is really still there, but the problem I was actually
annoyed by was showing ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8. If anyone cares about
apt and friends converting to legacy locales, they can reopen this and
assign it back to apt or file a new bug.
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On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 01:45:24PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Honestly, I could care less whether it's in contrib or main
It's nice to see that Debian Developers actually care about their Social
Contract, and hold acceptance by Debian in such high regard.
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rware (166Mhz / 64 M mem).
> >
> > But that's just it. It's for *sending* mail only. What is the
> > purpose of a GUI for sending mail?
>
> The small memory footprint. In minimalistic Window manager +
> minimalistic program to send mail.
Err, who uses GTK
ify that).
But it's what it does say, and I don't see how an estoppel argument based
on something RMS has said is relevant, when RMS does not own the work.
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 07:41:03AM +0100, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 07:53:39PM -0500, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > Nobody is lying. A "lie" is an untruth made with the intent to
> > deceive. Debian doesn't try to hide these unmodifiable lic
s with three paragraphs that seemed like a reply to
someone arguing "documentation isn't software, so it doesn't have to be
free", but nobody was doing that.
> --
> ksig --random|
er? :)
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gt; works depend on a package containing a rootkit. This way, their
> installation would always comply with the license.
Or another popular argument these days, "not being allowed to put a password
on your machine is just a practical problem, which doesn't make the license
non-free"
the proposer of this option another reason to think about rewording
it: whether editorial or not, the labelling of GR2004-003 as such *has*
caused such attacks. If you want invariant sections and the rest of the
problems to be considered free, say so.)
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onstitution. Those loopholes
can always be created, if everyone is allowed their own interpretation of
the rules; that's not an indication of lack of forethought.
Fortunately, as is typically the case, everyone is not allowed their own
interpretation of the rules.
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sts of the DFSG or not," are you seriously
> saying that such a resolution requires only a majority vote?
If you take these "interpretive" GRs as not requiring 3:1, then you can
bypass the 3:1 requirement entirely merely by phrasing your changes as
an "interpretion", and y
terms", and how one
really could apply the DFSG to texts, but not terms, and end up with something
reasonable. Not really a worthy fight, of course, but if you want to
formalize an exception, then I think knowing the difference is important.
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n in main" before
> long.
Before or after the next renaming of "creationism", I wonder?
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e patch clauses,
there are so few of them that it's probably not that big a battle, but
if you do want to fight that fight, I don't think "PHP" is any worse
than "Apache", so the objection should be extended across the others
and not single out PHP.
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ility from the fact that my fingers have
>
> If your fingers aren't talking to you, perhaps you should also list them
> as MIA.
Finger habits are hard to change, especially for an editor like vi. Ridicule
is unwarranted.
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n't always have the ability to install packages.
> Please cc me on replies.
This is the only time I'll do so, to remind you to set Mail-Followup-To.
It's your job to set headers expressing your preferences (which you
only have to do once, in your mailer configuration), not everyone el
orms Debian supports?
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opinion is not interesting; and it would let
people get an idea if a lot of people are voting based on rationale
that has been discussed and disproven (eg. "vim is huge" and "vim
differs too much from vi").
(I wish people had to write a few paragraphs justifying their votes
for government elections. Votes in essay format. One can dream ...)
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ot with the actual numbers
> might make sense.
I'd much rather have to use a system with vim and my .vimrc installed, but
lacking a few "big" features like syntax highlighting, than have to use
nvi. For me, it's a clear win: at least I can edit files. I'm probably
On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 01:11:20PM +0100, Gabor Gombas wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 12:19:16AM -0500, Glenn Maynard wrote:
>
> > Well, I get to use other people's systems now and then, and I'm always
> > having
> > to ask people to install vim. If vim is
default, then people who like old vi get it, and people who like
new vim can change it with just .vimrc. A rare opportunity--everybody wins. :)
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:37:59PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 10:58:02PM -0500, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > > TBH, I think these are showstoppers. Otherwise, as long as the space issue
> > > is fixed as you say it is, sounds fine.
> > I'm c
er
used old vi, so I don't know the accuracy of the claim, but everything listed
so far are things that :set compatible "fixes". (Except maybe the display of
"cw"--I'm not sure if nvi or vim's display is how vi did it.)
[1] http://www.vim.org/viusers.php
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imple configuration change is a showstopper? (":set
compatible noautoindent" in /etc/vim/vimrc.) I havn't seen any significant
differences between vi and vim mentioned that aren't trivially fixed.
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library images",
though, which is a specific term that clearly excludes shell scripts.)
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On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 04:44:13PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
> Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > ":set compatible" will switch Vim's behavior for all of these, except for:
>
> Nope, I was running vim in compatible mode (the default without a
> ~/.vimrc) for all of them.
s out of
insert mode" behavior.
> - some commands like 'cw' display differently in vim, although the end
>result of the keystrokes is the same for all the standard vi commands I
>use
(don't know)
> - nvi flashes the screen/bell when a command fails; vim does not
":set visualbell"
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ult on most lists: usually, most people in a
discussion are subscribed. It makes more sense to me to require that the
few people posting to a list unsubscribed set a header saying so, than
the majority of people posting subscribed do so.
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right".
Incidentally, I care less about papers than many other things, so I'm not
going to spend much effort to try to convince people to DFSG-free them;
however, I'm a bit interested to understand the rationale behind not wanting
to, from people who are beyond "I don't wa
mething darkly amusing about arguments coming from Free Software
people that sound very close to "intellectual property". I wonder if people
will start suggesting copy protection with DMCA enforcement. :)
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with a subj
optional
case, the people who think all of the papers should be free will debate
the cases that weren't; and in the compulsory case, the people who think
papers shouldn't have to be free will debate theirs.
Both of these are after the fact. What should happen is what is happening:
debate t
sponse: it should be no big deal for people to freely license
their papers, so they can be packaged later in Debian. This isn't a big,
difficult fight.)
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the other
seven or ten times someone has claimed this, and received the same
response, and not waste time rehashing this again unless there's
something new to add. :)
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/01/msg00826.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00242.html
On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 03:54:01PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Glenn Maynard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [051104 14:40]:
> > On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 02:05:43PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > * Wouter Verhelst:
> > >
> > > >> Lets assume you have GPL-ed
ny *distributed* changes to foo.c must be contributed back to the
> > community.
>
> Huh? Why do you think so?
Because that's what the GPL says, in relatively plain language.
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velty joke program. If that's a "great utility" in your view,
then I find your opinion hard to take seriously ...
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On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 07:19:44PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 June 2005 09:21, Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 05:58:11PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
> > > Rejecting every suggestion for an improvement is not helpful
ate or in any way reduce the value of pointing out the bad
ones.
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;well, I don't care about that, so
you shouldn't either", and that's incredibly unconvincing.
(I don't care about @debian.org mail per se; I care about the fact that
Debian acts as a role model in the community, and Debian's practices will
directly affect those o
, typically, even for round-trips to many
mailing lists. Reducing that to minutes on average is beyond unacceptable.
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tory, on the other hand, would cut it down, on my system,
by almost 40%.)
This just seems like change for the sake of change, with trivial benefits,
if any.
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worth the bother.)
Most applications I've seen that use libexec make it entirely trivial
to move it to /usr/lib: "./configure --libexecdir=/usr/lib". (I don't
think apps that don't do this, or something like it, should be a major
consideration here--take apps out of the stone age, don't clutter my
/usr ...)
I'm just not seeing any benefits that are worth bloating /usr.
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f I could convinced logins/su to not force a pointless
delay on an incorrect password--the only thing more annoying than mistyping
my password is having my own system force me to wait. One of these days I'll
get annoyed enough by this to track down why "FAIL_DELAY 0" isn't b
ype of stuff on -legal, not on
> -devel, the technical discussion list?
How, exactly, is .muttrc and the "pine experience" relevant to debian-legal?
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On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 12:28:29AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> On 5/10/05, Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In the past, UW has (in my opinion) played deliberate word games to
> > retroactively revoke the Freeness of a prior Pine license, and this license
&g
ast, UW has (in my opinion) played deliberate word games to
retroactively revoke the Freeness of a prior Pine license, and this license
is clearly non-free *without* any such stretching or contriving.
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Pine License and Legal Notices
Pine and Pico are registered trademarks of the
at your option")
like the GPL's be used in a shrink-wrap license?
I also don't understand why you're so opposed to it. Why should I not be
able to say "you can distribute under these conditions; in addition, John
may offer you a new license in the future, terms which you may accept or
ignore"?
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ered". Making mboxes available wouldn't make things any easier for
address harvesters.
(In practice I don't spend much time reading old threads, and it's more
convenient to read a couple messages by Googling for a Message-ID than to
download big mboxes. I wouldn't use them ve
me--so please don't dismiss it. Package names are a shared
namespace, and must be chosen intelligently.
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On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 05:28:46PM +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 03:03 -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > > They might one day. It's possible to restrict http://lists.debian.org to
> > > stop or slow down people leeching across the web archives.
> &g
ur collective memory." I'd hope that such a header as
"No-External-Archive" would never be honored (except perhaps to bounce
the message--the only acceptable way to not be archived is to not post).
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2002/03/msg00091.html
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For which the simple answer is:
> > Read http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml
>
> I have the same question around for some months.
> I have read the link above but I didn't find any reply.
> Any extra clue?
Those of us on d-legal have no idea what your q
m willing to continue arguments pertaining to the GFDL,
but these "we didn't *really* want to require documentation to be free"
arguments are going nowhere and are a waste of time, so I'm dropping them.
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tly clear: documentation must be
Free, according to the DFSG, and nothing short of another GR will change
that. I believe this to be obvious and self-evident. (The rest is
tangental, and this conversation has too many mini-threads, so I'm
leaving it at that.)
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On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 09:31:53PM -0700, Brian Nelson wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 12:03:07AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 05:31:52AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > If you really want to retain your "everything is software" point of
d
remain in Debian because you're not able to do so.
Your argument here can just as easily be applied to anything non-free;
would you seriously claim that, if Qmail was in main and I was to file
a bug against it for being non-free, that it should remain in main until
I write a replaceme
this is irrelevant: if people really think that
non-free documentation should be allowed in Debian, propose a GR to
allow it. Nothing short of that will make it so. If people really
think they were "tricked", fine--fix it with another GR. Unless and
until that happens, Debian's po
cumbersome, but I do
> feel that the mixture of different "freeness" in non-free is a bit
> unfair for those pieces of software that just fail a small point.
I don't believe "forbidden to be modified in any way" to be a "small point".
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nd why a given restriction is non-free.
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case you'll hear a loud laugher.
Maybe, since you conspicuously omitted the "and therefore" part in
case 2; the practical problems with invariant sections have been well
explored. (I'm not going to waste my time digging up discussions about
them for you, since you'll j
non-essential (non-license-
text) pieces that *can't be modified at all*, or even removed. (I find it
continually disappointing that people will actually argue that completely
invariant, untouchable text is "free enough"; I have to wonder why they're
even here.)
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on-free; rather, we don't want gcc's documentation to *be* non-free.
The moving to non-free is just a side-effect; Adrian seems to be
saying that we should eliminate the side-effect and ignore the core
problem.
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with a sub
e one you reference above[1]), people
debate them for a while, and opinions change, becoming better formed and
more strongly grounded as a result of debate.
[1] referring to the current "on hold" SC, per GR 2004-003:
http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_003
[2] The link on the DWN page is wrong; a currently accurate one is
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2001/11/msg00096.html
or Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
[3] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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ches people that they need non-free
things". Here's a tip: it's a *good thing* to teach people that they
still need non-free things, if it's the truth; it just might inspire
people to create free versions, or convince the FSF to free up their works.
That's a fundamental reaso
even though as a practical matter Debian
would be forced to grumble and accept any problems that are found. (As
I mentioned in my last mail, the "unmodifiable license text" "problem"
is not GPL-specific.)
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with
nse I've seen in use, including the 2-clause BSD
license and the X11 license.
FYI, I found the above via google: site:lists.debian.org "license texts"
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t;All GPL'ed programs have to go to non-free"
a troll. I believe this is self-evident to everyone reading this
thread, so I don't feel obligated to explain myself further.
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all, unless one limits oneself to public domain works.
Adrian, you're deliberately wasting the project's time with a very old,
eternity-since-debunked "argument". That's known as "trolling". Unless
you have something of value to say, go away.
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nd there's no References: header, which
makes threads much harder to follow, and will probably get you ignored by
many people since your posts won't appear in the normal flow of the thread.
(I actually do point them out in the hope that you'll fix them. If you
don't care enoug
tupid. The very phrasing was lightly humerous, not an attack.
(I don't know why I'm replying seriously to a nameless top-poster with
an email address "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", though. My bad. :)
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be used, not just GNU tools.
s/GNU //?
(Putting "GNU" there reminds me vaguely of the back of a shampoo container:
"After shampooing with Pantene(tm) Shampoo, follow up with Pantene(tm)
Conditioner, Pantene(tm) skin cleanser, ...")
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orry, couldn't be helped. :)
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)
> (Maybe it's time to resurrect non-us)
I don't know how many times this can be said: non-us is *not a solution*
to patents affecting the US, and never has been. AFAIK, non-us was an
archive that was uploaded to from outside the US, but could be freely and
legally used from insi
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> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Read all of the messages. The relevant info is right there.
Do it! NOW!
Er.
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tributions,
while Debian is, from what I recall, the *only* way to get a sensible Unix
installation on many of the less common systems.
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bably not sufficient to allow
redistribution in non-free, either.
Please see:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/01/msg00267.html
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nconvenience others?
(Seems more like an "anti-anyone-mailing-me-at-all" measure, really. Why
would anyone put up with this?)
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#x27;t know which is most appropriate.)
I'd hope it wouldn't be called "life", though.
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usr/bin/strip shows
no sign of the -f option mentioned in the info page found from your
google search). I had no idea it was even implemented, though.
(Aha: the strip tool mentioned is in elfutils, which is non-free. Blah.)
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wit
IT degree, Zen Cart can be installed and
> > set-up by anyone with the most basic computer skills. Others are so
> > expensive ... not Zen Cart, it's FREE!
>
> So what does it actually do, besides generate buzzwords?
But he seems to be having so much fun writing bad comme
hat only work with non-free servers.
Err, that's what I meant:
> (It's not clear whether data beyond the scope of Debian--such as comics
> being downloaded--are relevant to this, either, but that's another debate.)
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For example, the
vast majority of the stuff that runs in Wine is non-free--but not all, so
Wine goes in main. The relative quantities aren't relevant.
(It's not clear whether data beyond the scope of Debian--such as comics
being downloaded--are relevant to this, either, but that&#
m dropping out of a "debate" after
my abuse tolerance is exceeded.
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o in main; after all, they're "useful" for developing
and testing free reimplementations of those libraries. This is just an
argument for dropping contrib entirely and merging it back into main.
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with a subject of "u
;
above), I just can't bring myself to condemn those who we are unwilling to
ignore
it completely.
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;s a legitimate way to work around blatent copyright
abuse, so it gets more slack than blatent SC evasion; but I can't put my
finger on any tangible difference in these cases, and maybe there isn't
one.)
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headers to say what he wants, too. It's a lot more
time-effective, mail for mail, than trying to teach people how to use their
MUA.)
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7;t get CCs. Maybe
> you doing something wrong then? Please ask those people how you can rid off
> of off-list CC replies.
This is incorrect. The proper way to respond to lists in Mutt (especially
on Debian lists, where it's policy) is to add the lists to "subscribe",
and press "L" (list reply).
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ion.
As everyone understood his point, it has not been lost--regardless of how
many times you assert that is has.
[1] "You cannot justify the bad things that happen as a result of your
actions by saying that your goals *require* bad things to happen."
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I think some indication of removal is useful, I mark it with a
blank line between quotes, instead of ">"; this is clear enough, since
the full text is always available. All text in all messages is relevant
to other text; not removing text which is relevant to some other quote
would mean never removing anything. (As your complaints about my quoting
are both frivilous and in a somewhat demanding tone, I doubt I'll respond
to them any further.)
--
Glenn Maynard
rk availability removed - RELEVANT CONTEXT]
The removed quotes were superfluous to my response, so no, they weren't
relevant. Stop yelling.
--
Glenn Maynard
best.
> > This could be as simple as mounting a tmpfs on /lib/firmware, and wgetting
> I'd say that a local cache is needed, though whether it's used should be up
> to the local admin.
... so I don't know why we're talking about implementation details. :)
--
Glenn Maynard
oid them and still achieve your
> > goals.
>
> There is no comparison between killing people and bouncing email. Whatever
> point you were trying to make is lost. The thread is over.
You're the one trying to force that comparison, not TB, so it's apparently
your point that's been lost.
Nice try, though.
--
Glenn Maynard
ng me to have any non-
free dependencies in main that I want? Of course not--and the same thing
doesn't work if the secondary CPU is on a sound card's DSP or a SCSI card's
processor. The CPU being used isn't an important metric here (even if
it's not obvious what the real metric is).
--
Glenn Maynard
ed to be removed, overwritten, or lost; where I'd call a device
with a hosed flash "broken". (The former I'd sell on eBay as "drive
only, no packaging, drivers or manuals"; the latter I'd expect to see
sold "AS-IS, UNTESTED".)
However, this is a corner case, and I think the "simpler" cases of simple
on-card flash should be dealt with before banging our heads on the corner
cases.
--
Glenn Maynard
r. Despite that,
the emulator would still go in contrib.
(The firmware debate is due, in part, to it not being immediately clear
whether a driver requiring firmware to fire up a device counts as
"depend[ing] on an item of non-free software", but your emulator example
has no such ambiguity.)
--
Glenn Maynard
On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 09:39:46AM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 02:37:45AM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> >> Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > No, there
d Erik
> Naggum, so this should be a walk in the park.
So now you're saying that expecting that documentation be Free is "idiocy",
and that the majority doesn't actually want it, despite the very clear
results of GR 2004-003. Sorry, that's a tired old complaint that's not
even worth refuting ...
--
Glenn Maynard
ctionary lawyers nitpick
"software", the real point is probably long lost, anyway ... :)
--
Glenn Maynard
On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 02:37:45AM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No, there's a very concrete reason: given an installation of Debian
> > main, the driver works. Drivers that require non-free firmware don't
>
shed hardware is a broken device" analogy is
bought, the fact remains that many copies of the hardware still do function,
having working firmware. The existance of non-working hardware is irrelevant.
--
Glenn Maynard
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