Re: [Tagging] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in favor of relations

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Earl 
> wrote:
>
>> There are lots of places where it would help to group things uniquely
>> rather than by a simple text string. Names are the obvious next one. If we
>> put the names on a separate shared object, you can then tell when they are
>> actually the same street, or whatever, rather than just a coincidence.
>> There are two entirely separate Love Lane in Cambridge, for example, and
>> many High Street all over the place. How do you know they are the same,
>> especially if they don't all interconnect, or conversely they do, but are
>> actually different.
>>
>
> There are already relations for that, a street-relation [1] or
> associatedStreet-relation [2]. There was a huge discussion all over OSM
> earlier this year about the benefits/drawback of such a relation. Or was it
> last year ? Similar arguments: too difficult to deal with, simple data
> consumers would no longer see the address. On the other hand, the
> consistency like you point out.
>

I see associatedStreet as a nicer solution for dealing with organizing
objects relevant to the right of way itself, but feel it's kind of a reach
to try to have it replace the Karlsruhe convention for addressing.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Eldredge]

The name in this case is for the signal, not the junction. Could you have a 
named signal at a named junction, with different names?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On November 6, 2015 2:58:02 AM Andrew Errington  wrote:


We already use junction=yes for named junctions.  Why is another tag needed?

On 06/11/2015, Gerd Petermann  wrote:

wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.

I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.

My understanding so far:

- In Japan (and maybe other countries),

you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name

- Complex junctions often require several nodes with
highway=traffic_signals,

at least for the routing.


My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,

maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.

A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.


 Gerd




Von: John Willis 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions





Javbw
On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar
mailto:sea...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I'd suggest to use a node tagged

place=junction

with name=* or ref=*

for this. What do you think?

From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they
actually name the signals themselves.
I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the
Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography
used is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on
tertiary roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting
*unnamed* signals and occasionally using named signals.

The big problem traffic_signals_area
was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.

Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with
access directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to
drive through before turning and reaching a destination from a known
landmark (highway exit, train station).

Here is the access map for a very large park.

http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png

Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.

Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is
usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions
(actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent
placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard.
Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or
more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more
important that almost all place names.

This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and
Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map*
in Japan.

Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that
doesn't cover the road.

https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2

OSM has no rendered icons.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.

Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901

Now icons - but two of them, with label.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986

Next, 4 icons - no label
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949

Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.

What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!

This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It
fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map
users. and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of
Japanese maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for
spatial map usage while driving) and seem unfinished.

Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
issue in Europe, it was ignored.

Javbw.




Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the
unneeded icons cluttering the map.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "What can I ask ..." list for browsing people

[André Pirard]

On 2015-11-03 05:38, Marc Gemis wrote :
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 8:26 PM, André Pirard  > wrote:
>
>>> What can I show to Mr X?
>>>
>> This is extremely off topic btw.
> *you* are perfectly off topic.
> You seem to confuse the mappers and the public.
>
>
> What Simon probably means is that this topic does not belong on the
> tagging mailing list.
> It belongs on the general talk mailing list IMHO.
Thanks for your guessing what Simon means. Thanks for watching on us,
constable.
To be sure to write an understandable message, the topic of this thread
has been removed again.

IMHO, it's perfectly a matter of the Tagging list to make an index of
the most useful tagging documents they wrote.
The general public has absolutely no notion of what tags exist nor what
what they could request for the OSM elements of their concern and they
could find that in that list.
That list could be pointed to by the Notes page

("Do s: Use this feature to
report an error ... or to give some additional information", making a
map omission less fuzzy and subtle
)
which could be pointed to by the OSM.org Help page if it had not been
refused .

André.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "What can I ask ..." list for browsing people

[Richard Fairhurst]

André Pirard wrote:
> Thanks for your guessing what Simon means. Thanks for watching 
> on us, constable.

Please moderate your language. Thank you.

Richard
tagging@ list admin




--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/What-can-I-ask-list-for-browsing-people-tp5858567p5859943.html
Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in favor of relations

[Paul Norman]

On 11/10/2015 11:20 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

I thought the problem was a 2000 member limitation in the API


This is on nodes per way, not members per relation. There are 164 larger 
relations.


Even if there is no hard limit, I'd consider a 2k member relation past 
the limit of what is practical to work with.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Nov 13, 2015, at 6:45 AM, John Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> Could you have a named signal at a named junction, with different names?

Afaik, named road junctions do not exist in Japan (motorway junctions are 
named, but not normal roads with signals) I am not sure about other places. 



The closest thing is when a major street is named after the place=quarter(?) it 
goes through, and the area is broken up into numbered blocks (not street 
addresses for the buildings, but sequential block numbers) and the signals are 
basically numbered along with the adjacent area, So:

Driving down Honcho street through honcho sections 1, 2, 3, etc , the signal 
names  will match Honcho 1, Honcho2, honcho3. 

But this only happens for secondary/primary/trunks *sometimes*. 
Other times they will be named like "station north entrance" or just the name 
of the village, if it is a small place. Some are named as "foobar mountain 
entrance", because it is where you turn to drive up the large mountain - so 
expecting the signal names to be in some kind of sequential order, related to 
the current town name or nearby buildings is not good, as it is very 
inconsistent - hence the names need to be rendered, as provided mapping 
instructions and visible signage on where to turn - either on paper maps, a 
printed brochure or online PDF, or GPS navi systems are all based on signal 
names (when present) to tell you where to turn, or give you a reference point 
to count signals past that point on where to turn. 


Javbw. 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Does Google lack data?

[André Pirard]

Hi,

I've been surprised when Searching Google for Щорса Кричев

to find the result Остановка - Щорса - Кричев - WikiRoutes.info

which is a map containing the Google Logo but an OSM map (and Copyright,
is the logo decent?).
And notice that it's not an OSM background layer as usual, but OSM
itself !!!
(I wonder what routing that is. Beware, it's for public transport.)

Not believing my eyes, I made the request for Красная площадь wikiroutes

which is the Red Square.
and this time an answer was:  Остановка - Красная площадь - Москва -
WikiRoutes.info 
which is now a "real" Google map !!!

I seem to conclude that WikiRoutes.info uses Google when it contains
data and OSM otherwise.

And indeed Кричев is a place where friends of mine live and OSM is the
only way to see their house and neighbourhood. I wanted to add some
street names with the help of my friends and when I came back some time
later, it was already done, and beyond.

This should encourage us to continue, especially in under-mapped areas.

André.


  * Russian - detected
  * English

  * English


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging