Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[Mateusz Konieczny]

23. Jun 2018 15:44 by osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
:


>
> Not in any way involved with power mapping, but I don’t think tower:type 
> should have necessarily any implications about what it is that’s being 
> transmitted over the suspended cables.
>




I agree, in principle any power:type may be use to transmit any type of power 
(or not be used at all). 

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[Tagging] shop=health

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I described it on wiki as a poor idea as quite obviously this tag is really 
unclear.
Hopefully nobody thinks that this tag is a good idea.

It is unclear whatever shop=medical_supply or amenity=pharmacy or 
shop=herbalistmeaning was intended.
If someone is aware about more potential meanings or has some other ideas 
howwiki page may be improved - 
seehttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dhealth&action=edit
 

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[Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I described it onhttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount 
as a clear duplicate 
of more popular shop=variety_store 

See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Ddiscount&diff=1621726&oldid=1340500
 
for
 my edit.
I am posting here to check whatever I missed something.
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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[osm.tagging]

I was more thinking about the possibility of mapping above ground phone/data 
cables. Not sure if any of them are strung on what could be considered a 
“tower” or if it’s always a “pole”…

 

So while there currently is primarily a power=tower + tower:type=*

 

I could see something like telecom=tower + tower:type=* also showing up at some 
point.

 

And to keep the possibility open that other types of “towers that hold cables 
up” are defined in the future, I don’t think tower:type=suspension should 
automatically imply power=tower if not explicitly tagged as such.

 

From: Mateusz Konieczny  
Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2018 18:16
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

 

23. Jun 2018 15:44 by osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
 :

Not in any way involved with power mapping, but I don’t think tower:type should 
have necessarily any implications about what it is that’s being transmitted 
over the suspended cables.

 

I agree, in principle any power:type may be use to transmit any type of power 
(or not be used at all). 

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[Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Mateusz Konieczny]

As part of 
processinghttps://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset/issues/35 
I encountered 
shop=shoe_repair
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dshoe_repair 
 had
"It is unclear, whether this tag should be used over the documented 
craft=shoemaker (no proposal/discussion was found). "
I modified it - can somebody look whatever my 
edithttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ashop%3Dshoe_repair&type=revision&diff=1621743&oldid=1499481
 
introduced
 something unwanted?
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Re: [Tagging] shop=health

[osm.tagging]

The first thing that came to mind when reading shop=health is:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_food_store

 

Not sure what the appropriate tag for that is.

 

I agree that shop=health is very ambiguous.

 

From: Mateusz Konieczny  
Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2018 19:15
To: Tagging 
Subject: [Tagging] shop=health

 

I described it on wiki as a poor idea as quite obviously this tag is really 
unclear.

 

Hopefully nobody thinks that this tag is a good idea.

 

It is unclear whatever shop=medical_supply or amenity=pharmacy or shop=herbalist

meaning was intended.

 

If someone is aware about more potential meanings or has some other ideas how

wiki page may be improved - see

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dhealth 

 &action=edit

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Re: [Tagging] shop=health

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It appears that shop=health_food is relatively popular.
I added it to synonyms.

24. Jun 2018 11:48 by osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
:


>
> The first thing that came to mind when reading shop=health is:
>
>  
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_food_store 
> 
>
>  
>
> Not sure what the appropriate tag for that is.
>
>  
>
> I agree that shop=health is very ambiguous.
>
>  
>
> From:>  Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > 
> Sent:>  Sunday, 24 June 2018 19:15
> To:>  Tagging <> tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > >
> Subject:>  [Tagging] shop=health
>
>  
>
> I described it on wiki as a poor idea as quite obviously this tag is really 
> unclear.
>
>  
>
> Hopefully nobody thinks that this tag is a good idea.
>
>  
>
> It is unclear whatever shop=medical_supply or amenity=pharmacy or 
> shop=herbalist
>
> meaning was intended.
>
>  
>
> If someone is aware about more potential meanings or has some other ideas how
>
> wiki page may be improved - see
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dhealth&action=edit
>  
> 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[marc marc]

Le 24. 06. 18 à 11:21, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> As part of processing
> https://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset/issues/35
> I encountered shop=shoe_repair
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dshoe_repair had

imho this sentence need to be changed "(shop) place <...> are repaired"

shop defines where the customer can buy a good or service :
in this case, shoe repair (you give/take you shoe back).
it doesn't say where the repair is done.

craft=* defines where manual work is performed.

a poi that repairs on site will have both tag shop=* craft=*
it's called "un cordonnier" in French
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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-06-18 21:00, Bryan Housel wrote:

*Proposal:*
I’d like to drop `covered=booth` as a suggested tag, as it’s 
superfluous.  If the telephone feature has `booth=yes` or `booth=K6` 
you know it’s a booth.  Then we’re not repurposing the `covered=*` for 
a thing that it doesn’t normally do in other situations and isn’t 
documented on the main `covered` page.


Thoughts?
Booth is a rubbish name for a tag. It is an obscure, American term. Many 
things could be a booth, eg a shop, or a photo booth, or a ticket booth.
In UK English, it is a "telephone box". If you want to tag a telephone 
box, why not a tag for man_made=telephone_box?


It actually tells you what it is. You can add extra tags for the 
specific style or model if you care about that.


Craig
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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

tower:type=suspension means that conductors or lines (not specific to
power) are just linked by vertical insulator.
Like this : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Einebenenmast.jpg

It is opposed to tower:type=anchor which means that conductors or lines are
stopped on the tower
Like this :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Verdrillmast_Oberwoehr.jpg

It is documented here for now, but would deserve a specific wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtower#Tower_type

As the use of ":type" is a poor idea and this may not be specific to tower
or power, I think about a support:function key to make things clear.
We do have poles with anchor, suspension or line termination, for power or
telecom wires also.
support:function is consistent with support=* used to define any kind of
support (pole, pedestal, wall...) for a particular feature.

Finally this would be a useful split with values like
tower:type=communication which doesn't deal with line attachment at all


How do you fell ?

François

2018-06-24 11:21 GMT+02:00 :

> I was more thinking about the possibility of mapping above ground
> phone/data cables. Not sure if any of them are strung on what could be
> considered a “tower” or if it’s always a “pole”…
>
>
>
> So while there currently is primarily a power=tower + tower:type=*
>
>
>
> I could see something like telecom=tower + tower:type=* also showing up at
> some point.
>
>
>
> And to keep the possibility open that other types of “towers that hold
> cables up” are defined in the future, I don’t think tower:type=suspension
> should automatically imply power=tower if not explicitly tagged as such.
>
>
>
> *From:* Mateusz Konieczny 
> *Sent:* Sunday, 24 June 2018 18:16
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension
>
>
>
> 23. Jun 2018 15:44 by osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au:
>
> Not in any way involved with power mapping, but I don’t think tower:type
> should have necessarily any implications about what it is that’s being
> transmitted over the suspended cables.
>
>
>
> I agree, in principle any power:type may be use to transmit any type of
> power (or not be used at all).
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> As part of processing
> https://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset/issues/35
> I encountered shop=shoe_repair
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dshoe_repair had
>
> "It is unclear, whether this tag should be used over the documented
> craft=shoemaker (no proposal/discussion was found). "
>

These two are definitely different things.  In fact, there are three
distinctions to be made.

1) A modern shoe factory, using mass-production techniques.

2) A place where shoes are made by hand.  The old name for a person who
does this is cordwainer.

3) A place where shoes are repaired.  The name for a person who does this
is cobbler.

These terms have complications.

The term "cordwainer" is considered by many to be archaic and it is not
much used.  Probably because
people who make shoes by hand are rare (in developed countries) and they
usually cater to a small luxury
market.

The term "cobbler" is often used for cordwainers as well as those who
repair shoes, another reason
for "cordwainer" dropping out of common usage.

Some cordwainers (shoe makers) are also cobblers (shoe repairers), although
they may only be
willing to repair shoes they themselves made.  Hence modern usage of
"cobbler" to mean either
or both.

So, yes, craft=shoemaker and shop=shoe_repair apply to different things.
And are inconsistent,
to a degree, in that one specifies a shop and one a craft.  Other than
that, I'm happy with your edit
(if you want to add the terms "cobbler" and "cordwainer" I wouldn't object,
but if you don't want to
I still won't object).

We should probably also document man_made=works + product=shoes for the big
shoe factories,
otherwise people may resort to craft=shoemaker for them because it's the
only thing they can find
in the wiki that seems to match.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 00:21, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> When I first see tower:type I think of how it is constructed .. not its 
> function.
> 
> 
> So for me it should be tower:function=*
> 


for bridges, “bridge” and bridge:structure are used. The function usually has 
implications on the structure anyway, e.g. a water tower will have a huge 
storage tank on top, a watchtower a platform, etc.


Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 13:15, François Lacombe  wrote:
> 
> It is documented here for now, but would deserve a specific wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtower#Tower_type


it should be added to the tower:type key summary page as well.

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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23. Jun 2018, at 18:39, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> "Consensus on list is that covered=booth offers no additional information 
> over booth=* and conflicts with existing semantics for covered=yes/no. We'll 
> replace all instances of covered=booth with covered=yes and add a booth=yes 
> to any features that don't already have a booth tag.”


covered has been defined as yes/no/covered by what since 2013, there is no 
conflict at all.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:covered&oldid=918451

There are 4300 booth=* but there are 20% more covered=booth

The booth key has no wiki definition, so it remains completely obscure what it 
is intended to mean.

I do not see a basis for modifying the wiki in the suggested way, even less for 
an automated edit in favor of the less used, undocumented tagging style.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 00:55, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> The only features I’m modifying have the tags `amenity=telephone` and 
> `covered=booth`.
> I will change `covered=booth` to `covered=yes`
> I will add a tag `booth=yes` but only if there is not already an existing 
> `booth*` tag.
> 
> The reason I’m doing this is so that we can offer users a `covered` checkbox 
> for the telephone preset in iD.
> This checkbox really wants to assign values like `yes` and `no` -- not 
> `booth`.
> Make sense?


what about modifying all booth=yes on telephones to covered=booth ?

Looking more at it, there are only 143 booth=yes the key is apparently used to 
tag the specific type of booth, vs. more than 5000 covered=booth

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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jun 24, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> what about modifying all booth=yes on telephones to covered=booth ?



No.  That’s the exact opposite of what I’m trying to achieve.  I feel like you 
might not have read very carefully any of the emails that I’ve sent on the 
subject.

I can’t be any more clear than this:

I will support `covered=yes/no` as a checkbox.
I will support `booth=*` as a dropdown
I won’t support `covered=booth` .  

I’m not going to add special code to iD to make the `covered=yes/no` checkbox 
field (which is used on many other presets) do a special and unnecessary thing 
only when it is used on the telephone preset. 


Thanks, Bryan


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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 16:19, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> I can’t be any more clear than this:
> 
> I will support `covered=yes/no` as a checkbox.
> I will support `booth=*` as a dropdown
> I won’t support `covered=booth` .  


that’s all fine, but you should not retag the objects and should not change the 
wiki as proposed above, it is not justified by the numbers and the way things 
currently are tagged. Do you read what I write? You proposed to retag 5000+ 
objects to a tag that is now 134 times used and where the value is essentially 
an outlier among the other values for the key.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Bryan Housel]

Ok..
I’ve decided after talking to a few more people about this that I’m going to 
just support things in iD the best I can, and pull back from tagging 
discussions.  

Thanks, Bryan



> On Jun 24, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 24. Jun 2018, at 16:19, Bryan Housel  wrote:
>> 
>> I can’t be any more clear than this:
>> 
>> I will support `covered=yes/no` as a checkbox.
>> I will support `booth=*` as a dropdown
>> I won’t support `covered=booth` .  
> 
> 
> that’s all fine, but you should not retag the objects and should not change 
> the wiki as proposed above, it is not justified by the numbers and the way 
> things currently are tagged. Do you read what I write? You proposed to retag 
> 5000+ objects to a tag that is now 134 times used and where the value is 
> essentially an outlier among the other values for the key.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Hi,
I have already RFC-ed this proposal in 2016 but it remained there.
I would like to go to the voting stage, please check it.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dracetra
ck

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi  wrote:

>
> I have already RFC-ed this proposal in 2016 but it remained there.
> I would like to go to the voting stage, please check it.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dracetrack
>
> My vote is no.

Because the proposal specifically excludes any other kind of racing than
motor racing.  Other kinds of
racing (horse, dog, horse and trap, etc.) also refer to their facilities as
a racetrack.  I object to you pre-empting
"racetrack" specifically for motor racing to the exclusion of any other
kind of racing.

This means that when somebody wants to tag a dog track they'd have to
invent something like
leisure=dogtrack.  Or they'd just use whatever their favourite editor pops
up as a preset in response
to "race" without investigating if it is actually appropriate.  So we'll
end up with dog tracks mistagged
as leisure=racetrack, or tagged as a mix of leisure=dogtrack,
leisure=dog_racing, etc.

I know you're interested only in car racing, but even that has pitfalls.
What about F1 racing versus stock car
racing?  And are you also excluding motorbike racing?

As it stands, your proposal is just going to end up with a mix of bad
tagging.  IMO: if your proposal says
"this excludes XYZ" without it pointing to ways of tagging XYZ because
there aren't any ways of tagging
XYZ then it's a bad proposal.  Because many people tagging using their
favourite editor are unlikely to read that
proposal (or the eventual wiki page) and won't get any alternative presets
presented to them to tag XYZ.

If you amend your proposal so that leisure=racetrack applies to any kind of
racing and add a racetrack=* tag
with a few possible values such as motor_car, dog, horse, horse_and_trap
then it becomes more sensible.
But still needs some thought with regard to F1, stock car, etc.  And some
thought as to multi-purpose tracks:
do they get semicolon-separated values or the value "mixed"?

All in my opinion, of course.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

Hi

No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia [^1]:

> A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
> prices that are lower than the typical market price.
>
> [...]
>
> Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a single 
> price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores differ from 
> variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and because of the 
> wide price range of the items offered.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store

Regards
Markus
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 11:17, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> I described it on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> as a clear duplicate of more popular shop=variety_store
>
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Ddiscount&diff=1621726&oldid=1340500
> for my edit.
>
> I am posting here to check whatever I missed something.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno dom, 24/06/2018 alle 17.42 +0100, Paul Allen ha scritto:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi  ail.com> wrote:
> > I have already RFC-ed this proposal in 2016 but it remained there.I
> > would like to go to the voting stage, please check it.https://wiki.
> > openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dracetrack
> > 
> My vote is no.
> 
> Because the proposal specifically excludes any other kind of racing
> than motor racing.  Other kinds of
> racing (horse, dog, horse and trap, etc.) also refer to their
> facilities as a racetrack.  I object to you pre-empting
> "racetrack" specifically for motor racing to the exclusion of any
> other kind of racing.
> 
> This means that when somebody wants to tag a dog track they'd have to
> invent something like
> leisure=dogtrack.  Or they'd just use whatever their favourite editor
> pops up as a preset in response
> to "race" without investigating if it is actually appropriate.  So
> we'll end up with dog tracks mistagged
> as leisure=racetrack, or tagged as a mix of leisure=dogtrack,
> leisure=dog_racing, etc.
> 
> I know you're interested only in car racing, but even that has
> pitfalls.  What about F1 racing versus stock car
> racing?  And are you also excluding motorbike racing?
> 
> As it stands, your proposal is just going to end up with a mix of bad
> tagging.  IMO: if your proposal says
> "this excludes XYZ" without it pointing to ways of tagging XYZ
> because there aren't any ways of tagging
> XYZ then it's a bad proposal.  Because many people tagging using
> their favourite editor are unlikely to read that
> proposal (or the eventual wiki page) and won't get any alternative
> presets presented to them to tag XYZ.
> 
> If you amend your proposal so that leisure=racetrack applies to any
> kind of racing and add a racetrack=* tag
> with a few possible values such as motor_car, dog, horse,
> horse_and_trap then it becomes more sensible.
> But still needs some thought with regard to F1, stock car, etc.  And
> some thought as to multi-purpose tracks:
> do they get semicolon-separated values or the value "mixed"?
> 
> All in my opinion, of course.
> 

The main reason because I excluded non-motorised sports is because many
of them seem to have an already established way of mapping. 
All this pages mention sports_centre and stadium as physical tag
combination for related facilities:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Ddog_racing
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dhorse_racing
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dequestrian
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbobsleigh
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dcycling
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbmx

In my opinion including all racing sports would be a problem and put a
break on the "motorised" variable is the more viable way. 

As for the term "racetrack", I agree it's ambiguous and I accept
suggestions. Maybe a more descriptive tag is needed (motor_something).

About motor racing specialities, I think it's argument for the sport=*
tag or another subtag someone may want to propose. This is not covered
by the proposal.



Lorenzo









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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi  wrote:

>
> The main reason because I excluded non-motorised sports is because many of
> them seem to have an already established way of mapping.
> All this pages mention sports_centre and stadium as physical tag
> combination for related facilities:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Ddog_racing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dhorse_racing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dequestrian
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbobsleigh
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dcycling
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbmx
>

I've looked at those and most of them seem, to me, documenting what people
have used because they couldn't
find anything better.  I think leisure_centre is a bad fit, because I'd see
a leisure centre as somewhere you go to
do something rather than to watch something.  Yes, it's borderline because
some leisure centres incorporate
spectator facilities, but when I think of a dog track "leisure centre"
doesn't come to mind.


> As for the term "racetrack", I agree it's ambiguous and I accept
> suggestions. Maybe a more descriptive tag is needed (motor_something).
>

It's not so much the ambiguity, but why should motor racing have first
claim on it?  What it boils down to is do we
clarify by leisure=motor_race_track, leisure=dog_race_track, etc., or have
leisure=racetrack+racetrack=dog?  Each
method has its proponents.

About motor racing specialities, I think it's argument for the sport=* tag
> or another subtag someone may want to propose. This is not covered by the
> proposal.
>

Is it a sport?  I'd say it's a spectator sport.  There's a difference.  A
sport is something I can take part in, a spectator sport
is something I go to watch.  Actually, I do neither, and would rather spend
my time watching slow-motion replays of
paint drying, but that's beside the point.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Peter Elderson]

I would call both "dumps".

2018-06-24 20:08 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia
> [^1]:
>
> > A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products
> at prices that are lower than the typical market price.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a
> single price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores
> differ from variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and
> because of the wide price range of the items offered.
>
> [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store
>
> Regards
> Markus
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 11:17, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > I described it on
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> > as a clear duplicate of more popular shop=variety_store
> >
> > See
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:
> shop%3Ddiscount&diff=1621726&oldid=1340500
> > for my edit.
> >
> > I am posting here to check whatever I missed something.
> > ___
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>
> ___
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>



-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-24 20:08 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop.
>


+1, it could be seen as a variant of small supermarket or convenience
store. I have also asked myself in the past if we make these a new kind of
shop or add a discounter=yes flag or something similar.
Currently they are tagged as supermarkets.

It is usually clear for the "natives" which brand names relate to discount
stores, but the distinction might be interesting for tourists. I believe
there is some difference compared to supermarkets, which could be reflected
somehow in the tagging, but maybe it is so subtle that a main tag would be
overkill? A flag makes it easy for dataconsumers that are unaware or less
interested in this distinction, to ignore it, without delivering completely
wrong results.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-24 20:16 GMT+02:00 Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi :

> The main reason because I excluded non-motorised sports is because many of
> them seem to have an already established way of mapping.
> All this pages mention sports_centre and stadium as physical tag
> combination for related facilities:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Ddog_racing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dhorse_racing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dequestrian
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbobsleigh
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dcycling
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbmx
>
>

these are all sports "properties" that need to be combined with a tag
describing the physical object, if we introduce a specific leisure value
for racing facilities, it could make sense to include other racing as well
(velodromes, ...).

I also believe there is some potential for confusion between racetrack
(intended for facility) and raceway (intended for the actual
track/"highway")). What about leisure=racing_facility ? Makes it clearer
(could also be useful for indoor? Is there something for indoor cart
racing?).
If you really want to restrict the use of the tag for motor racing places,
I suggest you add the term "motor" in the tag (e.g.
leisure=motor_racing_facility).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

24. Jun 2018 20:08 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com 
:


> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia 
> [^1]:
>
>> A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
>> prices that are lower than the typical market price.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a single 
>> price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores differ from 
>> variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and because of 
>> the wide price range of the items offered.




It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.




So shop=discount may be a convenience discount shop or doityourself discount 
shop 


or medical supply discount shop...

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.


usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the pallet”, 
i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation, tending to bigger 
packages, for a cheaper price.
Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also typically sell 
occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the season (like tools, 
clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or 1 phone), but usually only 
from 2-3 boxes, it does not take significant space.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno dom, 24/06/2018 alle 19.32 +0100, Paul Allen ha scritto:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi  ail.com> wrote:
> > The main reason because I excluded non-motorised sports is because
> > many of them seem to have an already established way of mapping. 
> > All this pages mention sports_centre and stadium as physical tag
> > combination for related facilities:
> > 
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Ddog_racing
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dhorse_racing
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dequestrian
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbobsleigh
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dcycling
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Asport%3Dbmx
> 
> I've looked at those and most of them seem, to me, documenting what
> people have used because they couldn't
> find anything better.  I think leisure_centre is a bad fit, because
> I'd see a leisure centre as somewhere you go to
> do something rather than to watch something.  Yes, it's borderline
> because some leisure centres incorporate
> spectator facilities, but when I think of a dog track "leisure
> centre" doesn't come to mind.

But also the most common motor racing facilities, for motocross,
karting, usually don't have stands and other things for spectators.
These are places where normal people go and practice the sport.

> > About motor racing specialities, I think it's argument for the
> > sport=* tag or another subtag someone may want to propose. This is
> > not covered by the proposal.
> 
> Is it a sport?  I'd say it's a spectator sport.  There's a
> difference.  A sport is something I can take part in, a spectator
> sport
> is something I go to watch.  Actually, I do neither, and would rather
> spend my time watching slow-motion replays of
> paint drying, but that's beside the point.

Who cares if it's a real sport is not  :) . When I use the word "sport"
I mean what we tag as sport=*
To be clear, I'm not particulary interested in motor sports, expecially
those that attract many people. I'm here to propose a tag which I think
is needed.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 22:27, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> 3) A place where shoes are repaired.  The name for a person who does this
> is cobbler.
>

In Australia at least, these sort of "shops" are frequently located in a
kiosk in the middle of a shopping centre, where they repair shoes, cut
keys, do engraving, replace watch & remote batteries etc.

https://www.stockland.com.au/shopping-centres/centres/stockland-burleigh-heads/stores/multi-services

https://www.robinatowncentre.com.au/shop/stores/mister-minit

How would you map something like that?
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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> In Australia at least, these sort of "shops" are frequently located in a
> kiosk in the middle of a shopping centre, where they repair shoes, cut
> keys, do engraving, replace watch & remote batteries etc.
>

Around here they tend to be actual shops, and not part of a franchise.
Often they are gift shops or some other type
of shop that also offer shoe repairs, engraving, key cutting, changing
watch batteries, replacing watch straps, etc.


> How would you map something like that?
>

Map it as the main shop type and ignore the rest.  Or use
semicolon-separated values in the shop=, with the
main shop type first.  Or map each function as a node in a different place
in the building.

There's no good way of doing it, just various bad ways with different
advantages and disadvantages.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-24 18:01 GMT+02:00 Bryan Housel :

> Ok..
> I’ve decided after talking to a few more people about this that I’m going
> to just support things in iD the best I can, and pull back from tagging
> discussions.
>


"just support things" sounds fine, if this means adding support for
established tags. I would not consider introducing new tags to be covered
by "supporting things", or would you? What are your criteria to determine
an "established tag"?


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] PTv1 <> PTv2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-24 1:20 GMT+02:00 marc marc :

> Hello,
>
> Le 22. 06. 18 à 15:37, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> > is there a benefit from it?
>
> try to map a multimodal station bus+train+tram
> with one building + one platform with PTv1
> the extend for the station is not the same for a bus and a train
> for some ppl, the plafform must not be mapped with the same objet
> for the rail (a way) and for a bus (a node only)
> so for one "passenger waiting area", sometime osm have 2 objets
>


yes, a bus stop and a railway platform. For me it looks ok to have 2 object
in this case.
The so-called "multimodel station" (one object) really is just different
ways of transport at some kind of interchange (several objects from this
point of view).

I was not questioning PTv2 completely, for example I am not against stop
area / stop area group relations, but there is no need to change the
tagging of 2 million bus stops nor have I ever missed a possibility to map
a bus stop and a train platform on the same object.



> try to make a blind routing to a bus stop with PTv1
> in some country, routing to the highway=bus_stop is fine,
> because it's where ppl wait before jumping into the vehicule
> in some country, it's wrong, the highway=bus_stop in the stop_position
> part of the highway=* for the vehicule, not for the passenger.



yes, bus stops on the highway are an issue, but while this was wide spread
years ago, it seems to have become relatively rare now.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 25/06/18 06:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.


usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the pallet”, 
i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation, tending to bigger 
packages, for a cheaper price.
Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also typically sell 
occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the season (like tools, 
clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or 1 phone), but usually only 
from 2-3 boxes, it does not take significant space.



That is a method of retailing. It could be applied to, say, a hardware store ..

I think it should be a sub tag ... retail:method=pallet/shelf/* ??

I don't think OSM should suggest that one store is 'cheaper' than another.


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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[Warin]

On 24/06/18 23:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 24. Jun 2018, at 13:15, François Lacombe > wrote:



It is documented here for now, but would deserve a specific wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtower#Tower_type



it should be added to the tower:type key summary page as well.


 type say nothing about what is being documented. Separate things up ?

Support or connection? Is one thing.
Connection=insulator/metal_work/* how what ever the tow is supporting is 
attached?

support=wire/rope/antenna .. what the tower is supporting

Function is another
function=communication/power_transmission/*

Get rid of this 'type' thing .. ?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno dom, 24/06/2018 alle 21.15 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer ha
scritto:
> 
> 
> these are all sports "properties" that need to be combined with a tag
> describing the physical object, if we introduce a specific leisure
> value for racing facilities, it could make sense to include other
> racing as well (velodromes, ...).
> 
> I also believe there is some potential for confusion between
> racetrack (intended for facility) and raceway (intended for the
> actual track/"highway")). What about leisure=racing_facility ? Makes
> it clearer (could also be useful for indoor? Is there something for
> indoor cart racing?). 
> If you really want to restrict the use of the tag for motor racing
> places, I suggest you add the term "motor" in the tag (e.g.
> leisure=motor_racing_facility).
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 

Yes, I know about indoor karting too.


Trying to define a common schema, a first distinction could be made by
method of propulsion. motor is covered by the current proposal and
animal seems quite similar to be included, as for the others I'm not
sure.


SPORT   PROPULSION

motor   motor
karting motor
motocross   motor
rc_car  motor
drag racing motor
horse_racinganimal
harness racing  animal
dog_racing  animal
bobsleigh   downhill
toboggandownhill
cycling track_cycling   human
cycling pump_track  human
cycling cycle_speedway  human
cycling cyclo-cross human
cycling downhillhuman/downhill
bmx racing  human



Lorenzo

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Re: [Tagging] tower:type=suspension

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Jun 2018, at 01:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> type say nothing about what is being documented.


I agree, but many mappers love it ;-)


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] drop covered=booth?

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> Ok..
> I’ve decided after talking to a few more people about this that I’m going to 
> just support things in iD the best I can, and pull back from tagging 
> discussions.  
> 
> "just support things" sounds fine, if this means adding support for 
> established tags. I would not consider introducing new tags to be covered by 
> "supporting things", or would you? What are your criteria to determine an 
> "established tag"?


I’ll decide on a case-by-case basis.  The main goals are to let people map what 
they want to map, and to make it easy for novice users to figure out.

Thanks, Bryan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=racetrack

[Yves]

Some of these are already covered, I guess.
See piste:type for winter sports, for instance, but I'm pretty sure horse 
tracks have already a scheme.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[osm.tagging]

I remember about 20 years ago when I was still living in Germany I regularly 
went to a shop that was selling (mostly) food stuff "from the pallet", 
sometimes with slight transport damage (cans with dents, that type of thing).

That's what I would expect to find for a shop=discount


> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> Sent: Monday, 25 June 2018 06:17
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=discount
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny
>  wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.
> 
> 
> usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the
> pallet”, i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation,
> tending to bigger packages, for a cheaper price.
> Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also
> typically sell occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the
> season (like tools, clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or
> 1 phone), but usually only from 2-3 boxes, it does not take
> significant space.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
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