[bitcoin-dev] Pre-BIP Growth Soft-hardfork

2016-02-07 Thread Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev
Here's a draft BIP I wrote almost a year ago. I'm going to look into revising and completing it soon, and would welcome any suggestions for doing so. This hardfork BIP aims to accomplish a few important things: - Finally deploying proper merge-mining as Satoshi suggested before he left. - Expandi

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 03:51:08PM -0500, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Constructive feedback welcome; [...] > Summary: > Increase block size limit to 2,000,000 bytes. > With accurate sigop counting, but existing sigop limit (20,000) > And a new, high limit on signature hashing To

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pre-BIP Growth Soft-hardfork

2016-02-07 Thread Tier Nolan via bitcoin-dev
This is a specific implementation of the "nuclear option" soft fork (or "firm-fork"). The problem with any hard-fork (like) change is that there is an incentive to add as much as possible and then the process gets bogged down. Since the POW is based on the header 1, you could make header 3 expand

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Saturday, February 06, 2016 5:25:21 PM Tom Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > On Saturday, February 06, 2016 06:09:21 PM Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > > None of the reasons yo

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Jannes Faber via bitcoin-dev
On 6 Feb 2016 4:41 p.m., "Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > Responding to "28 days is not long enough" : > > I keep seeing this claim made with no evidence to back it up. As I said, I surveyed several of the biggest infrastructure providers and the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev
I apologize if this discussion should be moved to -discuss, I'll let the moderators decide, I've copied both. And Gavin, I apologize for picking on you here, because certainly this carelessness in how people represent "facts" applies to both sides, but much of this discussion really infuriates me.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Feb 07, 2016 at 09:16:02AM -0500, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: > There will be approximately zero percentage of hash power left on the > weaker branch of the fork, based on past soft-fork adoption by miners (they > upgrade VERY quickly from 75% to over 95%). The stated reasoning f

[bitcoin-dev] Making a 2MB blocksize hardfork safer

2016-02-07 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
Hello world, The core roadmap calls for having patches at the ready for implementing hardforking blocksize increases [0]. However, at least to my understanding, is that the deployment of segregated witness has a significant impact on what a hardforking blocksize increase should look like -- with s

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Feb 07, 2016 at 10:06:06AM -0500, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev wrote: > And the back and forth discussion over your BIP has been in large part a > charade. People asking why you aren't picking 95% know very well why you > aren't, but lets have an honest discussion of what the risks and in y

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev
On Feb 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wrote: > The stated reasoning for 75% versus 95% is "because it gives "veto power" > to a single big solo miner or mining pool". But if a 20% miner wants to > "veto" the upgrade, with a 75% threshold, they could instead simply use > thei

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev
As I feared, request on feedback for this specific BIP has devolved into a general debate about the merits of soft-forks versus hard-forks (versus semi-hard Kosher Free Range forks...). I've replied to several people privately off-list to not waste people's time rehashing arguments that have been

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread jl2012--- via bitcoin-dev
You are making a very naïve assumption that miners are just looking for profit for the next second. Instead, they would try to optimize their short term and long term ROI. It is also well known that some miners would mine at a loss, even not for ideological reasons, if they believe that their actio

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pre-BIP Growth Soft-hardfork

2016-02-07 Thread jl2012--- via bitcoin-dev
This looks very interesting. The first time implementing it might be more painful but that will make subsequent hardforks a lot easier. Do you think it's good to include the median timestamp of the past 11 blocks after the block height in coinbase? That would make it easier to use it as activation

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev
On Feb 7, 2016, at 9:24 AM, jl2...@xbt.hk wrote: > You are making a very naïve assumption that miners are just looking for > profit for the next second. Instead, they would try to optimize their short > term and long term ROI. It is also well known that some miners would mine at > a loss, even

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev
On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Jannes Faber via bitcoin-dev wrote: > They *must* be able to send their customers both coins as separate > withdrawals. > Supporting the obsolete chain is unnecessary. Such support has not been offered in any cryptocurrency hard fork before, as far as I know. I do

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
I would expect that custodians who fail to produce coins on both sides of a fork in response to depositor requests will find themselves in serious legal trouble. Especially if the price moves against either fork. On 02/07/2016 10:55 AM, Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > On Feb 6, 2016, a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hardfork bit BIP

2016-02-07 Thread jl2012--- via bitcoin-dev
From: Gavin Andresen [mailto:gavinandre...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 5 February, 2016 06:16 To: Gregory Maxwell Cc: jl2012 ; Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hardfork bit BIP >It is always possible I'm being dense, but I still don't understand how this >proposal makes a chain-forking situ

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Trevin Hofmann via bitcoin-dev
Patrick, I would say that a company's terms of service should include their position on this issue. It does not seem reasonable that they all are required to provide access to coins on every single fork. Are custodial wallet users also entitled to Clam, Zcash, and Decred, and others? Regardless,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Tier Nolan via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I would expect that custodians who fail to produce coins on both sides > of a fork in response to depositor requests will find themselves in > serious legal trouble. > If the exchan

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev
On Sunday, February 07, 2016 2:16:02 PM Gavin Andresen wrote: > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > On Saturday, February 06, 2016 5:25:21 PM Tom Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > If you have a node that is "old" your

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Steven Pine via bitcoin-dev
Is it me or did Gavin ignore Yifu's direct questions? In case you missed it Gavin -- ~ "We can look at the adoption of the last major Bitcoin core release to guess how long it might take people to upgrade. 0.11.0 was released on 12 July, 2015. Twenty eight days later, about 38% of full nodes were

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Steven Pine via bitcoin-dev
I agree that it seems like a safe assumption that adoption would be faster, whether it is "very safe" and "significantly faster", whether it will be 6 times faster, all of those assumptions seems significantly less safe and robust to me. The nature of the bitcoin protocol, that it is a decentraliz

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Corey Haddad via bitcoin-dev
We don't have any evidence of how fast nodes will upgrade when faced with an impending hard fork, but it seems like a very safe assumption that the upgrade pace will be significantly faster. The hard fork case it is: "upgrade or be kicked off the network". In the previous cases it has been, "here

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes

2016-02-07 Thread Chris Priest via bitcoin-dev
Segwit requires work from exchanges, wallets and services in order for adoption to happen. This is because segwit changes the rules regarding the Transaction data structure. A blocksize increase does not change the Transaction rules at all. The blocksize increase is a change to the Block structure.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hardfork bit BIP

2016-02-07 Thread Gavin via bitcoin-dev
> On Feb 7, 2016, at 2:27 PM, wrote: > > Normal version number only suggests softforks, which is usually not a concern > for SPV clients. Soft forks affect the security of low-confirmation (zero or one) transactions sent to SPV wallets even more than hard forks, and because many users and b

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hardfork bit BIP

2016-02-07 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Feb 07, 2016 at 03:20:27PM -0500, Gavin via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > On Feb 7, 2016, at 2:27 PM, wrote: > > Normal version number only suggests softforks, which is usually not a > > concern for SPV clients. > Soft forks affect the security of low-confirmation (zero or one) transactions >