On 10 August 2015 at 22:39, Eric Christopherson
wrote:
> He corrects that in the video itself :)
Indeed so. Just watched it through for a second time, actually. Great
fun and I too am jealous. :-D
--
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean
> Caron
> Sent: 11 August 2015 14:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> ; Sean Caron
> Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
>
> I do
t;>
>> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around
>>>
>>> -Messaggio originale-----
>>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin
>>> Monceaux
>>> Inviato: lunedì 10 agosto 2015 21:55
>>>
> From: Chuck Guzis
> Could it be that the presence of ECC registered SDRAM requires that
> every memory location get written before boot-up can proceed? There's
> 2GB of the stuff, so that could be the difference.
I was going to suggest that, actually. Turning on ECC in the memor
les, floating around
-Messaggio originale-
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin
Monceaux
Inviato: lunedì 10 agosto 2015 21:55
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
Guy,
On Tue, Aug 04, 2015
org] Per conto di Kevin
> Monceaux
> Inviato: lunedì 10 agosto 2015 21:55
> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
>
> Guy,
>
> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
> > I spent som
Just a follow-up on the problem of a Supermicro P6DGE taking forever to
boot up.
I tried several versions of the BIOS with pretty much the same result.
Since each reset the configuration (CMOS) memory, there was little issue
of an overlooked setting contributing to the slow boot.
I tested th
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote:
> Guy,
>
> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up
>> to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU.
>
> Sadly I'll have to wait un
Guy,
On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up
> to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU.
Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked
where I work. I s
On 08/08/2015 05:56 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
It probably is not this, but maybe you can try it.
For a while HP servers had the extremely annoying property of the
boot being rate-limited by the serial console speed if you had been
unfortunate enough to enable it by default. You would not notice
a
It probably is not this, but maybe you can try it.
For a while HP servers had the extremely annoying property of the
boot being rate-limited by the serial console speed if you had been
unfortunate enough to enable it by default. You would not notice
anything other than the slowness on a video mon
Supermicros (and to a similar degree Tyan) are mostly in the "server class"
of motherboards. That apparently means they put a *lot* of self-test code
in there somewhere. I've had literally thousands of Supermicro machines of
a dozen different types at various times, and they all took an inordinate
On 07/08/15 19:35, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I think that supermicro still has the specs for the board up:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/archive/PentiumIII/440GX/P6DGE.cfm
As you can see, it's pretty basic. It's pretty hard to find
reasonably fast boards with fully-functional IS
On 8/7/15 11:08 AM, jwsmobile wrote:
On 8/6/2015 8:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe
(zSeries) but the aspect of trying
to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block.
I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I
On 08/07/2015 10:26 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote:
I don't think I have your exact supermicro board but ones I've used
in the past have had on board SCSI that had to be disabled otherwise
it would sit there for 30s thinking about why things were so quiet on
the bus.
I think that supermicro still
On 8/6/2015 8:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe (zSeries)
but the aspect of trying
to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block.
I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I started hearing
about the horror stori
On 07/08/15 04:56, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/06/2015 08:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
You might check whether the BIOS config is set to autodetect drives
at startup; in many BIOSes each IDE channel can be set to Auto/None
or a specific config. Try setting all installed drives to a specific
configura
Backing up your console: Clonezilla is your friend.
On 8/6/2015 10:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
> I *really* have to figure out a backup solution for this so that I don't
> get stuck but that
> supposes that I have a way to re-create the OS/2 image that's already
> there if I do have to
> do a
As Al says, the microcode was dynamic and loaded from the boot console.
I remember our (Deluxe Coachlines, Australia, 1987-1990) VAX 8550s and 8820
had PRO based boot consoles.
When we had both 8550s failing with double CPU faults the DEC engineers
loaded new microcode onto the consoles to diagno
On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 02:11:01PM +1200, Mike Ross wrote:
> If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast
> indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename
> 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a
> power-up; let it play to the end a
For sure. When I quoted the 20 minute post time on new 4U machines earlier,
I didn't include the time the four HBAs on those particular machines spent
enumerating each one of the 360 drives connected ... only to poop out at
the end of the process anyway because it runs out of memory in a fixed data
On 08/06/2015 08:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
You might check whether the BIOS config is set to autodetect drives
at startup; in many BIOSes each IDE channel can be set to Auto/None
or a specific config. Try setting all installed drives to a specific
configuration, and any unused channels to None.
Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe (zSeries)
but the aspect of trying
to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block.
I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I started hearing about
the horror stories from
others. I think what helped was tha
Oh it's much bigger. Somewhere I have a photo of them side by side... ah yes:
http://www.corestore.org/ASP3000-IS390.jpg
That's the Warthog next to an Integrated Server 3006 - which uses the
same chassis as the MP3K. So it's both - it's a repackaged MP2000,
*and* it's much bigger than an MP3K! Al
rg" ;
"discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
Subject: Re: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
On 08/06/2015 06:24 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be
> caused by a disk controller R
Is it really "bigger" than the MP3000 or is just a repackaged MP2000
where there
is no emulated I/O?
My MP3000 in addition to 2 72GB Raid-5 arrays has 2 ethernet interfaces,
2 parallel channel
attach points and 2 ESCON channel attach points.
I'm also jealous that you have a 3279 terminal. I'
On 08/06/2015 06:24 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be
caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that
gets invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if
it also enumerates what is on the SCSI bus.
Nope
If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast
indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename
'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a
power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video,
IPLing the beast!
https://www.yo
Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be
caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that gets
invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if it also
enumerates what is on the SCSI bus.
On 8/6/2015 7:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On the
Four, I expect:
CPU, Memory, VAX Interface, Floppy Controller.
I have one in pieces floating around here somewhere.
One of those puppies (probably the one I have) held our VAX hostage for
DAYS while the service folks from the OEM (Intergraph) tried to figure
out what was wrong - they kept blamin
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
The problem is, that even with the "Fast boot" BIOS setting, it takes well
over a minute to get to the point where it tries to boot.
Does anyone have a clue on why it's so slow? Even getting the POST down to
15-20 seconds would be wonderful.
Slow boot ca
On the subject of slow booting, perhaps someone can help me with a very
annoying case of the slowboots.
I've got a dual slot-1 P3 system here--a Supermicro P6DGE, which uses a
440GX chipset and 2GB of registered SDRAM with two 900MHz CPUs. When it
finally get around to s booting, it's a great
On 08/06/2015 04:01 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall
having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;)
Well, the idea is that the console or diagnostic processor
is WAY simpler than the mainframe CPU. So, if the console
computer dies, you
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich
> Alderson
> Sent: 07 August 2015 00:05
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
>
> Subject: RE: SNA was RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 Syst
From: Dave G4UGM
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 11:26 AM
> Excuse me if this isn't Exactly right, but I seem to recall some on
> in IBM saying that Thomas Watson Jr got a phone call one day. It
> went...
> TWJ: Thomas Watson here
> CLR: Is that Thomas Watson Jnr.
> TWJ: Yes
> CLR: and you are th
> I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions
> (i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than
> 5s. ;)
I feel fairly sure you overestimate either the length of the bootstrap
or the per-word time required.
I once used an HP machine with a front-pane
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall
having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;)
Your expertise is the simplest and most reliable way to do it.
I see - I would have guessed quite a few more instructions than that,
based on my PDP-11 experience (my 8/L has only paper tape).
The PDP-12, which I have more experience at, takes about the same amount
of effort/time, but just the one I/O instruction in the switch register
(but then you have to e
On 2015-08-06 23:00, Jay Jaeger wrote:
I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions
(i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than 5s. ;)
You might think so. But when you see the bootstrap for the RK05 on a
PDP-8, you realize that it takes about 5
Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall
having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;)
On 8/6/2015 2:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM
>> 1410 (2 seconds), you could
I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions
(i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than 5s. ;)
On 8/6/2015 1:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was
> basically the time for the disk to
Another reason for an attached service processor is to handle twiddling
of things that the main machine shouldn't have access to. Reconfiguring
memory, adjusting operating margins, monitoring water temperature,
getting hold of detailed status information, etc. In at least one case,
I'm aware
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM
1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in
as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount:
Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably alrea
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
In many cases more than one! ;-)
But more to the point, having a separate processor handing the booting chores
frees the
main CPU from those tasks. Initialization can be a pain just look at the x86
ISA and the
hoops it makes the S/W (BIOS & OS) just
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> The PDP-10 had a PDP-11 console processor.
The early PDP-10 models used the KA10 and KI10 CPUs, which did not
have any separate processor for console/boot/diagnostics. It was
common, however, to have a PDP-8 based communication subsystem, such
On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the
most
obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there is
another
S/390 CPU in the box as well.
PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was
basically the time for the disk to spin up, which was about 10 seconds.
The actual booting of the system is about 0.3 seconds. Add 5 seconds if
you had to manually enter the bootstrap.
Johnny
On 2015-08-06 20:43, Jay
Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM
1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in
as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount:
Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there]
Storage Scan to +1
Sense swit
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin
> Sent: 06 August 2015 19:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>
> Subject: RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
>
>
>
> On Thu
On 8/6/2015 8:10 AM, geneb wrote:
I guess I just don't understand WHY. Wouldn't it be more economical
(both from a manufacturing and sales standpoint) to design a mini or
mainframe that could boot with nothing more than a dumb terminal as a
system console?
g.
Whispers Time Sharing... Sell bi
On 8/6/2015 7:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot?
Quite a lots of larger machines do.
That don't bother me as much as the hidden source software
used with modern (mad laugh) OS code. Ben.
Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows...
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote:
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why
would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it?
"Why CAN'T the operating system have
On 8/6/2015 1:32 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows...
Now how about windows shutting down...
Ben.
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:
Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart"
tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or
editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a
cup of coffee, while the system copied
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the
> most
> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there is
> another
> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to
On 8/6/15 10:43 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
Guzis
Sent: 06 August 2015 17:24
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 06 August 2015 17:24
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 Syst
In many cases more than one! ;-)
But more to the point, having a separate processor handing the booting
chores frees the
main CPU from those tasks. Initialization can be a pain just look at
the x86 ISA and the
hoops it makes the S/W (BIOS & OS) just to get to the point where the OS
can reall
Even modern SOCs and the processor in your PC/laptop have a
micro-controller or PMIC that brings ups the rest of the chip. In the PC
case (verses mainframe) it is on the same die and fabric as the CPU (and
the scads of other CPUs, GPUs, Sensor Hubs, vision processors, etc).
Lee C.
On Thu, Aug 6,
On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U
machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20
minutes to POST - no joke!
Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart"
tape, pushing the button
And so it remains today; most servers sold for data center applications
include a little service processor ... I've found it's usually a little
embedded ARM or PPC ... that you can use for remote console, remote power
control, etc. Although these are not required to bootstrap the system, of
course.
BTW I love your little terminal room there ... these things are on the
fantasy list for me right next to the LISP Machine and TOAD-1, LOL. I
wonder if it runs MTS? :O At least I've got Hercules :O
Best,
Sean
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> And so it remains today; most se
Lots of machines have had console processors that were required for the
machine to run. The PDP-10 had a PDP-11 console processor. The Amdahl
470 had a DG Nova for a console processor, etc. etc.
On 8/6/2015 8:16 AM, geneb wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>
>> Wow. I'll never c
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: 06 August 2015 15:34
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
>
>
>
> On 8/6/15 6:16 AM, geneb wrote:
> > O
On 08/06/2015 07:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having
a small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's
in larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of
patching microcode in ROM.
Apple ended u
On 8/6/15 6:16 AM, geneb wrote:
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own?
Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to
boot it?
Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having
a small computer load it was actuall
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay West wrote:
Gene wrote...
-
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why
would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it?
To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
I'll rate that as "Midly Plausible". :)
N
On 06/08/15 14:38, Jay West wrote:
Gene wrote...
-
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why
would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it?
To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used
> On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>> To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
>>
>> Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot?
>
> Quite a lots of larger machines do.
A lot of machines have I/O processors of some sort, and often those boot first.
You
> To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
>
> Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot?
Quite a lots of larger machines do.
--
Will
Gene wrote...
-
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why
would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it?
To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;)
Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot?
J
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote:
Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows...
One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why
would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot
it?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C
the P/390 / R/390 systems are the smallest, but they don't support a lot
of systems features, such as LPARS and the like that you need to be a
full S/390 system.
Also the card doesn't fully support z/OS. Redbook on page 17 says,
"Don't call us because it looks like it runs z/OS".
The MP3000
On Tue, 4 Aug 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up to
z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU.
I thought the P/390 was the smallest S/390?
Christian
Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows...
Oh that is awesome.
Lee C.
On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up
> to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU.
>
> Even though the video is about 9-1/2 minutes long, it takes longer than
> t
Guy; That's just plain awesome :)
J
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