Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Aldric Giacomoni
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:24:13 +0100, Petr Baudis wrote: > > Go Seigen is happily still alive and running his own (afaik fairly > renowned) study group. Wrt. his opinion about the opening, see e.g. > > http://gobase.org/studying/articles/mioch/goseigen/interview-3.html Well .. I flatly apolo

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Stefan Kaitschick
I admit that I was narrowly parsing words. I do like your "bermuda triangle" :-) Stefan - Original Message - From: "Robert Jasiek" To: "computer-go" Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book Stefan

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Robert Jasiek
Aldric Giacomoni wrote: I'm pretty sure Robert's thought pattern when playing openings that way is a little more than "This intersection will do" and a little less than "This guarantees me a victory". Rather my thinking is: "Can I transform the initial position into a middle game position that

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Robert Jasiek
Stefan Kaitschick wrote: almost any intersections 3rd line and above ... The first statement is a pretty good definition of random. In contrast to random play, nobi, kosumi (except in the corner), empty triangles and the like must be avoided and the opposing stones' position should be taken

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Petr Baudis
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 06:59:13AM -0600, Aldric Giacomoni wrote: > On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:26:43 +0100, "Stefan Kaitschick" > wrote: > >> Characterising the style quickly, it can start the first few moves at > >> almost any intersections 3rd line and above ... > > > >> Ignorants call the early m

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Aldric Giacomoni
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:26:43 +0100, "Stefan Kaitschick" wrote: >> Characterising the style quickly, it can start the first few moves at >> almost any intersections 3rd line and above ... > >> Ignorants call the early moves "random" but it is only because they lack >> an understanding of their r

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Stefan Kaitschick
> Characterising the style quickly, it can start the first few moves at almost any intersections 3rd line and above ... Ignorants call the early moves "random" but it is only because they lack an understanding of their reasoning ... The first statement is a pretty good definition of rando

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Robert Jasiek
Ingo Althöfer wrote: I am not completely happy with this name. While I don't mind whether it is called by my KGS or my real name. The term sum-style is more frequent though because more kibitzes have a chance to watch me online than in real world tournaments. IIRC, kibitzes invented the term

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Robert Jasiek
terry mcintyre wrote: What is "sum-style"? Look through my KGS games as "sum" with Black when I play non-standard fuseki. This is called "sum-style" or "Jasiek-style". Many MC programs happen to have a similar style now but they developed theirs a bit later after I had started mine and both d

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-11 Thread Stefan Kaitschick
Ofcourse I can't say what a "correct" opening is. What I can say though, is that if bots are onto something with their strange openings, at this point it's by accident. It is not by accident, it is consistent with what the bot can read. What I mean is that it may well be legitimate to play "

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Alain Baeckeroot
Le 10/11/2009 à 15:56, Stefan Kaitschick a écrit : > > Ofcourse I can't say what a "correct" opening is. > What I can say though, is that if bots are onto something with their strange > openings, at this point it's by accident. It is not by accident, it is consistent with what the bot can read. >

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Petr Baudis
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:10:53PM -0800, terry mcintyre wrote: > Robert, > > Your post is the first usage of "sum-style" that I have seen -- and I haven't > turned up anything at senseis.xmp.net. > > What is "sum-style"? Can you elucidate? Do I have to read the book? It is best to watch some

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread terry mcintyre
at since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others. - Edward Abbey From: Robert Jasiek To: computer-go Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:04:12 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book Ingo Althöfer wrote: >> ..

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Robert Jasiek
Ingo Althöfer wrote: ... I do not mention some obvious mistakes. Are they later in the game(s), or also some in the openings? Also some during the opening. (Every dan player can point them out to you. Ask those that can distinguish sum-style from obvious mistakes.) -- robert jasiek

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread terry mcintyre
When building a joseki database, there is a caveat which may not be obvious to kyu-level players: Some joseki sequences depend upon ladder relationships. When the ladder succeeds, the joseki move may be brilliant. When the ladder fails, the same sequence leads to disaster. Smart opponents wi

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Robert Jasiek
Ingo Althöfer wrote: 2 x vs MoGo Game Black wins by resignation: W4 is violating my copyright:) (The move is perfectly ok, except that a position like up to 8 is much easier to play with reversed colours.) 10 is terrible. 14 is good shape but the moyo value is a but too small because D9 is hig

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Stefan Kaitschick
t are incorrectly evaluated because the losing side can play its moves in any order while the winning side cannot. Stefan - Original Message - From: "Robert Jasiek" To: "computer-go" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

Re: [computer-go] Re: Joseki Book

2009-11-10 Thread Robert Jasiek
Ingo Althöfer wrote: So, do you believe that the human problem of overestimating early territory is more severe than the MCTS-bot problem of overestimating influence? Of course, I was exaggerating as much as Stefan:) The truth is: We simply don't know the perfect play's degree of territory vs