[Tagging] opening_hours extension: combined time range with open end as 18:00-22:00+

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi everyone

I would like to have some level of clarity about tagging a time range directly
followed by an open end time.

So I started a voting here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#Voting_addon_18:00-22:00.2B

I probably did not correctly follow the process for Proposals. I am sorry for
that. If a longer time range for voting is usual or something please adopted it.

The reason for this voting is my ongoing development around the tag 
opening_hours.

Tool for evaluation:
http://robin.de.marissa.hostorama.ch/osm/opening_hours.js/demo.html
Map:
http://robin.de.marissa.hostorama.ch/osm/opening_hours_map/opening_hours_map.html

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open end fixed time extension (was: Re: opening_hours extension: combined time range with open end as 18:00-22:00+)

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hello again

Thank you very much for your answer (also thanks to Eckhart).

I did what you suggested and wrote a proposal page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_end_fixed_time_extension

With this Email I open the request for comments phase. So lets discuses this
properly before we vote about it :)

On 28.11.2013 15:03, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Hi Robin,
> 
> Thank you for your efforts.
> 
> Could you give some more information on this proposal? In particular,
> what kind of POI would use this? How would you expect software for
> example (OsmAND) to use it? Have you discussed this with entities that
> currently support opening_hours? Is the scheme backwards compatible,
> for example, how would old OsmAND versions behave with the new scheme?
> 
> I agree with the others that following the proposal process would have
> been clearer.
> 
> -- Matthijs
> 
> On 25 November 2013 20:22, Robin `ypid` Schneider  wrote:
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I would like to have some level of clarity about tagging a time range 
>> directly
>> followed by an open end time.
>>
>> So I started a voting here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#Voting_addon_18:00-22:00.2B
>>
>> I probably did not correctly follow the process for Proposals. I am sorry for
>> that. If a longer time range for voting is usual or something please adopted 
>> it.
>>
>> The reason for this voting is my ongoing development around the tag 
>> opening_hours.
>>
>> Tool for evaluation:
>> http://robin.de.marissa.hostorama.ch/osm/opening_hours.js/demo.html
>> Map:
>> http://robin.de.marissa.hostorama.ch/osm/opening_hours_map/opening_hours_map.html
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - opening hours open end fixed time extension

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi all

With this mail I open the voting phase. The proposal page is located here: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_end_fixed_time_extension


I would like to hear your opinions about this extension.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - opening hours open end fixed time extension

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Sure. I have no problem with that :) The voting end is now set to 2014-01-20.

On 12/23/2013 04:32 PM, Martin Vonwald wrote:

Maybe you would like to give just one or two weeks more time for voting
because of the christmas holidays.

2013/12/23 Robin `ypid` Schneider 


Hi all

With this mail I open the voting phase. The proposal page is located here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
opening_hours_open_end_fixed_time_extension

I would like to hear your opinions about this extension.


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Good evening

I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It is
about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing time).
So I created a short proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until

Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours holiday select

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Good evening again

Another thing I would like to discuss in the opening_hours syntax is about
selecting single holidays (PH and SH).

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_holiday_select

Please leave your comments at the discussion page.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 24.02.2014 22:13, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an opening
> time. Can you provide some examples?
I can remember one facility (I think it was an restaurant) which used such
opening hours on there homepage. Examples will follow.

> 
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
> 
>> Good evening
>>
>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It
>> is
>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing
>> time).
>> So I created a short proposal:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 10:21, SomeoneElse wrote:
> Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
>> So I created a short proposal:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
> In a related point, we need to be careful that when trying to translate 
> all of the data in opening_hours into something that a computer can 
> understand that information isn't lost.  "Breakfast until 11am" usually 
> makes perfect sense to a human in the context of the rest of the tags on 
> an item.
You are right. That is the point of my proposal. The syntax should be as close
to the real world as possible. So my question is if we should just invent a
starting time (which should then be the earliest possible opening time) and
specify a comment (state unknown) or if the software which evaluates the
opening_hours should do that. I am really not sure about that and would go
either way but I want to discuss this first.

In some cases you can complete the opening_hours for the kitchen with the
opening_hours of the facility. I had this case yesterday in which the opening
hours where specified completely but the starting time for the kitchen was
basically a reference to the starting time of the facility.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/700957664

In this case the thing I wrote here
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#very_complex_opening_hours)
might come in handy to still prevent the original meaning.

> As another example, this pub node:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1479235861/history
> 
> had opening hours of "12:00-late" changed to "12:00+".  In context (a 
> pub in an old English town centre) "12:00-late" carries meaning that 
> "12:00+" does not, despite it confirming to some rules artificially 
> imposed by https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js .
Well I guess that I am responsible for both of these issues. The problem with
"12:00-late" is that it is not valid syntax and thous can not evaluated by
software. The "12:00+" is evaluated by opening_hours.js as "12:00-24:00" which
is probably not long enough in this case. But it does come somewhere close to
reality. I suggest using a comment to change the meaning of this open end or
suggesting to extend the interpretation of open end.

I saw this construct multiple times and added an input tolerance into
opening_hours.js so that this value does not result in an error but still warns
that this does not completely follow the syntax (but it is kind of clear what is
meant).
The warning would be: "12:00-late <--- (You can use notation "+" for "-late".
You might want to express open end which can be specified as "12:00+" for 
example.)"
which gives a hint to the mapper.

> We certainly shouldn't be mechanically changing opening_hours tags that 
> don't quite correspond to those rules when we don't quite understand the 
> cultural context of the original tags.
You are right. I did manually look at this node and came to the conclusion that
open end would be appropriate. If that is not quite the case then it can still
be improved (as suggested above).

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

I guess we can collect some examples on the proposal page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until#Real_world_examples


On 24.02.2014 23:37, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> One example would be a restaurant near my house, which has a sign painted on 
> the building, advertising breakfast hours as "  - 11:00 AM".  There is a 
> blank space on the sign where you would expect a starting time. I suspect 
> that this means that the opening time varies, but breakfast always stops 
> being served at 11 AM.  I will see if I can take a picture of it.
> 
> On February 24, 2014 3:13:44 PM CST, Serge Wroclawski  
> wrote:
>> I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an
>> opening
>> time. Can you provide some examples?
>>
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good evening
>>>
>>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours
>> syntax. It
>>> is
>>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a
>> closing
>>> time).
>>> So I created a short proposal:
>>>
>>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>>
>>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Live long and prosper
>>> Robin Schneider
>>>
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>>
>>
>> 
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 09:44, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> Hi,
> even if there are examples for such a thing - is it useful?
> For the breakfast example: It's useful to know that breakfast is served
> up to 11 if I'm there at 10 to 11 and have to decide to take a breakfast
> buffet or not; but beforehand I would have to know when it starts serving.
Yes. But the question is what to do if the starting time is not specified or
varies. That there will be some doubt is inevitable.

> For a bar that's advertising to be opened bis 5 in the morning, how
> should software or even a human being decide if that's starting from
> midnight (as it's a bar opening when others close) or starting from 5 in
> the afternoon, or if it's open the whole day, too (starting e.g. at 11:00)?
At least this can be ensured. The opening_hours syntax always uses the 24 hours
time format.

> So while an open-end is valuable, especially with a minimum-opening-time
> (open 17:00-22:00+) the opposite isn't useful in my opinion.
> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
> Am 24.02.2014 22:09, schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider:
>> Good evening
>>
>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It is
>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing 
>> time).
>> So I created a short proposal:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] closing-hours

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 15:24, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> Hi André,
> as far as I know, the same would be possible with
> opening_hours="24/7, Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
You almost got it. The use of a comma to separate rules does mean that the
second rule would be interpreted as additional rule (not overwriting the
previous one (to be exact the , see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours:specification and to extend
its timerange) which does not make sense in the case of 24/7
(https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#time-ranges) because it means 24 hours
7 days a week (of always) without exceptions.

I would recommend the following:
opening_hours="open; Fr 14:00-22:00 off"

You can test opening_hours here if you like:
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/

> 
> no need for an extra tag.
> Also keep in mind that two tags opening_hours and closing_hours are
> error prone when used both together at the same object.
I agree with Peter. This can already be described. No need for a second tag
namespace.

> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
> Am 25.02.2014 14:50, schrieb André Pirard:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I had to tag several parking lots closed on times such as *Fr 14:00-22:00* 
>> when 
>> the market took place there.
>> I raised a convoluted discussion: everyone had a different opinion about 
>> that 
>> tagging, plus strange comments (*).
>> After more than 10 hours spent in research and collaboration, I had to 
>> conclude 
>> with the inability of the Key:Opening_hours 
>>  specification to express that 
>> timing, 
>> or explain it, at least simply.
>>
>> I finally used a vary straightforward and clear:
>>
>> *closing-hours=Fr 14:00-22:00*
>>
>> and I suggest that you use it too and that you add that key to the 
>> specification.
>>
>> It can be clearly explained, once won't hurt, as follows:
>> As often funnily put, /*closing-hours*/ is the same as /*opening-hours*/ 
>> except 
>> that it is exactly the opposite :-)
>> Seriously: use /*closing-hours*/ with the same rules as *opening-hours* and 
>> invert the result: opening time becomes closing time and conversely.
>> It couldn't be more simple, obvious and understandable.  Quite the opposite 
>> of 
>> that story.
>>
>> May this be helpful,
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>
>> André.
>>
>>
>> (*) I read very strange statements such as:
>> "off" must not be defined, it must be grasped.
>> "off" is not used.
>> "off" is used, but not like that.
>> xxx, must not be defined because it has been used for a long time.
>> it's wrong.
>> it's wrong.
>> ... (without saying what's right)
>> etc, etc, etc...
>>
>> In face of such chaos, I tried to help by putting the rules in a clear 
>> diagram 
>> so that the incongruities would stand out and be corrected, and the 
>> reactions 
>> were twofold:
>> - yeah, finally a simple and understandable explanation
>> - it's wrong, but again without saying more, less making corrections


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Re: [Tagging] closing-hours

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 15:46, John Packer wrote:
>> if you're very versed in openening_hours tagging (which I am not) you can
>> AFAIK even express stuff like "except every last wednesday in the month
>> from 9:00 to 17:00" (something occuring here e.g. for street cleaning).
> 
> 
> That's actually related to something I need to do here.
> How can I describe a different opening hours for the first saturday of
> every month?

Su[1] can be used as explained here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#Rules

> 
> PS: Sorry for hijacking this conversation.
> 
> 
> 2014-02-25 11:33 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
> 
>>
>> 2014-02-25 15:24 GMT+01:00 Peter Wendorff :
>>
>> Hi André,
>>> as far as I know, the same would be possible with
>>> opening_hours="24/7, Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
>>>
>>
>>
>> +1
>> if you're very versed in openening_hours tagging (which I am not) you can
>> AFAIK even express stuff like "except every last wednesday in the month
>> from 9:00 to 17:00" (something occuring here e.g. for street cleaning).
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 16:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-02-25 14:32 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> The problem with
>> "12:00-late" is that it is not valid syntax and thous can not evaluated by
>> software. The "12:00+" is evaluated by opening_hours.js as "12:00-24:00"
>> which
>> is probably not long enough in this case. But it does come somewhere close
>> to
>> reality.
>>
> 
> 
> if we have to decide between formally wrong data which is understandable by
> humans and data that is formally correct but doesn't correspond to the
> actual facts, we should decide to keep the former (at this time). A formal
> error is automatically detectable, so it will sooner or later be corrected,
> but wrong facts are very hard to find, especially if they look correct.
Correct. The nice thing is that we can get both things and I thought I would get
to there with my change. I still think that the change was not so bad but I was
not aware of the special meaning. What is the reason why open end does not apply
in this case? Is it the not long enough time range which is indicated by 
'-late'?

> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] closing-hours

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 15:49, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
> On 25.02.2014 15:24, Peter Wendorff wrote:
>> Hi André,
>> as far as I know, the same would be possible with
>> opening_hours="24/7, Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
> You almost got it. The use of a comma to separate rules does mean that the
> second rule would be interpreted as additional rule (not overwriting the
> previous one (to be exact the , see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours:specification and to 
> extend
> its timerange) which does not make sense in the case of 24/7
> (https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#time-ranges) because it means 24 
> hours
> 7 days a week (of always) without exceptions.
One addition to that:
In general an additional rule only makes sense if you want to *extend* times
which is not the case if the additional rule has another 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours:specification) then the
previous one.

> 
> I would recommend the following:
> opening_hours="open; Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
> 
> You can test opening_hours here if you like:
> http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 16:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-02-25 16:14 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> Correct. The nice thing is that we can get both things and I thought I
>> would get
>> to there with my change. I still think that the change was not so bad but
>> I was
>> not aware of the special meaning. What is the reason why open end does not
>> apply
>> in this case? Is it the not long enough time range which is indicated by
>> '-late'?
>>
> 
> I don't know in this specific (british) context, but my guess is that
> 12:00+ indicates (typically) until curfew, while "late" maybe has the
> meaning "beyond curfew".
All right. Interesting. If that is the case it might be better to write this
explicitly (using fixed times and comments) because it is probably not desirable
to add this to the syntax.

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Re: [Tagging] closing-hours

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 26.02.2014 12:45, André Pirard wrote:
> On 2014-02-25 15:24, Peter Wendorff wrote :
>> Hi André,
>> as far as I know, the same would be possible with
>> opening_hours="24/7, Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
> Oh no, please please please, let us not start that same thread all over again.
> (opening-hours: how to code "always but..."?)
> What you say has already been said, amended, denied, rejected in every way 
> etc.
> It's a tagging that I originally proposed and the comments were ("inside 
> quotes")
> -1 24/7 : "it's wrong", "is used for a rendering icon"
> -1 ,; : ,
> -1 off : "is not used", "is used, but not like that"
> On 2014-02-25 15:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote :
>> +1
> -1
> On 2014-02-25 15:49, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote :
>> opening_hours="open; Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
> -1 : open : "it's an invention"
It was introduced by Netzwolf some years ago because it is needed as
 (when used together with a comment). It is now used over 150
times to do exactly that (regex: /open\s+"/). Of course it is an invention but
one which is required.


> So ... your contradictory replies are the exact proof that closing-hours is 
> badly needed.
I do not think that it is needed …


> Failing that, the chaos that you demonstrate will continue.
> And that means a useless database.
I agree. It is a bit difficult but semicolon is the default rule separator and
comma should only be used as needed.

> 
> Only  closing-hours=Fr 14:00-22:00  cannot be disputed.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> André.
> 
> 
>> no need for an extra tag.
>> Also keep in mind that two tags opening_hours and closing_hours are
>> error prone when used both together at the same object.
+1

>>
>> regards
>> Peter
>>
>> Am 25.02.2014 14:50, schrieb André Pirard:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I had to tag several parking lots closed on times such as *Fr 14:00-22:00* 
>>> when
>>> the market took place there.
>>> I raised a convoluted discussion: everyone had a different opinion about 
>>> that
>>> tagging, plus strange comments (*).
>>> After more than 10 hours spent in research and collaboration, I had to 
>>> conclude
>>> with the inability of the Key:Opening_hours
>>> <http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Opening_hours>  specification to express that 
>>> timing,
>>> or explain it, at least simply.
>>>
>>> I finally used a vary straightforward and clear:
>>>
>>> *closing-hours=Fr 14:00-22:00*
>>>
>>> and I suggest that you use it too and that you add that key to the 
>>> specification.
>>>
>>> It can be clearly explained, once won't hurt, as follows:
>>> As often funnily put, /*closing-hours*/ is the same as /*opening-hours*/ 
>>> except
>>> that it is exactly the opposite :-)
>>> Seriously: use /*closing-hours*/ with the same rules as *opening-hours* and
>>> invert the result: opening time becomes closing time and conversely.
>>> It couldn't be more simple, obvious and understandable.  Quite the opposite 
>>> of
>>> that story.
>>>
>>> May this be helpful,
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>> André.
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[Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi

I want to discuss the script based fixing of easy mistakes occurring in OSM.
It began with a little regular expression and the question how to do automated
edits:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/31169/how-to-change-key-values-based-on-regular-expressions-in-josm

Now I have something which works on GitHub:
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours_bot

I only intent to fix values which are a.) not evaluated by
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/
and b.) are unambiguously. Also they have to occur multiple times in OSM.

Currently the following rulesets are implemented:
* '0930-0630' -> '09:30-06:30'
* 'nach vereinbarung' -> '"nach Vereinbarung"'

I wanted to ask if that is OK with you as I will probably add more rules to the
script when I come across values which meet my requirements.

My latest changesets (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ypid/history) were made
using this script.

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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 05.03.2014 20:28, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 05/mar/2014 um 19:15 schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider :
>>
>> 'nach vereinbarung' -> '"nach Vereinbarung"'
> 
> 
> is this about the key opening_hours or the key öffnungszeiten? wouldn't it be 
> better to change this to "by appointment"?

There is no key öffnungszeiten, but yes it is only about the key opening_hours.
As said before I am not going to change the meaning. The value '"nach
Vereinbarung"' is used more often so that‘s another reason for that.

Maybe an proposal should be created for some common comments to make it possible
to translate them to local language but this is not done yet.

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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 05.03.2014 21:22, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 03/05/2014 07:15 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
>> I wanted to ask if that is OK with you as I will probably add more rules to 
>> the
>> script when I come across values which meet my requirements.
> 
> I would suggest that, if at all, you only make these changes in Germany
> and not elsewhere, since much of the opening hours related discussion
> has really only seen German participation and I'm not sure if mappers
> elsewhere even agree with the way the Germans have decided to handle
> their opening hours tag.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 

Couldn‘t we try to agree about a base of correction rules which apply world 
wide?

I mean the correction
'0930-0630' -> '09:30-06:30'*
seams quite straight forward and I guess if someone aware of the wiki page about
opening_hours will find such a value he/she will change it by hand anyway.
I assume that this will improve the data quality and will not lead to opposite.

* value unlikely for this facility: added fixme node:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2600853055/history

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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 06.03.2014 10:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-03-05 21:25 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> There is no key öffnungszeiten, but yes it is only about the key
>> opening_hours.
>> As said before I am not going to change the meaning. The value '"nach
>> Vereinbarung"' is used more often so that‘s another reason for that.
>>
> 
> 
> I am generally opposing german language values in formalized tags *),
> especially where a generic fact is expressed that has a corresponding word
> in English like here. For this reason I am opposing that you normalize
> those tags as it would distort the actual tagging numbers and next time
> you'd be able to say that there are even more of these values, all unified
> in the same clean format ;-)

In general I agree with you. But I see the comment in opening_hours more like
the description key which can (or should) be in local language. I also agree
that it would be better to use a set of default English keywords in the
opening_hours comment (which is then translated to the local language of the
user by software) but for this to happen, we would need a proposal which
describes some common keywords. Also this can be done in an later phase. I guess
it would be not such a good idea if I start to retag already valid opening_hours
in an automated way (without a dedicated discussion and proposal first). There
are many mappers how don‘t fully agree with running bots on the OSM data.

> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> *) the basis for our tagging are English tags, worldwide, so that people
> can use the data easier, if we started to use localized tags in hundreds of
> languages OSM would soon become almost useless or at least the effort of
> producing even a simple map would become huge.

The vast majority of the opening_hours syntax is standardized and can be 
evaluated:
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/


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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 08.03.2014 16:37, fly wrote:
> On 06.03.2014 19:12, Stephan Knauss wrote:
>> Robin `ypid` Schneider writes:
>>
>>> I mean the correction
>>> '0930-0630' -> '09:30-06:30'*
>>> seams quite straight forward and I guess if someone aware of the wiki
>>> page about
>>> opening_hours will find such a value he/she will change it by hand
>>> anyway.
>>> I assume that this will improve the data quality and will not lead to
>>> opposite.
>>> * value unlikely for this facility: added fixme node:
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2600853055/history
>>
>> This is a perfect example of a change which should *NOT* be automated.
>>
>> with the "0930-0630" syntax it's easy to highlight on a quality check
>> tool as the syntax is wrong.
>> By checking the syntax a human would likely notice that the opening hour
>> might be fine for a fast-food restaurant, but not for a government
>> passport office.
>> So a human mapper would not only fix the syntax, but also fix the wrong
>> usage of a 12 hour time format and write "09:30-18:30", probably even
>> noticing it's not open every day and writing "Mo-Fr 09:30-18:30".
>>
>> When your bot would have changed it to "09:30-06:30" it's a lot more
>> difficult to actually spot this suspicious data.
Point for you. I guess I can not correct this case only with a script because of
this special case I was not really aware of. I will be more careful here.

> You could run bots to find these errors and illustrate them but you
> should touch the values this way.
You mean "should not"? I agree … This value has to be checked by a human as
described above.

I already run 'bots' (better called scripts in this case) to find opening_hours
which can not be parsed: https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#large-scale

Or on a map: http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/?setLng=en

> Though, I am happy that you did not try to delete "nach vereinbarung" as
> some mapper did with my "appointment" but is seems that this should be
> added as value.
Are there any thoughts about that second rule.
* 'nach vereinbarung' -> '"nach Vereinbarung"'
which would only impact German values? Or are there also some special cases
which I did not think of?

> JOSM Validator already warns about wrong syntax but it does not accept
> "appointment" or by "appointment".
? JOSM Validator for opening_hours uses the same library in the background as
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/
and when I test the value '"appointment"' (excluding the single quotes) it does
not show any warnings.

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi

After some discussion about this feature on the mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-February/016559.html
the proposal is now open for voting.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - opening hours holiday select

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi again

And direct the next one. Sadly there was no discussion for this proposal yet.
Started voting phase:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_holiday_select

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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Thanks for the hint … I fixed it in this commit:
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours_map/commit/d45c8b6776091845576342f61e80dfef3bd698ba

More issues can be reported here: 
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours_map/issues

On 12.03.2014 07:52, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> Hi Robin,
> small suggestion for your opening-hours map (nice map, by the way):
> The tags list in the lower part of the markers box is (technically and
> visually) a table but the key is postfixed with an additional ":", which
> is confusing because it may as well be part of the key itself.
> Within the table layout it would have no negative consequences to omit
> the : after the key but make it slightly better readable.
> 
> regards
> Peter

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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Unfortunately this is a problem which exists since the beginning of this map. I
did not yet manage to fix this. If someone can help me here I would appreciate
it: https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours_map/issues/1
I guess I will try it again next week and I hope to fix this bug soon.

On 12.03.2014 08:45, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> Another question to the map:
> do you consider POIs mapped as polygons?
> 
> The Heinz Nixdorf Museumsforum [1] in Paderborn is not shown on your map
> although there's an opening_hours tag since months (if not years).
> 
> regards
> Peter

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - opening hours holiday select

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Valid question. The answer is written down here:
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#holidays
(also referred to be the proposal page).

Holidays have to be defined. For all German school holidays I wrote a script
which parses http://www.schulferien.org/ and generates this definitions:
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js/blob/master/convert_ical_to_json

On 14.03.2014 15:57, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Summer Holidays are when schools close in the summer.
> 
> The issue I have is that they vary between local authorities, so seeing 
> opening times for summer holidays, I have to find out which local authority 
> covers the area and then visit their website to find the dates of the summer 
> holidays.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> --
>  
> Sent from my Nokia N9
>  
> 
> 
> On 14/03/2014 13:20 Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> 
> Indeed- I have no idea what "summer holidays" are. I know what
> "federal holidays" are, I know what some religious holidays are, but
> "summer holidays" isn't something I'm familiar with.
> 
> 
> - Serge
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:03 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>> How do you define summer holidays? surely on its own it is not helpful.
>>
>> It will require a database of when holidays are, based on location.
>>
>> A business which serves multiple local authorities will straddle all those
>> areas holidays.
>>
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] opening-hours and closing-hours

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 14.03.2014 15:45, fly wrote:
> Did you every think about "00:00-24:00; Fr 14:00-22:00 off"
+1

> I really do not get your problems as the syntax already allows a lot.
+1

> Still do not have any need for "open/closed" or closing_hours.
I strongly represent the opinion that closing_hours is unnecessary. Please give
me an example which can not be expressed with the current syntax and would be
covered by the proposed closing_hours.

To elaborate a little more on the point of having the 'open' and the 'closed'
keywords. They became mandatory with the introduction of comments. Because a
comment is by default evaluated to the state "unknown". But there are many cases
in which the comment does not influence if the facility is open but rather gives
additional information. (Search for 'open "':
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours).

open\s+": is used 152 times
closed\s+": is used 42 times

(\s+ stands for one or more white space characters for example spaces).

> One good point about the discussion is that "appointment" is considered
> valid.
Is valid since the existence of comments. Also search for 'open "':
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours. Some mappers have the
intention to define keywords but this is not proposed yet (and I am not working
on an proposal for this either).


> On 14.03.2014 12:37, André Pirard wrote:
>> On 2014-03-13 19:06, Pieren wrote :
>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's unclear if your proposal is "opening_hours=SH(summer holiday)" or
>>> "opening_hours=SH" (then you should correct the wiki because the tag
>>> template is using the first version)
>>>
>>> I guess you plan to update the main "opening_hours" wiki if the
>>> proposal is accepted ?
>> As well as
>>
>>   * choose one of the 5 or 6 contradictory forms, each denying the
>> former ones, that were answered to my case that I finally proposed
>> unambiguously as  *closing-hours=Fr 14:00-22:00* (in a message
>> followed by -1 -1 -1 and 2 or 3 more contradictory tags)
>>   * if the answer to the simplified diagram I added to try to clarify
>> many things is really "it's wrong", say what is wrong and correct it
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#.22Some_people_don.27t_fully_agree_with_the_following_simplified_diagram.22_-_what_is_the_problem.3F

>>   * especially, regarding *your* particular proposition 
>> *opening_hours="open; Fr 14:00-22:00 off"*
>>   o explain:  "open" and "closed" appear to be some new invention
>> [*of mine, *in the diagram]
See above.

>>   o write a definition for *off* or validate/correct the definition
>> in my diagram and explain the following replies to this request
>> or its usage: 
>>   + it's not used;
>>   + it's used but not like that;
>>   + *off* must not be defined but grasped; 
>>   + the meaning of "off" is wrong
>>   + "off" [must not be defined because it] has been in use for
>> quite some time already.
>>   + http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains
>> explains quite well how the overall opening_hours syntax
>> works (why then did I have to add its URL to the main page?)
Not sure what you are saying. 'off' is equal to 'closed' as defined here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours:specification

>>   o write a definition or *open*, make up your mind between, and
>> clarify:
>>   + "open" and "closed" appear to be some new invention
>>   + It was introduced by Netzwolf some years ago because it is
>> needed as  (when used together with a
>> comment). It is now used over 150 times to do exactly that
>> (regex: /open\s+"/). Of course it is an invention but one
>> which is required
>>   + make explanations for the general tagger (I'm fine with
>> regexp but not everybody)
>>   o clarify: "Because of the definition that following rules will
>> overwrite previous once, times which span over midnight have to
>> use additional rules which are separated by comma instead of
>> semicolon. "
>>   + probably "override previous ones" and general syntax
>>   + instead 

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - No votes for proposals opening_hours_holiday_select and opening_hours_open_until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi

I created two proposals for which the time to vote is over but there are no
votes :(. Should we open the voting once again or what is the usual procedure in
such a case? The proposals are:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_holiday_select

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - No votes for proposals opening_hours_holiday_select and opening_hours_open_until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 08.04.2014 11:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-04-07 22:11 GMT+02:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> I created two proposals for which the time to vote is over but there are no
>> votes :(. Should we open the voting once again or what is the usual
>> procedure in
>> such a case? The proposals are:
>>
> 
> 
> of course you can  reput this to voting, but if there wasn't interest the
> first time it might continue to be like this also the second time. Did you
> advertize your proposals on "tagging", local ML etc.? It might also be that
> there wasn't enough "marketing" for your proposals to draw the attention of
> potential voters.
As noted on the proposal pages, both proposals where properly announced on the
tagging list and discussed. I did not make further advertisements because of the
participation I saw on the mailing list.

> 
> In detail I have looked at your proposals now, and like to comment:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_holiday_select
> 
> IMHO it would be useful to have a list (also the beginning of a list) of
> possible values to make this more useful for documentation purposes.
> Usually spaces are substituted by underscores in formal values and no
> capitalization occurs. Maybe it could also be made more explicit that this
> is an _only_ condition (not sure if makes sense).

The naming schema was the one which had been used by Netzwolf originally (in the
source code). It is also the one which I got from the import of all school
holidays in Germany (with
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js/blob/master/convert_ical_to_json).
Changing that format can be discussed. Personally I don‘t think that it is
necessary about if I am the only one we can change that of course ;)

I guess the syntax is ok. The few who need it or come across this syntax could
hopefully understand it (or try it out:
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/) or read the documentation or
the proposal.

> the other one:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
> seems not to specifiy how this missing information (opening time) should be
> interpreted / is defined.
> 
> What does it mean if there is a social club or say a disco with
> opening_hours=-17:00
> will it be open at 5 in the morning? At noon?
> 
> Or in your example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/370126261/history
> -20:00
> can I have breakfast there? Or eat at 11:30? Or at 16:00?
> 
> IMHO almost useless to put this onto some object. Better ask them when they
> usually open and add this. If there i

I totally agree with you but the values do appear in OSM and I wanted to hear
opinions from other mappers about this. Just asking them (the owners of a
facility) sounds like the best idea. Maybe add a opening_hours comment for notes
and hints.

More details have already been discussed in much more detail on the tagging
mailing list:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-February/016559.html

> cheers,
> Martin

My own opinion about these two proposal is that I fully support the
opening_hours_holiday_select proposal. The opening_hours_open_until proposal on
the other hand was created to talk about this issue and maybe find an solution.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - No votes for proposals opening_hours_holiday_select and opening_hours_open_until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 07.04.2014 22:34, Stephan Knauss wrote:
> Hi Robin,
> 
> On 07.04.2014 22:11, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
>> I created two proposals for which the time to vote is over but there are no
>> votes :(. Should we open the voting once again or what is the usual 
>> procedure in
>> such a case? The proposals are:
> 
> that "voting" for a proposal is nothing more than a rough indication of 
> the opinion of the people actually stated their opinion.
> You could have asked at your local regular's table, in the forum or the 
> mailing list.

Sadly, my time is limited. Unfortunately I don‘t find much time for OSM at the
moment but I try to support this awesome project with doing one thing and doing
it well (which in my case is ... opening_hours ;) ).

I know that writing an proposal and the real OSM data can and does differ in
many cases. But even with that in mind, it is still a good idea to have a new
feature documented somewhere, even if the feature is not very common.

> 
> It's just a different tool to do the community communication process of 
> getting a common understanding about the meaning of specific tags.
> 
> If no one is interested in your tags, then probably it's of no use to 
> the community.
> And we're too much of a Do-ocracy in this case. No one is interested in 
> people solving problems which only exist in theory.
> 
> If your tool can evaluate a specific patter, then do it and document it. 
> If it's reasonable then people will follow that tagging. If not a 
> discussion will arise in the future.
Sounds good. I did this already but then I learned about the proposal process
and it worked quite well in the past:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_end_fixed_time_extension

But if no one (or only a few) are interested in the topics I came currently
across that is ok. It helps if there are pages on the wiki where a issue was
already documented and some solution where introduced.

> 
> I would imagine most people would handle places without a specific 
> opening hour similar I would do. If it's not possible to specify some 
> "core" hours which are certainly open, I would not specify at all.
> It's simply not possible to evaluate it automatically with a reasonable 
> effort. So if a business refuses to tell me when they're open, then they 
> have to accept that software giving hints about "open now" won't list 
> them. Similar to the "open as long as customers are there" closing time...

Sure but if they say you that they are only open during specific school holidays
;) This goes in the same direction as the question „Is this worth it?“
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until)
which I did try to answer there.

> 
> Stephan

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi everyone

As noted by "Ein Mapper" on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be
convenient to have an implicit "PH off" added to most opening_hours values
during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree
more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about
this?

[1]:
https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/#comment-143413
[2]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_default_PH_off

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 30.04.2015 18:04, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
> On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi everyone
>>>
>>> As noted by "Ein Mapper" on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it 
>>> would be
>>> convenient to have an implicit "PH off" added to most opening_hours values
>>> during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I 
>>> agree
>>> more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts 
>>> about
>>> this?
>>
>> Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes
>> on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump
>> through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this
>> already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a
>> notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country,
>> default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain.
>> It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to
>> apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM.

No as already documented under Example & Description. "PH off" for 24/7 would
make no sense.

>>
> +1
> You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk Christmas Day 
> and Easter Sunday have restrictions,  other public holidays are at the 
> businesses discretion and will vary from year to year.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint )

The definition of the public holidays is done once in the software which parses
the opening_hours value. See https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#holidays

I understand your concerns. The reason for this proposal is to define a better
default. I expect that most countries have something like public holidays and
that most amenities are closed on those days.

Regarding the UK. The public holiday definition is still an open issue. Please
consider adding them to opening_hours.js. Also [bank holidays][BH] need to be
defined then.

E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. That is a good point which I want to
find out in this discussion. In my initial proposal I suggested to apply the
implicit PH off to all objects with opening_hours. In case we come up with the
opinion that this proposal is ok, but only for amenity=* and shop=* for example,
I am not sure if I would still propose the implicit PH off then because this
might be too much rules.

PS: Sorry for the double post … Not sure why the * my Thunderbird does this.

[BH]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#BH.3F

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Thanks for all the feedback and insides about how other countries handle this.
Because of the problems that this proposal creates I think it is the best to
leave it as it is and cancel the proposal. So you have to be explicit (as
before) when adding opening_hours. I created overpass queries to find oh values
with missing PH definitions (those values are incomplete). [1]

To the US public holidays. They should be covered for all US states [2]. It has
been noted that the US has multiple holidays. Is that like the bank holidays in
the UK? It might be worth to defined them.

On 01.05.2015 14:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am 30.04.2015 um 18:28 schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider :
>>
>> . I expect that most countries have something like public holidays and
>> that most amenities are closed on those days.
> 
> 
> not only countries, also regions and even cities/municipalities can have 
> their public holidays, but assuming that most amenities will be closed on 
> these days is indeed German centric ;-)
> 
> Furthermore implicit values always bear the risk that the mapper wasn't aware 
> of it, and that you can't see whether the data is incomplete or the default 
> should apply, so it's generally a bad concept for a crowd sourced project 
> like ours 
> 
> cheers 
> Martin

[1]: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=495797#p495797
[2]: https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js/issues/69#issuecomment-74103181

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Re: [Tagging] On appointment restaurant

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Hi

This can already be done, no problem. It is even described on the key page [1].
Just search for "on appointment".

Garbage detector software:

* http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/?setLng=en
* https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance_Tools_script

Checkout: http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/

Kind regards
  ypid

[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/

On 13.05.2015 16:26, André Pirard wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Either opening_hours=on_appointment is missing or amenity=restaurant
> lacks a tag or an explanation.
> 
> It is a restaurant indeed, but only hired for private group events like
> marriages.
> It is not an  amenity=community_centre  but it's also what you call a
> craft=caterer.
> 
> How do I map that?
> 
> BTW, here it is next to an attached building
>  and I left the "previous
> version" separately around it.
> Does anyone know a good garbage detector software?
> Is there a "map repairer of the month" nomination?
> 
>> addr:city=Dolembreux
>> addr:housename=Le Normandie
>> addr:housenumber=21
>> addr:postcode=4140
>> addr:street=Haie des Chênes
>> amenity=restaurant
>> building=yes
>> contact:email=i...@malherbes-normandie.be
>> contact:phone=+32 4 368 72 35
>> contact:website=http://www.malherbes-normandie.be
>> craft=caterer
>> name=Le Normandie
>> operator=traiteur Malherbes
>> takeaway=yes
> (no ad intended)
> 
> TIA,
> 
> André.


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Re: [Tagging] On appointment restaurant

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 14.05.2015 23:17, André Pirard wrote:
> On 2015-05-13 16:49, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote :
>> Hi
>>
>> This can already be done, no problem. It is even described on the key page 
>> [1].
>> Just search for "on appointment".
> Typical of that page, you discover "on appointment" by chance in an
> example dealing with fallback.
> I have read that page throughout 36 times, that's what one must do for
> each question.
> And you make me discover a very fundamental rule I didn't notice after
> 36 readings: that the tokens can be literal strings. And I wonder how
> software supposed to tell whether it's open can understand strings.
> Thanks.

Software is not supposed to evaluate comments in opening_hours (although there
has been an discussion about this [2]). I just added an explanation for the use
of comments [3]. I hope this helps.

About the complexity:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/23332#comment27468
You are welcome to write good documentation/tutorials for normal mappers.

The thing which really helped me to understand opening_hours in OSM was the
syntax specification [4]. I would recommend everyone to try to wrap your head
around it.

[2]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#women.2Fmen-only_days
[3]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#explain:comment
[4]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification


>> Garbage detector software:
> It's not the tagging errors that the QA tools usually detect.
> I discovered 2 streets whose non missing buildings outlines were mapped
> "à la Picasso".
> Very nice from a 5 m distance in an exhibition hall, but hair-raising as
> you watch close up.
> I was wondering if there's more Picasso around and where.
> I think I'll try searches by author's name.
> Is award-winning rush-tagging OSM-like ?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> André.
> 
> 
>> * http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/?setLng=en
>> * https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance_Tools_script
>>
>> Checkout: http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/
>>
>> [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours

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Re: [Tagging] On appointment restaurant

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 16.05.2015 02:03, André Pirard wrote:
> On 2015-05-15 10:09, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote :
>> On 14.05.2015 23:17, André Pirard wrote:
>>> On 2015-05-13 16:49, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote :
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> This can already be done, no problem. It is even described on the key page 
>>>> [1].
>>>> Just search for "on appointment".
>>> Typical of that page, you discover "on appointment" by chance in an
>>> example dealing with fallback.
>>> I have read that page throughout 36 times, that's what one must do for
>>> each question.
>>> And you make me discover a very fundamental rule I didn't notice after
>>> 36 readings: that the tokens can be literal strings. And I wonder how
>>> software supposed to tell whether it's open can understand strings.
>>> Thanks.
>> Software is not supposed to evaluate comments in opening_hours (although 
>> there
>> has been an discussion about this [2]). I just added an explanation for the 
>> use
>> of comments [3]. I hope this helps.
> The amazing is that I was told that opening_hours supports (just search)
> "on appointment" and that after coding it I learn that what I have added
> is a comment. And that the "fallback" '|| "on appointment" ' would in
> fact be '||'.

They are supported as comments. I am not sure if there is a use case that goes
beyond displaying "on appointment" to the user (see below) that would require
this to be directly supported by the syntax. If there is, here is a discussion
about it:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#women.2Fmen-only_days

>> About the complexity:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/23332#comment27468
>> You are welcome to write good documentation/tutorials for normal mappers.
> It's far from the first time that I read "if you don't understand, write
> the documentation".
> On the other hand, I did write a simplified syntax
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#Simplified_syntax> of
> what I think I understand and which was applauded by the "normal
> mappers" but someone had removed it and almost insulted me for doing that.

When it helps the average mappers why not. I (un)fortunate am too much involved
in the opening_hours syntax to speak for the average mapper in that regard.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#.22Some_people_don.27t_fully_agree_with_the_following_simplified_diagram.22_-_what_is_the_problem.3F

>> The thing which really helped me to understand opening_hours in OSM was the
>> syntax specification [4]. I would recommend everyone to try to wrap your head
>> around it.
>>
>> [2]:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#women.2Fmen-only_days
>> [3]:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#explain:comment
>> [4]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification
> Thanks for any improvement.
> I suggest (generally) that documentation said something like "anything
> in quotes is a comment that can be considered as removed from the tag"
> and only then gave examples.
> This is because explaining syntax almost only with comments like the
> opening_hours  page does may have the reader believe that comments mean:
> the text in quotes may be displayed on the user screen if the preceding
> part of the rule is true or something like that.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> André.

I always understood comments in opening_hours as comments intended for the end
users. It is true that currently most services or programs that evaluate
opening_hours do not display them but I consider that as a bug of that service
or program which eventually gets fixed. http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/ does
display comments to the end user for example.

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