Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Fire Hydrant Extensions)

[Moritz]

No, I didn't concact them individually yet. Moritz, can you do it?\


Will do.

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[Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Marc Zoutendijk]

Hi all,

Recently I discovered a tagging where at the same street address and house 
number, 3 different (although related) companies  are located. 
Because adding multiple values to the same key is not easy to do in OSM, 
(mostly used for adding more telephone numbers, separating the numbers with a 
semicolon), and in this case the mapper had chosen to simply add three nodes 
and duplicate all the relevant address tags.
Because all three companies had an office=research tag and because the office 
tag is not rendered at all on the standard map(!!) but only shows the 
addr:housenumber (when present), the above described tagging resulted in 
showing 3 times the same address node on the map. Which by definition is wrong 
because a given street address (addr:city + addr:street + addr:postcode + 
addr:housenumber) _must be unique_ - at least in the country (The Netherlands) 
where I live and where I found this situation.

In The Netherlands _all_ buildings and the related address nodes were (and 
still are) imported in a huge import (BAG) which was discussed years ago and 
also presented in a wiki:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BAGimport 


Dutch mappers usually add POI information (like a shop, restaurant, hotel etc. 
) to an existing address node and usually this works well, except when we face 
the situation where more objects share that very same address. E.g. it is not 
uncommon to have a hotel and a bar share the same building and address. In this 
case the hotel is added to the (existing) address node and a new node is 
created for the bar, but without the address information and this node is 
simply put within the contour of the hotel building.

The situation I’m describing here, with 3 research offices all sharing the same 
address would (could?) lead to tagging like this:

addr:street=streetname
addr:housenumber=X
office=research
name=“name of first office”;”name of second office”;”name of third office”
webiste=“website-1”;“website-2”;“website-3”
phone=“phonenumber-1”;“phonenumber-1”;“phonenumber-1”


Which wouldn’t be my choice of solving this problem, suppose the values for 
office would differ as well, this would give even more complicated tag 
combinations. Maintaining/checking it would be cumbersome.
How to render this mess?

Other solutions have been presented over the years in various wikis, forums and 
mailing-lists, but a satisfactory solution still has to be found, hence my 
question to continue reading and study this proposal that was done in 2011:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/associatedAddress 


I wrote the mapper who proposed this a PM and he replied with the message that 
he is no longer very active on OSM.
I have used this proposed relation for the tagging of the 3 named offices here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7676306 


Of course because this is an unsupported type of relation, nothing shows on the 
map, save the (one) house number, but here you can see the situation as it was 
before I added my changes:

https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/vgHPvYALM4p7n6t 


With tools like OpenPoiMap you can see some results, but because the address 
tags are removed you have to guess that those 3 offices share the same address:
http://openpoimap.org/?map=various&zoom=18&lat=52.81317&lon=6.39542&layers=B00TFFF


I must say that this way of tagging (with a relation) looks quite clear to me, 
is easy to do and opens up many possibilities. But is it easy to render once 
accepted? 

Hence:

1. Should we continue and discuss and finally vote for the proposal mentioned 
above?
2. Can you think of another solution for this specific problem: “how to map/tag 
multiple (sometimes even not related) objects to the same (one) address node?”

Thanks for any input,
Marc.





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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 26. 10. 17 à 17:01, Marc Zoutendijk a écrit :
> Recently I discovered a tagging where at the same street address and 
> house number, 3 different (although related) companies  are located.
The solution that advocates the proposal you mentioned is to put the 
address on the building and put the 3 POI in the building (without address).
However, except nominatim, no tool I know is able to display the POI 
address when selected, I think this need to be improved.
Due to this, in France, some "decided" that POI addresses were prefixed 
by the "contact" namespace, in order to make them unique and different 
from the "postal" addresses of the buildings. However, this is different 
from the meaning given on the wiki for whom contact: is only an alias to 
the other keys.

> office=research
> name=“name of first office”;”name of second office”;”name of third office”
> webiste=“website-1”;“website-2”;“website-3”

it this case (same office value) it work but it 'll become very ugly
if a building contain a research, a bar and another office
therefore I think it's better to move each POI to its own node/way

> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/associatedAddress
> 1. Should we continue and discuss and finally vote for the proposal 
> mentioned above?

I think it is necessary to first improve the simple (and more common) 
case support (a building with an address and several POIs) before adding 
a relationship that covers cases in my opinion quite rare (I do not not 
yet met even though I do not doubt it exists)

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Andrew Harvey]

> Which by definition is wrong because a given street address (addr:city +
addr:street + addr:postcode + addr:housenumber) _must be unique_ - at least
in the country (The Netherlands) where I live and where I found this
situation.

Honest question, what is lost or wrong with having the address appear on
multiple objects?

In this case the address tags are simply supporting the primary key (shop=,
or office=, or amenity=, etc) to note the address of that entity. The
address tags can also go on the building and/or parcel of land.

On 27 October 2017 at 02:01, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Recently I discovered a tagging where at the same street address and house
> number, 3 different (although related) companies  are located.
> Because adding multiple values to the same key is not easy to do in OSM,
> (mostly used for adding more telephone numbers, separating the numbers with
> a semicolon), and in this case the mapper had chosen to simply add three
> nodes and duplicate all the relevant address tags.
> Because all three companies had an office=research tag and because the
> office tag is not rendered at all on the standard map(!!) but only shows
> the addr:housenumber (when present), the above described tagging resulted
> in showing 3 times the same address node on the map. Which by definition is
> wrong because a given street address (addr:city + addr:street +
> addr:postcode + addr:housenumber) _must be unique_ - at least in the
> country (The Netherlands) where I live and where I found this situation.
>
> In The Netherlands _all_ buildings and the related address nodes were (and
> still are) imported in a huge import (BAG) which was discussed years ago
> and also presented in a wiki:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BAGimport
>
> Dutch mappers usually add POI information (like a shop, restaurant, hotel
> etc. ) to an existing address node and usually this works well, except when
> we face the situation where more objects share that very same address. E.g.
> it is not uncommon to have a hotel and a bar share the same building and
> address. In this case the hotel is added to the (existing) address node and
> a new node is created for the bar, but without the address information and
> this node is simply put within the contour of the hotel building.
>
> The situation I’m describing here, with 3 research offices all sharing the
> same address would (could?) lead to tagging like this:
>
> addr:street=streetname
> addr:housenumber=X
> office=research
> name=“name of first office”;”name of second office”;”name of third office”
> webiste=“website-1”;“website-2”;“website-3”
> phone=“phonenumber-1”;“phonenumber-1”;“phonenumber-1”
>
>
> Which wouldn’t be my choice of solving this problem, suppose the values
> for office would differ as well, this would give even more complicated tag
> combinations. Maintaining/checking it would be cumbersome.
> How to render this mess?
>
> Other solutions have been presented over the years in various wikis,
> forums and mailing-lists, but a satisfactory solution still has to be
> found, hence my question to continue reading and study this proposal that
> was done in 2011:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/associatedAddress
>
> I wrote the mapper who proposed this a PM and he replied with the message
> that he is no longer very active on OSM.
> I have used this proposed relation for the tagging of the 3 named offices
> here:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7676306
>
> Of course because this is an unsupported type of relation, nothing shows
> on the map, save the (one) house number, but here you can see the situation
> as it was before I added my changes:
>
> https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/vgHPvYALM4p7n6t
>
> With tools like OpenPoiMap you can see some results, but because the
> address tags are removed you have to guess that those 3 offices share the
> same address:
> http://openpoimap.org/?map=various&zoom=18&lat=52.81317&;
> lon=6.39542&layers=B00TFFF
>
>
> I must say that this way of tagging (with a relation) looks quite clear to
> me, is easy to do and opens up many possibilities. But is it easy to render
> once accepted?
>
> Hence:
>
> 1. Should we continue and discuss and finally vote for the proposal
> mentioned above?
> 2. Can you think of another solution for this specific problem: “how to
> map/tag multiple (sometimes even not related) objects to the same (one)
> address node?”
>
> Thanks for any input,
> Marc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

>  resulted in showing 3 times the same address node on the map. Which by
>> definition is wrong because a given street address (addr:city + addr:street
>> + addr:postcode + addr:housenumber) _must be unique_ - at least in the
>> country (The Netherlands) where I live and where I found this situation.
>>
>
Would an easy solution be to just call them Unit 1, Unit 2 & Unit 3, even
though the actual offices may not be physically designated that way?

How do you work addresses / POIs when you have someone work from home? EG
it is a normal residential building, in a residential suburb, but the front
room is also an "accountant's" office, with a business name, separate phone
number etc?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 26.10.2017 23:49, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Would an easy solution be to just call them Unit 1, Unit 2 & Unit 3, even though the actual offices 
may not be physically designated that way?


Absolutely not. Please do not invent identifiers that do not exist in reality. Further, it would not 
solve the problem, having 3 units is not different from having 3 offices.


On 26.10.2017 17:01, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> Recently I discovered a tagging where at the same street address and house 
number, 3 different
> (although related) companies  are located.

The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 offices, 3 nodes.

> the office tag is not rendered at all on the standard map ...showing 3 times the same address 
node on the map


That does not matter. If they render the housenumber 3 times, file a ticket in carto. Rendering 
office values is being discussed there already.


> Which by definition is wrong because a given street address _must be
> unique_ - at least in the country (The Netherlands) where I live and where I 
found this situation.

First you would need to check the exact wording of this definition (do you have a source?), probably 
it says that the address per house must be unique. It unlikely says that there cannot be multiple 
entities in this house.


The OSM address tagging is a closer description of the entity, in this case the offices, which are 
all in the same house, thus have the same address.


> E.g. it is not uncommon to have a hotel and a bar share the same building
> and address. In this case the hotel is added to the (existing) address node 
and a new node is
> created for the bar,

This is fine as the hotel is the major feature and the bar is subordinated.

> but without the address information and this node is simply put within the contour of the hotel 
building.


This is fine, and it does not hurt to have the address on the bar as well.

> name=“name of first office”;”name of second office”;”name of third office”

Aaargh, no, please. One feature, one OSM element

> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/associatedAddress

Isn't that a dead horse?

On 26.10.2017 23:12, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> Honest question, what is lost or wrong with having the address appear on 
multiple objects?

Honest answer - nothing wrong, fine for me. One feature, one OSM element.

On 26.10.2017 23:49, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> How do you work addresses / POIs when you have someone work from home? EG it is a normal 
residential building, in a residential suburb, but the front room is also an "accountant's" office


way: building=residential as this is the major feature
node within the building: office=* since this is subordinated (if that is a real office, e.g. 
receiving visitors, not just a private room to work in)


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Andrew Davidson]

On 27/10/17 11:20, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 offices, 
3 nodes.


So 1 address 1 node (or 1 polygon if you know the spatial extent)?

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Warin]

1 address on a site relation that contains these features - including 
the building?


On 27-Oct-17 12:31 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:



On 27/10/17 11:20, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 
offices, 3 nodes.


So 1 address 1 node (or 1 polygon if you know the spatial extent)?

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Andrew Davidson]

Two problems:

1. Site relations are for grouping features that can't be represented as 
an area.

2. The KISS principle.

On 27/10/17 13:01, Warin wrote:
1 address on a site relation that contains these features - including 
the building?


On 27-Oct-17 12:31 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:



On 27/10/17 11:20, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 
offices, 3 nodes.


So 1 address 1 node (or 1 polygon if you know the spatial extent)?

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Colin Smale]

Time for a more philosophical discussion... What is the function of this
thing we call "address"? Is it to identify a premises? Is it to describe
a premises? Does it refer to the whole premises, or just the bit with
the front door or letter box? Or is it "where to deliver post"? 

Here in NL buildings all have unique numbers in a big register, and
there is a n..m mapping between addresses and buildings. Only enclosed
constructions "where a person can stand" are counted as buildings. An
address can include sub-units like "167A" or "23-3" (third floor flat
for example). If there are multiple households or organisations sharing
the same letter box, they have the same address. So you can say the
address is a logical concept, not a physical one. So no problems with
having multiple nodes with the same address if they represent different
organisations.

//colin 

On 2017-10-27 03:31, Andrew Davidson wrote:

> On 27/10/17 11:20, Tom Pfeifer wrote: 
> 
>> The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 offices, 3 
>> nodes.
> 
> So 1 address 1 node (or 1 polygon if you know the spatial extent)?
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[José G Moya Y .]

But from the outside tou can't see if the office is in "Gran Via 1 shop 2"
or "Gran Via 1 shop 3", despite of the shop number being displayed in the
mailbox.

El 27/10/2017 8:03, "Colin Smale"  escribió:

> Time for a more philosophical discussion... What is the function of this
> thing we call "address"? Is it to identify a premises? Is it to describe a
> premises? Does it refer to the whole premises, or just the bit with the
> front door or letter box? Or is it "where to deliver post"?
>
> Here in NL buildings all have unique numbers in a big register, and there
> is a n..m mapping between addresses and buildings. Only enclosed
> constructions "where a person can stand" are counted as buildings. An
> address can include sub-units like "167A" or "23-3" (third floor flat for
> example). If there are multiple households or organisations sharing the
> same letter box, they have the same address. So you can say the address is
> a logical concept, not a physical one. So no problems with having multiple
> nodes with the same address if they represent different organisations.
>
>
> //colin
>
> On 2017-10-27 03:31, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>
>
>
> On 27/10/17 11:20, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
>
> The OSM rule is clear - "One feature, one OSM element". Thus 3 offices, 3
> nodes.
>
>
> So 1 address 1 node (or 1 polygon if you know the spatial extent)?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-10-27 08:07, José G Moya Y. wrote:

> But from the outside tou can't see if the office is in "Gran Via 1 shop 2" or 
> "Gran Via 1 shop 3", despite of the shop number being displayed in the 
> mailbox.

The fact that you can't see it from the outside doesn't make it untrue.
Maybe it is verifiable in another way. Is it possible that the "shop 2"
and "shop 3" labels are an informal thing between the shopkeepers, and
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