Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[Colin Smale]

Craft and shop are orthogonal. Shop is a location, craft is an activity. 

On 18 March 2018 05:57:02 CET, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>“tailor” sounds very much like a craft to me.
>
> 
>
>On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with 1 tagged objects.
>
> 
>
>From the title of the issue, I assume that craft wasn’t being rendered
>before? Which might very well explain why everyone used shop to tag it…
>
> 
>
>From: James  
>Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2018 12:19
>To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>
>Subject: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor
>
> 
>
>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-373963431
>
>https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shop%3Dtailor
>
>10 000 uses
>
>vs
>
>https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
>5000
>
>Should we support both or just one(if so which?)
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Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Mar 2018, at 10:09, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> Craft and shop are orthogonal. Shop is a location, craft is an activity.


shop is a business offering some service or goods, craft is about a 
professional offering services (or goods they produced). Both are about 
location if we map them.


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[Tom Pfeifer]

This might have been discussed here a while ago?

If you check the wiki pages, with history and comments, there are the following 
things to observe:

- shop was apparently in use before the concept of craft=* came up, this 
explains the higher number
- there is a semantic difference:
  'craft' clearly describes the place where the suit/dress is made.
  'shop' can mean different things. There are places where the customer is just measured, and the 
actual tailoring is done in a place with cheaper labour cost

  'shop' could also mean tailoring-supplies (or is there a different tag for 
it?)

Some people also distinguish making a new dress, vs. doing minor alterations (shortening the legs, 
small repairs).


tom

On 18.03.2018 05:57, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:

“tailor” sounds very much like a craft to me.

On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with 1 tagged objects.

 From the title of the issue, I assume that craft wasn’t being rendered before? Which might very 
well explain why everyone used shop to tag it…


*From:*James 
*Sent:* Sunday, 18 March 2018 12:19
*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
*Subject:* [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor
10 000 uses
vs
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
5000
Should we support both or just one(if so which?)


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Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-03-18 10:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 18. Mar 2018, at 10:09, Colin Smale  wrote:
>> 
>> Craft and shop are orthogonal. Shop is a location, craft is an activity.
> 
> shop is a business offering some service or goods, craft is about a 
> professional offering services (or goods they produced). Both are about 
> location if we map them.

Craft is not a location - you cannot be IN a craft. You CAN be in a
workshop, studio, atelier etc where are craft is practiced. So if we tag
a building "craft=tailoring" then that says "tailoring occurs in this
building" or possibly "tailoring can be contracted in this building" if
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Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[James]

i know for myself I would tag as both shop and craft because shop would
atleast render a point

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 12:58 AM ,  wrote:

> “tailor” sounds very much like a craft to me.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with 1 tagged objects.
>
>
>
> From the title of the issue, I assume that craft wasn’t being rendered
> before? Which might very well explain why everyone used shop to tag it…
>
>
>
> *From:* James 
> *Sent:* Sunday, 18 March 2018 12:19
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor
>
>
>
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-373963431
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shop%3Dtailor
>
> 10 000 uses
>
> vs
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
> 5000
>
> Should we support both or just one(if so which?)
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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[Tagging] RFC — Drop stop positions and platforms

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi everyone,

Seven years ago the Public Transport Proposal introduced, among many useful 
things, three tags:

• public_transport=stop_position
• public_transport=platform
• public_transport=station

They duplicate existing mandatory tags to this day, and contribute the most to 
the compexity of mapping public transport infrastructure.

I propose to make them optional, and to continue using the common tags for 
marking (or not marking) stop positions, platforms and stations.

Please read and comment on the wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Drop_stop_positions_and_platforms

(After you've read the proposal, there is a small FAQ on the discussion page, 
after a chat in IRC).

Ilya
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging request: missing admin_level tags

[Andrew Hain]

I agree entirely with Dave on this. Consider this a request to consider 
systematically removing the admin_level tag from ways or making it a 
discardable tag only for ways.

--
Andrew


From: Dave F 
Sent: 11 March 2018 23:49:45
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging request: missing admin_level tags

On 11/03/2018 09:51, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
> * tagging the ways in addition to the relation is ok but not required.

I agree with all your points except this. I think duplication is prone
to error & should be discouraged.

DaveF.

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Contractor

[Christopher Baze]

Please vote at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/contractor


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Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[Frank Warner]

I do not map 'craft'. Nor would I map 'profession', 'trade', 'occupation',
'skill', etc.

I try to map physical things, like shops, roads.


A tailor would get supplies from places that sell

fabric

haberdashery


On 18 March 2018 at 13:19, James  wrote:

> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-
> carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-373963431
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shop%3Dtailor
> 10 000 uses
>
> vs
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
> 5000
>
> Should we support both or just one(if so which?)
>
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 17.03.2018 o 11:27, Andy Townsend pisze:

Also "castle:type=manor" hasn't exactly troubled the scorers so far, 
has it?   https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/castle:type=manor 
shows a grand total of _3_.


Yes, that would be easy. =}

But I was talking about castle_type=manor (with an underscore, not a 
colon) - it has 1446 uses, which is less than historic=manor (3 919), 
but bot are in the same range (1k < x <10 k) and the castle_type is 
growing quite fast lately:


https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5439713/37571604-2847f09a-2aff-11e8-8e86-8cb737412766.png

--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 18/03/2018 21:55, Daniel Koć wrote:

W dniu 17.03.2018 o 11:27, Andy Townsend pisze:

Also "castle:type=manor" hasn't exactly troubled the scorers so far, 
has it? https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/castle:type=manor 
shows a grand total of _3_.


Yes, that would be easy. =}

But I was talking about castle_type=manor (with an underscore, not a 
colon) - it has 1446 uses, which is less than historic=manor (3 919), 
but bot are in the same range (1k < x <10 k) and the castle_type is 
growing quite fast lately:


https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5439713/37571604-2847f09a-2aff-11e8-8e86-8cb737412766.png 





Aha!  So you were.  Sorry about that...

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging request: missing admin_level tags

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Andrew Hain
 wrote:
> I agree entirely with Dave on this. Consider this a request to consider 
> systematically removing the admin_level tag from ways or making it a 
> discardable tag only for ways.

I hope that you mean 'ways that are also part of a
boundary=administrative relation.' It's easy to imagine an
administrative region whose border is a single way (it's an island, or
it's an enclave entirely surrounded by another administrative region.
If you mean by this statement that 'an administrative region must
always be a relation,' please make that explicit.

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Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 17.03.2018 o 12:51, Christoph Hormann pisze:


I have mentioned this many times in different situations before: The
purpose of the tag documentation on the wiki is to document actual use
of tags.  This derives from
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like.


This page says nothing about the purpose of Wiki and I don't agree with 
this interpretation (derivation). It just explains that it's good to 
document the usage of tags and why documenting is useful (this is the 
purpose of documenting process), but it does not go too far - let me quote:


"Documenting allows others to find your features or even to correct 
mapping errors they encounter near you.


Documenting is especially useful later on, if someone proposes a tagging 
for the superset of the feature you've been adding. Then your 
experiences and features can be incorporated into that proposal process, 
and in the far out case even be converted to the new scheme, if accepted."


OK - I think it's all true, but how does it help in the case like manor?



If the wiki is
no good you should look at how the tag is actually used and improve the
documentation based on that.  Even if the wiki seems to consistently
describe the meaning of a tag that is not necessarily the actual
meaning of this tag.


The manor case shows that both schemes are used and I can't see the 
difference in wiki meaning. I also don't expect to see the difference in 
the usage - but here's the catch: how should I find such difference? 
Most probably in all cases this is just "a manor" and this is not a 
tagging error, just two competing schemes, both proper and following the 
rules.


Most data consumers could just use both (or pick favored one), but 
osm-carto tries to "prevent unfavorable fragmentation of tag use" by 
design, so I like to know if this fragmentation is really unfavorable - 
or maybe accepted, for example?


My intuition is that Wiki's purpose is to help data consumers find the 
common way of tagging things (for mapping, rendering, analyzing... etc.) 
and just documenting two proper schemes does not fulfill this purpose.


--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging request: missing admin_level tags

[Dave F]

If an enclave then it will share borders so would have to be in a relation.
If an island it's highly likely to have other admin_levels or even be an 
exclave.

-

I'd recommend

 * adding maritime=yes to all required ways that don't have them.
 * adding boundary=administrative relations to ways the require them
 * removing admin_level & boundary=administrative from ways which have
   them in relations


This should be adequate for OSM-Carto to render boundaries as desired. 
however on GitHub, Matthijs claims "there is no way to express that in 
CartoCSS".
This is not a good enough reason to add & use duplicated tags on ways. 
It's been agreed they are redundant.


If Overpass can perform the required API call, why can't CartoCSS be 
coded to do it?:


http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/x7H 

rel"admin_level"="2" 
;

way(r)["maritime"="yes"];
out geom;

DaveF


On 18/03/2018 22:23, Kevin Kenny wrote:

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Andrew Hain
 wrote:

I agree entirely with Dave on this. Consider this a request to consider 
systematically removing the admin_level tag from ways or making it a 
discardable tag only for ways.

I hope that you mean 'ways that are also part of a
boundary=administrative relation.' It's easy to imagine an
administrative region whose border is a single way (it's an island, or
it's an enclave entirely surrounded by another administrative region.
If you mean by this statement that 'an administrative region must
always be a relation,' please make that explicit.

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Re: [Tagging] R: Proposed features - Voting - Hydropower waterways

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

Voting is now over and thank you to all 27 people for their time and
remarks :)
21 pros make the proposal approved at 78%
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hydropower_water_supplies

It's only the begging regarding a few touchy points with interesting
remarks.
All raised concerns will be inserted on wiki pages during clean-up.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging request: missing admin_level tags

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 19 March 2018 at 00:27, Dave F  wrote:
> It's been agreed they are redundant.

Perhaps a bit too early for that statement, please note that the
discussion on the osm-carto side is still ongoing:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3102#issuecomment-374062776

> I'd recommend
>
> adding maritime=yes to all required ways that don't have them.
> adding boundary=administrative relations to ways the require them
> removing admin_level & boundary=administrative from ways which have them in
> relations

Just to be clear, you propose removing boundary=administrative from
maritime borders, but leaving the maritime=yes tag? So this will
result in many ways with the only tag maritime=yes?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Mar 2018, at 22:55, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> 
> castle_type=manor (with an underscore, not a colon) - it has 1446 uses, which 
> is less than historic=manor (3 919), but bot are in the same range (1k < x 
> <10 k)


actually castle_type=manor is in the 300-2400 range, while historic=manor in 
the 2400-19200 range, and it has more than double the usage ;-)


I don’t follow the 2 tags are easier than 1  tag philosophy, especially as the 
2 usually contain at least one key that is only used in a very narrow field 
(like castle_type here), and as not all specific things that are squeezed into 
a generic term (here castle) will typically be considered instances of “term” 
(you can see this also in tower:type).


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 19.03.2018 o 02:40, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:


actually castle_type=manor is in the 300-2400 range, while historic=manor in 
the 2400-19200 range, and it has more than double the usage ;-)


:-D

I meant the same order of magnitude.


I don’t follow the 2 tags are easier than 1  tag philosophy, especially as the 
2 usually contain at least one key that is only used in a very narrow field 
(like castle_type here), and as not all specific things that are squeezed into 
a generic term (here castle) will typically be considered instances of “term” 
(you can see this also in tower:type).


It's not "easier" in general - for example more typing is harder, of 
course. It's just easier to categorize when tagging ("is it stately or 
manor? Well, historic=palace covers both") and rendering ("I will cover 
the historic=castle with one generic icon, at least all the subtypes 
will be visible").


But this is not my main concern. I want to know what to do with two 
proper schemes documented on the Wiki which apparently describe the same 
type of object - no matter if it's expressed with one or more tags.


--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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