2011/5/23 Daniel Werner :
> On May 22, 10:53 pm, Laurent PETIT wrote:
>> Your discussion has been slowly getting me into the mindstate that
>> I'll add this missing "reindent whole file/current selection" feature
>> in CCW, AH !
>
> Or, perhaps into a separate library so we can use your reindentin
On May 22, 10:53 pm, Laurent PETIT wrote:
> Your discussion has been slowly getting me into the mindstate that
> I'll add this missing "reindent whole file/current selection" feature
> in CCW, AH !
Or, perhaps into a separate library so we can use your reindenting
feature in Emacs, VimClojure etc
2011/5/22 mike.w.me...@gmail.com :
> Lee Spector wrote:
>>If I understand correctly you're suggesting that a user working with an
>>editor and a REPL, which aren't connected
>
> That being the mimimal configuration that I think of as "useabe".
>> , run something in the REPL to see the structure of
On May 21, 2011, at 6:47 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is a *different* problem than the one being solved, which is getting an
> accurate representation of the structure of the code. In particular, it's
> different enough that I don't think it makes the required list for a minimal
>
Lee Spector wrote:
>If I understand correctly you're suggesting that a user working with an
>editor and a REPL, which aren't connected
That being the mimimal configuration that I think of as "useabe".
> , run something in the REPL to see the structure of the code.
>Not un-useful, but of course t
On May 21, 2011, at 5:43 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I agree that having to cut & paste code to get a pretty printed version isn't
> useable - which is why I didn't suggest that. I suggested a function that
> would take a file name and pretty print the contents as code, which is as
Lee Spector wrote:
>On May 21, 2011, at 4:47 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
>> So, instead of having an editor command region/function reindent to
>show the actual structure of the code, maybe you need to switch to a
>repl and run (indent-code "myfile.clj") to see what the structure
>really is.
On May 21, 2011, at 4:47 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Spector wrote:
> >The reason that I think that this re-indenting feature is so important [etc]
>
> This is an important feature, and I had overlooked it - but does it have to
> be available in the editor? Remember, the goal is a "
Lee Spector wrote:
>On May 20, 2011, at 3:30 PM, David Nolen wrote:
>> Ah I thought you were talking about proper automatic indentation as
>you enter in code not selective *re-indentation*. As far as I can tell
>in the existing Clojure tools there are only varying degrees of
>interpretation as to
On 20 May 2011 23:25, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> On May 20, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Michael Wood wrote:
>>
>> So maybe the problem you're having is that jEdit can't find the
>> clojure.xml mode file?
>>
>
> Not sure, but it does say I'm in Clojure mode... I'm using Mac OS X, BTW...
>
> It sounds from your o
On 20 May 2011 23:07, Lee Spector wrote:
[...]
> BTW from what I can tell JEdit doesn't even do reasonable automatic
> indentation as you enter code in the first place. If I type "(defn foo" and
> hit return the cursor ends up under the second "o" in "foo", and that seems
> pretty weird. If I t
On May 20, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Michael Wood wrote:
>
> So maybe the problem you're having is that jEdit can't find the
> clojure.xml mode file?
>
Not sure, but it does say I'm in Clojure mode... I'm using Mac OS X, BTW...
It sounds from your other descriptions of your own experience like this fa
Hi
On 20 May 2011 21:04, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> To clarify, David, when you say "it just worked" you mean that when you
> select Edit > Indent > Indent lines then the line containing the insertion
> point is moved (left or right, as appropriate) to conform to standard Lisp
> indentation conven
On May 20, 2011, at 3:30 PM, David Nolen wrote:
> Ah I thought you were talking about proper automatic indentation as you enter
> in code not selective *re-indentation*. As far as I can tell in the existing
> Clojure tools there are only varying degrees of interpretation as to what
> constitut
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Lee Spector wrote:
> To clarify, David, when you say "it just worked" you mean that when you
> select Edit > Indent > Indent lines then the line containing the insertion
> point is moved (left or right, as appropriate) to conform to standard Lisp
> indentation con
To clarify, David, when you say "it just worked" you mean that when you select
Edit > Indent > Indent lines then the line containing the insertion point is
moved (left or right, as appropriate) to conform to standard Lisp indentation
conventions with respect to the code above it (e.g. with resp
On May 20, 12:03 am, Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 12:26 AM, michele wrote:
> > It's not really the Emacs tools that are a problem, but the huge
> > amount of web pages trying - with good intentions - to help you
> > installing the Emacs-Clojure stack, but usually lacking some impor
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> On May 20, 2011, at 9:48 AM, David Nolen wrote:
> >
> > The JEdit mode for Clojure has auto-indenting and bracket matching and it
> works just fine for me. If you weren't able to get that to work did you try
> contacting the maintainer of th
On May 20, 2011, at 9:48 AM, David Nolen wrote:
>
> The JEdit mode for Clojure has auto-indenting and bracket matching and it
> works just fine for me. If you weren't able to get that to work did you try
> contacting the maintainer of the mode?
>
Not that I recall but I did mention it in a d
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> I agree that there's a sweet spot for newcomers here, where one uses a
> simple REPL (possibly invoked with lein) and an editor that's not tightly
> coupled, which should make it easier to provide a unified and idiot-proof
> download/install
On May 19, 2011, at 7:43 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The "download the massive IDE" path seems to presume that a newcomer actually
> needs something more than "a simple REPL" in order to get started. I'd claim
> that's wrong - at least in a world where any computer you'd run clojure o
Lee Spector wrote:
>
>On May 19, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Korny Sietsma wrote:
>
>> Experienced developers (who are likely to grok clojure) probably
>already use one of ant / rake / maven / sbt etc.
>
>"Experienced with what?" is the question. Those coming from the Lisp
>world, who are likely both to gr
On May 19, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Korny Sietsma wrote:
> Experienced developers (who are likely to grok clojure) probably already use
> one of ant / rake / maven / sbt etc.
"Experienced with what?" is the question. Those coming from the Lisp world, who
are likely both to grok and to be ready to lov
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 12:26 AM, michele wrote:
> It's not really the Emacs tools that are a problem, but the huge
> amount of web pages trying - with good intentions - to help you
> installing the Emacs-Clojure stack, but usually lacking some important
> detail. It feels like playing a jig-saw p
It's not really the Emacs tools that are a problem, but the huge
amount of web pages trying - with good intentions - to help you
installing the Emacs-Clojure stack, but usually lacking some important
detail. It feels like playing a jig-saw puzzle without being able to
look at the picture on the box
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 7:43 PM, mike.w.me...@gmail.com wrote:
> The "download the massive IDE" path seems to presume that a newcomer
> actually needs something more than "a simple REPL" in order to get started.
> I'd claim that's wrong - at least in a world where any computer you'd run
> clojure
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 7:13 PM, pmbauer wrote:
> Lein is one such option, but unlikely to get official recognition giving
> clojure/core's (arguably correct) decision to stick to maven.
Talk about a heavyweight, intimidating experience. :)
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On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> After initially installing a Clojure package on Ubuntu, I then learned that
> it was totally unnecessary for a project using Leiningen ...
Yeah, part of me wishes that Leiningen would get official endorsement
as "the" build tool for Clojur
pmbauer wrote:
>I'm beginning to think this has degenerated a bit into argument for
>arguments sake.
>
>Yes, JRE. You don't need the JDK to read/eval .clj files. And in the
>context of where this all started, namely, critiques to the current
>getting
>started experience for new users, a 75MB J
Just adding my +1 - as someone relatively new to clojure, leiningen is a
great way to get up and running, for a reasonably experienced developer.
(It's a big improvement on when I first tried clojure a couple of years
ago!)
There seem to be windows instructions at
https://github.com/technomancy/le
I'm beginning to think this has degenerated a bit into argument for
arguments sake.
Yes, JRE. You don't need the JDK to read/eval .clj files. And in the
context of where this all started, namely, critiques to the current getting
started experience for new users, a 75MB JDK + 100MB IDE is exact
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 6:17 PM, pmbauer wrote:
> Mmm, not quite.
> Doesn't clojure run just fine with the 15MB JVM?
Do you mean the JRE? And if so: for development, rather than just deployment?
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Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 6:36 PM, David Nolen wrote:
> On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 6:00 PM, László Török wrote:
>>
>> Scala gets parallel collections (i.e. leverage multi-core CPUs)
>>
>>
>> http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/05/scala-29;jsessionid=BCF6B009442F5F0D9C18A06D3790C3DA
>>
>> just to give this
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 6:00 PM, László Török wrote:
> Scala gets parallel collections (i.e. leverage multi-core CPUs)
>
>
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/05/scala-29;jsessionid=BCF6B009442F5F0D9C18A06D3790C3DA
>
> just to give this thread a new spark...:)
>
Clojure used to have parallel collec
Mmm, not quite.
Doesn't clojure run just fine with the 15MB JVM?
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On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:58 PM, pmbauer wrote:
>> "So now you go download this 100MB IDE" is a little heavy. No?
> Don't forget the JDK alone weighs in at three-quarters of that:
>
> jdk-6u25-ea-bin-b03-windows-i586-27_feb_2011.exe, 76.69 MB
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:58 PM, pmbauer wrote:
>> If ALL you want is a SIMPLE repl you can just go to the tryclojure site.
>> :)
>
> Not quite.
> As far as official disto's go, the current state is a little raw for getting
> started
> And having the official getting started instructions be (as yo
Scala gets parallel collections (i.e. leverage multi-core CPUs)
http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/05/scala-29;jsessionid=BCF6B009442F5F0D9C18A06D3790C3DA
just to give this thread a new spark...:)
2011/5/19 Ken Wesson
> On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:50 PM, pmbauer
> wrote:
> >> The recommended way de
>
> If ALL you want is a SIMPLE repl you can just go to the tryclojure site. :)
>
Not quite.
As far as official disto's go, the current state is a little raw for getting
started
And having the official getting started instructions be (as you suggested)
"So now you go download this 100MB IDE" is
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:50 PM, pmbauer wrote:
>> The recommended way definitely should be one of the painless installs.
>> This works:
>>
>> * Download NetBeans, configuring on the NB homepage for J2SE, and run
>> installer
>>
>> So does this:
>>
>> * Download Eclipse J2SE
>
> Sure, but
>
> The recommended way definitely should be one of the painless installs.
> This works:
>
> * Download NetBeans, configuring on the NB homepage for J2SE, and run
> installer
>
So does this:
>
> * Download Eclipse J2SE
>
Sure, but that's still a lot of work just to get a simple repl.
Th
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:35 PM, pmbauer wrote:
> The official way to get started has way too many sharp edges
> (Download JDK, install, set JAVA_HOME, add JAVA_HOME/bin to path, download
> clojure.zip, extract, sacrifice chicken, run java -cp clojure.jar
> clojure.main) ... at which point you get
The official way to get started has way too many sharp edges
(Download JDK, install, set JAVA_HOME, add JAVA_HOME/bin to path, download
clojure.zip, extract, sacrifice chicken, run java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main)
... at which point you get a kinda crappy REPL. Oops.
Compare to (on linux):
sud
On May 18, 5:06 pm, Sean Corfield wrote:
> I've seen a number of people struggle with the instructions here:
>
> http://clojure.org/getting_started
>
> Let's walk thru the process from a complete n00b's p.o.v. (since this
> is the Getting Started page)...
>
> First thing discussed, the github repo
I think there are a few things most people agree about:
- The people in the comunity are genaraly very nice and help noobs
(stackoverflow, irc. mailinglist ...)
- Clojure.org has very cool content.
- Clojure.org is not a good place for noob
So i propose some things that I think would make a bette
On 05/19/2011 02:06 AM, Sean Corfield wrote:
I've actually found the Clojure community to be one of the most
welcoming and most helpful of almost any technology that I've picked
up in about 30 years. YMMV, I guess, and I'm sure it depends on your
programming background.
Same here, except 30 ye
I've found the community to be very friendly and helpful.
> The problem is that the entire contents of the clojure.org site is
> written by an expert, for experts.
>
...and necessary.
More verbose, newbie-friendly docs are important too, but take a lot more
time and effort (clojuredocs.org, c
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> Now, I will say here that most n00bs I've seen exposed to the REPL
> expect two things to "just work":
> 1. typing help or (help) should display _something_ useful (even if
> it's just a link to the docs),
> 2. typing exit, (exit), quit or (q
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Gregg Williams wrote:
> Steve Yegge's main idea, that "Clojure needs to start saying yes," is
> true on multiple levels.
Well, there's always some truth in most of his rants but I'm not sure
I'd agree that the main thrusts of this particularly rant are true -
he
Gregg Williams wrote:
>Steve Yegge's main idea, that "Clojure needs to start saying yes," is
>true on multiple levels.
It's also BS on multiple levels, which probably has more to do with Steve's
reputation than anything else. But I want to address your focus:
>I'd like to focus the community's
Steve Yegge's main idea, that "Clojure needs to start saying yes," is
true on multiple levels. I'd like to focus the community's attention
on a neglected area that I believe is extremely important to Clojure's
success. I'll do so by restating Steve's main idea in slightly
different words:
Clojure
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Alan wrote:
> For what it's worth, a year ago I had never touched Emacs and was
> terrified by it, partly because of the attitude of superiority Emacs
> users tend to have. But I was learning lisp, and Emacs was reported to
> be the best tool for lisp, so by God I
Chas, Sean, Alan,
thank you for taking the discussion back on track. I completely support
Rich's position re protecting Clojure form becoming bloated with half-baked
features. (half-baked = conceptually and practically mature)
I'm happy to have Rich as a "benevolent dictator for life" :) ( live a
On May 17, 11:00 am, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:34 AM, Timothy Washington
> wrote:
> > I'm a former java developer, whose tried scala, ruby, etc. And with clojure,
> > I haven't been this intellectually excited since I designed my first DSL :)
>
> My commercial background i
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:34 AM, Timothy Washington wrote:
> I'm a former java developer, whose tried scala, ruby, etc. And with clojure,
> I haven't been this intellectually excited since I designed my first DSL :)
My commercial background is primarily (in historical order): C, C++,
Java, CFML -
That particular soap opera found its local minima here:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2053908
I don't think that that is germane to the "Clojure stack" question though.
There are innumerable ways to assemble Clojure applications for any scale
desired; they're discussed here and in #clojur
For the record, I'm trying to get a better understanding of the issues
myself. So mea culpa. I should have provided more context on technomancy's
statement. From my understanding, the issue had to do with technomancy not
getting patches accepted at a faster pace, into clojure core (anyone with
more
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Timothy Washington wrote:
> This is an interesting discussion. Rich Hickey and Steve Yegge recently
> weighed in on the Seajure discussion group (and later discussed on HN).
> Yegge basically takes Laszlo's position (clojure needs to start saying yes),
> while Hic
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Timothy Washington wrote:
> This is an interesting discussion. Rich Hickey and Steve Yegge recently
> weighed in on the Seajure discussion group (and later discussed on HN).
> Yegge basically takes Laszlo's position (clojure needs to start saying yes),
> while Hick
This is an interesting discussion. Rich Hickey and Steve Yegge recently
weighed in on the Seajure discussion group (and later discussed on HN).
Yegge basically takes Laszlo's position (clojure needs to start saying yes),
while Hickey takes Nick's position.
- http://groups.google.com/group/seaju
Coming up with a clojure stack is not really clojury. I think clojure
does not really lack far behind scala/akka and its much simpler.
I don't really know about IDEs I can see how that could be a problem.
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I know about clojure.com. :) Just wanted to point out, that there is some
competition in the space. :)
Enterprise cloud computing is the new buzz word, and the clojure team (or
someelse) will have to come up with a SW stack aiming this space, just as
the typesafe.com guys (Martin Odersky et. al) d
I thing the java guys are late :)
http://clojure.com/
On May 16, 9:42 am, László Török wrote:
> I've just come across this:
>
> http://typesafe.com/company
>
> I believe Clojure will have to take a similar path in order to achieve
> broader (enterprise) acceptance.
>
> I'm sure Rich and the core
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