Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

Remco wrote:
> Once upon a time, Linux was very hard to use on the desktop. If you
> wanted to do anything, you had to read manuals and get flamed on
> mailinglists. In recent years this has all been turned around. There
> were some detractors that would argue that Linux would become as
> insecure as Windows because any fool could now use it, but that didn't
> quite happen.
>
> I don't see why this would be different for server administration. An
> Apache server is very easy to set up, even now. Just install apache
> and you're done. Still, we're not getting complaints that Ubuntu blew
> up the Internet.
>   

Way back when I was still learning and had a Redhat Linux 7.0 natbox, it 
got rooted and I only found out by chance when I saw a glibc 3.0 package 
listed as installed and just happened to be aware that glibc latest 
version was 2.2. For present desktops, you get this lovely software 
update reminders/alerts and of course apt/yum already preconfigured.

You suppose a mom and pop outfit will be constantly monitoring their 
server and will therefore remember to update the thing before it gets 
rooted?
> Regardless of all these arguments, wouldn't it be great if Ubuntu made
> it easier for system administrators? A tool that makes it difficult to
> make mistakes would be a win for any user, whether they are a skilled
> system administrator or not. A system administrator can still make
> mistakes, and would benefit from a system that complains when this
> happens.
>   

Sorry, that is just not possible. At best you can have certain simple 
set configurations and a gui that will put those in place. Anything else 
will require a competent administrator.

> As a computer science student, I know about Internet security. You
> need a firewall, updated software, strong passwords, a secure
> connection, limited permissions. Yet, I would have a hard time setting
> up a mail server. That should not be hard to do for me. I should just
> be able to install a package, run a nice configuration tool from the
> administration menu, make sure it is sane (and be told if it isn't),
> and fire it up. It's not that complicated. Yet, whenever I have to do
> something that involves server software, suddenly it's like I travel
> back 10 years in time, with endless console sessions, reading man
> pages, searching the Internet, and a lot of trial and error.
>
>   


Why you get people to agree on a set configuration as a standard, then 
you can make a gui for just that. Anything else is way too complicated 
to be worth the effort to enable a clueless admin to setup.

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cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Dirk Hoeschen]

Hi all,

I am using Ubuntu since 3 Years. I would consider
myself as a advanced linux-user and professional software developer.

Just to check the new version, I migrated two 9.4 Systems to 9.10
and installed a Karmic Beta on a fresh system.

Now (3 days before the release) karmic seems to be unready.
Even if the system is stable, I found many bugs and inconsistent
issues.

On several systems there are error messages with timeouts.
"waiting for /disk/uuid/23wefsdfsdtgqweqrqwe" or so.
When the ugly white ubuntu logo disappears i get some normal
status messages and the the screen gets dark for 15 Seconds
until dark and unfriendly login screen appears. After all...
I have the imagination, that the boot process is not faster.

The user dialogs for several subsystems are not ready yet. For 
example... the old dialogs for setting detailed user rights or changing 
the welcome screen are not included.


On two systems with Nvidia cards, the hardware detection tells me
that no proprietary drivers are needed. Nvidia drivers must be
installed by hand.

The greatest mess is pulseausio. Usually I uninstall pulseaudio.
Otherwise I can not use mpd and flash crashes randomly.
In Karmic pulsaudio seems to be even more buggy.
Eample: I have a realtek onboard soundcard and an a USB headset.
Alsa seems to initialize both cards correctly.
But pulseaudio randomly detects sometimes only one card, both cards
or no card at all. Why don't you use alsa by default?

I really like to persuade people to use ubuntu. But as long
as it looks unready it will strengthen their opinion, that linux
is only for nerds. Pleas learn your lesson from the debian
community and release a new version only if its ready.

--
regards... Dirk


Dossestraße 6
10247 Berlin
Tel.: 030 39 20 56 21
Mobil. 0151 20 500 462
Fax: 030 39 20 56 22
Web: www.dirk-hoeschen.de
*

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

Steven Susbauer wrote:
>
> On Oct 25, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
>
>> Dotan Cohen wrote:
 For your information, Linux savvy companies tend to...

>>>
>>> Linux-savvy companies are not the issue here. GUI server tools will
>>> attract mom 'n pop small businesses as well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Mom and pop small businesses do not need a server. They just need a
>> file/print sharing tool like what you have on Mac OS X, an account with
>> a local isp and a router from that isp. There are plenty of small
>> enterprises dotted around Hong Kong that have ZERO it personnel and the
>> last thing they need is to try to run a server themselves. It is
>> impossible to make the server foolproof for such outfits.
>
> That tool is generally called a server. That Mac OS X tool is called 
> Samba, with a nice interface to configure it. I see no reason why they 
> should be forced to run Mac OS X to do this.

Please learn to read properly before making replies. I never said they 
should be forced to run Mac OS X.
Just because samba is a daemon does not necessarily mean that its used 
function is that of a server that requires administration. Sharing a 
folder/directory is available from Windows 95 onwards using share level 
access that required ZERO user/password administration. I would 
differentiate that as file sharing and not setting up a 'file server' 
which was what Ryan/the OP had in mind in the beginning along with a 
host of other goodies..

>
> People should have the choice to do what they want, even if you 
> disagree with it. Advocating for licenses to run a server is 
> preposterous, and goes completely against the Ubuntu philosophy in 
> general [1], which is not limited to just Ubuntu Desktop. Who are you 
> to control what a mom 'n pop small business does or does not do? 
> Should they be forced to hire a full time IT staff to run 
> oldtownrootbeer.com because you don't think they should have access to 
> a powerful yet easy to use system, because they might do bad things?

They are free to do what they want and I am free to firewall them 
anytime their server gets rooted. Given the astronomical cost that 
botnets bring upon the world economy, I am surprised that nobody has 
decided to regulate the system administrator trade. Ubuntu Domain 
Server, run by clueless moms and pops, the perfect control centre for 
botnets. You bet they should be forced to get competent IT support if 
they intend to connect anything to the Internet. It is not whether they 
might do bad things, it is to prevent their server from being used for 
criminal activity because they will have no clue what is going when the 
FBI bursts in to seize their server for evidence/investigation/whatever 
in their attempts to track down Internet public enemy no. 1.

>
> In all of this you have also forgotten that Ubuntu is used worldwide, 
> including places without much IT infrastructure, let alone IT training 
> in order to be an uber sysadmin.


I do not see what desktop deployments have to do with this thread.

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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Mohammed Bassit]

Basically just cause you are facing some (minor in my opinion) problems,
you want to stop the Karmic release 3 days before its due date ? Come
on !!!


> Hi all,
> 
> I am using Ubuntu since 3 Years. I would consider
> myself as a advanced linux-user and professional software developer.
> 
> Just to check the new version, I migrated two 9.4 Systems to 9.10
> and installed a Karmic Beta on a fresh system.


Beta software by definition do have bugs and issues. I have been using
the beta myself on my office desktop, and I didn't face any
showstoppers.


> 
> Now (3 days before the release) karmic seems to be unready.
> Even if the system is stable, I found many bugs and inconsistent
> issues.
> 
> On several systems there are error messages with timeouts.
> "waiting for /disk/uuid/23wefsdfsdtgqweqrqwe" or so.
> When the ugly white ubuntu logo disappears i get some normal
> status messages and the the screen gets dark for 15 Seconds
> until dark and unfriendly login screen appears. After all...
> I have the imagination, that the boot process is not faster.


Clearly you seem more unhappy with the new artwork, than concerned with
that bug. Nevertheless you can always file a bug report, and with a
little luck it could be fixed a little after the final release.


> 
> The user dialogs for several subsystems are not ready yet. For 
> example... the old dialogs for setting detailed user rights or changing 
> the welcome screen are not included.
> 

As far as I know, the new GDM made the old "welcome screen setting
dialog" obsolete. Eventually a new tool would be included in a future
release, or someone (why not yourself?) can make such tool and make it
available to the community.


> On two systems with Nvidia cards, the hardware detection tells me
> that no proprietary drivers are needed. Nvidia drivers must be
> installed by hand.


Both my laptop and desktop have Nvidia cards, and they are working
properly. Ubuntu offered me to install proprietary drivers, I did that
on the laptop but chose to use open source drivers on the desktop. So
again file a bug about your specific problem, clearly it's not a general
one.


> 
> The greatest mess is pulseausio. Usually I uninstall pulseaudio.
> Otherwise I can not use mpd and flash crashes randomly.
> In Karmic pulsaudio seems to be even more buggy.
> Eample: I have a realtek onboard soundcard and an a USB headset.
> Alsa seems to initialize both cards correctly.
> But pulseaudio randomly detects sometimes only one card, both cards
> or no card at all. Why don't you use alsa by default?
> 


Join the crowd complaining about Pulseaudio. The think is I really do
see a lot of improvement since pulseaudio was included by default in
Ubuntu. I agree there are some annoying glitches, but no showstoppers
nonetheless.


> I really like to persuade people to use ubuntu. But as long
> as it looks unready it will strengthen their opinion, that linux
> is only for nerds. Pleas learn your lesson from the debian
> community and release a new version only if its ready.
> 


You are free to use Debian !


Thanks,

-- 
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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Daniel Chen]

(Sorry for top-posting; bad MTA)

Have you filed any bugs WRT PA and mpd? AFAICT, those issues are integration
ones, not anything at fault in PA, and there are several workarounds
allowing a user to output to PA through mpd.

As for Adobe Flash, there is anecdotal "evidence" that nspluginwrapper is
causing issues. If you're on i386, try using adobe-flashplugin (from the
partner repository) instead of flashplugin-installer (you'd need to purge
this latter package). If you're on amd64, try using the native 64-bit alpha
refresh from Adobe's web site instead of flashplugin-installer.

Finally, without additional initialization information from PA, we can't
diagnose why your sound devices aren't being recognized by PA. Please see
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PulseAudio/Log .

Thanks again for helping improve Ubuntu!

-Dan

On Oct 26, 2009 7:08 AM, "Dirk Hoeschen"  wrote:

Hi all,

I am using Ubuntu since 3 Years. I would consider
myself as a advanced linux-user and professional software developer.

Just to check the new version, I migrated two 9.4 Systems to 9.10
and installed a Karmic Beta on a fresh system.

Now (3 days before the release) karmic seems to be unready.
Even if the system is stable, I found many bugs and inconsistent
issues.

On several systems there are error messages with timeouts.
"waiting for /disk/uuid/23wefsdfsdtgqweqrqwe" or so.
When the ugly white ubuntu logo disappears i get some normal
status messages and the the screen gets dark for 15 Seconds
until dark and unfriendly login screen appears. After all...
I have the imagination, that the boot process is not faster.

The user dialogs for several subsystems are not ready yet. For example...
the old dialogs for setting detailed user rights or changing the welcome
screen are not included.

On two systems with Nvidia cards, the hardware detection tells me
that no proprietary drivers are needed. Nvidia drivers must be
installed by hand.

The greatest mess is pulseausio. Usually I uninstall pulseaudio.
Otherwise I can not use mpd and flash crashes randomly.
In Karmic pulsaudio seems to be even more buggy.
Eample: I have a realtek onboard soundcard and an a USB headset.
Alsa seems to initialize both cards correctly.
But pulseaudio randomly detects sometimes only one card, both cards
or no card at all. Why don't you use alsa by default?

I really like to persuade people to use ubuntu. But as long
as it looks unready it will strengthen their opinion, that linux
is only for nerds. Pleas learn your lesson from the debian
community and release a new version only if its ready.

-- 
regards... Dirk


Dossestraße 6
10247 Berlin
Tel.: 030 39 20 56 21
Mobil. 0151 20 500 462
Fax: 030 39 20 56 22
Web: www.dirk-hoeschen.de
*


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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Andrea Gasparini]

H, 

> > The user dialogs for several subsystems are not ready yet. For 
> > example... the old dialogs for setting detailed user rights or
> > changing  the welcome screen are not included.
> > 
> 
> As far as I know, the new GDM made the old "welcome screen setting
> dialog" obsolete. Eventually a new tool would be included in a future
> release, or someone (why not yourself?) can make such tool and make it
> available to the community.
> 

Do you mean PolicyKit policy editor?? It goes away from PolicyKit upstream, 
Ubuntu didn't do anything about it: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PolicyKitOne#User_Experience
so, if you don't like it, you could scream against Fedora.

bye
-- 
-gaspa-
---
 https://launchpad.net/~gaspa -
-- HomePage: iogaspa.altervista.org ---
-Il lunedi'dell'arrampicatore: www.lunedi.org -

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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Markus Hitter]

Am 26.10.2009 um 12:08 schrieb Dirk Hoeschen:

> Now (3 days before the release) karmic seems to be unready.
> Even if the system is stable, I found many bugs and inconsistent
> issues.

Obviously, the team is totally overwhelmed by bugs. Look for example  
at bug #459067:



Introduced last week, this bug requires me to go to the keyboard  
manager after each reboot before I can make use of the keyboard. Yet  
is is considered as "Importance low", means, "likely never fixed  
intentionally".


All those regressions make me start to think about _why_ I use  
cutting edge Ubuntu. It's not for the perhaps improved audio stack,  
it's not for the no longer working keyboard, it is to get recent  
versions of high level applications like Abiword, Scribus, VNC, ...  
you name it.

Considering this, it's most likely I'd better go with keeping an  
older Ubuntu and getting those modern applications from independent  
sources, PPAs or manually installed packages. Even if this is totally  
against the idea of having release cycles first place, it looks to me  
like the path to the best bug/feature ratio of my overall system.


Markus

(currently installing qemu manually as kqemu support was dropped  
intentionally from the official packages)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Steven Susbauer wrote:

> 
> On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:12 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 
>> Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> Or proving the point that easy to use GUI configuration tools can
> actually help make the situation better, for example suggesting the
> user set a password for their SMTP server.

_requiring_.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Dotan Cohen wrote:

>> That tool is generally called a server. That Mac OS X tool is called
>> Samba, with a nice interface to configure it. I see no reason why they
>> should be forced to run Mac OS X to do this.
>>
> 
> I think that Chan was giving an example.
> 
> 
>> People should have the choice to do what they want, even if you disagree
>> with it. Advocating for licenses to run a server is preposterous, and
>> goes completely against the Ubuntu philosophy in general [1], which is
>> not limited to just Ubuntu Desktop.
> 
> So I suppose that lawyers should not be licensed? Doctors? Real estate
> agents? Everyone should have a choice to do whatever they want,
> complete anarchy?

You keep missing the main point. which is not whether or not people without 
knowledge _should_ be running servers, but that they _are_, will continue to 
be whether or not we support them, and can't be prevented from doing so.  
All of your arguments against providing the tools to support them are 
arguments in favour of allowing them to continue to use bad tools, to create 
badly configured servers, from Microsoft.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Dotan Cohen wrote:

>> And you thing that simple file sharing server based on SMB are
>> comparable to Mustang GT?
>>
> 
> No. But I think that running a public HTTP server is.

No way - everybody _and_ their monkey runs a public HTTP server today.  You 
can't expect that that will ever be done by professionals.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

John Moser wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Ryan Dwyer  wrote:
>> I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI is
>> better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and what
>> they're prepared to use?
> 
> This is an easy question.
> 
> First off, we need a Windows and Linux tool like Putty for easy X11
> forwarding over SSH.  The Windows version needs to bring an X server
> of its own (or at least have a fully proper MSI package that you can
> publish with it, to give a viable X server).  It could integrate with
> Cygwin/X as well or something.
> 
> I say "like putty" because the actual application interface is going
> to be different.  What you're going to want is a tool that connects
> across; discovers a specific set of applications; and gives one-click
> access to run them over a compressed X11 session. 

I don't follow why you would think an X server on Windows is required.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Dotan Cohen wrote:

>> I agree that all networks should be managed by an experienced
>> administrator, but unfortunately a lot of them aren't. We can't change
>> that. Many businesses just want something that works and is easy to
>> manage, even if there are "issues" such as no backups. The target
>> audience is the general public, and the general public isn't going to
>> know how to configure servers using a CLI. They want something simple
>> that gets the job done, and they're who we need to cater for.
>>
> 
> Then when these inexperienced "admins" screw up, who will be to blame?
> Ubuntu, naturally, fo not making ABC or XYZ intuitive, obvious, or
> easy.
> 
> Why not have a GUI program that performs brain surgery? That rebuilds
> Ford smallblocks? That gives legal advice? Some jobs require a
> professional, and making them "accessible" does nobody any good.

I completely disagree.  There's no theoretical reason why a computer program 
couldn't do any of the above.  "Professionals" are primarily required to 
protect professionals' jobs.  In practice, computers can't actually do any 
of those jobs _yet_, though it probably wouldn't be beyond current 
capability to have them rebuild engines or provide good legal advice (at 
least in any precedent-based legal system).  I certainly believe that UIs 
can be built that can do a better job of system and network administration 
than the average person currently doing those jobs, and it really doesn't 
matter how much you, or anybody else, thinks that those jobs _should_ be 
done by professionals - it isn't going to happen.  Right or wrong, companies 
don't believe in paying professional rates for administrative work.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dotan Cohen wrote on 24/10/09 13:25:
>...
> Why not have a GUI program that performs brain surgery? That rebuilds
> Ford smallblocks? That gives legal advice? Some jobs require a
> professional, and making them "accessible" does nobody any good.

The software that brain surgeons use is highly graphical.


If it was text-only, it would be much less effective, and brain surgeons
would therefore be less trustworthy, not more. It is not the difficulty
of the software they use that leads you to trust brain surgeons,
mechanics, or lawyers; it is their training, experience, and support staff.

You are trying to make server administrators trustworthy by making
server software artificially difficult to use. This strategy would work
only if the server software market was uncompetitive, because it is a
strategy that severely retards the usefulness of the software. A
graphical interface could do a much better job of presenting and
manipulating things like directory information trees, network topology,
and resource use over time, than a text-only presentation ever will.

- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le lundi 26 octobre 2009 à 14:07 +0100, Markus Hitter a écrit :
> requires me to go to the keyboard  
> manager after each reboot before I can make use of the keyboard. 

Hi,

The bug is low because it's the first ticket about the issue and is
rather due to local configuration than a bug which will be an issue on a
default installation or for most users

Sebastien Bacher


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> John Moser wrote:
>
>   
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Ryan Dwyer  wrote:
>> 
>>> I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI is
>>> better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and what
>>> they're prepared to use?
>>>   
>> This is an easy question.
>>
>> First off, we need a Windows and Linux tool like Putty for easy X11
>> forwarding over SSH.  The Windows version needs to bring an X server
>> of its own (or at least have a fully proper MSI package that you can
>> publish with it, to give a viable X server).  It could integrate with
>> Cygwin/X as well or something.
>>
>> I say "like putty" because the actual application interface is going
>> to be different.  What you're going to want is a tool that connects
>> across; discovers a specific set of applications; and gives one-click
>> access to run them over a compressed X11 session. 
>> 
>
> I don't follow why you would think an X server on Windows is required.
>   

Easy. Remote desktop for remote administration. Of course, I do not 
necessarily agree with using Xming on a Windows box. Maybe xrdp is the 
answer to that one or freenx

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

Caroline Ford wrote:
>
> On 25 Oct 2009, at 15:09, Dotan Cohen  wrote:
>
>>> Or puts them out of a job?
>>>
>>
>> Likely we are talking about a small business here, so the decision
>> maker might be the top of the organization's food chain. But it might
>> get him sued, and thus out of a business. If it is a sole
>> proprietorship, it might put him out of a house too.
>>
> I meant the sysadmins complaining about making system administration 
> easier, and possibly "deskilled".
>
> If you feed yourself through Linux system administration you have an 
> interest in it being inaccessible.
>
> Caroline

Hey, you know what. I think I like this idea. This will guarantee a 
fixed, non-flexible solution that will require the services of real 
system administrators to do whatever or troubleshoot in the event of a 
problem. In the end, the GUI will make some things inaccessible and I 
could setup a company and actually charge per incident instead of trying 
to convince mom and pop outfits to pay some monthly/yearly service 
charge and try to justify it when nothing seems to go wrong.

Please make sure you do not say anything about raid1/mirrored disks, 
backup and whatever during the installation process.

As for the initial ambitions of creating disk images, replacing Windows 
ADS servers and audit software, please remember not to mention that 
although there are no viruses for Linux, there is no guarantee of the 
Windows clients being protected, we do not currently have ADS support 
and you can forget about all the random software currently installed may 
or may not work with Wine if you intend to convert the workstations to 
Ubuntu.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[schultz . patrick]

Can you explain how the system becomes inflexible by adding a GUI tool?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Chan Chung Hang Christopher 
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:05:37 
To: Caroline Ford
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

Caroline Ford wrote:
>
> On 25 Oct 2009, at 15:09, Dotan Cohen  wrote:
>
>>> Or puts them out of a job?
>>>
>>
>> Likely we are talking about a small business here, so the decision
>> maker might be the top of the organization's food chain. But it might
>> get him sued, and thus out of a business. If it is a sole
>> proprietorship, it might put him out of a house too.
>>
> I meant the sysadmins complaining about making system administration 
> easier, and possibly "deskilled".
>
> If you feed yourself through Linux system administration you have an 
> interest in it being inaccessible.
>
> Caroline

Hey, you know what. I think I like this idea. This will guarantee a 
fixed, non-flexible solution that will require the services of real 
system administrators to do whatever or troubleshoot in the event of a 
problem. In the end, the GUI will make some things inaccessible and I 
could setup a company and actually charge per incident instead of trying 
to convince mom and pop outfits to pay some monthly/yearly service 
charge and try to justify it when nothing seems to go wrong.

Please make sure you do not say anything about raid1/mirrored disks, 
backup and whatever during the installation process.

As for the initial ambitions of creating disk images, replacing Windows 
ADS servers and audit software, please remember not to mention that 
although there are no viruses for Linux, there is no guarantee of the 
Windows clients being protected, we do not currently have ADS support 
and you can forget about all the random software currently installed may 
or may not work with Wine if you intend to convert the workstations to 
Ubuntu.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> John Moser wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Ryan Dwyer 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI
 is better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and
 what they're prepared to use?
   
>>> This is an easy question.
>>>
>>> First off, we need a Windows and Linux tool like Putty for easy X11
>>> forwarding over SSH.  The Windows version needs to bring an X server
>>> of its own (or at least have a fully proper MSI package that you can
>>> publish with it, to give a viable X server).  It could integrate with
>>> Cygwin/X as well or something.
>>>
>>> I say "like putty" because the actual application interface is going
>>> to be different.  What you're going to want is a tool that connects
>>> across; discovers a specific set of applications; and gives one-click
>>> access to run them over a compressed X11 session.
>>> 
>>
>> I don't follow why you would think an X server on Windows is required.
>>   
> 
> Easy. Remote desktop for remote administration. Of course, I do not
> necessarily agree with using Xming on a Windows box. Maybe xrdp is the
> answer to that one or freenx

For remote admin of what, though?  If you're going to remote admin both 
Windows and 'nix boxen, why wouldn't you be using your Linux desktop?  If 
you're remote administering Windows boxes, then RDP is the way to go.  I 
administer a heterogeneous environment, and I've never felt the need to add 
X to Windows.
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Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready

[Derek Broughton]

Markus Hitter wrote:

> 
> Am 26.10.2009 um 12:08 schrieb Dirk Hoeschen:
> 
>> Now (3 days before the release) karmic seems to be unready.
>> Even if the system is stable, I found many bugs and inconsistent
>> issues.
> 
> Obviously, the team is totally overwhelmed by bugs. Look for example
> at bug #459067:
> 
>  459067>
> 
> Introduced last week, this bug requires me to go to the keyboard
> manager after each reboot before I can make use of the keyboard. Yet
> is is considered as "Importance low", means, "likely never fixed
> intentionally".
> 
Means "likely never fixed, unless it can be shown to affect more than a 
handful of people _or_ you provide better information".  q.v. the Intel 
graphics bug which had a handful of people screaming that the 9.04 release 
had to be delayed, but affected only a tiny proportion of even the Intel 
users.  And was fixed only a month or so post-release.

> All those regressions make me start to think about _why_ I use
> cutting edge Ubuntu.

Me too.  Why _do_ you if you don't like bugs?  I still can't see any sign of 
what you call "all those regressions"/
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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[solaris manzur]

>
>   1. Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready (Markus Hitter)
>

I agree we should cancel it and deliver 9.12 in a week or so.. it is better
because it is the time and we still have bugs in kernel, when changing icon
set they are not well applied, ISO files are not well mounted, some icons
are lost from "main menu" which is actually a bug since canonical just
wanted to take icons off context menus and many many more...
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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[solaris manzur]

2009/10/26 solaris manzur 

>
>
>>   1. Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready (Markus Hitter)
>>
>
> and one more... notify-osd is losing performance... ms windows is horrible
> and I do not want to use it anymore but when they deliver a new version of
> their operating system they worry about details and they do not deliver it
> until they are completely sure it is working as it should
>
So... We have to be better and do not deliver a new version until we are
completely sure it is working perfect...
Imagine this: A person buy a new computer that comes with ubuntu
pre-installed.. (a DELL one) we are now closed to that to be very famous ...
and that person has problems like these ones I have just mentioned, that
should be horrible, we shouldn't deliver a new version until it is working
perfect because people are now putting their faith in ubuntu and canonical
that carry it
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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:16:31 -0500
solaris manzur  wrote:

> >
> >   1. Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready (Markus Hitter)
> >
> 
> I agree we should cancel it and deliver 9.12 in a week or so.. it is better
> because it is the time and we still have bugs in kernel, when changing icon
> set they are not well applied, ISO files are not well mounted, some icons
> are lost from "main menu" which is actually a bug since canonical just
> wanted to take icons off context menus and many many more...

Perhaps a little more time looking at how the release numbers are
actually used would be beneficial. 9.12 would really be released in
December of 2009, not a week or two from mow. 

Ubuntu tries real hard to maintain a 6-month release schedule. 9.10 is
released in the 10th month of 2009.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz 
Linux Registered User Number 425914  [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[Shentino]

Just curious here.

Apart from the obvious cases of failure to boot the CD and legal issues,
what are some examples of what would be considered a "showstopper" level bug
that would suspend/defer a release?
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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[George Farris]

On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 14:16 -0500, solaris manzur wrote:
> 
> 
>   1. Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready (Markus
> Hitter)
> 
> I agree we should cancel it and deliver 9.12 in a week or so.. it is
> better because it is the time and we still have bugs in kernel, when
> changing icon set they are not well applied, ISO files are not well
> mounted, some icons are lost from "main menu" which is actually a bug
> since canonical just wanted to take icons off context menus and many
> many more...

I also agree.  There are some major high level functions such as ISO
files that really need to be working well.  

For example I can't burn two copies of an ISO in a row, it doesn't
work.  

Totem doesn't always play a custom DVD, whereas VLC and Mplayer work
fine, maybe because there is no menu on it, not sure.  

Services has gone from System->Administration which after being there
for a few years is not good at best.  

Icons in Apps and Places but not System.  

Empathy not being able to accept a connection until one turns off
notifications.  

IMHO poor colours in GDM.  

Evolution displays a red circle with a slash through it for delete.  The
rest of the world knows a trash can icon.

All in all it just looks a little unpolished at the moment and the press
will probably pick up on it.

Now having said all this I want to give my heart felt thanks and
recognition to all the people that have worked hard to get Karmic to
where it is today.  It really is awesome, just needs to be left in the
oven a little while longer.

Cheers
George





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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[Jonathan Ernst]

Hello,

Le lundi 26 octobre 2009 à 13:45 -0700, George Farris a écrit :
[...] 
> 
> I also agree.  There are some major high level functions such as ISO
> files that really need to be working well.  
> 
> For example I can't burn two copies of an ISO in a row, it doesn't
> work.  
> 
> Totem doesn't always play a custom DVD, whereas VLC and Mplayer work
> fine, maybe because there is no menu on it, not sure.  
> 
> Services has gone from System->Administration which after being there
> for a few years is not good at best.  
> 
> Icons in Apps and Places but not System.  
> 
> Empathy not being able to accept a connection until one turns off
> notifications.  

Did you report all those bugs? If those bugs have already been reported
do you care to give their bug numbers?

> 
> IMHO poor colours in GDM.  
> 
> Evolution displays a red circle with a slash through it for delete.  The
> rest of the world knows a trash can icon.

Reported for you (as it annoyed me too):
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/461436

Complaining here doesn't do any good IMHO.

If you can't fix those bugs yourself, please report them in Launchpad so
they can be taken care of and show the links to these bugs when
discussing them in public so that interested parties (developers, users)
can work together to fix it and track them.

Best regards.






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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[George Farris]

On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 14:16 -0500, solaris manzur wrote:
> 
> 
>   1. Re: cancel the 9.10 release... it is not ready (Markus
> Hitter)
> 
> I agree we should cancel it and deliver 9.12 in a week or so.. it is
> better because it is the time and we still have bugs in kernel, when
> changing icon set they are not well applied, ISO files are not well
> mounted, some icons are lost from "main menu" which is actually a bug
> since canonical just wanted to take icons off context menus and many
> many more...


Oh right and also http://www.cbc.ca/video none of them play in Firefox.

If anyone knows how to debug this stuff I'd love to try, but really it
works with Firefox on Windows and Mac but not Linux, Fail.


Cheers
George






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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[George Farris]

On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 22:05 +0100, Jonathan Ernst wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Le lundi 26 octobre 2009 à 13:45 -0700, George Farris a écrit :
> [...] 
> > 
> > I also agree.  There are some major high level functions such as ISO
> > files that really need to be working well.  
> > 
> > For example I can't burn two copies of an ISO in a row, it doesn't
> > work.  
> > 
> > Totem doesn't always play a custom DVD, whereas VLC and Mplayer work
> > fine, maybe because there is no menu on it, not sure.  
> > 
> > Services has gone from System->Administration which after being there
> > for a few years is not good at best.  
> > 
> > Icons in Apps and Places but not System.  
> > 
> > Empathy not being able to accept a connection until one turns off
> > notifications.  
> 
> Did you report all those bugs? If those bugs have already been reported
> do you care to give their bug numbers?

Yes I have reported most of them.  And just to note I'm not really
complaining so much as pointing out that we are playing with the big
boys here and it needs to be right.  Linux desktop distributions have
gone too many years at being half cut, well more than half but...

We need to make things work, and while I know that the move from HAL has
caused problems it should be delayed if it isn't right.  There are too
many little, what the heck? issues currently.

Right out of the gate I've had new users say "umm I've got a
notification of a new buddy, how do I accept it?"  Thats an epic fail
folks because there is no way to accept it unless you go turn off
notifications.

I've also had people say "I can't make a second copy of this disk and
even though I have EJECT turned on it doesn't"

These are high profile everyday things that should work.  If I could fix
them I would but I'm not that way inclined so the best I can do is raise
the issues and file bug reports.


Cheers
George







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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Christopher Chan]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
>
>   
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> 
>>> John Moser wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
 On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Ryan Dwyer 
 wrote:
 
 
> I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI
> is better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and
> what they're prepared to use?
>   
>   
 This is an easy question.

 First off, we need a Windows and Linux tool like Putty for easy X11
 forwarding over SSH.  The Windows version needs to bring an X server
 of its own (or at least have a fully proper MSI package that you can
 publish with it, to give a viable X server).  It could integrate with
 Cygwin/X as well or something.

 I say "like putty" because the actual application interface is going
 to be different.  What you're going to want is a tool that connects
 across; discovers a specific set of applications; and gives one-click
 access to run them over a compressed X11 session.
 
 
>>> I don't follow why you would think an X server on Windows is required.
>>>   
>>>   
>> Easy. Remote desktop for remote administration. Of course, I do not
>> necessarily agree with using Xming on a Windows box. Maybe xrdp is the
>> answer to that one or freenx
>> 
>
> For remote admin of what, though?  If you're going to remote admin both 
> Windows and 'nix boxen, why wouldn't you be using your Linux desktop?  If 
> you're remote administering Windows boxes, then RDP is the way to go.  I 
> administer a heterogeneous environment, and I've never felt the need to add 
> X to Windows.
>   
Well, you see, they have this great idea of creating a server 
administration GUI tool for Linux and given that one of the first things 
the OP was hoping for (a replacement for Windows ADS servers) it would 
appear that the workstations will primarily be Windows.

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Re: Compiz zoom scary, enabled by default in Karmic RC

[Jan Claeys]

Op zondag 25-10-2009 om 02:20 uur [tijdzone -0400], schreef Joe
Zimmerman:
> I just recently installed Karmic RC, and happened to inadvertently
> press Super+Button2 

You mean button 3 (the middle button is the "third" button as it was
added to mice after the main (left) button and the right button).

I think the Super+Scrollwheel is okay (and more discovarable), but maybe
the Super+MiddleClick isn't as useful?


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Re: artwork

[Jan Claeys]

Op zondag 25-10-2009 om 20:55 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Shentino:
> I didn't notice the artwork problem myself until after that date, as
> I'm not normally one to jump straight on the development version.
> Having only one box and not enough beef to run a VM kinda makes me
> beta shy. 

About once a day a live CD is built, so you don't need to use a VM or
install an unstable system to test...?  Otherwise, maybe a small
partition with the development version might help too?

Mind you, it's not an obligation, but the developers (taken broadly,
everybody working on Ubuntu, including artists, etc.) can only adapt to
the response they get in time to change something.


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Jan Claeys]

Op vrijdag 23-10-2009 om 13:03 uur [tijdzone +1030], schreef Ryan Dwyer:
> BTW: GUI tools shouldn't run on a server, but on the admin's
> (or
> pseudo-admin's) desktop.  Using a secure connection to the
> server, of
> course.

> I take it no one has any issues with web based GUI tools?

That's one obvious way to do it, although real GUI tools (if designed
well) can offer better usability than WebUI tools.


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RE: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Jan Claeys]

Op vrijdag 23-10-2009 om 11:57 uur [tijdzone -0600], schreef Kevin
Fries:
> I mentioned this the other day, and other than a few people making off
> line comments indicating that they had never heard of the product, my
> suggestion of GOsa got completely ignored.

Maybe it needs better documentation (howtos etc.) & promotion?  ;-)

And I mean howtos that also explain how to integrate it with all the
other stuff.

Or maybe those exist, but nobody knows them?  Then it needs better
marketing... ;)


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Christopher Chan]

Jan Claeys wrote:
> Op vrijdag 23-10-2009 om 11:57 uur [tijdzone -0600], schreef Kevin
> Fries:
>   
>> I mentioned this the other day, and other than a few people making off
>> line comments indicating that they had never heard of the product, my
>> suggestion of GOsa got completely ignored.
>> 
>
> Maybe it needs better documentation (howtos etc.) & promotion?  ;-)
>
> And I mean howtos that also explain how to integrate it with all the
> other stuff.
>
> Or maybe those exist, but nobody knows them?  Then it needs better
> marketing... ;)
>
>   


What it really needs is people agreeing to use that as a standard.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Christopher Chan]

schultz.patr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Can you explain how the system becomes inflexible by adding a GUI tool?
>   

Well, the whole premise for the tool was apparently to enable non-admins 
to administer a server. Are you going to give a whole list of options 
that they know nothing about?

As for those in the know, feel free to create a tool for the myriad 
possible configurations out there.

> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chan Chung Hang Christopher 
> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:05:37 
> To: Caroline Ford
> Cc: 
> ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
>
> Caroline Ford wrote:
>   
>> On 25 Oct 2009, at 15:09, Dotan Cohen  wrote:
>>
>> 
 Or puts them out of a job?

 
>>> Likely we are talking about a small business here, so the decision
>>> maker might be the top of the organization's food chain. But it might
>>> get him sued, and thus out of a business. If it is a sole
>>> proprietorship, it might put him out of a house too.
>>>
>>>   
>> I meant the sysadmins complaining about making system administration 
>> easier, and possibly "deskilled".
>>
>> If you feed yourself through Linux system administration you have an 
>> interest in it being inaccessible.
>>
>> Caroline
>> 
>
> Hey, you know what. I think I like this idea. This will guarantee a 
> fixed, non-flexible solution that will require the services of real 
> system administrators to do whatever or troubleshoot in the event of a 
> problem. In the end, the GUI will make some things inaccessible and I 
> could setup a company and actually charge per incident instead of trying 
> to convince mom and pop outfits to pay some monthly/yearly service 
> charge and try to justify it when nothing seems to go wrong.
>
> Please make sure you do not say anything about raid1/mirrored disks, 
> backup and whatever during the installation process.
>
> As for the initial ambitions of creating disk images, replacing Windows 
> ADS servers and audit software, please remember not to mention that 
> although there are no viruses for Linux, there is no guarantee of the 
> Windows clients being protected, we do not currently have ADS support 
> and you can forget about all the random software currently installed may 
> or may not work with Wine if you intend to convert the workstations to 
> Ubuntu.
>
>   


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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 54

[Jan Claeys]

Op maandag 26-10-2009 om 14:36 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef George
Farris:
> Oh right and also http://www.cbc.ca/video none of them play in
> Firefox.
> 
> If anyone knows how to debug this stuff I'd love to try, but really it
> works with Firefox on Windows and Mac but not Linux, Fail. 

Well, I got a "We're sorry the video you've selected cannot be streamed
outside of Canada" movie, so it seems to work on linux too...   ;-)



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