Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

>> Letting someone use gparted to partition his disk who doesn't know
>> anything about partitioning will probably end in a big data desaster.
>> And whom will this user blame for it? Certainly not himself for doing
>> tasks he doesn't understand but the GUI for letting it do him (even if
>> it has big warnings).
>> 
>
> The user can blame anyone he wants. The rest of the world shouldn't
> care about that. I find this whole blaming angle very unproductive.
> Should Gparted not exist? Should Synaptic? Or the PolicyKit editor?
> Rapache? The LVM manager? All can be used to destroy data or create
> security leaks. But all are used to save time for those that
> understand how they work.
>
>   
And we have no problem with that. We have a problem with those who 
believe that such tools should be marketed to the uninitiated. This 
thread was started with the premise of doing what?

"What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with 
Windows Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and 
works best with Ubuntu workstations."

"My theory is that people trying Ubuntu Server are probably Windows
administrators and find it daunting that there's no GUI. If they don't turn
away then, they turn away when they discover there's 48 chapters of Samba
documentation to read through just to get a functional domain server. Very
few administrators would see this as a viable replacement for their Windows
server."

You want to tell me that most Windows administrators cannot handle the command 
line and scripts? You want to tell me that Windows is 'very easy to manage'? 
Right. Maybe for setups that just use the bare minimum, does not use group 
policy and scripts.

But guess what. Microsoft uses a predefined configuration and so they can 
release tools that automate that. I say give those in such situations a 
predefined configuration and a foolproof gui tool but then somebody opposes 
that. I point out that a gui that 'supports' everything is not suitable to the 
uninitiated then somebody accuses me of protecting my iron rice bowl and being 
some elitist jerk.

So, short of an AI, I cannot think of something that will satisfy all you out 
there. If someone can use a manual drive, that one is free to drive a manual or 
an automatic. You don't blame the manual's designer if it cannot accommodate a 
person that only knows how to use an automatic nor a semi-automatic's designer 
if the person does not understand the effects of trying to start off in the 
highest gear.




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Topic change: What do you think of Quickly?

[Christopher Lees]

Has anyone on here tried out Quickly? It's a new tool in Ubuntu 9.10
that does these things:

1. Includes a template for Glade that does a lot of the ground-work of
UI design for you (backend in Python)
2. Makes it easy to use bzr as version control on your own system for
your project
3. Builds Debian packages for you and uploads them to your PPA
4. Every one of those things I mentioned is just one command away.

If you want a demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EctXzH2dss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwr5Xw5ZrIE

I see this might be valuable in letting people write GUI frontends for
terminal tasks...

(let's agree to disagree on the other thing, eh?)


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Markus Hitter]

Am 21.11.2009 um 22:38 schrieb Remco:

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 19:58, Michael Bienia   
> wrote:
>> On 2009-11-21 17:37:46 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote:
>>> 
>>> Oh, perhaps you prefer command line disk partitioning over  
>>> gparted as
>>> well. It's doable and much more flexible :-)
>>
>> gparted is probably a good GUI (hadn't have to repartition my disk  
>> for a
>> long time, so never used it till now). But does it help someone to
>> partition his disk properly who doesn't know about primary/logical
>> partitions, filesystem types, mount points, etc.?
>
> It doesn't.

Well, it does. It gives a visual representation of how the result  
will be, it translates partition codes to human readable descriptions  
("ext2", "FAT32", ...), it takes some care to avoid conflicts and it  
invokes the correct tools to format the newly created partitions.

On the command line, you have a lot more chances to do things wrong.


Markus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Shentino]

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Chan Chung Hang Christopher <
christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:

>
> >> Letting someone use gparted to partition his disk who doesn't know
> >> anything about partitioning will probably end in a big data desaster.
> >> And whom will this user blame for it? Certainly not himself for doing
> >> tasks he doesn't understand but the GUI for letting it do him (even if
> >> it has big warnings).
> >>
> >
> > The user can blame anyone he wants. The rest of the world shouldn't
> > care about that. I find this whole blaming angle very unproductive.
> > Should Gparted not exist? Should Synaptic? Or the PolicyKit editor?
> > Rapache? The LVM manager? All can be used to destroy data or create
> > security leaks. But all are used to save time for those that
> > understand how they work.
> >
> >
> And we have no problem with that. We have a problem with those who
> believe that such tools should be marketed to the uninitiated. This
> thread was started with the premise of doing what?
>
> "What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
> Windows Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and
> works best with Ubuntu workstations."
>
> "My theory is that people trying Ubuntu Server are probably Windows
> administrators and find it daunting that there's no GUI. If they don't turn
> away then, they turn away when they discover there's 48 chapters of Samba
> documentation to read through just to get a functional domain server. Very
> few administrators would see this as a viable replacement for their Windows
> server."
>
> You want to tell me that most Windows administrators cannot handle the
> command line and scripts? You want to tell me that Windows is 'very easy to
> manage'? Right. Maybe for setups that just use the bare minimum, does not
> use group policy and scripts.
>
> But guess what. Microsoft uses a predefined configuration and so they can
> release tools that automate that. I say give those in such situations a
> predefined configuration and a foolproof gui tool but then somebody opposes
> that. I point out that a gui that 'supports' everything is not suitable to
> the uninitiated then somebody accuses me of protecting my iron rice bowl and
> being some elitist jerk.
>
> So, short of an AI, I cannot think of something that will satisfy all you
> out there. If someone can use a manual drive, that one is free to drive a
> manual or an automatic. You don't blame the manual's designer if it cannot
> accommodate a person that only knows how to use an automatic nor a
> semi-automatic's designer if the person does not understand the effects of
> trying to start off in the highest gear.
>

It almost implies here that one of Microsoft's tactics is to dumb the user
down on purpose so that their minds are crippled and they come to rely on MS
doing the majority of the configurational grunt work for them.  A form of
"lock-in by frustration" if you will that triggers whenever they try to step
out of the "windows penthouse".

Then, when we try to open them up to "the second choice" they promptly get
scared off or frustrated, or both, by the huge menu of options open to them.

My opinion is that for ubuntu to attract people from the windows admin crowd
it needs to mimic that sense of "opaque hood" that keeps them from ever
worrying about the guts.

I think that any spin of ubuntu catering to such users should have a
configurable setup option along the lines of "express" or "custom" or
"expert mode" or something, so that those folks who don't have a clue about
anything but pushing the high level buttons won't be forced to risk screwing
up.  Any user who wishes to use "express" setup should be set up with a rock
solid default profile and have most of the configuration done for them.
Naturally, peppering it with "learn more..." or "under the hood" links to
where they can get themselves an education about what's REALLY going
wouldn't be a bad idea ;).

Deciding that those defaults actually would be is another kettle of fish
entirely and I surmise that a democratic process of some sort, perhaps
brainstorm, would be a good way to settle this inherently political section.

Finally, I think it's fair to give MS its due here.  Whether by fair means
or foul, MS has a commanding presence in the market and we simply have to
accept that as the way things currently are.  Any meaningful effort to get
market share away from MS needs to be able to successfully accomodate the
windows users and help them migrate, at least long enough for them to get
the feel for "The Linux Way (tm)".

People used to Windows that are trying out Ubuntu anything for the first
time are from their point of view venturing into uncharted waters.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Remco]

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 20:18, Markus Hitter  wrote:
>
> Am 21.11.2009 um 22:38 schrieb Remco:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 19:58, Michael Bienia  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2009-11-21 17:37:46 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote:

 
 Oh, perhaps you prefer command line disk partitioning over gparted as
 well. It's doable and much more flexible :-)
>>>
>>> gparted is probably a good GUI (hadn't have to repartition my disk for a
>>> long time, so never used it till now). But does it help someone to
>>> partition his disk properly who doesn't know about primary/logical
>>> partitions, filesystem types, mount points, etc.?
>>
>> It doesn't.
>
> Well, it does. It gives a visual representation of how the result will be,
> it translates partition codes to human readable descriptions ("ext2",
> "FAT32", ...), it takes some care to avoid conflicts and it invokes the
> correct tools to format the newly created partitions.
>
> On the command line, you have a lot more chances to do things wrong.

Yes, that's precisely the thing that Gparted helps you with. That's
why I, as a partitioning expert (hee), still value Gparted. But it
does not help my mom, who doesn't know the difference between a
partition and a filesystem. I don't think we want to cater to these
'normal users' with these GUI administration tools. We want to cater
to administrators with varying degrees of experience, making them more
productive and less error prone. At least, that's why *I* want GUI
tools.

-- 
Remco

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Markus Hitter]

Am 22.11.2009 um 20:44 schrieb Remco:

> We want to cater to administrators with varying degrees of  
> experience, making them more
> productive and less error prone. At least, that's why *I* want GUI  
> tools.

Well said.




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icewm_1.2.37+1.3.4pre2-3_amd64.deb broken since Karmic release

[Christian Schugitsch]

I've been waiting for weeks for a usable icewm package.
Anyone working on a solution?

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Re: icewm_1.2.37+1.3.4pre2-3_amd64.deb broken since Karmic release

[Joao Pinto]

Did you file a bug report :) ?

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Christian Schugitsch  wrote:

> I've been waiting for weeks for a usable icewm package.
> Anyone working on a solution?
>
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Re: icewm_1.2.37+1.3.4pre2-3_amd64.deb broken since Karmic release

[Christian Schugitsch]

Maybe someone has noticed this one:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icewm/+bug/458100



Joao Pinto schrieb:
> Did you file a bug report :) ?
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Christian Schugitsch  > wrote:
>
> I've been waiting for weeks for a usable icewm package.
> Anyone working on a solution?
>
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>
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Re: Simple question on directfb

[Andrea Gasparini]

Hi, 

> Debian has made their package compatible with dh 7 [2] in which case
> is the dh_installchangelogs option necessary? or will dh 7 pick it up
> through dh_auto_install/dh_install ?

A run of 
dh  --no-act 
will show you all the commands still not executed to complete that action
( look at the dh man page for further explainations )
So, in a clean directory, a 
dh binary --no-act 
will give you the whole sequence of commands.

bye
-- 
-gaspa-
---
- http://launchpad.net/~gaspa -
-- HomePage: http://gaspa.yattaweb.it ---
-Il lunedi'dell'arrampicatore: www.lunedi.org -

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Re: icewm_1.2.37+1.3.4pre2-3_amd64.deb broken since Karmic release

[Daniel Chen]

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Christian Schugitsch  wrote:
> Maybe someone has noticed this one:
>
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icewm/+bug/458100

Yes, and I've requested additional information.

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Eclipse in software-center

[Benjamin Drung]

Hi,

The software-center does not show all packages, but only a subset of
them (the ones that are recognised as applications). The Eclipse
software is mapped to the eclipse-platform package. This is a bad
choice. There should be Eclipse - Java Development Tools mapped to
eclipse-jdt and Eclipse mapped to eclipse-pde (Plug-in Development
Tools) for all others, who want to install plug-ins (like CDT).

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ubuntu-releases package

[Benjamin Drung]

Hi,

Install karmic and start packaging. Then you will discover this: dch
will use karmic as default, but new packages target either lucid or
karmic-proposed. lintian does not know lucid. They may be other package,
wich are not aware of lucid. Here is my idea to solve this issue:

Introduce a ubuntu-releases package. This package will have a list of
all known Ubuntu releases. A small script will give you the needed
information, based on the releases list and the current date. Examples:

ubuntu-release
returns the running series (same as lsb_release -sc)

ubuntu-release -d
returns the current development series (now it would be lucid)

ubuntu-release -s
returns the latest stable series (currently it would be karmic)

ubuntu-release --lts
returns the latest stable lts release (currently hardy)

ubuntu-release --supported
returns a list of all supported series

lintian, dch, and other tools would use ubuntu-release instead of using
hardcoded values. Then only one package needs an update, if Mark
announce the next codename. I am willing to write this script and to
maintain it.

What do you think about it?

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Christopher Chan]

>
> Deciding that those defaults actually would be is another kettle of 
> fish entirely and I surmise that a democratic process of some sort, 
> perhaps brainstorm, would be a good way to settle this inherently 
> political section.
>

That can of worms has to be opened and emptied. The one single problem 
about adopting 'Linux' has pretty much been a lack of a uniform standard 
whether it comes to administration or programming. We can thank the 
Linux kernel developers for contributing to this with their 'moving 
target interfaces' mantra too. I guess we can sigh with relief that at 
least with respects to office software, there is more or less one 
standard - Openoffice and ODF.

> Finally, I think it's fair to give MS its due here.  Whether by fair 
> means or foul, MS has a commanding presence in the market and we 
> simply have to accept that as the way things currently are.  Any 
> meaningful effort to get market share away from MS needs to be able to 
> successfully accomodate the windows users and help them migrate, at 
> least long enough for them to get the feel for "The Linux Way (tm)".
>
> People used to Windows that are trying out Ubuntu anything for the 
> first time are from their point of view venturing into uncharted waters.

Those same people ventured into uncharted waters before getting used to 
Windows. You bet that they were quite happy to do the same when they 
bought their Mac. Of course, if we take the server side angle, it would 
be a whole different story. Users are probably more willing to learn 
something new than a certain breed of Microsoft administrators that is 
forever implied at here.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Ryan Dwyer]

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Christopher Chan <
christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:

>
> >
> > Deciding that those defaults actually would be is another kettle of
> > fish entirely and I surmise that a democratic process of some sort,
> > perhaps brainstorm, would be a good way to settle this inherently
> > political section.
> >
>
> That can of worms has to be opened and emptied. The one single problem
> about adopting 'Linux' has pretty much been a lack of a uniform standard
> whether it comes to administration or programming. We can thank the
> Linux kernel developers for contributing to this with their 'moving
> target interfaces' mantra too. I guess we can sigh with relief that at
> least with respects to office software, there is more or less one
> standard - Openoffice and ODF.
>
> > Finally, I think it's fair to give MS its due here.  Whether by fair
> > means or foul, MS has a commanding presence in the market and we
> > simply have to accept that as the way things currently are.  Any
> > meaningful effort to get market share away from MS needs to be able to
> > successfully accomodate the windows users and help them migrate, at
> > least long enough for them to get the feel for "The Linux Way (tm)".
> >
> > People used to Windows that are trying out Ubuntu anything for the
> > first time are from their point of view venturing into uncharted waters.
>
> Those same people ventured into uncharted waters before getting used to
> Windows. You bet that they were quite happy to do the same when they
> bought their Mac. Of course, if we take the server side angle, it would
> be a whole different story. Users are probably more willing to learn
> something new than a certain breed of Microsoft administrators that is
> forever implied at here.
>

That's not true for me. I manage Windows networks at work and use Ubuntu
exclusively at home. I would love to migrate them all to Ubuntu and rid
Windows from the workplace but Ubuntu has no suitable product to do so which
just works out of the box.

Though it would be interesting to know just how many Windows administrators
have heard of Linux, used Linux, and done sysadmin tasks on Linux.

-Ryan


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Christopher Chan]

Ryan Dwyer wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Christopher Chan 
>  > wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Deciding that those defaults actually would be is another kettle of
> > fish entirely and I surmise that a democratic process of some sort,
> > perhaps brainstorm, would be a good way to settle this inherently
> > political section.
> >
>
> That can of worms has to be opened and emptied. The one single problem
> about adopting 'Linux' has pretty much been a lack of a uniform
> standard
> whether it comes to administration or programming. We can thank the
> Linux kernel developers for contributing to this with their 'moving
> target interfaces' mantra too. I guess we can sigh with relief that at
> least with respects to office software, there is more or less one
> standard - Openoffice and ODF.
>
> > Finally, I think it's fair to give MS its due here.  Whether by fair
> > means or foul, MS has a commanding presence in the market and we
> > simply have to accept that as the way things currently are.  Any
> > meaningful effort to get market share away from MS needs to be
> able to
> > successfully accomodate the windows users and help them migrate, at
> > least long enough for them to get the feel for "The Linux Way (tm)".
> >
> > People used to Windows that are trying out Ubuntu anything for the
> > first time are from their point of view venturing into uncharted
> waters.
>
> Those same people ventured into uncharted waters before getting
> used to
> Windows. You bet that they were quite happy to do the same when they
> bought their Mac. Of course, if we take the server side angle, it
> would
> be a whole different story. Users are probably more willing to learn
> something new than a certain breed of Microsoft administrators that is
> forever implied at here.
>
>
> That's not true for me. I manage Windows networks at work and use 
> Ubuntu exclusively at home. I would love to migrate them all to Ubuntu 
> and rid Windows from the workplace but Ubuntu has no suitable product 
> to do so which just works out of the box.

Windows networks do not work out of the box. You need to configure each 
computer from ADS controller to the last Windows XP/2000 Professional 
workstation. I hope you are not expecting something different with Linux 
(but I love to see that though - it would give whichever distro that 
does this an upper hand).

But if you are looking for controlling the desktops/profiles, yada, 
yada, please thank the Kubuntu Team for taking KDE 3 off their packaging 
list as there is nothing else available but KDE 3.5 and kiosktool that 
gives you the ability to control desktops based on groups and nobody has 
as yet stepped up to the plate to port kiosktool over to KDE 4.

>
> Though it would be interesting to know just how many Windows 
> administrators have heard of Linux, used Linux, and done sysadmin 
> tasks on Linux.


and what level of administrator they are too.

I pretty much expect paper MCSEs not to be part of the list but now that 
Microsoft is phasing out the MCSE certificate, I guess we need a new 
name for those who got their certificate by cramming.

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Re: ubuntu-releases package

[Paul Gevers]

Just my humble opinion.

Benjamin Drung wrote:
> Install karmic and start packaging. Then you will discover this: dch
> will use karmic as default, but new packages target either lucid or
> karmic-proposed. lintian does not know lucid. They may be other package,
> wich are not aware of lucid. Here is my idea to solve this issue:

I think that if you are "developing" you should test-build and test with
the latest lintian in a development environment, eg pbuilder or
pdebuild. Then lintian is up-to-date anyway. Only dch might need some
more intelligence.

Paul



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