you are missing the points here. > > > > First of all, DFSG applied to the standard does not want to change the > > standard, > > but wants all to be able to change the text of the standard. > > Huh? If I change the text o

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 11:37:41AM +0100, Bernhard R. Link wrote: > * Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021128 03:35]: > > So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow > > debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions. > > Absent said permission,

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Richard Braakman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 02:58:38PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote: > > > UnicodeData is different, because we need the data in our program, > > > not only the ideas. And it this case we see that as software! > > > > Maybe you're right that we don't reall

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

* Jim Penny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [021128 03:35]: > So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow > debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions. > Absent said permission, which is hardly ever going to be given, they > must be considered non-f

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Paul Hampson writes: > Patents are civil actions, while copyright violation is criminal,... In the US copyright infringement is usually (not always anymore, but still usually) civil as well. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:02:07PM +0100, Emile van Bergen wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:47:52AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > > Emile van Bergen writes: > > > I'd say that the definition of Unicode, heck even ASCII, involves a fair > > > amount of creativity. > > > > I don't doubt

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 05:46:04PM +, Mark Brown wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:33:43PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > > > These days I wouldn't be eager to rely on the limits of copyrightability. > > >CNN.com - Composer pays for piece of silence - Sep. 23, 2002 > >

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:45:48AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Richard Braakman writes: > > But do you think it's _okay_ for such a file not to be free? > > /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt, which I assume is the file > you are talking about, contains just a table of data. Unless it

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Hi, On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:47:02PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:02:07PM +0100, Emile van Bergen wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:47:52AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > > > > Is it possible to create other Unicode tables that serve the same purpose > > > as

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:02:07PM +0100, Emile van Bergen wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:47:52AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > I'm arguing that the _creation_ _of_ _that_ _table_ > > involved no creativity, not that the invention of Unicode didn't. > > Well, so you say that if I write a nove

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:57:35 +0200 Richard Braakman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 02:58:38PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote: > > > UnicodeData is different, because we need the data in our program, > > > not only the ideas. And it this case we see that as software! > > > > Mayb

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Hi, On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:47:52AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Emile van Bergen writes: > > I'd say that the definition of Unicode, heck even ASCII, involves a fair > > amount of creativity. > > I don't doubt that the development of Unicode involved creativity: under > current law it probabl

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Emile van Bergen writes: > I'd say that the definition of Unicode, heck even ASCII, involves a fair > amount of creativity. I don't doubt that the development of Unicode involved creativity: under current law it probably qualifies as a patentable invention. Inventions and ideas, however, cannot b

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:33:43PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > These days I wouldn't be eager to rely on the limits of copyrightability. >CNN.com - Composer pays for piece of silence - Sep. 23, 2002 > It's worth pointing out t

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 06:07:57PM +0100, Emile van Bergen wrote: > However, in these perverse times, where companies patent hyperlinks, I > honestly have no idea whether Unicode itself is owned but licensed > royalty-free, or as free as say, ASCII or English. These days I wouldn't be eager to rel

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Hi, On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:45:48AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Richard Braakman writes: > > But do you think it's _okay_ for such a file not to be free? > > /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt, which I assume is the file > you are talking about, contains just a table of data. Unl

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Richard Braakman writes: > But do you think it's _okay_ for such a file not to be free? /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt, which I assume is the file you are talking about, contains just a table of data. Unless its creation involved creativity rather than just "sweat of the brow" it

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 02:58:38PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote: > > UnicodeData is different, because we need the data in our program, > > not only the ideas. And it this case we see that as software! > > Maybe you're right that we don't really need the rfc's in main. They > actually are now and it

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:55:31 +0100 Giacomo Catenazzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No, we can live without standard in main. I never read ISO C and POSIX > standards (because these was non free (like free beer)). But > I program GNU/Linux in C. Also the RFC are not enough free, but I see > no probl

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Tim Dijkstra wrote: So doesn't this mean it's time to change the social contract or the DFSG (are standards software?) to make an exception for 'documents and files describing standards'. It's clear that we can't live without them (hence should be in main), and it is also clear there is no use in

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:53:00 -0500 Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > > I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it > > > doesn't go far enough. > > > > > > There is no permission granted to make modificati

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 05:00:55PM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The problem is, every character in Unicode, all 70,000 of them, has a > distinct set of properties. UnicodeData.txt is basically a listing of > those properties. If it is a copyrightable work, That's a big if, and the answer may

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

[Jim trimmed from CC; I'm not sure why his address was in your M-F-T.] On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 09:43:33AM +1100, Brian May wrote: > Just out of curiosity, are documents like the DFSG distrubuted with > Debian? Well, certainly some documents "like" the DFSG might be distributed as part of the Debi

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

>> Does this mean every unicode text editor belongs in contrib (depends on >> something non-free)? > >Many (perhaps all) RFCs are non-free as well; does that mean that >compliant implementations must go into contrib or non-free? The problem is, every character in Unicode, all 70,000 of them, has a

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:53:00PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > > I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go > > > far enough. > > > > > > There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distr

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > So, according to Branden, international standards are supposed to allow > debian the right to modify them and to distribute the modified versions. > Absent said permission, which is hardly ever going to be given, they > must be consi

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:23:51PM -0500, Jim Penny wrote: > > I see no problem with this license as far as it goes, but it doesn't go > > far enough. > > > > There is no permission granted to make modifications (and distribute > > modified versions). (DFSG 3) > > So, according to Branden, inter

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:54:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:59:00PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > > Heh. There's another: > > > > > > miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz > > > > >

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 07:59:00PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > Heh. There's another: > > > > miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz > > > > The current version is Unicode 3.1.1. > > According to http://www.unicode.org

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:50:10AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > Heh. There's another: > > miscfiles: /usr/share/misc/unicode.gz > > The current version is Unicode 3.1.1. According to http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.html there's a version 3.2. Hmm, is this file Free?

Re: location of UnicodeData.txt

Radovan Garabik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I am developping a (simple) application that needs to have > UnicodeData.txt file available. Of course there are more applications > that need this file. So far I found these two: > perl-modules: /usr/share/perl/5.8.0/unicore/UnicodeData.txt > console