On 11/20/2012 03:42 PM, Steve Simon wrote:
How do you studiously not do something? Doesn't the imply working
hard at something?
Indeed, everything I did read about Go made it look very attractive so I am
ignoring it
as I know myself. If I read more I will start to get annoyed that I am wasting
> Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a
> C/C++ programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go?
What is so special a COBOL programmer can't do?
++L
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:54:34AM +, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
> On 11/20/2012 03:42 PM, Steve Simon wrote:
> >>How do you studiously not do something? Doesn't the imply working
> >>hard at something?
> >
> >Indeed, everything I did read about Go made it look very attractive so I am
> >ignor
On Thu Nov 22 04:03:29 EST 2012, charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote:
> usize is indeed the same size as uintptr.
> Instead of either for purely integer values, it would be better to
> make all integers 64 bit, and use uint and int (for pointer
> differences),
> but that causes other problems, at the m
Halo 4
On Nov 22, 2012, at 11:07 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> What is so special a COBOL programmer can't do?
I hadn't noticed that particularly, but having grep'd the source, I
see it's also used for variables that are counters and numbers of
things.
Is that right too? I suspect it's more out of expediency. Some other
type usage looks odd too. int32 where int would do. Curious.
On 22 November 2012 03:44,
> .B char
> can generally be assumed to be a signed value.
What does "generally" mean here? Is it safe to assume or not?
> There are no signed variants of these as they
> are not useful where size-specific types are appropriate.
"Not useful" seems an arbitrary judgment. There are certainly
cas
> usize is indeed the same size as uintptr.
> Instead of either for purely integer values, it would be better to
> make all integers 64 bit
I hope that was intended as a joke. It's not that long ago I was
writing C for a 16-bit processor (in a smart card). I would hate to
lose the meaning of "in
On 22 November 2012 11:00, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
> OTOH, it's not worth making special provision for physical memory addresses.
> I think that any code which is dealing with those is not likely to be
> portable to another architecture for many other reasons. I can't envision
>
To try to clarify: most existing Plan 9 code doesn't worry about the
actual type of sizeof or pointer differences.
They assume int/long or uint/ulong. It's obvious from this discussion
that hardly anyone noticed usize.
Since its introduction years ago, grep shows that only kernel code has
used usiz
> Even port refers to
> physical addresses (eg, Page)
You're right, I should have thought a bit longer. This is
why my PAE hack for xen only supports 4GB of "physical"
(well, virtually physical) memory.
I meant, "detect code". It's easy to find: just look at libflate, but
there were many more.
On 22 November 2012 11:32, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> it's quite
> hard to find code (automatically) that assumes they are 32 bits.
> New C programmers are often confused by
> size_t being unsigned (even experienced ones at times)
Especially experienced ones. My 1978 copy of K&R says
"The expression sizeof(object) yields an integer equal to the
size of the specified object."
Not "unsigned integer". Old habits die hard.
It was in v6 (and a nasty bug):
/*
* sizeof gets turned into a number here.
* Bug: sizeof(structure-member-array) is 2 because
* the array has been turned into a ptr already.
*/
if (op==SIZEOF) {
t1 = length(p1);
p1->op = CON;
p1->type = INT;
On Thu Nov 22 06:01:38 EST 2012, 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:
> > .B char
> > can generally be assumed to be a signed value.
>
> What does "generally" mean here? Is it safe to assume or not?
good point.
> > There are no signed variants of these as they
> > are not useful where size-specific types
i put up corrections
- erik
> "The expression sizeof(object) yields an integer equal to the
> size of the specified object."
>
> Not "unsigned integer". Old habits die hard.
I feel your pain.
We use lint a lot here and it irritates me greatly when it
grumbles about loss of precision in assignment
from sizeof() or nelem()
It was changed in Ritchie's own compiler in v7 as I noted earlier.
It was that, use long, or limit your sizeof'd data to half the 16-bit
address space.
On 22 November 2012 11:54, Steve Simon wrote:
> I wish I had been in the standards meeting with a big stick when somone
> suggested sizeof() retu
Charles Forsyth once said:
> On 22 November 2012 03:44, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > uintptr in all over the go packages because it is right.
>
> I hadn't noticed that particularly, but having grep'd the source, I
> see it's also used for variables that are counters and numbers of
> things.
Can you gi
this is just a sample, but there were other likely candidates:
./src/pkg/runtime/cpuprof.c: uintptr count;
./src/pkg/runtime/cpuprof.c: uintptr count; // tick count
./src/pkg/runtime/cpuprof.c: uintptr evicts; // eviction count
./src/pkg/runtime/cpuprof.c: uintptr lost; // lost ticks that need to
Charles Forsyth once said:
> this is just a sample, but there were other likely candidates:
Ah. I thought we were talking about Go code not C. Carry on.
Anthony
Em 20/11/2012 18:07, tlaro...@polynum.com escreveu:
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 02:58:28PM -0500, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
>>
>> Irony (from the Ancient Greek eir?neía, meaning dissimulation
>> or feigned ignorance)[1] is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or
>> situation in which there is
> so what do you want to do about usize. i can't easily just make it 64-bits on
> nix, because that would require that we get some changes in sources. malloc
> would need to be fixed, etc.
Just tell the plain truth - have I got this right?
Usize is an unsigned integer which can hold the maximum
Java was not in high school, but in 9th grade in a normal German school.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Hugo Rivera wrote:
> Wow, C++ and Java in high school...
> We had nothing like that. Probably because I come from an
> underdeveloped country; but I don't know, maybe having nothing to
> lear
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 09:56:33AM -0500, Calvin Morrison wrote:
> > On 19 November 2012 04:59, Steve Simon wrote:
> >
> > Isn't all C code valid C++? problem solved.
>
>
> As of c99, they have diverged.
>
> They weren't the same in 1998 eit
My advice. Read Scott Meyer's books on Effective C++. He's probably the
most sane of the authors out there. Also Exceptional C++ isn't too bad by
Herb Sutter. It's a bunch of "puzzles" which are kind of fun to work out
but will reveal ignorance at the same time.
C++ Gotchas is kind of a fun bo
On Thu Nov 22 08:50:13 EST 2012, 23h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Java was not in high school, but in 9th grade in a normal German school.
i think you're trying to make a subtile distinction about
the german educational system using american terms. if so,
it would be much less confusing with untranslate
VisitorFactoryBuilderFactorySingletonDecoratorFactory.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Charles Forsyth
wrote:
> I'm writing Java now, after a long gap, and it's ok.
> It has its share of annoying aspects, but it's not too bad.
> Java is a bit like a high-level assembler for the JVM,
> and there
Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is
"geekier-than-thou" nonsense.
Calling C++ or Java a disease? Really?
Suggesting that if you use one of those languages you're somehow mentally
deficient? Really?
Suggesting someone change jobs because they're asked to program in C++?
Re
i agree with your point. but i think that you the statments you point
out are hyperbole.
> In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one
> programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any
> difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone ca
> Usize is an unsigned integer which can hold the maximum size of an
> object declared statically (the sizeof operator returns a value of
> type usize) or created by the usual allocation functions (the size
> argument of malloc is - or should be? - type usize). Usize may be
> smaller than uintptr
On Nov 22, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman
wrote:
>
>>
> Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a C/C++
> programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go?
Is this opinion born out of experience with Go or due to a lack of experience?
They are all Turing c
On Thursday 22 of November 2012 09:38:06 Dan Cross wrote:
> In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one
> programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any
> difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language
> s/he programme
> Halo 4
Whatever it is, I haven't needed it in the past 38 years, should I
have?
++L
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 03:54:11PM +0100, Hugo Rivera wrote:
>
> Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big
> problems in the world have little to do with programming languages,
> particularly c++, which is the topic at hand.
But you are wrong... There are numerous big a
> C++ and java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork
> and strange programming philosophies that you have to "learn" about,
Chances are Go would not be what it is, if it was anything at all,
without the mistakes of C++ and Java (the latter are a mystery to me I
am not even remot
On Thu Nov 22 10:48:35 EST 2012, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 03:54:11PM +0100, Hugo Rivera wrote:
> >
> > Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big
> > problems in the world have little to do with programming languages,
> > particularly c++, whi
> Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big
> problems in the world have little to do with programming languages,
> particularly c++, which is the topic at hand.
Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa
where I live, my hope is to teach unspoi
> Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa
> where I live, my hope is to teach unspoilt, but also uneducated kids
> programming using Go on a Plan 9 platform (the teaching, mostly).
> Doing the same in C++ or Java would demand much more effort on my part
> and much more
On Nov 22, 2012, at 8:00 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of
> programming
> language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting
> code?
Buffer overflow exploits.
Great, you have my admiration, for what's worth. I truly mean that, no
sarcasm or anything alike. It would be much better if I could offer my
support instead, and maybe some day I could try to do something
similar as you are.
2012/11/22 :
>> Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I
Exactly this, Dan. Thanks.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is
> "geekier-than-thou" nonsense.
>
> Calling C++ or Java a disease? Really?
> Suggesting that if you use one of those languages you're somehow mentally
> defic
> and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of
> programming
> language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting
> code?
Come on, Erik, are you suggesting that because there are no studies,
the situation could not exist?
It is only my opinion,
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:00:51AM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> putting aside that i don't believe that the big problems like war and hunger
> have anything to do with programming errors,
There have been already numerous hundreds of millions if not billions of
money losses by financial t
it's an Xbox game. and yes, you
need it ;)
On Nov 22, 2012, at 4:37 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> Halo 4
>
> Whatever it is, I haven't needed it in the past 38 years, should I
> have?
>
> ++L
>
> Great, you have my admiration, for what's worth. I truly mean that, no
> sarcasm or anything alike. It would be much better if I could offer my
> support instead, and maybe some day I could try to do something
> similar as you are.
Nice as it is to receive support, I must warn you that I have no
> it's an Xbox game. and yes, you
> need it ;)
Xbox-360? Surely it runs IBM code?
:-)
++L
On Thu Nov 22 11:15:36 EST 2012, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of
> > programming
> > language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting
> > code?
>
> Come on, Erik, are you suggesting that because the
> 9th grade is usually 1st year "high school" in the us.
DeutschlandUSA
- -
Hochschule college
Gymnasium high school
Sporthalle gymnasium
On Nov 22, 2012, at 8:06 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big
>> problems in the world have little to do with programming languages,
>> particularly c++, which is the topic at hand.
>
> Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apar
On Nov 22, 2012 9:50 AM, "erik quanstrom" wrote:
>
> i agree with your point. but i think that you the statments you point
> out are hyperbole.
That is fair to an extent.
> > In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether
one
> > programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 ass
On Nov 22, 2012 9:56 AM, "dexen deVries" wrote:
>
> On Thursday 22 of November 2012 09:38:06 Dan Cross wrote:
> > In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether
one
> > programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any
> > difference; one could die tom
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:38:06AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is
> "geekier-than-thou" nonsense.
And the rest of this email is "wiser-than-thou" bullshit. Programming
languages ARE tools. If you enjoy using shitty tools to earn your
living,
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:18:03PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> Yes, that would be silly. You need only the screwdriver, provided it's sonic,
> but I suppose that just emphasises your point about tools.
>
You did not get the big picture: the screwdriver is for the engine; the
hammer is to deal
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:22:33 +0100 tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:18:03PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> > Yes, that would be silly. You need only the screwdriver, provided it's soni
> c,
> > but I suppose that just emphasises your point about tools.
> >
>
> You did no
> so that's just an anecdote. i'd like to know more about the subject.
It's not going to be a popular subject, I don't think your curiosity
will be rewarded.
I do agree that culture is very important. I also think that I was
extremely lucky to learn computing at the time when there were many
di
> A friend is developing such
> web/tablet based lessons for similar kids in India (India has as big a
> problem of poor ed. as the whole of Africa).
The BBC reports exceptional success by some NGOs introducing tablets
in rural (central) Africa amongst children. But the price is wrong.
Scrappy,
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
>> 9th grade is usually 1st year "high school" in the us.
>
> DeutschlandUSA
> - -
> Hochschule college
> Gymnasium high school
> Sporthalle gymnasium
>
>
It's
> Ha! Ever programmed in APL?
Don't knock it, to learn APL I had to "shift paradigm" and it was a
very important lesson in my programming education.
++L
> and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of
> programming
> language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting
> code?
Could it help?
http://archive.adaic.com/intro/ada-vs-c/cada_art.html
Pavel
> dan, I don't care about your children.
You may sing a different tune if/when Dan's daughter becomes the
President of the USA.
++L
Nor should you. What she eats is my problem not yours, and it's an
incredibly minor problem. Like, only a little more important than worrying
about C++ and Java.
On Nov 22, 2012 12:33 PM, "hiro" <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> dan, I don't care about your children.
>
>
Thanks for making my point for me.
On Nov 22, 2012 12:13 PM, "Kurt H Maier" wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:38:06AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is
> > "geekier-than-thou" nonsense.
>
> And the rest of this email is "wiser-than-thou" bull
> a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education.
Prove it.
++L
On Nov 22, 2012 12:43 PM, wrote:
> > Ha! Ever programmed in APL?
>
> Don't knock it, to learn APL I had to "shift paradigm" and it was a
> very important lesson in my programming education.
No doubt. As a learning exercise, such things are great. But I don't know
that the brand of brevity engend
PS2 development is generally too expensive for the cost model of education
games, sadly.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:39 AM, wrote:
> > A friend is developing such
> > web/tablet based lessons for similar kids in India (India has as big a
> > problem of poor ed. as the whole of Africa).
>
> The BB
> In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one
> programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any
> difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language
> s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that.
> No doubt. As a learning exercise, such things are great. But I don't know
> that the brand of brevity engendered by APL really leads to fewer defects.
No, although you don't have to look as far to find the errors :-)
++L
> PS2 development is generally too expensive for the cost model of education
> games, sadly.
Thanks, that helps. If anyone knows something that contradicts the
above, I'd be keen to hear it.
++L
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:40:25PM +, Pavel Klinkovsky wrote:
> > and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of
> > programming
> > language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting
> > code?
>
> Could it help?
> http://archive.adaic.com/int
> I remembering finding Iverson's book "A Programming Language" quite
> interesting.
I don't remember the book any more, but I did read the library copy in
its entirety, maybe even more than once and was thrilled when the
university almost accidentally got an APL interpreter from Univac for
their
> Books do still get printed btw.
I'm still looking for a copy of Hollindale and Toothill's "Digital
Computers" (from memory, of course), which I remember being another of
the formative books I was privileged to read.
++L
On Nov 22, 2012, at 6:38 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> I wonder if there's an assumption that usize is a novelty. It has been
> in u.h for at least 5 years.
yes, there was such assumption on my behalf. I haven't seen it before erik
posted
the man page, now after some grep'ing I see it's being
>> I remembering finding Iverson's book "A Programming Language" quite
>> interesting.
> ...
> Today it is just a topic for nostalgic conversation,
What Iverson did next:
http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07/265
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education.
>
> Prove it.
>
Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of OLPC working groups
in your area?
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:45:51PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> Thanks for making my point for me.
Someone had to. It sure wasn't you.
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Richard Miller wrote:
9th grade is usually 1st year "high school" in the us.
DeutschlandUSA
- -
Hochschule college
Gymnasium high school
Sporthalle gymnasium
I thought that Uni was equal to college here in
Only if she give me free healthcare and hookers.
--
Veety
On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> I remembering finding Iverson's book "A Programming Language" quite
> interesting.
I highly recommended Iverson's Turing Award lecture "Notation as a tool of
thought".
http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm
http://awards.acm.org/images/
On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:12 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> I remembering finding Iverson's book "A Programming Language" quite
>> interesting.
>
> I don't remember the book any more, but I did read the library copy in
> its entirety, maybe even more than once and was thrilled when the
> unive
> To put it another way, I consider emotional arguments about programming
> languages so unimportant that they pale in comparison to encouraging my
> daughter to eat a healthy breakfast; starving kids in other countries
> didn't even enter my mind.
emotional areguments are poor arguments, regardle
Ay, Curamba!
This discussion is exactly why we need Boyd.
But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an
unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn
my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when
he was spending his time dra
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> > a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education.
>>
>> Prove it.
>>
>
> Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of OLPC working groups
> in your area?
Sounds more like an accusation than a response
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 05:31:52AM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> >> > a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education.
> >>
> >> Prove it.
> >>
> >
> > Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of
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