Re: [Tagging] Mapping of Subway Stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi Michael,


Am 2017-09-24 um 10:49 schrieb Ilya Zverev:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping


I don't understand what's the aim of your "proposal". There are almost
no new tags. Is it intended as a write-up of what could and should be
mapped and tagged and how that should happen?


The proposal indeed does not introduce any new tags. But it proposes a 
tagging schema that has not been documented anywhere in the wiki. I 
framed it as a proposal to get opinions of other mappers and to make it 
a written standard on metro mapping, so I could link to it people who 
map their subway.


Also it would be a handy guide for software authors that want to make 
use of our data. Having looked at the state of metro systems, I can 
safely say that no single app had been using our subway data for 
anything but highlighting ways in route relations.



It is a good write-up, it gives a good overview but does not answer the
questions of the differences between railway=subway, railway=train,
railway=light_rail and railway=tram.


Why should it? The railway=light_rail page does enough answering, and 
the distinction is usually clear on subway maps.



I am not against a long and structured write-up for mapping public
transport but I would prefer if people would invest the time into
cleaning up existing pages on the wiki. There is already an overview
page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport
I started cleaning it up (based on the German version which was cleaned
up and reviewed more than a year ago).


Great, you are doing a good job. But don't you think this is like saying 
"why are you mapping that city when you should be mapping this one"? I 
am interested in subway mapping, and unlike any other mode of 
transportation, it is very complex, so I decided it needs to be 
described on a single page, with links.



I thought that stop_area_group is a dead branch of the "Oxomoa" public
transport tagging scheme which influenced the current tagging scheme (I
prefer the term PTv2 – Public Transport version 2 – for it), isn't it?


Nope. Nobody declared it dead, people just forgot about it. Somebody 
simply merged stop_area and stop_area_group into a single stop_area 
relation, and subsequently people started making 100+-member stop_areas 
with EVERYTHING. It does not make using these simpler.


I am okay with having a mess for stop_areas for overground transport, 
but underground infrastructure has to be more... structured.



Adhering to this document would greatly simplify using subway data from
OpenStreetMap in applications — both for multi-modal routing and for
formatting pretty schemes.


That's a goal everyone had who wrote a tagging guide or proposal for
public transport. The key problem is a lack of guidance by tools using
the data. While other topics have lots of map styles/routing engines and
quality assurance tools, public transport has only very few tools which
are up to date and still maintained. (I currently work on public
transport validator)


We in maps.me are currently working on public transport routing, 
starting with subways. And using the data for subways proved to be 
harder than the public transport schema suggested.



https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping writes:
If you know the location and length of a platform for a subway station, map it as a way Way. Using a node is pretty meaningless, and drawing a platform as an area is an overkill, though possible. You can see an example of such thoroughly drawn platforms here. 


A way is better than nothing but if a mapper is able to draw an area
because the station is pretty simple or he used a laser distance meter
[1], this should not hinder him to draw an area.


Okay, thanks, changed that. Though we don't have many mappers with laser 
distance meters, right?



https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping writes:

The modern public transport tagging schema introduces stop positions: points on 
rails where trains actually stop. These should be placed in the middle of a 
hypothetical train, that is, near the center of the platform.


Adding them always near the centre of the platform is wrong and useless.
A machine could that do, too. From my point of view they should be added
where the centre of the train is.


Okay, clarified this in the proposal.


I am not a fan of stop_area_group relations. They tend to be collective
relations (like stop area relations). The practical use of
stop_area_group relations is limited.


And I think, subway mapping is exactly the case where stop_area_group 
relations are useful. Because not each of 157 metro systems has an 
openly licensed GTFS feed providing these virtual connections. And it is 
not hard to provide these in OSM, just by creating stop_area_group 
relations. You cannot derive these from footways either, because only a 
few cities have that thoroughly drawn stations, and even these are not 
mapped consistently. This task is definite

Re: [Tagging] Mapping of Subway Stations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 9:46 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :

>
> A way is better than nothing but if a mapper is able to draw an area
>> because the station is pretty simple or he used a laser distance meter
>> [1], this should not hinder him to draw an area.
>>
>
> Okay, thanks, changed that. Though we don't have many mappers with laser
> distance meters, right?




there is sometimes another possibility to map detailed areas: maps with
compatible license / open data from the pt operator or the city. Areas are
more useful when you look at a high scale map, as it helps to recognize
where you are, and where amenities are, to orient yourself (e.g. shops /
fast food, escalators, elevators, obstacles, etc.). With a linear way you
have these "levitating" around the way and don't know if they are
accessible or just nearby.




>
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping writes:
>>
>>> The modern public transport tagging schema introduces stop positions:
>>> points on rails where trains actually stop. These should be placed in the
>>> middle of a hypothetical train, that is, near the center of the platform.
>>>
>>
>> Adding them always near the centre of the platform is wrong and useless.
>> A machine could that do, too. From my point of view they should be added
>> where the centre of the train is.
>>
>
> Okay, clarified this in the proposal.



I think in the end we should have more than one stop position, if applying,
e.g one for "regular trains" one for "short trains" (in Berlin for
example), with tagging that says which is which.


Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Mark Bradley]

In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I'm looking for suggestions on
how to tag these.  A type of landuse?

 

Mark

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[Tagging] Deprecating shop=doors

[williaug GC]

Hello OSM community. Recently I stumbled upon the tag shop=doors in Taginfo. 
The tag craft=window_construction is used more than five times as often as 
shop=doors and as the wiki clearly points out that craft=window_construction 
can be used on a company that manufacters windows AND doors, I think shop=doors 
should be marked as deprecated. 
If we decide to deprecate the tag, the wiki page of craft=window_construction 
should be modified a bit so the text says that it can be used for a company 
producing windows and/or doors. Do you agree to deprecate it?___
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Micah Cochran]

Would this be some form of a farmers' co-ops  or agricultural cooperative?
 (The Wikipedia article notes a few different meanings to this term.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_cooperative

I briefly looked and found someone tagged a local farmer's co-op as a
building (in Alabama), which it is only one building facility.

building=yes
shop=trade
trade=agricultural_supplies


That may not work quite as well for a multi-building scenario.

Micah

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Bradley 
wrote:

> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I’m talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the
> Wiki seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I’m looking for suggestions
> on how to tag these.  A type of landuse?
>
>
>
> Mark
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Mark Bradley 
wrote:

> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I’m talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the
> Wiki seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I’m looking for suggestions
> on how to tag these.  A type of landuse?
>

Would http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian do it? I don't
think there's anything that presumes a 'shop' must be a single building, or
even located in a building.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:53:36PM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
> seem to fit to describe these facilities.

I think that you have missed:
   shop=trade
   trade=agricultural_supplies
which seems to fit very well with what you describe.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade , although I
don't know why the wiki page restricts it to equipment: it shouldn't.

ael



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:21:29PM -0500, Micah Cochran wrote:
> Would this be some form of a farmers' co-ops  or agricultural cooperative?
>  (The Wikipedia article notes a few different meanings to this term.)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_cooperative
> 
> I briefly looked and found someone tagged a local farmer's co-op as a
> building (in Alabama), which it is only one building facility.
> 
> building=yes
> shop=trade
> trade=agricultural_supplies
> 
> 
> That may not work quite as well for a multi-building scenario.

No, it was always intended to cover such places as well. I should
declare an interest. I originated that tag.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pool facilities

[José G Moya Y .]

Hi.
It seems this conversation ended without an approval.

That's a pity. I really can't understand the world divided in "sport
swimming facilities" and "water parks". In Spain, we understand a "sport
swimming facility" like that containing swimming pools that open 365 days,
and where you can't really for pure recreation. Their lanes are not
suggested paths, but forced ways.

On the other way, there are "water parks" full of fun water slides. But
these are huge, mostly private, run facilities (though I know of a public
one in Haro, La Rioja).

Apart from these, there are the (summer) public swimming pools, where you
can do swimming for sport (if you don't mind to find people crossing though
your lane), but are most used for fun.

And there are also the standard private swimming pools, placed inside a
leisure=garden access=private.

Anyway, I will accept the resulta an I will turn my home village swimming
pool facility into a leisure=sports_centre, since it does not contain
slides, and despite it contains a small pool for children that is not
available for sport swimming (unless you can turn around in 50 cm). Well, I
remember the sports & education representative for the province saying some
words at the opening, so maybe it was really funded from the sports budget
as a "sports facility".

The main use of the out-of-water space is sunbathing and drinking beer. May
I suggest new sport=sunbathing tag? ;-)

Oh, I can't wait the return of summer! Regards!




2017-09-18 15:32 GMT+02:00 José G Moya Y. :

> Hi!
>
> A park with s Pool with lanes => sports_centre.
> A park with trampoline, ramps, pools=> water_park
> A park with umbrellas and a pool where you have to pay a fee to enter the
> park itself (so you have to map the park, its access and its access
> conditions)=> park???
>  It's ridiculous! That's why I support this proposal.
>
> El 18/9/2017 13:18, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>> On 18-Sep-17 07:33 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 10:56:59 +0200
>>> Selfish Seahorse  wrote:
>>>
 On 18 September 2017 at 09:42, Jean-Marc Liotier 
 wrote:

> "sport=swimming for a centre containing one or more swimming pools
> that is mainly focussed on swimming as a sport, including swimming
> lessons. Use however leisure=swimming_pool to indicate the water
> areas"
>
 This conflicts a bit with the definition of sports centre being a
 'distinct facility where a *range of sports* take place'.

>>> Hello semi-colon value separator !
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator
>>>
>>> sport=swimming;water_polo;fitness;scuba_diving
>>>
>>
>> Your forgetting that swimming sports themselves can be separated up in to
>> categorise;
>>  butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, freestyle, medley and then relay.
>> Same with the sport running.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
 Apart from that, as José mentioned, the main problem is that sports
 centre does not seem to be appropriate for an outdoor swimming pool
 facility that is mainly used for recreation but doesn't meet the
 criteria of a water park.

>>> Lounging & splashing around is a common use of sport swimming
>>> facilities, but their designed use remains swimming as a sport. If it
>>> has swimming lanes, it is definitely part of sport=swimming. If it
>>> doesn't have swimming lanes, then it may lean on the side of the
>>> leisure=water_park
>>>
>>>
>> Where I have found pools with no lane marking then I have tagged
>> leisure=swimming_pool but no sport=* tag.
>> There are 'pools' too shallow for swimming too, those might be better to
>> have another tag?
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Warin]

On 26-Sep-17 06:30 AM, ael wrote:

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:53:36PM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:

In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.

I think that you have missed:
shop=trade
trade=agricultural_supplies
which seems to fit very well with what you describe.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade , although I
don't know why the wiki page restricts it to equipment: it shouldn't.



For the area

landuse=retail

As it is for selling stuff.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[John F. Eldredge]

Here in Nashville, Tennessee, the state government has a large facility 
called Ellington Agricultural Center 
. It is not an 
agricultural-supply business such as you described, but rather the 
headquarters of the Tennessee Dept. of Agriculture, including offices, a 
museum, an experimental farm, etc. I would not be surprised if there are 
such government agricultural centers elsewhere in the US and around the world.





On September 25, 2017 1:54:55 PM "Mark Bradley" 
 wrote:



In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I'm looking for suggestions on
how to tag these.  A type of landuse?



Mark




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