Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores
Javbw > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote: > > AFAIK, Ace Hardware stores do not carry a wide enough assortment of items to > qualify. Lowes and Home Depot do. +1 A hardware store sells tools and consumables (screws, glue, paint, etc) as the main focus of the store. A DIY store sells you the thing - or the materials to make the thing, and the consumables and the tools. A hardware store sells a power saw, the blades, screws and sandpaper. A DIY store sells you the 200 pieces of lumber, concrete, and buckets of sealant to make a deck. In Japan, the big chain "Home Depots" - Joyful Honda - have DIY put on the side of the buildings. Smaller shops dedicated to tools - the proverbial hardware shops - sell hand and power tools, specialty consumables (tapes, screws, bolts, etc) and other small, pricey supplies a person needs. They sell the tools to install a toilet - washers and gaskets to fix a toilet - but not the actual toilets, Sheetrock, lumber, tile, and piping to actually make a bathroom. I visit both, both in the US and Japan. The supermarket vs convenience store comparison is not comparable - it is about tools and consumables to make the food, not the food itself. A convenience store sells finished food. A super market sells finished food and ingredients. To compare hardware vs DIY stores: A "hardware" store sells stoves, pans and knives and spices, and some wax paper and whatnot. A "DIY store" sells the stoves, the pans, the spices - and 10 lb bags of sugar, and 30kg of rice, and 5 gallon buckets of tomato paste. As long as we can map the *focus* of the store, this should be an easy distinction to make. But it might entail mapping a bunch of "home stores" as DIY. This will also limit hardware stores, but his is correct - as "hardware" and "tools" are usually just sections in a DIY store and all the hardware chain shops closed. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores
Are we writing our own dictionary? What's wrong with the OED? If everybody just says what they understand to be the definition, what are we going to do, have a vote on it? Then the US English speakers will probably win because there are more of them. Why not just save time by killing the discussion and using a published, acknowledged dictionary definition. OSM tradition is to use English (i.e. not American English) so let's start here: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/hardware http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/diy The fact that there are two lemmas shows that there is a difference, however subtle. What I have discerned is that DIY is by definition aimed at amateurs, whereas a hardware shop sells stuff that may be used by professional tradesmen as well as DIYers. YMMV. On the other hand, if there is no clear distinction, they can be considered synonymous and therefore can share a tag. //colin On 2016-02-10 14:33, John Willis wrote: > Javbw > >> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote: >> >> AFAIK, Ace Hardware stores do not carry a wide enough assortment of items to >> qualify. Lowes and Home Depot do. > > +1 > > A hardware store sells tools and consumables (screws, glue, paint, etc) as > the main focus of the store. > > A DIY store sells you the thing - or the materials to make the thing, and the > consumables and the tools. > > A hardware store sells a power saw, the blades, screws and sandpaper. > > A DIY store sells you the 200 pieces of lumber, concrete, and buckets of > sealant to make a deck. > > In Japan, the big chain "Home Depots" - Joyful Honda - have DIY put on the > side of the buildings. Smaller shops dedicated to tools - the proverbial > hardware shops - sell hand and power tools, specialty consumables (tapes, > screws, bolts, etc) and other small, pricey supplies a person needs. They > sell the tools to install a toilet - washers and gaskets to fix a toilet - > but not the actual toilets, Sheetrock, lumber, tile, and piping to actually > make a bathroom. > > I visit both, both in the US and Japan. > > The supermarket vs convenience store comparison is not comparable - it is > about tools and consumables to make the food, not the food itself. > > A convenience store sells finished food. A super market sells finished food > and ingredients. > > To compare hardware vs DIY stores: > > A "hardware" store sells stoves, pans and knives and spices, and some wax > paper and whatnot. > > A "DIY store" sells the stoves, the pans, the spices - and 10 lb bags of > sugar, and 30kg of rice, and 5 gallon buckets of tomato paste. > > As long as we can map the *focus* of the store, this should be an easy > distinction to make. But it might entail mapping a bunch of "home stores" as > DIY. > > This will also limit hardware stores, but his is correct - as "hardware" and > "tools" are usually just sections in a DIY store and all the hardware chain > shops closed. > > Javbw. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Path with permit required for bikes?
I think bicycle=private + access=permissive would be the right choice. private means, that the path is owned by someone and you are not allowed to use it unless the owner gives you a permission. Permissive if the path is owned by a private person but you don't have to ask for permission. That's what I understood so far. Maybe add a note that you can ask for permission 2016-02-09 14:56 GMT-07:00 : > There a charity woodland near Henley in Arden that opens up its paths > under a permissive access, but at each entry point you are told you have to > apply for access to the site office first. Probably just to give you a > health and safety disclaimer. > > Wasn't sure how to map it, I've done it as Permissive currently. > > Jonathan > bigfatfrog67 > > *From:* Richard Fairhurst > *Sent:* Tuesday, 9 February 2016 11:25 > *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools > > > Hi all, > > An important part of the Pacific Coast Bicycle Route now requires > cyclists to get a permit: > > > http://www.examiner.com/article/cycling-through-camp-pendleton-is-changing > https://mccscp.wufoo.com/forms/camp-pendleton-bike-route-access-form/ > > How should this be tagged? > > It's not quite 'bicycle=permissive' - that's generally used to imply > that bikes are allowed in by goodwill of the landowner but don't have to > book, whereas in this case a permit has to be expressly applied for. > > Some possibilities: > > reservation:bicycle=required > bicycle=permit > bicycle=license > [little used, but see > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dlicense] > > (Incidentally, =license should of course be =licence, because the lingua > franca of OSM is British English. ;) ) > > cheers > Richard > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Path with permit required for bikes?
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > An important part of the Pacific Coast Bicycle Route now requires cyclists > to get a permit: > It's not quite 'bicycle=permissive' - that's generally used to imply that > bikes are allowed in by goodwill of the landowner but don't have to book, If we could stick to the original list of values, that does look like 'private' to me: the land owner has the right to ban access and has used that right, and only those who know they have a permission from the land owner may use it. "If you don't know better, you can't cycle there." The fact that/if they generally don't refuse the individual permit when applied for in advance (assuming you're a US citizen) isn't relevant for the actual access/bicycle tag, but should be recorded with some other tag; your idea of reservation:bicycle=required is as good as any other so far. Or: private:bicycle:licence=MCB CAMPEN Bike Route Which identifies the ways where the permit is valid, and gives something to search for if nobody starts a site listing contact points for various licence issuers, and tells the reader that the tagged licence relates to cycling, and to the fact that a group of cyclists exists holding licences from the owner of the private area. I'd guess that the details of who can get a licence and how fast - not just there but globally in similar situations - are so complex that at best the ways would have incomplete, unusable data and consumers would still need to check directly with the permit issuer to see if they're eligible. If there's ever a case for overlapping licences, semicolons, multi value keys and relations can be (again) discussed ad infinitum. -- alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Path with permit required for bikes?
In my view tou cannot put private and permissive access at the same time - they are mutually exclusive. Anyway in the specific case the situation is more complicated: From 01-03 2016 the access situation for cyclists at Camp Pendleton will change. If you are a US citizen with a clean criminal record, you can pass through Camp Pendelton provided you have requested permission beforehand on a web site. The permit is valid for one year "Non-U.S. citizens will require a sponsor. A sponsor should be someone known to a rider. Sponsors have the responsibly to vouch for those they are requesting to gain access to this military facility For cyclists who do not register in advance or who are not eligible to receive access to the base, you may legally ride on the shoulder of I-5 between Las Pulgas Rd. and Oceanside (Exits 62 to 54). For safety reasons, cyclists should exit and re-enter the freeway at the Aliso Creek Rest Area about midway through this stretch." (quote from ACA announcement of the closure) I am not sure that the exits are correct as Las Pulgas Road is on the Camp itself. Volker On 10 February 2016 at 18:12, Christian Pietzsch < christian.pietz...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think bicycle=private + access=permissive would be the right choice. > private means, that the path is owned by someone and you are not allowed > to use it unless the owner gives you a permission. Permissive if the path > is owned by a private person but you don't have to ask for permission. > That's what I understood so far. Maybe add a note that you can ask for > permission > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Path with permit required for bikes?
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 10:12:06 -0700 Christian Pietzsch wrote: > I think bicycle=private + access=permissive would be the right choice. It would mean that everything except cyclists have free entry and in case of bicycles individual permission is required. Is there really free entry for everybody and everything except cyclists? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Path with permit required for bikes?
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 19:30:39 +0200 Lauri Kytömaa wrote: > Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > An important part of the Pacific Coast Bicycle Route now requires > > cyclists to get a permit: > > It's not quite 'bicycle=permissive' - that's generally used to > > imply that bikes are allowed in by goodwill of the landowner but > > don't have to book, > > If we could stick to the original list of values, that does look like > 'private' to me: the land owner has the right to ban access and > has used that right, and only those who know they have a > permission from the land owner may use it. "If you don't know > better, you can't cycle there." > > The fact that/if they generally don't refuse the individual permit > when applied for in advance (assuming you're a US citizen) isn't > relevant for the actual access/bicycle tag, but should be recorded > with some other tag; your idea of > reservation:bicycle=required is as good as any other so far. Or: > > private:bicycle:licence=MCB CAMPEN Bike Route > > Which identifies the ways where the permit is valid, and gives > something to search for if nobody starts a site listing contact > points for various licence issuers, and tells the reader that the > tagged licence relates to cycling, and to the fact that a group > of cyclists exists holding licences from the owner of the private > area. I'd guess that the details of who can get a licence and how > fast - not just there but globally in similar situations - are so > complex that at best the ways would have incomplete, unusable > data and consumers would still need to check directly with the > permit issuer to see if they're eligible. > > If there's ever a case for overlapping licences, semicolons, > multi value keys and relations can be (again) discussed > ad infinitum. > Yes, =private seems fitting. Additional tags may be added to cover that permit may be acquired (potentially also - how and where). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums
John Eldredge writes: > There is a large art museum in Washington, DC, named the National Gallery. Yes, but it's a museum that happens to have gallery in the name :-) We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that happen to use the same words. signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
