Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

On 17/08/15 00:34, J. Landman Gay wrote:
You're right. It was also it increase the user base, which it did 
considerably, so that LC would become better known and accepted 
generally. As you say, the move to open source was also meant to allow 
others to contribute to the engine so that fixes and new features 
would be incorporated more quickly. Unfortunately that hasn't been the 
case; except for a few skilled people (actually I can only think of 
two offhand) the community has not done much there.


Contributing to the engine requires that LiveCode users have what is 
called 'meta-knowledge', i.e. they understand other programming

languages (specifically C++ as I understand).

NOW, a long time ago, I contributed by making a different toolBar stack 
(which was used by other people), and more recently I made a stack to 
muck around with both the menuBar and the toolBar stacks: while these 
are mainly cosmetic they can help people's work-flow.


The first toolBar stack went the way of all flesh at about version 2.1 
because of a general interface change.


I would love to contribute a lot of stuff that I have stored on a 
variety of hard drivers that I have accumulated over the last 14 years 
or so: of varying utility - if I could find somewhere to store this 
online (at no cost to myself as I have NO money), and where people could 
get at it
because it was properly publicised (perhaps via the LiveCode webpage) I 
would upload all of it is a shot.


OH! Where is the unified IDE that was waved around during the 
Kickstarter thing, and doesn't seem to have come up on the 'Report Card'?


Now, if, coupled with the Open Source release there had been some sort 
of details about how non-specialists could contribute that would

have been a great help.

Also, with the 'NON' nature of revOnline recently, and so on, a library 
of reusable stacks/code snippets that is freely and universally available

has been a bit difficult . . .

Also: the Profit Motive is very strong . . . let's see some incentives, 
however small, and that may drive user contributions up.


After all, at Primary schools kids collect stars . . .



I've contributed a tiny little bit to fix an IDE bug but that's about 
as far as my own skills go.


I wonder what made the folks at LiveCode think that there were lots of 
'experts' lurking out "there", when most people either

use LiveCode or use another language (such as C++) elsewhere?

Richmond.




On 8/16/2015 3:07 PM, Roger Eller wrote:
In my opinion, it was to give it a chance to grow, by incorporating 
other

open tech, and also to just KEEP UP with the ever changing tech world
without consuming the inadequate resources of the mother ship.
On Aug 16, 2015 2:46 AM, "Terence Heaford"  wrote:




On 16 Aug 2015, at 07:42, Kay C Lan  wrote:

I thought THE objective of the KickStarter Campaign was to make LC 
Open
Source and Free to the Community. Wasn't that achieved? Everything 
else

was

just secondary but in support of that goal.



Can you give us your opinion as to why LC was made Open Source?


Thanks

Terry


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

On 17/08/15 06:30, Roger Eller wrote:

I am surprised that anyone would expect a lot of coding help to rise out of
the LC community.  Sure there are a few who have experience in the lower
level languages, but my sole reason in choosing LC was for the English-like
syntax.  I don't know, nor do I want to learn C or Objective C or anything
else.  I started with HC, and it ends with LC for me.



Very well put indeed.

I didn't start with HC: I gave up computer programming for good
because I really couldn't be bothered with Pascal, FORTRAN and so on.

It was HC that got me going again.

I took side trips to Toolbook and so on, but
when I found LiveCode I felt I had 'come home', and
I am, effectively, a one-trick pony nowadays.

LiveCode used to claim (c.f. RR 1.1.1 handbook) that the whole of
LiveCode was constructed in LiveCode . . . therefore, surely, we can
also do further construction?

Richmond.

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

On 17/08/15 09:22, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 2015-08-17 04:30, Roger Eller wrote:
I am surprised that anyone would expect a lot of coding help to rise 
out of

the LC community.  Sure there are a few who have experience in the lower
level languages, but my sole reason in choosing LC was for the 
English-like
syntax.  I don't know, nor do I want to learn C or Objective C or 
anything

else.  I started with HC, and it ends with LC for me.


One of the most important things that we are achieving with LiveCode 
Builder is to make it possible to write LiveCode itself in LiveCode.


+1

Although, as far as I understand the LIveCode builder language is 
different from the LiveCode standard language.


We really want to enable people who know how to program in LiveCode to 
extend and improve the LiveCode engine themselves, to add the features 
they need and fix the bugs that affect them. LiveCode Builder is a key 
milestone towards that goal.


  Peter



Richmond.

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Mark Schonewille]

"At the time of the Kickstarter campaign" was not made explicit.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Installer Maker for LiveCode:
http://qery.us/468

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner" 
http://qery.us/3fi


LiveCode on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/runrev/

On 8/17/2015 08:44, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 2015-08-17 06:43, John Dixon wrote:

Fully agreed. Which is why I hope the LC Team continue to focus on
their Commercial Customers and provide them with features that keep
them coming back.

I think I've made it obvious I feel the LC Team should be cut some
slack and Commercial Customers deserve a feature set beyond just
locked code.


The Kickstarter campaign announced  a community version (open source)
that would be the same as a commercial version (closed source) , less
the ability to secure code ?... Why should that change ?


Nothing has changed.

The Kickstarter campaign (which was *well* before I joined the project)
announced an open source community version of LiveCode that would have
all the features that were in the commercial version **at the time of
the Kickstarter campaign**.  As far as I have been able to tell, at no
point did RunRev rule out adding new, commercial-only features in the
future.

  Peter



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

On 17/08/15 13:16, Mark Schonewille wrote:

"At the time of the Kickstarter campaign" was not made explicit.

+1

Indeed.



--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Installer Maker for LiveCode:
http://qery.us/468

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner" 
http://qery.us/3fi


LiveCode on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/runrev/

On 8/17/2015 08:44, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 2015-08-17 06:43, John Dixon wrote:

Fully agreed. Which is why I hope the LC Team continue to focus on
their Commercial Customers and provide them with features that keep
them coming back.

I think I've made it obvious I feel the LC Team should be cut some
slack and Commercial Customers deserve a feature set beyond just
locked code.


The Kickstarter campaign announced  a community version (open source)
that would be the same as a commercial version (closed source) , less
the ability to secure code ?... Why should that change ?


Nothing has changed.

The Kickstarter campaign (which was *well* before I joined the project)
announced an open source community version of LiveCode that would have
all the features that were in the commercial version **at the time of
the Kickstarter campaign**.  As far as I have been able to tell, at no
point did RunRev rule out adding new, commercial-only features in the
future.

  Peter



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[RunRevPlanet]

Thank you Richmond:

> OH! Where is the unified IDE that was waved around
> during the Kickstarter thing, and doesn't seem to
> have come up on the 'Report Card'?

During the Kickstarter Campaign it quite plainly says under the heading of, What
is your money going toward?

"We will introduce a new visual editor designed around today’s usability
standards."

And then under the next heading of, Technical Summary of Kickstarter
Deliverables:

"Create a new, beautiful graphical front-end for building your apps"

Of all the goals in the Kickstarter project, this was *the* one that appealed to
me the most.

It has not been delivered, and based on the current LiveCode 8.0 DP and the rate
of progress since the Kickstarter Campaign ended two years ago, I do not expect
to see anything like what was shown halfway down this page:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode/description

before late 2017 at the earliest. If the LiveCode team prove me wrong I will be
delighted, but every time a new deal, project, or initiative is announced such
as:

"bring HTML5 Web Delivery to LiveCode"
"one time opportunity to protect you against this and any future price rises"
"a new Business Application Framework"

I am reminded that I am still stuck with an awful IDE, when I thought I had
already paid for something a whole lot better.

If this is a rant then I am sorry, but a new IDE was a clearly stated goal of
the Kickstarter Campaign and I don't think it gets mentioned enough in these
discussions.

--
Scott McDonald
"Components, Controls, Tools and Resources for LiveCode"
www.runrevplanet.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

 
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode/description
 

"Fall 2013 Final Delivery"

2 years behind completion.

Richmond.

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Nice to Meet You!

[Ray]

My wife and I are in Edinburgh over the weekend just to see Scotland's 
beautiful capital city.  On our way to the airport today we to stopped 
by Livecode's office.  I would have been happy just to say hello to 
Heather, probably the only staff member who might remember me from a 
conference years ago, but Ian spent five minutes or so and introduced me 
to the staff both upstairs and down.  It was a real kick to meet 
Livecode's staff and see everybody working, especially Fraser who gave 
me a quick peek at his large monitor full of code which will become the 
much anticipated HTML5 release.


For nearly two decades I've posted questions, bugs, and other issues on 
this site.  Today's my opportunity to just say thanks to the Livecode 
team.  It's really a great product.


Nice to meet you!

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

RunRevPlanet wrote:


Thank you Richmond:


OH! Where is the unified IDE that was waved around
during the Kickstarter thing, and doesn't seem to
have come up on the 'Report Card'?


During the Kickstarter Campaign it quite plainly says under the heading of, What
is your money going toward?

"We will introduce a new visual editor designed around today’s usability
standards."

And then under the next heading of, Technical Summary of Kickstarter
Deliverables:

"Create a new, beautiful graphical front-end for building your apps"

Of all the goals in the Kickstarter project, this was *the* one that appealed to
me the most.


Why?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richmond]

On 17/08/15 17:40, Richard Gaskin wrote:

RunRevPlanet wrote:


Thank you Richmond:


OH! Where is the unified IDE that was waved around
during the Kickstarter thing, and doesn't seem to
have come up on the 'Report Card'?


During the Kickstarter Campaign it quite plainly says under the 
heading of, What

is your money going toward?

"We will introduce a new visual editor designed around today’s usability
standards."

And then under the next heading of, Technical Summary of Kickstarter
Deliverables:

"Create a new, beautiful graphical front-end for building your apps"

Of all the goals in the Kickstarter project, this was *the* one that 
appealed to

me the most.


Why?



Having pointed out the new front-end I should perhaps state that I am 100%
happy with the current one, and would be extremely disappointed if a new 
front-end were produced

that did not allow users to choose the previous one as an option.

The 'problem' is that that was a Kickstarter goal which has not 
materialised and appears to have been

swept under the carpet.

Richmond.

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Paul Dupuis]

On 8/17/2015 10:47 AM, Richmond wrote:
> On 17/08/15 17:40, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> RunRevPlanet wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Richmond:
>>>
 OH! Where is the unified IDE that was waved around
 during the Kickstarter thing, and doesn't seem to
 have come up on the 'Report Card'?
>>>
>>> During the Kickstarter Campaign it quite plainly says under the
>>> heading of, What
>>> is your money going toward?
>>>
>>> "We will introduce a new visual editor designed around today’s
>>> usability
>>> standards."
>>>
>>> And then under the next heading of, Technical Summary of Kickstarter
>>> Deliverables:
>>>
>>> "Create a new, beautiful graphical front-end for building your apps"
>>>
>>> Of all the goals in the Kickstarter project, this was *the* one that
>>> appealed to
>>> me the most.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>
> Having pointed out the new front-end I should perhaps state that I am
> 100%
> happy with the current one, and would be extremely disappointed if a
> new front-end were produced
> that did not allow users to choose the previous one as an option.
>
> The 'problem' is that that was a Kickstarter goal which has not
> materialised and appears to have been
> swept under the carpet.

Irrespective of things taking longer that forecast (or desired), if I
recall correctly, one of the prerequisites of the "new IDE" was the
ability to display a stack in a area in another stack and this engine
feature will only be available in the LC 8 series.



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Re: Nice to Meet You!

[Mark Wieder]

On 08/17/2015 05:44 AM, Ray wrote:


My wife and I are in Edinburgh over the weekend just to see Scotland's
beautiful capital city.


OMG! You're in Edinburgh during festival month and you're only staying 
for a weekend?


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: How to minimize delay when playing an audio clip

[Chris Sheffield]

Another trick that I’ve used in the past (when using players; I’ve haven’t used 
imported audio clips much) is to play a very short, silent audio file at some 
point in a preOpenCard or openCard handler. This kind of gets the audio ball 
rolling so to speak, then when I need to play my actual audio, there is no 
delay. Whatever needs to load in the background in order for audio playback has 
already loaded. A bit of a hack I suppose, but it works. :-)

Chris


--
Chris Sheffield
Read Naturally, Inc.
www.readnaturally.com

> On Aug 15, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Mike Bonner  wrote:
> 
> I have an audio clip that I'm using as a sound effect.  I try to trigger
> the play start FIRST in my game loop, but no matter what methods I try
> (even breaking it out of the game loop itself) there is a pretty hefty lag
> time before it starts playing.  Enough so that its possible to have an
> event happen, and stop the play of the clip before it ever starts.
> 
> I don't think i'm having issues with a bound cpu, I think 'play audioclip
> "myclip" looping' is just that slow.  If I hold the key down, it works
> fine, animation keeps up, and stop is pretty much instantaneous.  Is there
> a way to get this working better?  I'll try with an actual player next, but
> I thought having the clip as part of the stack would provide the best
> results.
> 
> 
> Also, a quick question..  I assume there is no way to modify the tone of a
> clip on the fly?  IE: Simulate doppler shift..
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Re: Bug getting group name, plse check

[William Prothero]

Folks:
My initial comment arose because I, through searching the dictionary, couldn’t 
find how to get the group name of a control that was in a group. The best 
result I had was by searching with google. I could enter something like: “How 
do I get the group name of the group that a control is within?” I got pointed 
to a forum post which got me started. Then Richard provided the final answer 
that let me know the critical word was “owner”. 

I think it’s critical that every statement, property, command, be correctly 
entered in a dictionary. But, it  can be impossible to guess the command that 
might be relevant for a specific operation and often it’s not intuitive. Google 
is my friend in this case, as is this list. 

Regarding tagging, searching, etc, I’ve experienced very primitive search boxes 
and they can be extremely primitive. (read useless almost). It is very 
difficult to build a great search system. Google has done that. It is possible 
to get Google to index web pages. Perhaps there should be thought given to 
taking advantage of Google search to get the context information that we need 
from the dictionary.

I don’t know what would be involved in creating this, but it could be made much 
more useful than what we have now.

BTW, for search phrases, the topic heading of emails to this list would be a 
great resource. However, unless there is some flexibility for variations in the 
search phrase in the search engine, the situation won’t improve. Everybody says 
things differently.

Regards,
Bill

> On Aug 16, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> William Prothero wrote:
> > Richard:
> > This is an example of how difficult it can be to find docs on an
> > operation that isn’t commonly used and that doesn’t have “obvious”
> > syntax.
> ...
> > Perhaps if there was a dictionary based, not on livecode commands,
> > but on operations that the user wants to perform, with great search,
> > it would be helpful.
> 
> We definitely need tagging in the Dictionary, something I'll be pushing for 
> as we finally get the ball rolling with the Community Documentation Team soon.
> 
> With searchable tags anyone can add terms that will help others find relevant 
> tokens.
> 
> If you were able to add tags to the "owner" Dictionary entry, what would 
> those be?  What sorts of terms and concepts come to find when looking for 
> ways to refer to objects in the message path?
> 
> 
> > Then again, this list is a great source of this kind of info too.
> 
> This list is great, and so are the forums, but IMO people rely on them sooner 
> in the process than would be ideal.
> 
> LiveCode is a very unusual language so it requires much care in how it's 
> presented, and more importantly in it's indexed, so searches can be made for 
> concepts and not just keywords.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> LiveCode Community Manager
> rich...@livecode.org
> 
> 
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Re: Nice to Meet You!

[Ray Horsley]

I know - but we sure enjoyed the weekend.
On Aug 17, 2015 9:54 PM, "Mark Wieder"  wrote:

> On 08/17/2015 05:44 AM, Ray wrote:
>
> My wife and I are in Edinburgh over the weekend just to see Scotland's
>> beautiful capital city.
>>
>
> OMG! You're in Edinburgh during festival month and you're only staying for
> a weekend?
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[William Prothero]

I contributed to kickstarter because I saw the vision of a reasonably priced 
authoring system that kept up with the always evolving technology.  Some 
technologies are important to a few high level developers, while others become 
widely adopted, like pdf and zip. The idea that the livecode vision would be 
“frozen in time” and future enhancements would be charged extra, certainly is 
contrary to what I had expected.

I have the resources to pay for my authoring system. The opensource option will 
bring in new users, which is good. I want the mothership to be sustainable. 
However, I do think they will need to be strategic about what goes into the 
free and “indie” versions and what they include in an enhanced version of some 
kind. If I have to buy a costly enhanced package to get widely standard 
capabilities like pdf and zip, I will not like it at all.

Regards,
Bill

> On Aug 17, 2015, at 4:31 AM, Richmond  wrote:
> 
> On 17/08/15 13:16, Mark Schonewille wrote:
>> "At the time of the Kickstarter campaign" was not made explicit.
> +1
> 
> Indeed.
> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Mark Schonewille
>> 
>> Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
>> Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
>> KvK: 50277553
>> 
>> Installer Maker for LiveCode:
>> http://qery.us/468
>> 
>> Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner" 
>> http://qery.us/3fi
>> 
>> LiveCode on Facebook:
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/runrev/
>> 
>> On 8/17/2015 08:44, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>>> On 2015-08-17 06:43, John Dixon wrote:
> Fully agreed. Which is why I hope the LC Team continue to focus on
> their Commercial Customers and provide them with features that keep
> them coming back.
> 
> I think I've made it obvious I feel the LC Team should be cut some
> slack and Commercial Customers deserve a feature set beyond just
> locked code.
 
 The Kickstarter campaign announced  a community version (open source)
 that would be the same as a commercial version (closed source) , less
 the ability to secure code ?... Why should that change ?
>>> 
>>> Nothing has changed.
>>> 
>>> The Kickstarter campaign (which was *well* before I joined the project)
>>> announced an open source community version of LiveCode that would have
>>> all the features that were in the commercial version **at the time of
>>> the Kickstarter campaign**.  As far as I have been able to tell, at no
>>> point did RunRev rule out adding new, commercial-only features in the
>>> future.
>>> 
>>>  Peter
>>> 
>> 
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Re: Bug getting group name, plse check

[Mike Bonner]

Its pretty easy to set up a custom search engine in google.  I created a
cse restricted to 4 sites. www.livecode.com forums.livecode.com
lessons.livecode.com and the nabble site.  I'm sure there are settings that
might help it work better.

Like all google search, you can improve results with quoted phrases etc.
Heres a link to the one I set up.
https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=002762050828011275793:09mnfq5cmmy


On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:19 AM, William Prothero 
wrote:

> Folks:
> My initial comment arose because I, through searching the dictionary,
> couldn’t find how to get the group name of a control that was in a group.
> The best result I had was by searching with google. I could enter something
> like: “How do I get the group name of the group that a control is within?”
> I got pointed to a forum post which got me started. Then Richard provided
> the final answer that let me know the critical word was “owner”.
>
> I think it’s critical that every statement, property, command, be
> correctly entered in a dictionary. But, it  can be impossible to guess the
> command that might be relevant for a specific operation and often it’s not
> intuitive. Google is my friend in this case, as is this list.
>
> Regarding tagging, searching, etc, I’ve experienced very primitive search
> boxes and they can be extremely primitive. (read useless almost). It is
> very difficult to build a great search system. Google has done that. It is
> possible to get Google to index web pages. Perhaps there should be thought
> given to taking advantage of Google search to get the context information
> that we need from the dictionary.
>
> I don’t know what would be involved in creating this, but it could be made
> much more useful than what we have now.
>
> BTW, for search phrases, the topic heading of emails to this list would be
> a great resource. However, unless there is some flexibility for variations
> in the search phrase in the search engine, the situation won’t improve.
> Everybody says things differently.
>
> Regards,
> Bill
>
> > On Aug 16, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:
> >
> > William Prothero wrote:
> > > Richard:
> > > This is an example of how difficult it can be to find docs on an
> > > operation that isn’t commonly used and that doesn’t have “obvious”
> > > syntax.
> > ...
> > > Perhaps if there was a dictionary based, not on livecode commands,
> > > but on operations that the user wants to perform, with great search,
> > > it would be helpful.
> >
> > We definitely need tagging in the Dictionary, something I'll be pushing
> for as we finally get the ball rolling with the Community Documentation
> Team soon.
> >
> > With searchable tags anyone can add terms that will help others find
> relevant tokens.
> >
> > If you were able to add tags to the "owner" Dictionary entry, what would
> those be?  What sorts of terms and concepts come to find when looking for
> ways to refer to objects in the message path?
> >
> >
> > > Then again, this list is a great source of this kind of info too.
> >
> > This list is great, and so are the forums, but IMO people rely on them
> sooner in the process than would be ideal.
> >
> > LiveCode is a very unusual language so it requires much care in how it's
> presented, and more importantly in it's indexed, so searches can be made
> for concepts and not just keywords.
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
> > LiveCode Community Manager
> > rich...@livecode.org
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: Restore corrupted stack

[Bob Sneidar]

This happened to me the first time I opened a stack in version 7. Check to see 
if there is a stack file with a tilde (~) in the name in the same folder as the 
original stack. When LC attempts to convert a stack, it saves the old stack 
using a tilde in the name so you can recover if something has gone horribly 
awry. This file can be renamed and opened in the old version of LC.

If you can do all this, the next thing to do is subscribe to a decent cloud 
based backup system that has versioning, so you can recover in case things go 
catastrophically awry (not to be confused with horribly awry, which is not 
nearly as terrible as catastrophic).

Bob S


On Aug 15, 2015, at 11:18 , J. Landman Gay 
mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com>> wrote:

On 8/14/2015 11:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff wrote:
Yes, I understand the change in stack format. Unfortunately the stack
won’t open in any version of LC 7. I always get the stack corrupted
dialog.

In that case I think the team would like to see the stack, so it's probably 
time for a bug report.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | 
http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Bug getting group name, plse check

[Richard Gaskin]

William Prothero wrote:

> Regarding tagging, searching, etc, I’ve experienced very primitive
> search boxes and they can be extremely primitive. (read useless
> almost). It is very difficult to build a great search system. Google
> has done that. It is possible to get Google to index web pages.
> Perhaps there should be thought given to taking advantage of Google
> search to get the context information that we need from the
> dictionary.

The degree of difficulty in delivering good search results is in 
proportion to the conceptual range of queries and the size of the data 
being searched.


If we want to provide accurate search results for everything from 
"arrayEncode" to "Britney Spears", and do so across billions of Web 
pages, best leave that to the pros.


But to search for terms related to LiveCode keywords is a much smaller 
problem, both in conceptual scope and index size.


Besdies, with LiveCode we need an embedded search engine, something 
small and nimble enough to be usable on any computer even when not 
connected to the Internet.


The scripts for indexing and retrieving content isn't the hard part. 
The hard part is prioritizing it so it gets done.


Truly great indexing can be a lifetime's work; indeed for many it is.

But our needs are so modest, and our current search so limited, that 
even just a non-stemmed full-text index of the current Dictionary, with 
extra weight for token names, would satisfy a majority of requests quite 
well using data already in hand and reasonably simple scripts.


If we then add crowd-source tags, the index would get ever smarter over 
time with minimal scripting effort.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org

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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Devin Asay]

> On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Dar Scott  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I’m an old-timer who has been away from the list for a while.
> 
> I’ve run into a problem and I think it is a LiveCode problem but it might be 
> an OS X problem or some combination.  
> 
> I’m using 6.7.5.  
> 
> Very often the hot spot is off, usually about 50-100 pixels high, for one or 
> more windows in the IDE.  I usually notice it in the editor where it is off 
> by 3 lines.  Almost always it is just vertical.  
> 
> It also happens in my stacks.  
> 
> This only applies to content, not the title bar or the menu along the top.
> 
> I wasn’t able to find anything among the bugs.
> 
> It might have been coincidence but one time it didn’t go away until I 
> rebooted.  I was on Mavericks but now am on Yosemite and still see it.  
> 
> Insight?  Anybody else seen this?  Or is this old news?

Hi Dar,

I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two 
monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it initially 
opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main screen” as 
determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script editor window to 
the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script editor window is 
higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this hot spot offset 
problem. Once I move the window downward on the second monitor it goes away. I 
ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to where I automatically just move 
the window down to avoid the problem. 

Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?

Devin



Devin Asay
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: Bug getting group name, plse check

[Peter Haworth]

Björnke's Docu2 dictionary tool.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:02 AM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> William Prothero wrote:
>
>  > Regarding tagging, searching, etc, I’ve experienced very primitive
>  > search boxes and they can be extremely primitive. (read useless
>  > almost). It is very difficult to build a great search system. Google
>  > has done that. It is possible to get Google to index web pages.
>  > Perhaps there should be thought given to taking advantage of Google
>  > search to get the context information that we need from the
>  > dictionary.
>
> The degree of difficulty in delivering good search results is in
> proportion to the conceptual range of queries and the size of the data
> being searched.
>
> If we want to provide accurate search results for everything from
> "arrayEncode" to "Britney Spears", and do so across billions of Web
> pages, best leave that to the pros.
>
> But to search for terms related to LiveCode keywords is a much smaller
> problem, both in conceptual scope and index size.
>
> Besdies, with LiveCode we need an embedded search engine, something
> small and nimble enough to be usable on any computer even when not
> connected to the Internet.
>
> The scripts for indexing and retrieving content isn't the hard part.
> The hard part is prioritizing it so it gets done.
>
> Truly great indexing can be a lifetime's work; indeed for many it is.
>
> But our needs are so modest, and our current search so limited, that
> even just a non-stemmed full-text index of the current Dictionary, with
> extra weight for token names, would satisfy a majority of requests quite
> well using data already in hand and reasonably simple scripts.
>
> If we then add crowd-source tags, the index would get ever smarter over
> time with minimal scripting effort.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   LiveCode Community Manager
>   rich...@livecode.org
>
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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Mark Talluto]

> On Aug 17, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Dar Scott  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, I’m an old-timer who has been away from the list for a while.
>> 
>> I’ve run into a problem and I think it is a LiveCode problem but it might be 
>> an OS X problem or some combination.  
>> 
>> I’m using 6.7.5.  
>> 
>> Very often the hot spot is off, usually about 50-100 pixels high, for one or 
>> more windows in the IDE.  I usually notice it in the editor where it is off 
>> by 3 lines.  Almost always it is just vertical.  
>> 
>> It also happens in my stacks.  
>> 
>> This only applies to content, not the title bar or the menu along the top.
>> 
>> I wasn’t able to find anything among the bugs.
>> 
>> It might have been coincidence but one time it didn’t go away until I 
>> rebooted.  I was on Mavericks but now am on Yosemite and still see it.  
>> 
>> Insight?  Anybody else seen this?  Or is this old news?
> 
> Hi Dar,
> 
> I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two 
> monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it 
> initially opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main screen” 
> as determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script editor window 
> to the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script editor window is 
> higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this hot spot offset 
> problem. Once I move the window downward on the second monitor it goes away. 
> I ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to where I automatically just 
> move the window down to avoid the problem. 
> 
> Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?

Could be related to bug:  http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15366 





Best regards,

Mark Talluto
canelasoftware.com 

CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode 
Developers: livecloud.io 



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[J. Landman Gay]

On 8/17/2015 10:29 AM, William Prothero wrote:

The idea that the livecode vision would be “frozen in time” and future
enhancements would be charged extra, certainly is contrary to what I
had expected.


If we're talking about the BAF, I think people are still missing the key 
info Brett provided. The BAF is not the same product as the current 
LiveCode. It is a new addition that doesn't work with existing stacks, 
targeted to a different user base.


It doesn't affect either Indy users or open source users, which remain 
in sync.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[William Prothero]

Jackie:
I’m not at all concerned about the BAF. Perhaps I’ve missed some critical info, 
but comments have been made about zip and pdf support perhaps not being in the 
indie versions. This would trouble me. They seem like the kind of widely used 
technology that would attract serious developers, who are not yet at the BAF 
level of need, to Livecode.

Regards,
Bill
> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:39 AM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> On 8/17/2015 10:29 AM, William Prothero wrote:
>> The idea that the livecode vision would be “frozen in time” and future
>> enhancements would be charged extra, certainly is contrary to what I
>> had expected.
> 
> If we're talking about the BAF, I think people are still missing the key info 
> Brett provided. The BAF is not the same product as the current LiveCode. It 
> is a new addition that doesn't work with existing stacks, targeted to a 
> different user base.
> 
> It doesn't affect either Indy users or open source users, which remain in 
> sync.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

William Prothero wrote:

> I’m not at all concerned about the BAF. Perhaps I’ve missed some
> critical info, but comments have been made about zip and pdf support
> perhaps not being in the indie versions. This would trouble me.

What troubles me is how hearsay like that gets started, and then how it 
grows.


Zip compression is available in all LiveCode editions, and as Kevin's 
said they're not going to be taking features out of editions they're 
currently available in.


PDF generation is also available in all LiveCode editions.

PDF on-screen rendering is not available in any LiveCode edition, and I 
don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals or either 
of the two emails this quarter about new proprietary-only features.


Did I miss something?

There are many great things about communities, but one drawback is that 
it takes a community to play the game of "Telephone" :)



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Terence Heaford]

> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals


Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in the 
KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from future Open 
Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?


All the best

Terry



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JSON, URL-encode, and UTF-8

[J. Landman Gay]

I've confused myself. I need to send JSON to a server. The values will 
have foreign characters in them. So I think I need to use textEncode to 
convert it to UTF8 and also it needs to be URL encoded. Is that right? 
And if so, what order do I do it in?


Do I URL-encode each value in the array, then create the JSON, then 
textEncode that? Or some other order? Or does textEncoding remove the 
need to URL encode?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[William Prothero]

Terry:
This was my concern.

Richard:
Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I spread mis-information. But I did read it, so 
the clarification is helpful, and appropriate (at least for me).
Regards,
Bill

> On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
>> 
>> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
> 
> 
> Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in the 
> KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from future Open 
> Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?
> 
> 
> All the best
> 
> Terry
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Thomas McGrath III]

I haven’t posted in a long long time and I have a question.

I just reread the entire Kickstarter Campaign promises and they state very 
clearly that IOS deployment is included in the open source edition "It will run 
on every popular platform and device.” and “...running on six platforms - 
Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android and Server” but on the new livecode pricing 
page it states that “Note: IOS deployment is not included in the open source 
edition”.

I am really confused by this and was wondering which is true. I have always 
paid for and had the biggest commercial version available and will probably buy 
into the Indie version once they are up, but I convinced a lot of people to 
contribute to the Campaign and am wondering if I owe them all apologies.

Tom McGrath



> On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:47 PM, William Prothero  wrote:
> 
> Terry:
> This was my concern.
> 
> Richard:
> Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I spread mis-information. But I did read it, 
> so the clarification is helpful, and appropriate (at least for me).
> Regards,
> Bill
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
>> 
>> 
>> Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in the 
>> KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from future Open 
>> Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?
>> 
>> 
>> All the best
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> 
>> 
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RE: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Ralph DiMola]

Tom,

It's an Apple's restriction. Although you can generate and test Open Source iOS 
apps you can't submit them to the iStore. Apple does not approve open source 
apps. I'm not sure if the iOS option is disabled on the community version, but 
I don’t think so.
 
Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Thomas McGrath III
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 3:18 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

I haven’t posted in a long long time and I have a question.

I just reread the entire Kickstarter Campaign promises and they state very 
clearly that IOS deployment is included in the open source edition "It will run 
on every popular platform and device.” and “...running on six platforms - 
Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android and Server” but on the new livecode pricing 
page it states that “Note: IOS deployment is not included in the open source 
edition”.

I am really confused by this and was wondering which is true. I have always 
paid for and had the biggest commercial version available and will probably buy 
into the Indie version once they are up, but I convinced a lot of people to 
contribute to the Campaign and am wondering if I owe them all apologies.

Tom McGrath



> On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:47 PM, William Prothero  wrote:
> 
> Terry:
> This was my concern.
> 
> Richard:
> Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I spread mis-information. But I did read it, 
> so the clarification is helpful, and appropriate (at least for me).
> Regards,
> Bill
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
>> 
>> 
>> Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in the 
>> KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from future Open 
>> Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?
>> 
>> 
>> All the best
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Kevin Miller]

As we've said, we aren't removing anything. You've always been able to build 
for iOS in Community. The fact you can't deploy to the store is down to Apple's 
licensing incompatibility with the GPL, nothing to do with us and no change 
there on our part. 

> On 17 Aug 2015, at 20:18, Thomas McGrath III  wrote:
> 
> I haven’t posted in a long long time and I have a question.
> 
> I just reread the entire Kickstarter Campaign promises and they state very 
> clearly that IOS deployment is included in the open source edition "It will 
> run on every popular platform and device.” and “...running on six platforms - 
> Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android and Server” but on the new livecode pricing 
> page it states that “Note: IOS deployment is not included in the open source 
> edition”.
> 
> I am really confused by this and was wondering which is true. I have always 
> paid for and had the biggest commercial version available and will probably 
> buy into the Indie version once they are up, but I convinced a lot of people 
> to contribute to the Campaign and am wondering if I owe them all apologies.
> 
> Tom McGrath
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:47 PM, William Prothero  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Terry:
>> This was my concern.
>> 
>> Richard:
>> Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I spread mis-information. But I did read it, 
>> so the clarification is helpful, and appropriate (at least for me).
>> Regards,
>> Bill
>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  
 wrote:
 
 and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in 
>>> the KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from future 
>>> Open Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> All the best
>>> 
>>> Terry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Dar Scott]

Yay!  That’s it.  Second monitor with top above the main monitor with LiveCode 
window top above the same thing.  

This might be a bad fix for another bug, the one that blocks a stack from going 
higher than the tool bar.  

I know how it is about having work to get done and repeating little workarounds 
rather than reporting a bug.  

If you don’t report it, I’ll report it or add it to the other bug.  

Dar


> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Dar Scott  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, I’m an old-timer who has been away from the list for a while.
>> 
>> I’ve run into a problem and I think it is a LiveCode problem but it might be 
>> an OS X problem or some combination.  
>> 
>> I’m using 6.7.5.  
>> 
>> Very often the hot spot is off, usually about 50-100 pixels high, for one or 
>> more windows in the IDE.  I usually notice it in the editor where it is off 
>> by 3 lines.  Almost always it is just vertical.  
>> 
>> It also happens in my stacks.  
>> 
>> This only applies to content, not the title bar or the menu along the top.
>> 
>> I wasn’t able to find anything among the bugs.
>> 
>> It might have been coincidence but one time it didn’t go away until I 
>> rebooted.  I was on Mavericks but now am on Yosemite and still see it.  
>> 
>> Insight?  Anybody else seen this?  Or is this old news?
> 
> Hi Dar,
> 
> I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two 
> monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it 
> initially opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main screen” 
> as determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script editor window 
> to the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script editor window is 
> higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this hot spot offset 
> problem. Once I move the window downward on the second monitor it goes away. 
> I ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to where I automatically just 
> move the window down to avoid the problem. 
> 
> Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?
> 
> Devin
> 
> 
> 
> Devin Asay
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Thomas McGrath III]

Ralph, Thanks for clarifying that.

Kevin, That’s why I asked first before assuming. Thanks for clarifying as well. 
(Might want to include something to that affect on the pricing page.)

Back to my woodwork.

Tom



> On Aug 17, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Kevin Miller  wrote:
> 
> As we've said, we aren't removing anything. You've always been able to build 
> for iOS in Community. The fact you can't deploy to the store is down to 
> Apple's licensing incompatibility with the GPL, nothing to do with us and no 
> change there on our part. 
> 
>> On 17 Aug 2015, at 20:18, Thomas McGrath III  wrote:
>> 
>> I haven’t posted in a long long time and I have a question.
>> 
>> I just reread the entire Kickstarter Campaign promises and they state very 
>> clearly that IOS deployment is included in the open source edition "It will 
>> run on every popular platform and device.” and “...running on six platforms 
>> - Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android and Server” but on the new livecode 
>> pricing page it states that “Note: IOS deployment is not included in the 
>> open source edition”.
>> 
>> I am really confused by this and was wondering which is true. I have always 
>> paid for and had the biggest commercial version available and will probably 
>> buy into the Indie version once they are up, but I convinced a lot of people 
>> to contribute to the Campaign and am wondering if I owe them all apologies.
>> 
>> Tom McGrath
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:47 PM, William Prothero  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Terry:
>>> This was my concern.
>>> 
>>> Richard:
>>> Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I spread mis-information. But I did read 
>>> it, so the clarification is helpful, and appropriate (at least for me).
>>> Regards,
>>> Bill
>>> 
 On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
 
 
> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
 
 
 Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not in 
 the KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted from 
 future Open Source releases and included in future Commercial releases?
 
 
 All the best
 
 Terry
 
 
 
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>>> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Roger Eller]

So, with an Apple personal developer license (the new free one), you can
use the LC Community version to deploy and test on a personal iOS device?
I think the answer is yes, right?

~Roger


On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Kevin Miller  wrote:

> As we've said, we aren't removing anything. You've always been able to
> build for iOS in Community. The fact you can't deploy to the store is down
> to Apple's licensing incompatibility with the GPL, nothing to do with us
> and no change there on our part.
>
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Terence Heaford wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2015, at 19:13, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> and I don't recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals
>
> Are we to conclude form all these type of comments that if it was not
> in the KickStarter Stretch goals then it’s fair game to be omitted
> from future Open Source releases and included in future Commercial
> releases?

I think it would be wisest to avoid assumptions altogether.

There are already features in both the open source and proprietary 
editions that weren't among the Kickstarter goals, so the assumption you 
suggest would be incorrect out of the starting gate.


And on the other hand, there are now add-ons in the proprietary edition 
which are not in the open source edition, so assuming the other 
direction would be equally incorrect.


Rather than attempt to decide all the future possibilities in broad 
strokes, it seems best to evaluate each moment as it unfolds.


There are reasons to believe the company is in earnest about its open 
source endeavors, and reasons to believe that certain add-ons may be 
beneficial for both editions if the company is able to derive value from 
them through proprietary per-user licensing.


Personally I have my doubts about the realizable value of such things 
being sufficiently compelling over the long haul in the particular way 
they're currently pursued, so I don't expect this to be a major trend.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Dar Scott]

Mark wrote,
> Could be related to bug:  http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15366 
> 


I wonder if it is related to bug that existed at one time where one couldn’t 
drag a LiveCode window on a second monitor above the top of the main monitor.  
I have a vague memory that Hans had problems with that, too, so he might be 
able to put his finger on it.  Ah, bug 8934 (#1).  

Runners up and maybe related:  bug 4174, bug 12270.  bug 9304, bug 15373, bug 
7010

I am so happy there is a workaround.  Just move the window down a bit.  Ha!

Dar


> On Aug 17, 2015, at 11:04 AM, Mark Talluto  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Dar Scott  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, I’m an old-timer who has been away from the list for a while.
>>> 
>>> I’ve run into a problem and I think it is a LiveCode problem but it might 
>>> be an OS X problem or some combination.  
>>> 
>>> I’m using 6.7.5.  
>>> 
>>> Very often the hot spot is off, usually about 50-100 pixels high, for one 
>>> or more windows in the IDE.  I usually notice it in the editor where it is 
>>> off by 3 lines.  Almost always it is just vertical.  
>>> 
>>> It also happens in my stacks.  
>>> 
>>> This only applies to content, not the title bar or the menu along the top.
>>> 
>>> I wasn’t able to find anything among the bugs.
>>> 
>>> It might have been coincidence but one time it didn’t go away until I 
>>> rebooted.  I was on Mavericks but now am on Yosemite and still see it.  
>>> 
>>> Insight?  Anybody else seen this?  Or is this old news?
>> 
>> Hi Dar,
>> 
>> I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two 
>> monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it 
>> initially opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main 
>> screen” as determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script 
>> editor window to the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script 
>> editor window is higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this hot 
>> spot offset problem. Once I move the window downward on the second monitor 
>> it goes away. I ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to where I 
>> automatically just move the window down to avoid the problem. 
>> 
>> Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?
> 
> Could be related to bug:  http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15366 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Mark Talluto
> canelasoftware.com 
> 
> CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode 
> Developers: livecloud.io 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: JSON, URL-encode, and UTF-8

[Monte Goulding]

I think we would need to see the API to know about the urlEncoding. Is it a 
parameter in your query string? If you need to urlEncode it will be the last 
thing you do. If you are using one of the script libraries the UTF8 encoding 
may be done for you. If you are using mergJSON then UTF8 encode anything that's 
not ASCII before you JSON encode.

Cheers

Monte

Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 4:41 am, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> I've confused myself. I need to send JSON to a server. The values will have 
> foreign characters in them. So I think I need to use textEncode to convert it 
> to UTF8 and also it needs to be URL encoded. Is that right? And if so, what 
> order do I do it in?
> 
> Do I URL-encode each value in the array, then create the JSON, then 
> textEncode that? Or some other order? Or does textEncoding remove the need to 
> URL encode?

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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Mark Talluto]

> On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Dar Scott mailto:d...@swcp.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Mark wrote,
>> Could be related to bug:  http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15366 
>>  
>> > >
> 
> 
> I wonder if it is related to bug that existed at one time where one couldn’t 
> drag a LiveCode window on a second monitor above the top of the main monitor. 
>  I have a vague memory that Hans had problems with that, too, so he might be 
> able to put his finger on it.  Ah, bug 8934 (#1).  
> 
> Runners up and maybe related:  bug 4174, bug 12270.  bug 9304, bug 15373, bug 
> 7010
> 
> I am so happy there is a workaround.  Just move the window down a bit.  Ha!
> 
> Dar

It is a bit of a pain. The LiveCode team has confirmed the bug. Just waiting 
for the fix now.


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
canelasoftware.com 

CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode 
Developers: livecloud.io 



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 4:13 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> PDF on-screen rendering is not available in any LiveCode edition, and I don't 
> recall seeing it on either the Kickstarter stretch goals or either of the two 
> emails this quarter about new proprietary-only features.

So a PDF widget isn’t a Business only license? I’m hoping they release one to 
community because I have a client that will probably pay me to add any extra 
features they need that don’t come standard like text selection and extraction. 
Not really a huge issue as we could just write the widget from scratch but then 
we would need to decide what to do with it etc...
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

> So a PDF widget isn’t a Business only license?

There's a PDF widget?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 1:29 am, William Prothero  wrote:
> 
> I contributed to kickstarter because I saw the vision of a reasonably priced 
> authoring system that kept up with the always evolving technology.  Some 
> technologies are important to a few high level developers, while others 
> become widely adopted, like pdf and zip. The idea that the livecode vision 
> would be “frozen in time” and future enhancements would be charged extra, 
> certainly is contrary to what I had expected.

I don’t think anyone believes that LC community will be frozen in time. Indeed 
anyone interested in LC community should be encouraging Kevin to run as hard as 
possible and use whatever means necessary to capture the business market. These 
are the guys that will pay for a coder on staff to sit around adding any 
features they need to the engine and sorting out any blocker bugs. All of that 
gets contributed back to the engine. Not to mention that they will have a team 
of coders that will need high end licenses.
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 6:47 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> There's a PDF widget?

I believe there’s one in development based on PDFium

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Re: JSON, URL-encode, and UTF-8

[J. Landman Gay]

Thanks Monte. The JSON is created by EasyJSON from a LC array. Most of 
the values in the array are in foreign languages with lots of non-ascii 
characters, and those will become the values in the parameter string 
that I will send in a POST. It doesn't look like EasyJSON does any UTF8 
encoding when creating the JSON.


So I guess I need to UTF8 encode the array before sending it to the JSON 
parser, then URL-encode the JSON. Is it possible to textEncode a whole 
array at once without looping through all the elements?



On 8/17/2015 3:28 PM, Monte Goulding wrote:

I think we would need to see the API to know about the urlEncoding.
Is it a parameter in your query string? If you need to urlEncode it
will be the last thing you do. If you are using one of the script
libraries the UTF8 encoding may be done for you. If you are using
mergJSON then UTF8 encode anything that's not ASCII before you JSON
encode.

Cheers

Monte

Sent from my iPhone


On 18 Aug 2015, at 4:41 am, J. Landman Gay
 wrote:

I've confused myself. I need to send JSON to a server. The values
will have foreign characters in them. So I think I need to use
textEncode to convert it to UTF8 and also it needs to be URL
encoded. Is that right? And if so, what order do I do it in?

Do I URL-encode each value in the array, then create the JSON, then
textEncode that? Or some other order? Or does textEncoding remove
the need to URL encode?


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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: JSON, URL-encode, and UTF-8

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 6:54 am, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Monte. The JSON is created by EasyJSON from a LC array. Most of the 
> values in the array are in foreign languages with lots of non-ascii 
> characters, and those will become the values in the parameter string that I 
> will send in a POST. It doesn't look like EasyJSON does any UTF8 encoding 
> when creating the JSON.

I haven’t used EasyJSON because it was done after mergJSON so I can’t confirm 
about the utf8. If you are posting JSON then you don’t need to urlEncode. Just 
set the content type header to application/json
> 
> So I guess I need to UTF8 encode the array before sending it to the JSON 
> parser, then URL-encode the JSON. Is it possible to textEncode a whole array 
> at once without looping through all the elements?

No, just UTF8 encode any elements (or keys) that’s not likely to be ASCII.
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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:17 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:

> I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two
> monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it
> initially opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main
> screen” as determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script
> editor window to the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script
> editor window is higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this
> hot spot offset problem. Once I move the window downward on the second
> monitor it goes away. I ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to where
> I automatically just move the window down to avoid the problem.
>
> Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?
>

I had never nailed down this combination, but it's certainly consistent
with what I see.

When I'm using two monitors (most of the time), the code screen is almost
always on the external.  I have code in openStack that opens the scripts of
my main code sections.  However, if the main stack script won't compile, I
have to manually move it--and there frequency of this is similar to the
displacement bug.  Next time it bites, I'll try moving the window back to
the main screen.

As I have to restart livened three to four times in a typical hour (the
shadow declaration bug), the displacement bug bites a couple of times in a
typical full day of coding.



-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Peter TB Brett]

On 2015-08-17 20:13, Richard Gaskin wrote:

William Prothero wrote:


I’m not at all concerned about the BAF. Perhaps I’ve missed some
critical info, but comments have been made about zip and pdf support
perhaps not being in the indie versions. This would trouble me.


What troubles me is how hearsay like that gets started, and then how it 
grows.


Zip compression is available in all LiveCode editions, and as Kevin's
said they're not going to be taking features out of editions they're
currently available in.


Yes.

I don't know where this "zip compression is going to become 
Commercial-only" notion came from, but it's completely fictional.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Engine Development Team


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 6:47 am, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> There's a PDF widget?
>
> I believe there’s one in development based on PDFium

On the one hand I don't recall any specific promises made about PDF 
rendering in terms of licensing, but on the other hand that PDF widget 
was the example used in Kevin's video from July 2014 to demonstrate the 
v8 architecture we all funded in the Kickstarter campaign, so I doubt he 
intends that one to be proprietary-only:



Has anyone heard otherwise?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 7:21 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> On the one hand I don't recall any specific promises made about PDF rendering 
> in terms of licensing, but on the other hand that PDF widget was the example 
> used in Kevin's video from July 2014 to demonstrate the v8 architecture we 
> all funded in the Kickstarter campaign, so I doubt he intends that one to be 
> proprietary-only:
>  >
> 
> Has anyone heard otherwise?

IIRC that was hooking into OS X apis not a cross platform library like PDFium. 
Did the original email mention a PDF widget? I didn’t get it.

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Lyn Teyla]

Richard Gaskin wrote:

> On the one hand I don't recall any specific promises made about PDF rendering 
> in terms of licensing, but on the other hand that PDF widget was the example 
> used in Kevin's video from July 2014 to demonstrate the v8 architecture we 
> all funded in the Kickstarter campaign, so I doubt he intends that one to be 
> proprietary-only:
> 
> 
> Has anyone heard otherwise?

It's listed (under 'Add Ons you can get with credits') as Business-only on the 
pricing page:

https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/pricing/

Lyn



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 7:27 am, Lyn Teyla  wrote:
> 
> It's listed (under 'Add Ons you can get with credits') as Business-only on 
> the pricing page:
> 
> https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/pricing/ 
> 
Ah… I see. It’s a closed source widget available in the store that they can buy 
for 1 credit but I presume everyone else can buy for $99.

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Re: mouse pointer hot spot is way off

[Peter Haworth]

There's pretty persuasive evidence now that the shadowed variable bug is
caused by stopping a debug run early.  Since I trained myself to let debug
run to the end of its natural course, I have not seen the problem.
Hopefully that will help the team figure out the cause and fix it.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 2:12 PM Dr. Hawkins  wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:17 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:
>
> > I have seen this and can reproduce it reliably. On a Mac, if you have two
> > monitors (or more I suppose), and you open a script editor window, it
> > initially opens on the same screen as your LiveCode IDE; on the "main
> > screen” as determined by the OS. After that I typically move the script
> > editor window to the second monitor. I find that if the top of the script
> > editor window is higher than the tool bar on the main screen, I get this
> > hot spot offset problem. Once I move the window downward on the second
> > monitor it goes away. I ought to have reported it, but I’ve gotten to
> where
> > I automatically just move the window down to avoid the problem.
> >
> > Does this seem to be the same thing you’re getting?
> >
>
> I had never nailed down this combination, but it's certainly consistent
> with what I see.
>
> When I'm using two monitors (most of the time), the code screen is almost
> always on the external.  I have code in openStack that opens the scripts of
> my main code sections.  However, if the main stack script won't compile, I
> have to manually move it--and there frequency of this is similar to the
> displacement bug.  Next time it bites, I'll try moving the window back to
> the main screen.
>
> As I have to restart livened three to four times in a typical hour (the
> shadow declaration bug), the displacement bug bites a couple of times in a
> typical full day of coding.
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[RunRevPlanet]

 > Irrespective of things taking longer
 > that forecast (or desired)

I understand that things take longer than expected, but when I read the
Kickstarter Campaign it is clear that the new IDE is a core part of the next
generation. It is not a stretch goal, and is repeatedly emphasised as a core
part of the project.

 > Why?

Why do I care about a new IDE, because I know programmers who won't use LiveCode
because of it. Sure, that is their loss and they miss out on the wonderful tool
that is the xTalk language and LiveCode.

But the fact remains that the way a new IDE was a core feature of Kickstarter
Campaign acknowledges that:

 1. The current IDE is less than beautiful.
 2. The current IDE is not designed around today’s usability standards.

For those who like the current LiveCode IDE, that is fine, but you cannot read
the Kickstarter Campaign and tell me that the two points above are not
reasonable.

I will argue most strongly that to be taken seriously and gain traction in the
Open Source world you need a standards compliant IDE.

Even if all the current LiveCode users are happy, first impressions do count for
new users and so the new IDE should be a priority. Before Stretch Goals. Before
anything else announced after the end of the 2013 campaign.

 > if I recall correctly, one of the
 > prerequisites of the "new IDE" was
 > the ability to display a stack in
 > a area in another stack and this
 > engine feature will only be
 > available in the LC 8 series.

That may be so, but the Developer Preview of the LC 8 series is here, and there
is little sign of a modern IDE.

I will be very surprised if a new IDE is released within in the same version
number series. I predict it will be LiveCode 9.0 before an IDE that fulfils the
words below, which are LiveCode Ltd's, not mine:

 "new, beautiful graphical front-end"
 "new visual editor designed around today’s usability standards"

--
Scott McDonald
"Components, Controls, Tools and Resources for LiveCode"
www.runrevplanet.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 7:21 am, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> On the one hand I don't recall any specific promises made about
>> PDF rendering in terms of licensing, but on the other hand that
>> PDF widget was the example used in Kevin's video from July 2014
>> to demonstrate the v8 architecture we all funded in the Kickstarter
>> campaign, so I doubt he intends that one to be proprietary-only:
>> >

>>
>> Has anyone heard otherwise?
>
> IIRC that was hooking into OS X apis not a cross platform library
> like PDFium. Did the original email mention a PDF widget? I didn’t
> get it.

It would seem what they showed then was less advanced than what anyone 
here would need.  And since you know of a good library that's 
cross-platform with compatible licensing you're ahead of them.



This plays interestingly into what Lyn Teyla just noted:

> It's listed (under 'Add Ons you can get with credits') as
> Business-only on the pricing page:


Well, isn't that a confusing page. :)

The PDF component doesn't yet exist, so whether it uses OS API calls or 
a library such as the one Monte found is unknown


Moreover, it isn't included with the Business package, but available for 
"1 credit" as one of a menu of option for which the Business license 
gets 20 "credits".


This implies that anyone using a proprietary license should be able to 
obtain this, and the other add-ons there, as a separate purchase.  But 
since no pricing is available for any of them in any currency other than 
"credits", the degree to which LiveCode Ltd. is interested in realizing 
the full revenue potential of these widgets is unknowable from the 
sparse info provided there.


Since most of the folks here have some form of proprietary license, the 
bigger question is: what do devs do when they want to develop open 
source works?


Do we make our own PDF widget?

Do we release it under dual-license?

Do we make the proprietary license available at a fee to offset costs?

And these raise still more questions:

What if the cost of a proprietary license for a community-driven widget 
is lower than the cost of the one available from LiveCode Ltd?  Might 
that take some of the the wind out efforts to promote the Business package?


What if the community-driven version is not only cheaper, but also 
outcompetes a LiveCode Ltd.-provided version with a richer feature set 
as well?  The air become as still as the Tradewinds during El Nino.


Rather than spend too much time indulging in conjecture about ways the 
company and their community may become competitors, it seems more 
productive -- and much simpler -- to focus on ways we can act as partners:


Given that:

- A PDF widget involves a functionality useful to open source projects
  using that open standard format, so community members would be
  unusually motivated to write one if needed

- Regardless who makes it, either version would likely carry a fee for
  use in proprietary apps

- This is just a 1-credit widget (all the others cost 10 "credits")

- It doesn't yet exist

...it would seem in everyone's interest for the company to consider 
releasing a GPL-governed version of the PDF widget.


And it would benefit the company to describe pricing outside of 
"credits" for users with proprietary licenses other than Business so the 
vast majority of current license holders can use those components as 
well (read, "Please make it easy for me to give you money").


There's been so little info about this PDF thang that for all I know 
what I've described here may have been Kevin's plan all along. 
Hopefully he'll chime in to clarify.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

On Aug 17, 2015, at 3:19 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> 
> This implies that anyone using a proprietary license should be able to obtain 
> this, and the other add-ons there, as a separate purchase.  But since no 
> pricing is available for any of them in any currency other than "credits", 
> the degree to which LiveCode Ltd. is interested in realizing the full revenue 
> potential of these widgets is unknowable from the sparse info provided there.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web


Full revenue potential may be directly related to
purchasing a business license to produce the
desired results you want.

The price difference in comparison to a indy
license and business license may exceed
the sales of it to those without a business
license.  And that is forever once you are
hooked.

John Balgenorth
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 8:19 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> 
> It would seem what they showed then was less advanced than what anyone here 
> would need.  And since you know of a good library that's cross-platform with 
> compatible licensing you're ahead of them.

Actually no. They are fully aware of PDFium and I believe they have at least 
played with a widget for it although I’m not sure how as the packaged library 
support isn’t yet implemented for widgets as far as I know.
> 
> This implies that anyone using a proprietary license should be able to obtain 
> this, and the other add-ons there, as a separate purchase.  But since no 
> pricing is available for any of them in any currency other than "credits", 
> the degree to which LiveCode Ltd. is interested in realizing the full revenue 
> potential of these widgets is unknowable from the sparse info provided there.

The page states that a credit has a value of $99.
> 
> Since most of the folks here have some form of proprietary license, the 
> bigger question is: what do devs do when they want to develop open source 
> works?

Actually we are jumping the gun here. It’s quite possible that they could 
release all the add ons you can buy with your credits as dual license but just 
not include them (extra credits) in the Indy license. Seems like a wise move to 
me as it means they won’t get someone like me coming along that needs extra 
features for my client building a whole new widget that undercuts their market 
share. Instead it would be more logical for me to add features to their widget. 
Either way I’m hoping that these credits can be applied to any item in the 
extensions store so it would be possible to target them by building business 
centric widgets...
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Distribute beta versions of iOS app

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

Assuming the UDID's of the devices are in your provisioning profile is
there an easy way the distribute the app to remote beta testers
outside of apple's ecosystem? Some download URL from our web server?

BR

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 9:33 am, Monte Goulding  
> wrote:
> 
> t’s quite possible that they could release all the add ons you can buy with 
> your credits as dual license but just not include them (extra credits) in the 
> Indy license

Hmm… looking at the page a bit more I see mobile camera support is not 
available for community so that indicates to me that the extra features won’t 
be dual licensed. Also I see that you can’t buy extra credits for Indy and if 
the only way to buy these features is via credits then they become Business 
only features. Anyway, I’m sure it will all work out.
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RE: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Ralph DiMola]

I had a one-on-one with Mark at RR14. We talked about PDF support. We discussed 
a widget using PDFium. Mark and the team are well aware of the need of PDF 
support. I'm sure it's on the hot list.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

RunRevPlanet wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> RunRevPlanet wrote:
>>> I understand that things take longer than expected, but when I read
>>> the Kickstarter Campaign it is clear that the new IDE is a core
>>> part of the next generation. It is not a stretch goal, and is
>>> repeatedly emphasised as a core part of the project.
>>
>> Why?
>
> Why do I care about a new IDE, because I know programmers who won't
> use LiveCode because of it. Sure, that is their loss and they miss
> out on the wonderful tool that is the xTalk language and LiveCode.
>
> But the fact remains that the way a new IDE was a core feature of
> Kickstarter Campaign acknowledges that:
>
>  1. The current IDE is less than beautiful.
>  2. The current IDE is not designed around today’s usability
> standards.

Being new will only guarantee that it's new, not necessarily that it 
will improve the workflow.


What usability standards do you feel are not well reflected in the 
current IDE, and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow what are the first 
three things you'd do to fix that?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

Everyone said PDF support will be available
for 1 credit.  So you got your wish.

Now they want to know if the indy license will
include it.

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 5:02 PM, Ralph DiMola  wrote:

> I had a one-on-one with Mark at RR14. We talked about PDF support. We 
> discussed a widget using PDFium. Mark and the team are well aware of the need 
> of PDF support. I'm sure it's on the hot list.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:
> The page states that a credit has a value of $99.

Where?  Maybe my coffee's worn off, but I can't find a dollar value for 
points on that page.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:04 am, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> Where?  Maybe my coffee's worn off, but I can't find a dollar value for 
> points on that page.

Add Ons you can get with credits.
20 credits are included with every business license. Spend your credits on 
these list of exclusive add ons. (additional credits are available. 
Each credit has a value of $99)
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

I think your question about the indy license
including the listed PDF support  has been
answered in that statement.

The key word is exclusive.

It looks like open-source needs to step up
on their own.

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:14 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

> 
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:04 am, Richard Gaskin  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Where?  Maybe my coffee's worn off, but I can't find a dollar value for 
>> points on that page.
> 
> Add Ons you can get with credits.
> 20 credits are included with every business license. Spend your credits on 
> these list of exclusive add ons. (additional credits are available. 
> Each credit has a value of $99)
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:04 am, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Where?  Maybe my coffee's worn off, but I can't find a dollar
>> value for points on that page.
>
> Add Ons you can get with credits.
> 20 credits are included with every business license. Spend your
> credits on these list of exclusive add ons. (additional credits
> are available. Each credit has a value of $99)

Oh, you mean the bold text right in the middle of the page?  :)

Thanks.  Not sure how I missed it.  Must be siesta...

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

How hard can it be to add pdf support to
open-source?

I assume the code is in C++ or Obhective-C.

I am not a C programmer but I have learned
a little about it and might be willing to help.

First of all you would need to understand I am
not completely up to par on C so I would need
some help and simple guidelines at first.

Second since they are exclusive I want to make
sure pur work is exclusive too.  That is only fair.
Working for free and helping out is one thing but
providing code for them to use exclusively does
not interest me.

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:23 PM, JB  wrote:

> I think your question about the indy license
> including the listed PDF support  has been
> answered in that statement.
> 
> The key word is exclusive.
> 
> It looks like open-source needs to step up
> on their own.
> 
> John Balgenorth
> 
> 
> On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:14 PM, Monte Goulding  
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:04 am, Richard Gaskin  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Where?  Maybe my coffee's worn off, but I can't find a dollar value for 
>>> points on that page.
>> 
>> Add Ons you can get with credits.
>> 20 credits are included with every business license. Spend your credits on 
>> these list of exclusive add ons. (additional credits are available. 
>> Each credit has a value of $99)
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[RunRevPlanet]

I am using LiveCode 8.0 DP2 as my baseline, as I understand it to be the future
and not the 7.0 series. And my comments are from a Windows perspective.

Richard said:

 > What usability standards do you feel are
 > not well reflected in the current IDE,
 > and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow
 > what are the first three things you'd do to
 > fix that?

Here are three items.

1. Fix up the mess of the find and replace. For example:

a. There is no keyboard shortcut for find previous.

b. Ctrl+Shift+F is not a standard shortcut for Find and Replace.

c. Cannot do a find and replace within selected text.

d. While in the editor to find and replace across, say a card or stack, you need
to click on the IDE toolbar and then choose a different Find and Replace
command.

2. Improve debugging usability:

a. Cannot view Variable Watches and Breakpoints simultaneously.

b. The Call stack is a dropdown list and so requires clicking with the mouse to
view it each time.

3. Fix up the new property inspector:

a. It should be possible to select the different panes with the mouse.

b. Within a pane if the tab key is used to move to the next item, it is
impossible to determine what property is current when in a series of check
boxes.

c. Within a pane when the tab key is used to move to the next item, when a text
field is reached the existing text should be selected and the cursor be placed
at the end.

That is my top three. While I am in control here are some other
problems/suggestions:

4. New widgets do not show a contextual menu when right clicked.

5. There is no editor bookmark feature.

6. Customise the selection of actions/buttons on the main toolbar.

7. There is no keyboard shortcut to switch to the IDE toolbar/menu from the
script editor.

8. Using the same keyboard shortcuts depending what window has the focus is
confusing.

9. The smart indent cannot be turned off and there is no option for using the
tab character with the smart indent is on.

10. Make all the dialogues and windows follow a consistent style and spacing of
elements.

None of these are terribly advanced or unreasonable for a developer to expect.
These are basic features programmers expect from an IDE today.

On a more subjective level, the LiveCode IDE has a look that can put an
experienced programmers off.

That is part of the problem with the IDE that I think goes to the heart of
challenges with LiveCode going open source.

For open source projects to be successful it is important to attract experienced
programmers who can contribute. But with LiveCode, experienced programmers who
try it, dismiss it because of the general idiosyncratic feel it has.

>From the uncustomisable toolbar with chunky icons, to the script editor that is
flaky and sluggish. LiveCode doesn't "feel right".

You and I know that the power and advantages of LiveCode lies beneath the
"clunky" surface of the IDE and I understand LiveCode's mission is too allow
*everyone* to code, but to repeat a point: attracting the right talent to help
with an open source programming tool, requires appealing to the advanced
programmers too.

I love LiveCode, but as it currently stands, I *never* look forward to working
in the LiveCode IDE.

Thanks for listening.
--
Scott McDonald
"Components, Controls, Tools and Resources for LiveCode"
www.runrevplanet.com

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RE: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Ralph DiMola]

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of JB
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 9:41 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?

I read the PDF spec and got a headache on the 3 page. I know that PDFium is
doing the heavy lifting but the PDF spec is nasty. Add bookmarks, PDF fields
and java into the mix and can get ugly fast.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

JB wrote:


How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?


Technically, it's a matter of copying the GPLv3 license file into that 
repository, and adding an appropriate note to the main source file.


It seems the considerations here aren't technical.



I assume the code is in C++ or Obhective-C.


LiveCode Builder, IIRC.



I am not a C programmer but I have learned
a little about it and might be willing to help.

First of all you would need to understand I am
not completely up to par on C so I would need
some help and simple guidelines at first.

Second since they are exclusive I want to make
sure pur work is exclusive too.  That is only fair.
Working for free and helping out is one thing but
providing code for them to use exclusively does
not interest me.


If you really wanted to send a message, rather than write C for the 
LiveCode community you could write it in Python for the Python community.


That is, if it weren't for the hundreds of PDF packages that already 
exist for that very popular language:



Indeed it's the relationship between capabilities and audience size that 
leads me to believe LiveCode will choose a simpler, more partnering 
approach with their open source supporters on this PDF component.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

I have not studied Java at all.
Does Apple have any example
code that could be modified?

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:50 PM, Ralph DiMola  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of JB
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 9:41 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Subject: Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card
> 
> How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?
> 
> I read the PDF spec and got a headache on the 3 page. I know that PDFium is
> doing the heavy lifting but the PDF spec is nasty. Add bookmarks, PDF fields
> and java into the mix and can get ugly fast.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

I have never used LiveCode Builder, IIRC.
so I don’t know what it takes to help.

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> JB wrote:
> 
>> How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?
> 
> Technically, it's a matter of copying the GPLv3 license file into that 
> repository, and adding an appropriate note to the main source file.
> 
> It seems the considerations here aren't technical.
> 
> 
>> I assume the code is in C++ or Obhective-C.
> 
> LiveCode Builder, IIRC.
> 
> 
>> I am not a C programmer but I have learned
>> a little about it and might be willing to help.
>> 
>> First of all you would need to understand I am
>> not completely up to par on C so I would need
>> some help and simple guidelines at first.
>> 
>> Second since they are exclusive I want to make
>> sure pur work is exclusive too.  That is only fair.
>> Working for free and helping out is one thing but
>> providing code for them to use exclusively does
>> not interest me.
> 
> If you really wanted to send a message, rather than write C for the LiveCode 
> community you could write it in Python for the Python community.
> 
> That is, if it weren't for the hundreds of PDF packages that already exist 
> for that very popular language:
> 
> 
> Indeed it's the relationship between capabilities and audience size that 
> leads me to believe LiveCode will choose a simpler, more partnering approach 
> with their open source supporters on this PDF component.
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

I have updated my KickStarter report card thanks to the information about the 
new player for Windows being planned for LiveCode 8.0 that Tom Bodine kindly 
provided.

As I understand, the phrase “new visual editor” refers to the new IDE.

LIVECODE KICKSTARTER REPORT CARD

The first thing to note is that all the Kickstarter rewards have been delivered.

There seems to have been three major deliverables promised in the main campaign:

Deliverable Status
Re-engineer the whole platform  Completed
A new technology: “Open Language”   Early alpha of the 
pre-requisite LiveCode Builder released (LiveCode 8.0)
Open Language 
will be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
A new visual editor Early alpha released 
(LiveCode 8.0)

There were a number of deliverables promised through stretch goals which were 
met:

Deliverable Status
Resolution Independence Completed
Pluggable ThemesPluggable Themes will 
be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Cocoa   Completed
Physics Engine  Physics Engine will be 
in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Windows/Phone 8 Theme   Windows/Phone 8 Theme will be 
in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Vector Shape Object Vector Shape Object 
will be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Reworked Multimedia Support 
New Player  Completed on OS X. 
Windows in release LiveCode 8.0. Linux ???
Multi Channel Sound OS X : Linux : Windows 
???
Sound Recording ???
New Browser Control OS X, Windows 
completed. Linux with LiveCode 8.0

I’d appreciate if somebody could let me know the status of the items about 
which I’m unclear and any mistakes I have made.

Regards

Peter





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Re: Distribute beta versions of iOS app

[J. Landman Gay]

On 8/17/2015 6:41 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

Assuming the UDID's of the devices are in your provisioning profile is
there an easy way the distribute the app to remote beta testers
outside of apple's ecosystem? Some download URL from our web server?


There's AirLaunch, for one:


It uses a method that you could reproduce manually, but having a utility 
is easier. Note that if you want to distribute from your own server, 
Apple requires it to have an SSL certificate.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

I forgot to add the most important promise … LiveCode being open-sourced … as 
kindly pointed out by Jacque Landman Gay.

LIVECODE KICKSTARTER REPORT CARD

The first thing to note is that all the Kickstarter rewards have been delivered.

The second thing to note is that LiveCode has open-sourced LiveCode. It is 
available on Github.

There seems to have been three other major deliverables promised in the main 
campaign:

Deliverable Status
Re-engineer the whole platform  Completed
A new technology: “Open Language”   Early alpha of the 
pre-requisite LiveCode Builder released (LiveCode 8.0)
Open Language 
will be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
A new visual editor Early alpha released 
(LiveCode 8.0)

There were a number of deliverables promised through stretch goals which were 
met:

Deliverable Status
Resolution Independence Completed
Pluggable ThemesPluggable Themes will 
be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Cocoa   Completed
Physics Engine  Physics Engine will be 
in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Windows/Phone 8 Theme   Windows/Phone 8 Theme will be 
in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Vector Shape Object Vector Shape Object 
will be in a release after LiveCode 8.0
Reworked Multimedia Support 
New Player  Completed on OS X. 
Windows in release LiveCode 8.0. Linux ???
Multi Channel Sound OS X : Linux : Windows 
???
Sound Recording ???
New Browser Control OS X, Windows 
completed. Linux with LiveCode 8.0

I’d appreciate if somebody could let me know the status of the items about 
which I’m unclear and any mistakes I have made.

Regards

Peter






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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:50 am, Ralph DiMola  wrote:
> 
> How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?
> 
> I read the PDF spec and got a headache on the 3 page. I know that PDFium is
> doing the heavy lifting but the PDF spec is nasty. Add bookmarks, PDF fields
> and java into the mix and can get ugly fast.

Indeed it really depends on how much of the PDF spec you want to support. If 
it’s just rendering the PDF to a widget (which is the simplest use case) it 
should be quite easy because PDFium will render an image for a page at a given 
size which can just be shown in the widget. Not hard at all. Text selection etc 
gets a bit more complicated bit overall it will all be much simpler in a widget 
than the Windows & OS X external I’m maintaining at the moment. PDFium BTW is 
the PDF rendering library from Chromium and an open source version of FoxIT SDK.
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

Thanks for the info.  I did not know
what PDFium was and I have never
programmed a widget either.

As you can see I am very limited at
moment.

John Balgenorth


On Aug 17, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

> 
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:50 am, Ralph DiMola  wrote:
>> 
>> How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?
>> 
>> I read the PDF spec and got a headache on the 3 page. I know that PDFium is
>> doing the heavy lifting but the PDF spec is nasty. Add bookmarks, PDF fields
>> and java into the mix and can get ugly fast.
> 
> Indeed it really depends on how much of the PDF spec you want to support. If 
> it’s just rendering the PDF to a widget (which is the simplest use case) it 
> should be quite easy because PDFium will render an image for a page at a 
> given size which can just be shown in the widget. Not hard at all. Text 
> selection etc gets a bit more complicated bit overall it will all be much 
> simpler in a widget than the Windows & OS X external I’m maintaining at the 
> moment. PDFium BTW is the PDF rendering library from Chromium and an open 
> source version of FoxIT SDK.
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

There have been quite a few comments and clearly a number of different views 
amongst members of the community. I would like to add my perspective.

The LiveCode Kickstarter campaign was very unusual in that the LiveCode could 
fulfil all of the rewards without actually having to complete the project. The 
rewards consisted of gifts and existing LiveCode products.

In one sense, LiveCode completed the Kickstarter campaign when all the rewards 
had been delivered. I’m sure that Kickstarter would take this view.

LiveCode kept to the biggest promise it made, LiveCode has been open-sourced 
under the GPL and is freely accessible on Github.

That leaves the other promises made during the Kickstarter campaign. Some made 
initially, some made as stretch goals. I have no doubt that these promises were 
very genuine. Clearly, LiveCode hasn’t been able to deliver them in the time 
they expected. This could be to any number of causes; under estimating and 
resources not being available being the most likely.

To their great credit, the LiveCode team still appears to be committed to 
meeting its Kickstarter promises even though the funds raised to do so must 
have run out a long time ago.

My concern is that it is human nature to push promises made a long time ago to 
the back of our minds. If my report card serves any purpose, it is simply to 
keep the promises in view. 

I would like the promises to be kept. However, if LiveCode were to give a 
reasonable explanation (with an apology) why a promise could no longer be met, 
I would accept it given that I got my rewards, LiveCode has been open-sourced, 
and many of the “feature” promises have been met. 

Peter

PS Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows 8 Phone?




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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 12:45 pm, Peter W A Wood  wrote:
> 
> PS Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows 8 Phone?

Nope… I presume the goal will be bumped to Windows 10???
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Mike Bonner]

Windows 8? No. 10? Yeah probably.  If LC can be updated to be compliant
with the UAP (universal app platform)  If I understand correctly, dong that
means it'll run on win 10, win 10 phones etc. Not sure how the backwards
compatibility works though, and its possible I am way off base here too.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Peter W A Wood 
wrote:

> There have been quite a few comments and clearly a number of different
> views amongst members of the community. I would like to add my perspective.
>
> The LiveCode Kickstarter campaign was very unusual in that the LiveCode
> could fulfil all of the rewards without actually having to complete the
> project. The rewards consisted of gifts and existing LiveCode products.
>
> In one sense, LiveCode completed the Kickstarter campaign when all the
> rewards had been delivered. I’m sure that Kickstarter would take this view.
>
> LiveCode kept to the biggest promise it made, LiveCode has been
> open-sourced under the GPL and is freely accessible on Github.
>
> That leaves the other promises made during the Kickstarter campaign. Some
> made initially, some made as stretch goals. I have no doubt that these
> promises were very genuine. Clearly, LiveCode hasn’t been able to deliver
> them in the time they expected. This could be to any number of causes;
> under estimating and resources not being available being the most likely.
>
> To their great credit, the LiveCode team still appears to be committed to
> meeting its Kickstarter promises even though the funds raised to do so must
> have run out a long time ago.
>
> My concern is that it is human nature to push promises made a long time
> ago to the back of our minds. If my report card serves any purpose, it is
> simply to keep the promises in view.
>
> I would like the promises to be kept. However, if LiveCode were to give a
> reasonable explanation (with an apology) why a promise could no longer be
> met, I would accept it given that I got my rewards, LiveCode has been
> open-sourced, and many of the “feature” promises have been met.
>
> Peter
>
> PS Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows 8
> Phone?
>
>
>
>
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Peter W A Wood]

Richard

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 08:13, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> What usability standards do you feel are not well reflected in the current 
> IDE, and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow what are the first three things 
> you'd do to fix that?

1. Intelligent Code Completion (like intelliSense)
2. Integrated Version Control
3. Support of Multiple targets (like Xcode)

Regards

Peter
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Re: Distribute beta versions of iOS app

[Brahmanathaswami]

hhhm..

Do I read that it is a simple as supplying a URL like this:

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/apps/MyNewApp.app

and sending that to someone who is on the provisioning profile?


Swasti Astu, Be Well!
Brahmanathaswami

Kauai's Hindu Monastery
www.HimalayanAcademy.com



J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 8/17/2015 6:41 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

Assuming the UDID's of the devices are in your provisioning profile is
there an easy way the distribute the app to remote beta testers
outside of apple's ecosystem? Some download URL from our web server?


There's AirLaunch, for one:


It uses a method that you could reproduce manually, but having a 
utility is easier. Note that if you want to distribute from your own 
server, Apple requires it to have an SSL certificate. 



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Re: Distribute beta versions of iOS app

[Brahmanathaswami]

"

*AirLaunch FTP*

AirLaunch provides a built-in FTP client that will upload all the files 
for you, so there's no need to leave LiveCode. Or if you're using 
Dropbox, just move the files into the Public folder and you won't have 
to upload anything at all.


Your 10 last-used server logins are stored securely with SSL, so you 
only have to enter them once. After that, choose it from the list."


uses SFTP to transfer to the server? How did you do that?


--
Swasti Astu, Be Well!
Brahmanathaswami

Kauai's Hindu Monastery
www.HimalayanAcademy.com



J. Landman Gay wrote:

There's AirLaunch, for one:



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Roger Eller]

I think MS learned a valuable lesson from RT with its limited subset of
apps written for the ARM CPU.  Modern MS tablets are using the new
quad-core Atom which is Intel.  It will even run LiveCode on a tablet!  If
Windows phone does the same, there's no reason not to support it.
On Aug 17, 2015 10:55 PM, "Mike Bonner"  wrote:

> Windows 8? No. 10? Yeah probably.  If LC can be updated to be compliant
> with the UAP (universal app platform)  If I understand correctly, dong that
> means it'll run on win 10, win 10 phones etc. Not sure how the backwards
> compatibility works though, and its possible I am way off base here too.
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Peter W A Wood 
> wrote:
>
> > There have been quite a few comments and clearly a number of different
> > views amongst members of the community. I would like to add my
> perspective.
> >
> > The LiveCode Kickstarter campaign was very unusual in that the LiveCode
> > could fulfil all of the rewards without actually having to complete the
> > project. The rewards consisted of gifts and existing LiveCode products.
> >
> > In one sense, LiveCode completed the Kickstarter campaign when all the
> > rewards had been delivered. I’m sure that Kickstarter would take this
> view.
> >
> > LiveCode kept to the biggest promise it made, LiveCode has been
> > open-sourced under the GPL and is freely accessible on Github.
> >
> > That leaves the other promises made during the Kickstarter campaign. Some
> > made initially, some made as stretch goals. I have no doubt that these
> > promises were very genuine. Clearly, LiveCode hasn’t been able to deliver
> > them in the time they expected. This could be to any number of causes;
> > under estimating and resources not being available being the most likely.
> >
> > To their great credit, the LiveCode team still appears to be committed to
> > meeting its Kickstarter promises even though the funds raised to do so
> must
> > have run out a long time ago.
> >
> > My concern is that it is human nature to push promises made a long time
> > ago to the back of our minds. If my report card serves any purpose, it is
> > simply to keep the promises in view.
> >
> > I would like the promises to be kept. However, if LiveCode were to give a
> > reasonable explanation (with an apology) why a promise could no longer be
> > met, I would accept it given that I got my rewards, LiveCode has been
> > open-sourced, and many of the “feature” promises have been met.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > PS Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows 8
> > Phone?
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

Monte

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 10:52, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 12:45 pm, Peter W A Wood  wrote:
>> 
>> PS Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows 8 Phone?
> 
> Nope… I presume the goal will be bumped to Windows 10???

Perhaps there is no need for a replacement. After all, it looks to me that you 
cannot sell GPL licensed software through the Windows App Store so LiveCode 
will be motivated to include Windows 10 support as it could help them sell more 
indy licences. (Assuming that Windows 10 and its appstore takes off).

Cheers

Peter


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter W A Wood wrote:

> Does anybody still think it is worth LiveCode supporting Windows
> 8 Phone?

If you and I bought Win8 phones to test with we'd double the installed 
base. :)


I don't think there's a need for Win *phone* per se, but we do need 
touch support on Windows, and Ubuntu as well, and by the time we get 
those in place we'll need it for OS X as well.




--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter W A Wood wrote:

> After all, it looks to me that you cannot sell GPL licensed software
> through the Windows App Store

I couldn't find anything definitive on that.  I did find some older 
articles about Win8 licensing suggesting FOSS was prohibited, but I also 
found this one from 2011 that says the opposite:


   Windows 8 Store will allow open source apps,
   unlike iOS and Mac App Stores
   ...
The section in question states that apps released under a license
from the Open Source Initiative (GPL, Apache, etc.) can be
distributed in the Windows Store. Further, it says that the OSI
license will trump the Microsoft Standard Application License
Terms, namely the the restriction on sharing applications.


And that was back when Ballmer was still there.  Since Nadella took the 
helm Microsoft has fallen in love with Linux, started moving their dev 
tools to open source, and is partnering with Ubuntu as a key component 
of their Azure cloud platform.  (No, really, it's like hell froze over 
in a flock of flying pigs - the photo here is priceless, something no 
one ever expected for decades: 
 
)


Anyone have a definitive notice on this, preferably one from Microsoft 
themselves?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:29, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Peter W A Wood wrote:
> 
> > After all, it looks to me that you cannot sell GPL licensed software
> > through the Windows App Store
> 
> I couldn't find anything definitive on that.  I did find some older articles 
> about Win8 licensing suggesting FOSS was prohibited, but I also found this 
> one from 2011 that says the opposite:
> 
>   Windows 8 Store will allow open source apps,
>   unlike iOS and Mac App Stores
>   ...
>The section in question states that apps released under a license
>from the Open Source Initiative (GPL, Apache, etc.) can be
>distributed in the Windows Store. Further, it says that the OSI
>license will trump the Microsoft Standard Application License
>Terms, namely the the restriction on sharing applications.
> 
> 
> And that was back when Ballmer was still there.  Since Nadella took the helm 
> Microsoft has fallen in love with Linux, started moving their dev tools to 
> open source, and is partnering with Ubuntu as a key component of their Azure 
> cloud platform.  (No, really, it's like hell froze over in a flock of flying 
> pigs - the photo here is priceless, something no one ever expected for 
> decades: 
> 
>  )
> 
> Anyone have a definitive notice on this, preferably one from Microsoft 
> themselves?

I interpreted this clause from the latest Windows Store App Developer 
Agreement, to mean that GPL software cannot be sold via the App Store:

d.  FOSS Software. If your App includes FOSS, (i) you are responsible for 
compliance with all applicable FOSS license terms, including any source code 
availability requirements, and (ii) it must not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft 
software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS license.
I could well be wrong though.

Regards

Peter
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter W A Wood wrote:

>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 08:13, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> What usability standards do you feel are not well reflected in the
>> current IDE, and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow what are the
>> first three things you'd do to fix that?
>
> 1. Intelligent Code Completion (like intelliSense)

I keep hearing talk about that, but it's not on the Road Map and given 
the number of tasks in the queue it may be a long time before it shows up.


I agree, though, worth pursuing.

Why can't we make that as a plugin?


> 2. Integrated Version Control

Looks like lcVCS is a more generalized solution than what LiveCode Ltd. 
is including with their Biz package, so we're on our way on that one.



> 3. Support of Multiple targets (like Xcode)

What are "multiple targets" in an IDE?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Monte Goulding]

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 1:36 pm, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> > 3. Support of Multiple targets (like Xcode)
> 
> What are "multiple targets" in an IDE?

I’m guessing he means being able to have more than one set of standalone 
settings as a named target. You could include different stacks or extra files 
in copy files… even use a different app name. Wouldn’t be that hard to do… you 
might want a default target that the others inherit from unless their value is 
different...
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[RunRevPlanet]

Peter said:

 > I have no doubt that these promises
 > were very genuine. Clearly, LiveCode
 > hasn’t been able to deliver them in
 > the time they expected.

I never doubt the sincerity of LiveCode Ltd. and the team behind it.

But when a major feature which would be a tangible improvement for *everyone*
using LiveCode is pushed to the end of the roadmap it is frustrating.

* First it was open source that was going to help make the Next Generation IDE.

* Then it was the magic of widgets that would boost productivity.

* But I later discover the "LiveCode Builder" language needs to be finished to
empower widgets and IDE.

* In the meantime, LiveCode HTML 5 deployment is also coming, soon...

Here is my point and regret: every month that a new user downloads LiveCode,
plays with the IDE, and then leaves (likely never return) and laughs with her
colleagues about a code editor that doesn't have bookmarks or search and replace
in selected text, is a month wasted in building up the LiveCode user base.

Forget the big plans and clever stuff like code completion or code tips, just
deliver basic functionality that should be standard in any IDE worthy of he name
Integrated Development Environment straight out of the box and then maybe the
"tire kickers" will stay and the number of users grow.

--
Scott McDonald
"Components, Controls, Tools and Resources for LiveCode"
www.runrevplanet.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[JB]

Ia rhea what you mean by PDF specs?

PORTABLE DOCUMENT FORMAT (PDF) SPECIFICATIONS

Technical Specifications Document 



John Balgenorth



On Aug 17, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:

> 
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:50 am, Ralph DiMola  wrote:
>> 
>> How hard can it be to add pdf support to open-source?
>> 
>> I read the PDF spec and got a headache on the 3 page. I know that PDFium is
>> doing the heavy lifting but the PDF spec is nasty. Add bookmarks, PDF fields
>> and java into the mix and can get ugly fast.
> 
> Indeed it really depends on how much of the PDF spec you want to support. If 
> it’s just rendering the PDF to a widget (which is the simplest use case) it 
> should be quite easy because PDFium will render an image for a page at a 
> given size which can just be shown in the widget. Not hard at all. Text 
> selection etc gets a bit more complicated bit overall it will all be much 
> simpler in a widget than the Windows & OS X external I’m maintaining at the 
> moment. PDFium BTW is the PDF rendering library from Chromium and an open 
> source version of FoxIT SDK.
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Peter W A Wood]

Richard

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 11:36, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Peter W A Wood wrote:
> 
> >> On 18 Aug 2015, at 08:13, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> What usability standards do you feel are not well reflected in the
> >> current IDE, and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow what are the
> >> first three things you'd do to fix that?
> >
> > 1. Intelligent Code Completion (like intelliSense)
> 
> I keep hearing talk about that, but it's not on the Road Map and given the 
> number of tasks in the queue it may be a long time before it shows up.

Any "new visual editor designed around today’s usability standards" would 
include this, even older ones like Delphi do. 

> > 2. Integrated Version Control
> 
> Looks like lcVCS is a more generalized solution than what LiveCode Ltd. is 
> including with their Biz package, so we're on our way on that one.

Again today’s usability standards for visual editors would include git 
integration as a minimum, even for visually designed elements. Sure this would 
require LiveCode to add object state serialisation Of the IDE’s I know both 
Delphi and Xcode include object state serialisation. Vector graphics drawing 
tools do. Again it is something you would expect in a modern visual editor.

> > 3. Support of Multiple targets (like Xcode)
> 
> What are "multiple targets" in an IDE?

Very much as Monte said. Specifically would be the ability to define both test, 
debug and distribution targets. The test target would cause an automated test 
suite to run, the debug target would build and run a version including 
additional debugging code etc.

With LiveCode’s cross-platform credentials, it should be possible to select the 
iOS test target (one for each device), click-on run and your stack should be 
run in an iOS simulator. Similar for Android.

Again, I see these as features to be part of today’s usability standards.

The issue here is that the promise of a “new visual editor designed around 
today’s usability standards” is extremely broad. It means different things to 
different people depending on their context. I think it’s great from a 
marketing perspective, it has something to attract a lot of people, and it's 
horrible from a customer satisfaction perspective as most people will be 
disappointed when it doesn’t meet their expectation.

Regards

Peter


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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter W A Wood wrote:

> I interpreted this clause from the latest Windows Store App Developer
> Agreement, to mean that GPL software cannot be sold via the App Store:
>
> d. FOSS Software. If your App includes FOSS, (i) you are
> responsible for compliance with all applicable FOSS license terms,
> including any source code availability requirements, and (ii) it must
> not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft software to become subject to the
> terms of any FOSS license.
> I could well be wrong though.

Seems very accepting of FOSS.  I can't imagine anyone would try to 
distribute something that places restrictions on the OS vendor.


I haven't spent much time looking, but I haven't heard any objections 
from the Free Software Foundation, and they're usually quite vocal about 
such things.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Peter W A Wood]

Richard 

> On 18 Aug 2015, at 12:51, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Peter W A Wood wrote:
> 
> > I interpreted this clause from the latest Windows Store App Developer
> > Agreement, to mean that GPL software cannot be sold via the App Store:
> >
> > d.  FOSS Software. If your App includes FOSS, (i) you are
> > responsible for compliance with all applicable FOSS license terms,
> > including any source code availability requirements, and (ii) it must
> > not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft software to become subject to the
> > terms of any FOSS license.
> > I could well be wrong though.
> 
> Seems very accepting of FOSS.  I can't imagine anyone would try to distribute 
> something that places restrictions on the OS vendor.
> 
> I haven't spent much time looking, but I haven't heard any objections from 
> the Free Software Foundation, and they're usually quite vocal about such 
> things.

I believe that the statement “ it must not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft 
software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS license.” would 
specifically exclude the use of GPL licensed software - 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/08/open_source_windows_8_windows_store/

Regards

Peter
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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Richard Gaskin]

RunRevPlanet wrote:

Here is my point and regret: every month that a new user downloads LiveCode,
plays with the IDE, and then leaves (likely never return) and laughs with her
colleagues about a code editor that doesn't have bookmarks or search and replace
in selected text, is a month wasted in building up the LiveCode user base.

Forget the big plans and clever stuff like code completion or code tips, just
deliver basic functionality that should be standard in any IDE worthy of he name
Integrated Development Environment straight out of the box and then maybe the
"tire kickers" will stay and the number of users grow.


Been meaning to say that your earlier to-do list was a most excellent one.

But what you wrote here is so compellingly clear and succinct, I hope 
it's well understood.


The other stuff is cool, but let's keep it real: it's a scripting 
language, and it needs a world-class editor.  The editor is where any 
user of any scripting language will be spending most of their time, so 
no matter how cool anything else is the experience will diminish if the 
editor isn't top-notch.


Besides, the script editor is what the team needs to work on LiveCode, 
and what all of us need to contribute, so there's nothing but reasons to 
make it the #1 priority.


The script editor got a good makeover a few years ago, but it's grown 
since then and has become Third Level Slow on the Gaskin Inverse 
Performance Scale:

1. Measurably Slow
2. Noticeably Slow
3. Annoyingly Slow
4. Prohibitively Slow

It's not quite at 4 yet, but when a 3.0GHz Haswell has trouble keeping 
up with my slow typing I figure it's being asked to work way too hard.


Probably a lot of opportunity for optimization there, and along with it 
a chance to tidy it up a bit, add the code completion newcomers keep 
asking for every month in the forums, and flatten appearances along the way.


If I were running the show (and there are many reasons most people are 
glad I'm not) I'd take my best engineers and put them on the script 
editor full-time until it's clean, robust, and performant.


Then I'd put them on the debugger.

And only when those two are air-tight would I resume work on anything else.

Because unless those two are air-tight, nothing else matters.

All the cool new greenfield stuff will be just a playground for an aging 
audience of a fixed size if newcomers are disappointed with very basic 
essentials.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Distribute beta versions of iOS app

[J. Landman Gay]

On 8/17/2015 10:00 PM, Brahmanathaswami wrote:

*AirLaunch FTP*

AirLaunch provides a built-in FTP client that will upload all the files
for you, so there's no need to leave LiveCode. Or if you're using
Dropbox, just move the files into the Public folder and you won't have
to upload anything at all.

Your 10 last-used server logins are stored securely with SSL, so you
only have to enter them once. After that, choose it from the list."

uses SFTP to transfer to the server? How did you do that?


No, it doesn't use SFTP for the actual transfer. The app stores up to 10 
URLs and passwords for various server logins so that you don't have to 
re-enter them every time you want to do an upload. They're stored 
encrypted so that they're safe on disk, but for now we're still stuck 
with regular FTP for the actual file transfers. You don't have to use 
the FTP in AirLaunch though, you can move the files to the server using 
any FTP client.


There doesn't seem to be much risk using unencrypted FTP though, since 
no one can use your app except those who are listed in your developer 
profile. It won't install or run for anyone else.


For your other question:


Do I read that it is a simple as supplying a URL like this:

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/apps/MyNewApp.app

and sending that to someone who is on the provisioning profile?


Not exactly. The app itself can't be distributed as-is, you need to 
build a special distribution package. That's the tedious part that 
AirLaunch automates. You can find info on how to do that on the web. 
It's a lot of futzing around, and ater a while I got tired of it and 
wrote AirLaunch.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card (Updated)

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter W A Wood wrote:
> I believe that the statement “ it must not cause any non-FOSS
> Microsoft software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS
> license.” would specifically exclude the use of GPL licensed software
> - 



The Register is normally a very good source for tech stuff, but the 
author tips his hand as being a bit interpretive, first noting that 
Microsoft themselves wrote:


   'FOSS' means any software licensed under an Open Source Initiative
   Approved License.”

..but then editorializing this assumption:

   The invitation does not extend to GPL.

   Microsoft’s agreement continues:

   “If your app includes FOSS, it must not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft
software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS license.”
   Although Microsoft didn't name it, it's talking about GPL.

But is it?  GPL v2 and v3 are both on the OSI list of "approved" 
licenses (whatever that means; OSI is a much younger org than FSF, and 
while I appreciate their work and tend toward their politics more than 
the FSF's, naming their list "Approved" complicates things 
unnecessarily, and IMNSHO smacks of simple granstanding).


More to the point, if this author's interpretation is correct, and 
everything Microsoft has been doing to further embrace open source in 
the years since is somehow wrong, then applying that equally it means 
that no one could distribute any GPL-governed software on any platform 
but Linux.


That would be a rare view.  Rare enough that I've not seen anyone else 
suggest it.


Then again, with open source growing as it is and the GPL licenses 
comprising a majority of those, that would be one more reason for more 
major orgs to switch to Linux. :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com



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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[Peter TB Brett]

On 2015-08-18 04:36, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Peter W A Wood wrote:


On 18 Aug 2015, at 08:13, Richard Gaskin wrote:

What usability standards do you feel are not well reflected in the
current IDE, and if Kevin made you IDE Czar tomorrow what are the
first three things you'd do to fix that?


1. Intelligent Code Completion (like intelliSense)


I keep hearing talk about that, but it's not on the Road Map and given
the number of tasks in the queue it may be a long time before it shows
up.


It's high up on our priority list, and we've discussed it extensively 
within the team (we even have an extremely incomplete proof of concept). 
 We'd really like to have it for internal use, and we know that it'll be 
a big, big usability improvement for the IDE.  On the other hand, our 
priority list is very long, and there's still a lot of things above it.


My *guess* is that we'll have something basic out by the end of the year 
(please don't bring pitchforks and torches if I'm wrong).


  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Engine Development Team


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Re: Restore corrupted stack

[Peter Bogdanoff]

I’m aware of the tilde file naming while saving a stack. I didn’t see that.

I saw this sort of corruption in the past (LC 5 or 6) where a stack functions 
correctly as far as I could tell while it is open. When it is closed and 
reopened the corruption message appears. In my case, I left the LC 7 stack open 
for some days, while making backups from the Finder. Not until I quit and 
reopened it did I find out it was bad.

I have since rescripted my lost work—meanwhile making text document backups of 
important scripts.

Peter Bogdanoff
UCLA


> On Aug 17, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> This happened to me the first time I opened a stack in version 7. Check to 
> see if there is a stack file with a tilde (~) in the name in the same folder 
> as the original stack. When LC attempts to convert a stack, it saves the old 
> stack using a tilde in the name so you can recover if something has gone 
> horribly awry. This file can be renamed and opened in the old version of LC.
> 
> If you can do all this, the next thing to do is subscribe to a decent cloud 
> based backup system that has versioning, so you can recover in case things go 
> catastrophically awry (not to be confused with horribly awry, which is not 
> nearly as terrible as catastrophic).
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> On Aug 15, 2015, at 11:18 , J. Landman Gay 
> mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com>> wrote:
> 
> On 8/14/2015 11:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff wrote:
> Yes, I understand the change in stack format. Unfortunately the stack
> won’t open in any version of LC 7. I always get the stack corrupted
> dialog.
> 
> In that case I think the team would like to see the stack, so it's probably 
> time for a bug report.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
> jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | 
> http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Restore corrupted stack

[J. Landman Gay]

On 8/18/2015 12:44 AM, Peter Bogdanoff wrote:

I saw this sort of corruption in the past (LC 5 or 6) where a stack
functions correctly as far as I could tell while it is open. When it
is closed and reopened the corruption message appears. In my case, I
left the LC 7 stack open for some days, while making backups from the
Finder. Not until I quit and reopened it did I find out it was bad.


Now you've got me worried. I've been working on a LC 7 stack for days 
too without closing it.


Please send your corrupted stack to the QCC so they can fix it before it 
happens to me too.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

[RunRevPlanet]

Richard said:

 > All the cool new greenfield stuff will
 > be just a playground for an aging
 > audience of a fixed size if newcomers are
 > disappointed with very basic
 > essentials.

That's the thing, because I know how *awesome* LiveCode is, I have been willing
to put up with the IDE as it stands.

Then the Kickstarter Campaign reached the target, and gave me hope that the IDE
would improve.

But when LiveCode 8.0 DP came along (and internal debugging code
notwithstanding) it is disappointing. I was under the false impressions that
after putting up with 7.0, version 8.0 was to be the good one.

But no, it is even slower and it feels like it is conspiring to waste my time
when I try to do tests as have to watch as menus redraw, the editor scrolling,
or I am waiting for the text cursor to appear.

Richard said:

 > If I were running the show (and there
 > are many reasons most people are glad
 > I'm not) I'd take my best engineers
 > and put them on the script editor
 > full-time until it's clean, robust,
 > and performant.

Wise words.

If the LiveCode tech blog had periodic updates about this sort of work (not the
you won't believe the amazing things we have for you in the future type) and DP
builds so we can test and feedback, then I would feel much more easy about the
direction and ability of LiveCode to deliver.
--
Scott McDonald
"Components, Controls, Tools and Resources for LiveCode"
www.runrevplanet.com

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