Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

> On Feb 21, 2017, at 9:28 AM, Dave Curtis  wrote:
> 
> Hi, so for my first post to the list I am going to ask a somewhat lame 
> question.  Apologies if this is not the right list -- clues welcome.

This is totally the right list.  All discussion of Twisted is welcome!

> So my problem is that while my protocol stack spins up very nicely and 
> trivially easy using the twistd daemon, the standard python3-twisted package 
> for 14.04 is wy behind and doesn't include twistd (!), and I haven't 
> found a good backport.  I'd also like to avoid doing things that make life 
> hard for DevOps, such as pip3 installing and risking a package manager fight.

The general solution to this problem is "don't use the system Python 
environment to deploy your applications".

This is what virtualenv is for.

> So some options:
> - Is there a reliable backport of the python3-twisted package for 14.04?  
> Google is failing me on that one.
> [...]
> - Perhaps I should create my own backport for Ubuntu 14.04 of the current 
> python3-twisted .deb.  (This is probably not the right list to ask, but I'm 
> happy to dereference a pointer.)

Both of these options are bad.  Installing or creating a backport will break 
any system tools that depend on the python3-twisted package.  This is better 
than `sudo pip3 install`, but only a little.

> - All I need is the most basic twistd functionality.  Perhaps I should spin 
> up my own by snarfing the code out of the twisted source repo.  I can package 
> this with my stuff temporarily and get on with life.  Clues to the relevant 
> parts of the repo welcome, I haven't poked around much in Twisted sources so 
> need a road map.

If you have the ability to ship parts of the Twisted stack, there's a tool that 
can automate the "snarfing": pip :-).

> This is a short-term problem for me, we are transitioning to 16.04 soon, but 
> the process is driven by other parts of the software stack. So I don't want 
> to over-invest.  I'm looking for a reasonable band-aid.

16.04 will also be out of date.

I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and 
application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you want to 
use the system Python environment?  Had you just not considered the option of 
virtual environments?

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[steven meiers]

i could be totally wrong, and please correct me if i am, but try this:

target: this will give you a current twisted / python installation and
keep the packages seperate from the system ones



# 1. install a package called virtualenv and pip on your system
apt install virtualenv pip

# 2. create a directory for your project, if you dont have one already,
#to keep it seperate from other code
mkdir yourproject

# 3. create a virtualenv for your project, -p sets the python version
#to use and "venv" is just the directory virtualenv installs the
#python environment to
virtualenv -p /usr/bin/python3 venv


# 4. activate that environment (your command prompt will
#change to:  (venv)... 
source venv/bin/activate


# 5. install twisted (while still being in the same terminal window
#and directory with your activated virtual environment
pip install twisted


now you can code as usuall and run your code with python mycode.py, try
python --version


# 6. if you want to use trial for testing run:
hash -r

#to update the path settings, because trial is installed by the system
twisted package as well and without the hash -r your env will still
find the system trial first





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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 11:12, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:


I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and
application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you
/want/ to use the system Python environment?  Had you just not
considered the option of virtual environments?


Awesome though it is, virtualenv can be very tedious if you need to 
install hundreds of megabytes of compiler and -devel packages. System 
packages are attractive precisely because you can avoid this.


I've had to do all sorts of tedious things with containers where I spin 
up a temporary container to build a bunch of .whl files, then actually 
install them in the final container - all to avoid bloating the 
container image with the build tools.


It's a real shame that binary wheels on Linux/PyPI aren't a thing. I 
understand the reasons why, but TBH it substantially reduces the value 
of the Python ecosystem for me.


Go is looking like a more and more attractive competitor to Python, 
frankly, having sidestepped this problem entirely.


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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Hynek Schlawack]

>> I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and
>> application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you
>> /want/ to use the system Python environment?  Had you just not
>> considered the option of virtual environments?
> Awesome though it is, virtualenv can be very tedious if you need to install 
> hundreds of megabytes of compiler and -devel packages. System packages are 
> attractive precisely because you can avoid this.

That’s why you should use a build server and not ship build environments.

> I've had to do all sorts of tedious things with containers where I spin up a 
> temporary container to build a bunch of .whl files, then actually install 
> them in the final container - all to avoid bloating the container image with 
> the build tools.

I don’t see how that’s tedious since a compute does that for me.  Although I 
don’t see any value at wheeling them (and some packages cannot be wheeled); my 
CI builds a venv and puts it into a container.  There’s nothing tedious about 
it at all.

> It's a real shame that binary wheels on Linux/PyPI aren't a thing.

This is incorrect.
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Jean-Paul Calderone]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Phil Mayers 
wrote:

> On 22/02/17 11:12, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:
>
> I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and
>> application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you
>> /want/ to use the system Python environment?  Had you just not
>> considered the option of virtual environments?
>>
>
> Awesome though it is, virtualenv can be very tedious if you need to
> install hundreds of megabytes of compiler and -devel packages. System
> packages are attractive precisely because you can avoid this.
>

I guess this is a big part of the motivation for Twisted itself to shed its
C extensions - to avoid 100% of these extra dependencies.  And presumably
also a big part of the motivation behind the development of support for
distributable binary wheels for Linux (which seems to have largely
succeeded at this point, though their use is not as widespread as one would
hope).


>
> I've had to do all sorts of tedious things with containers where I spin up
> a temporary container to build a bunch of .whl files, then actually install
> them in the final container - all to avoid bloating the container image
> with the build tools.
>
>
And I've been meaning to really dig in to the Nix toolchain for image
creation.  That seems like another thing that should be more widely used
(but it's hard to beat the "batteries included" tools Docker has, even if
those tools are awful).


> It's a real shame that binary wheels on Linux/PyPI aren't a thing. I
> understand the reasons why, but TBH it substantially reduces the value of
> the Python ecosystem for me.
>
>
Ah!  They are now, maybe you haven't seen them?

Check out https://github.com/pypa/manylinux and
https://github.com/pypa/python-manylinux-demo

Go is looking like a more and more attractive competitor to Python,
> frankly, having sidestepped this problem entirely.
>
>
A lot of people seem to be thinking that way.  *Personally*, with my
experience with Go (about five months solid at previous employer), I
wouldn't go anywhere near that stack.  There are plenty of *other *things
with appealing features that Python lacks which would seem to make a better
move. :)

But check out the story for binary wheels.  The state of things in Python
may not be *quite* as bad as you think.

Jean-Paul
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Steve Waterbury]

On 02/22/2017 07:08 AM, Phil Mayers wrote:

On 22/02/17 11:12, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:


I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and
application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you
/want/ to use the system Python environment?  Had you just not
considered the option of virtual environments?


Awesome though it is, virtualenv can be very tedious if you need to
install hundreds of megabytes of compiler and -devel packages. System
packages are attractive precisely because you can avoid this.


Have you considered the 'conda' package manager?
https://conda.io/docs/index.html

If not, and for the benefit of others (I'm amazed it's not
mentioned on this list) here is my conda rant:

TL;DR:  use conda.

IMO, conda is superior to pip/wheels.  The Python packaging
orthodoxy's story is "oh, yes, conda -- that solves a different
problem ..." which seems disingenuous to me.  Conda
was originally created by Continuum Analytics to solve the
Numpy/SciPy packaging problem(s), which it has done with
brilliant success.

Conda has its own kind of packages, but they are relatively
easy to create (I can do it, proving that anyone can ;)
both for your own packages and for PyPI packages -- see:
https://conda.io/docs/build_tutorials/pkgs.html

Conda is a system-level package manager in the sense that it
can install any package, including Python itself, and
creates its own type of 'virtual environments' with their
own Python versions (which it will install).  Conda does
a great job of keeping non-Python libraries that Python
packages depend on isolated from system libraries.  If
the version of a Python package you want to use depends
on a later version of a library that exists on your
system, conda will install the required version of the
library in the virtual environment, keeping it separate
from other versions of that library on your system.

The latest version of Twisted is available from the main
conda package repository and is well supported.  I am
developing an application with many dependencies, including
Twisted, PyQt5, pythonOCC (a massive python-wrapped C++ 3D
CAD library), and many scientific libraries, and conda is
the only Python packaging and distribution technology that
can support my app -- I would not even begin to attempt it
using pip.

I've also used conda to manage large Django applications.
After I showed conda to my sysadmins at work, they jumped
on it and now use it for all Python installations on our
servers.  They will never have to compile Python again!

I do all my development on an Ubuntu 14.04 laptop and use
conda for everything Python on my machine.

Cheers,
Steve

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Dave Curtis]

> 
>> So my problem is that while my protocol stack spins up very nicely and 
>> trivially easy using the twistd daemon, the standard python3-twisted package 
>> for 14.04 is wy behind and doesn't include twistd (!), and I haven't 
>> found a good backport.  I'd also like to avoid doing things that make life 
>> hard for DevOps, such as pip3 installing and risking a package manager fight.
> 
> The general solution to this problem is "don't use the system Python 
> environment to deploy your applications".
> 
> This is what virtualenv is for.
> 

Yes, well, the standard practice around here is to wrap up deliverables in a 
.deb so that the DevOps tools can do automated deploys.  I suppose it is 
possible to wrap up a venv in a .deb, but I’ve never done looked into it. 
Pointers welcome.

>> So some options:
>> - Is there a reliable backport of the python3-twisted package for 14.04?  
>> Google is failing me on that one.
>> [...]
>> - Perhaps I should create my own backport for Ubuntu 14.04 of the current 
>> python3-twisted .deb.  (This is probably not the right list to ask, but I'm 
>> happy to dereference a pointer.)
> 
> Both of these options are bad.  Installing or creating a backport will break 
> any system tools that depend on the python3-twisted package.  This is better 
> than `sudo pip3 install`, but only a little.
> 
>> - All I need is the most basic twistd functionality.  Perhaps I should spin 
>> up my own by snarfing the code out of the twisted source repo.  I can 
>> package this with my stuff temporarily and get on with life.  Clues to the 
>> relevant parts of the repo welcome, I haven't poked around much in Twisted 
>> sources so need a road map.
> 
> If you have the ability to ship parts of the Twisted stack, there's a tool 
> that can automate the "snarfing": pip :-).
> 
>> This is a short-term problem for me, we are transitioning to 16.04 soon, but 
>> the process is driven by other parts of the software stack. So I don't want 
>> to over-invest.  I'm looking for a reasonable band-aid.
> 
> 16.04 will also be out of date.

So… If you would like to dive into reasons… we do robots.  We use ROS, the 
Robot Operating System.  LTS versions of ROS are tied to LTS versions of 
Ubuntu.  Transitioning from one LTS version of ROS to another is, as they say, 
“non-trivial”.  Being on a stale version of Ubuntu is part of the price for 
using ROS, because ROS just can’t move that fast.  No one likes it.  A lot of 
people (in many ROS-based companies, and the OSRF) are working to improve the 
situation.  That doesn’t help me this week.  Now, why are the DevOps people 
here so conservative?  Because doing a remote update on a robot in the field, 
and having it fail, has two impacts: 1) we stop billing the customer until the 
robot is running again, and 2) we put someone on an airplane to make the robot 
run again.  

> 
> I'm tempted to launch into a diatribe about namespacing, containers, and 
> application isolation generally, but before I do - why is it that you want to 
> use the system Python environment?  Had you just not considered the option of 
> virtual environments?

Legitimate questions.  Fitting into the existing deployment flow, and ummm… can 
I wrap a venv in a .deb? ‘Cuz that would be cool.

Another poster mentioned Anaconda…. I’m not a huge fan.  I am using it 
extensively as part of the Udacity self-driving car class, and I will admit 
that it would be nearly impossible for Udacity to deploy the project 
environment any other way.  But I see Anaconda as a very heavy-weight solution 
for projects requiring a huge infrastructure, and my problem is no where near 
large enough that the benefits justifies the cost.  A simple venv is more in 
line.

> 
> -glyph
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 12:49, Hynek Schlawack wrote:


That’s why you should use a build server and not ship build
environments.


Which we do.


I don’t see how that’s tedious since a compute does that for me.
Although I don’t see any value at wheeling them (and some packages
cannot be wheeled); my CI builds a venv and puts it into a container.
There’s nothing tedious about it at all.


I find the idea of running throwaway environments to generate a big blob 
of tarball'd python+libs, then copying said tarball to actual 
containers, a rather retrograde step by comparison with established 
package/build infrastructure tools.



It's a real shame that binary wheels on Linux/PyPI aren't a thing.


This is incorrect


Apparently so. The info JP provided was very useful.

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 13:06, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:


Ah!  They are now, maybe you haven't seen them?

Check out https://github.com/pypa/manylinux and
https://github.com/pypa/python-manylinux-demo


I had not seen this. Thanks, this looks like a big leap forward.


A lot of people seem to be thinking that way.  /Personally/, with my
experience with Go (about five months solid at previous employer), I
wouldn't go anywhere near that stack.  There are plenty of
/other /things with appealing features that Python lacks which would
seem to make a better move. :)


Very possibly!

Go as a language leaves me cold, and there are downsides to the 
one-big-binary approach. But it's undeniably easy to deploy in a 
container, and the concurrency is very attractive.



But check out the story for binary wheels.  The state of things in
Python may not be /quite/ as bad as you think.


Indeed, it does look like a promising improvement.

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 15:00, Steve Waterbury wrote:


Have you considered the 'conda' package manager?


I've never come across it. It looks too big for me to give a quick 
opinion on, but I'll bear it in mind. Thanks for the pointer.


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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Steve Waterbury]

On 02/22/2017 12:23 PM, Phil Mayers wrote:

On 22/02/17 15:00, Steve Waterbury wrote:


Have you considered the 'conda' package manager?


I've never come across it. It looks too big for me to give a quick
opinion on, but I'll bear it in mind. Thanks for the pointer.


"Anaconda" is huge; conda is not.  You can get conda
by installing "Miniconda":

https://conda.io/miniconda.html

The 64-bit bash Miniconda installer for Linux, for example, is
about 28 MB, and includes just Python (either 2 or 3) with
conda and its dependencies, and includes pip in case you want
to use a package that is not yet available in the conda
package channels -- 'pip install' works in a conda environment.

(The only reason to install Anaconda, which includes over 100
scientific Python packages, is if you are developing an app
that requires a lot of Numpy or SciPy libraries.)

Steve

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Hynek Schlawack]

>>> So my problem is that while my protocol stack spins up very nicely and 
>>> trivially easy using the twistd daemon, the standard python3-twisted 
>>> package for 14.04 is wy behind and doesn't include twistd (!), and I 
>>> haven't found a good backport.  I'd also like to avoid doing things that 
>>> make life hard for DevOps, such as pip3 installing and risking a package 
>>> manager fight.
>> 
>> The general solution to this problem is "don't use the system Python 
>> environment to deploy your applications".
>> 
>> This is what virtualenv is for.
> 
> Yes, well, the standard practice around here is to wrap up deliverables in a 
> .deb so that the DevOps tools can do automated deploys.  I suppose it is 
> possible to wrap up a venv in a .deb, but I’ve never done looked into it. 
> Pointers welcome.

https://github.com/spotify/dh-virtualenv 
 and 
https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deployment-with-native-packages/ 
 come to 
mind.

N.B. the article is by me and I’m currently migrating to Docker/Nomad.  But it 
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Hynek Schlawack]

>> I don’t see how that’s tedious since a compute does that for me.
>> Although I don’t see any value at wheeling them (and some packages
>> cannot be wheeled); my CI builds a venv and puts it into a container.
>> There’s nothing tedious about it at all.
> I find the idea of running throwaway environments to generate a big blob of 
> tarball'd python+libs, then copying said tarball to actual containers, a 
> rather retrograde step by comparison with established package/build 
> infrastructure tools.

I have to disagree here:  I don’t want build tools of any kind in my final 
containers therefore I build my artifacts separately no matter what language.  
Of course you can just build the venv on your build server without wheeling up 
a temporary container and then package it using Docker or DEB or whatever.  You 
should be separating building and running anyway so Python – as much as I’d 
like Go-style single binaries too – is in no way special here.  The nice thing 
about temporary containers though is that I can do all of that on my Mac.

—h
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Removing support for old Python 3 versions

[Jeffrey Ollie]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 AM, Hynek Schlawack  wrote:

>
> 3.3 should die immediately.  3.4 should follow ASAP.only the latest two
> or so are worth supporting.
>

Debian Jessie (which also means Raspbian Jessie, which is my primary
concern) uses Python 3.4, so I would hope that Python 3.4 support in
Twisted would not be dropped for a while.

-- 
Jeff Ollie
The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 17:42, Hynek Schlawack wrote:


I have to disagree here:  I don’t want build tools of any kind in my
final containers therefore I build my artifacts separately no matter
what language.  Of course you can just build the venv on your build


Agreed, 100%. Apologies if I gave you the impression I was advocating 
otherwise.



server without wheeling up a temporary container and then package it
using Docker or DEB or whatever.  You should be separating building
and running anyway so Python – as much as I’d like Go-style single
binaries too – is in no way special here.  The nice thing about
temporary containers though is that I can do all of that on my Mac.


I agree that you need to separate building and installation, and I've 
got no particular beef with using a container, chroot, throwaway VM or 
whatever works for people in doing the build phase.


(What people do with the resultant build output - and in particular 
whether there is a lot of ignoring of the hard-learned lessons of system 
package managers going on now - I will not comment on ;o)


What I was trying to say - badly, apparently - was that the system 
python *could* be attractive to someone because many dependencies may 
exist in the OS package list in suitable form, but conversely may not 
exist in PyPI in binary form for Linux.


As a very simple example: if you have a traditional (non-container) 
Linux system hosting a Python application in a virtualenv, and you 
deploy a Python app to a virtualenv e.g. using Puppet or Ansible, you 
either need to:


1. Use no C extensions
2. Hope there's a manylinux1 binary wheel
3. Use the OS package and --system-site-packages
4. Compile the C extensions and make them available to pip

#2 seems useful now that I know about it but - correct me if I'm wrong - 
the manylinux1 permitted C dependencies are super-tiny, and would not 
permit e.g. cryptography or psycopg2?


#4 is what you are advocating for I believe? But can we agree that for 
smaller projects, that might seem like a lot of repeated work if the 
package is already available in the OS repos?


Wondering out loud, I guess it would be possible for OS-compiled python 
extensions to be somehow virtualenv or relocation-compatible. One could 
envisage something like:


virtualenv t
. t/bin/activate
pip syspkg-install python-psycopg2

...and this going off and grabbing the OS-provided dependency of that 
name, extracting it, and deploying it into the virtualenv, rather than 
the system Python.


There are doubtless all sorts of reasons that is not practical.

Anyway, to be clear - I'm not advocating using the system Python. I'm 
trying to explain why, based on the efforts we expend locally, it could 
seem attractive to smaller sites.


Cheers,
Phil

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 17:35, Steve Waterbury wrote:

On 02/22/2017 12:23 PM, Phil Mayers wrote:

On 22/02/17 15:00, Steve Waterbury wrote:


Have you considered the 'conda' package manager?


I've never come across it. It looks too big for me to give a quick
opinion on, but I'll bear it in mind. Thanks for the pointer.


"Anaconda" is huge; conda is not.  You can get conda


I was referring to scope as opposed to size in bytes, but it's entirely 
possible I've misunderstood how it works.


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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Cory Benfield]

> On 22 Feb 2017, at 18:16, Phil Mayers  wrote:
> 
> #2 seems useful now that I know about it but - correct me if I'm wrong - the 
> manylinux1 permitted C dependencies are super-tiny, and would not permit e.g. 
> cryptography or psycopg2?

Depends.

The permitted C dependencies *for dynamic linking* are tiny, sure. But those 
libraries may statically link as they please. The likely scenario for most such 
packages is that they statically link whatever they need. This is the approach 
taken by some that I ship.

Cory


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Re: [Twisted-Python] Removing support for old Python 3 versions

[Amber Brown]

Debian 9 (Stretch) is in final freeze and will become the new stable
release very soon (a month or so?). By the time we drop 3.4 support,
Stretch will be current stable, so my recommendation would be to upgrade to
Stretch when it comes available, and use the Python 3.5 it ships with.
Alternatively, you could install 3.6 through pyenv or some other source on
Jessie.

- Amber

On 23 Feb 2017 4:50 AM, "Jeffrey Ollie"  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 AM, Hynek Schlawack  wrote:
>
>>
>> 3.3 should die immediately.  3.4 should follow ASAP.only the latest two
>> or so are worth supporting.
>>
>
> Debian Jessie (which also means Raspbian Jessie, which is my primary
> concern) uses Python 3.4, so I would hope that Python 3.4 support in
> Twisted would not be dropped for a while.
>
> --
> Jeff Ollie
> The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
>
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Re: [Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Phil Mayers]

On 22/02/17 20:59, Cory Benfield wrote:


The permitted C dependencies *for dynamic linking* are tiny, sure.
But those libraries may statically link as they please. The likely
scenario for most such packages is that they statically link whatever
they need. This is the approach taken by some that I ship.


Excellent point, I hadn't considered that.

Tangentially I see there's also no-manylinux and associated github/pip 
issues w.r.t. people who *do* want to build local binary wheels on a 
local PyPI server...


All in all, not a simple area.

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Re: [Twisted-Python] Removing support for old Python 3 versions

[Tom Most]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Amber Brown 
wrote:

> As such, I would like to remove support for these Python versions. Using
> recent statistics (https://langui.sh/2016/12/09/data-driven-decisions/)
> we can infer that Python 3.3 is on the whole uncommon, despite it being the
> default Python 3 for Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. We can further infer that adoption
> of new major versions of Python 3 (Python 3.5 was barely a year old by the
> time of these stats and yet dwarfed 3.4) is rapid, and so it seems only the
> latest two or so are worth supporting.
>

The default in Ubuntu 14.04 is actually Python 3.4.  (12.04 shipped with
3.2, and 16.04 has 3.5.)

Due to this, I am writing new Twisted code which targets 2.7 + 3.4 right
now.  I'm not opposed to deprecating Python 3.4, though. Ubuntu 14.04 ships
with a version of Python 2.7 that lacks SNI, so I want to shift to 16.04
ASAP anyway.
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