Re: [Tagging] Big amenity=fountain

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 01.06.2015 0:52, Warin napisał(a):


I'd keep amenity=fountain and render just a name (zoomlevel area
size dependent ) with no icon, and would use


I think we should render areas with just a name, but points with both a 
name (if available) and the icon. Here's my draft on tagging and 
rendering it:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/705#issuecomment-107961292

I guess it's time to try to make a rendering test. All the comments are 
welcome.



man_made=nozzle or maybe
waterway=nozzle
for the single nozzle (not rendered in default style or rendered
just with a small dot)


Would be good to choose what type nozzle could be. As we like to use it 
for rendering in the fountains, the water nozzle can be different (blue) 
from possible nozzle types - do we know any other type suitable for 
micromapping?


--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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[Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
show oneway at all.

In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
appear at all.

The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the
'=yes' is superfluous.

OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.

Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies)
an object fits in


A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is

   - an amenity
   - man made
   - natural water (???!!)

etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and
are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories.

OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
sadly lacking a great leader.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ."  wrote:
> OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM
is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not
a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
sadly lacking a great leader.

It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad
assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are
completely unfounded. Sure, OSM is not perfect but I seriously doubt that
the k=v design or some other point you have raised is the culprit.

Feel free to leave and create a separate project. You can even be the
"great leader" for that new project that you think OSM needs. If your ideas
are indeed better, then your project will succeed and you can then prove
OSM wrong.
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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Warin]

On 3/06/2015 10:04 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:


OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. 
Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.


Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what 
categor(ies) an object fits in




OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The 
whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. 
Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant 
project but sadly lacking a great leader.





Design?
A horse designed by a committee? = a camel.
Yes it has flaws. It also has enhancements .. like going for a long 
while without water.
I view OSM the same way .. it could be better .. and it could be much 
worse.


Hard Facts?
 OSM has an organisation. Some (most) may not like some of it.
Any collection of objects needs some organisation ... look in a library 
for instance.



MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here 
to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.


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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[John Eldredge]

The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a 
oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is 
one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using 
one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 2, 2015 7:06:26 PM "pmailkeey ."  wrote:


iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
show oneway at all.

In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
appear at all.

The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the
'=yes' is superfluous.

OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.

Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies)
an object fits in


A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is

   - an amenity
   - man made
   - natural water (???!!)

etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and
are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories.

OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
sadly lacking a great leader.

--
Mike.
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via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, pmailkeey . 
wrote:

> iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
> show oneway at all.
> OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
> are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.
> Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what
> categor(ies) an object fits in
>
> --
> Mike.
> @millomweb  -
> For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
> via *the area's premier website - *
> *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
> property & pets*
>

Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer more
peace for your family, property and pets.
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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to
> add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.
>
>
That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a
shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random
input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project
ever !


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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 01:28, John Eldredge  wrote:

>   The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of
> a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is
> one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using
> one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.
>
>
> No tag
Tag oneway
tag twoway

not an'equals' in sight  and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway.
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 01:36, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer
> more peace for your family, property and pets.
>

Well, on Monday the 'prison' idea went out the window. Having me and my
brother accused of ill-treating our mother - two , nay, 3 visits to court
in preparation for a trial - but now the prosecution say they've no
evidence.



It's a ton of worry off my shoulders



Just another 19 similar tons to go.

God, it's just so bloody awful what they do to 'vulnerable adults' (Mum has
dementia) in this country.


It was the National Health Service that caused severe distress to my cat -
needing veterinary treatment.


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On 6/3/15, Steve Coast  wrote:
>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>> On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ." > > wrote:
>> > OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM
>> > is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
>> > not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
>> > significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
>> > sadly lacking a great leader.
>>
>> It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad
>> assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are
>> completely unfounded.
>>
>
> I don’t know; there are a bunch of fairly key and active OSM people who
> unsubscribed from the lists precisely because they felt it was mostly
> circular argument.

Yes, people leave mailing lists because of the endless arguments and
constant bike-shedding. But that does not constitute 90% of OSM. I am
willing to bet that majority if not 90% of OSM activity is of mappers
actually mapping. Mailing list discussions is a really small slice of
the overall OSM activity.

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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Warin]

On 3/06/2015 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:




MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join
here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.


That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's 
such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less 
random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random 
input project ever !



:-)

I like the random input idea .. something about those monkeys typing a 
book .. wonder how they'd go making a map?


--
Some words of 'encouragement'

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one 
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress 
depends on the unreasonable man.”


George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 01:37, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> Please propose an alternative.
>

I see an awful lot of good in OSM and I think it's a great project. I've
had it agreed with another about it being such a mess - but the fact it's
such a worthwhile project it's worth battling on with it - even if, sadly,
others have succumbed to the nightmares around every corner. An alternative
would be wrong, it is this that needs fixing and it needs a lot of 'tricky'
effort to see the good from the not so good. It's like one team at both
ends of a thick 'tug of war' rope, not really sure which way to pull for
the best whilst each has in their hand only a mere strand to that rope. I
think everything is overwhelmed yet the whole thing is clearly in its
infancy - with diseases, viruses and god-knows what being thrown at it at
all times from all angles.

The freedom to make up any tags is brilliant while likely being one of the
biggest problems - that not simply throws simple problems but really
complex multi-dimensional ones with 'language' issues for one thing, the
fact OSM is secretly 2 maps (at least!!) in one where in the main the two
are compatible and other places where clearly they're not. Computers
frequently come up with an answer. OSM rarely does; likely many answers or
none at all. Digital, analogue, fuzzy logic all put into a blender and
whizzed for a few seconds - and each time this is tried a different result
is found. Consistently inconsistent.

I think in the end it will work - but the effort required to get there will
be far greater than the sum of its parts.

Take one aspect - quality - there's the whole gamut from true to false -
anyone can't assume anything about OSM data - and if different people
around the world wrote a report on it, none of the resulting reports would
agree !

I can't produce some magic answer without some agreement :)

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=works

[pmailkeey .]

On 31 May 2015 at 12:09, Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 31.05.2015 10:25, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a):
>
>  recently there is a lot of discussion from newbies(?) here, that seem
>> to propose new tags and tagging schemes for stuff that is already
>> discussed and agreed upon and in widespread use.
>>
>> Please, if you are not familiar with the tagging, look it up in the
>> wiki or ask for help, but don't continue to propose tags as if we were
>> starting to map just now.
>>
>
> I am hardly a newbie =} and I can't speak for others, but I keep
> forgetting even the widely used tagging schemes, exactly because there's
> too much ambiguity and they don't make a clear system for me.
>
> It's enough for me to remember the proper names of different items, having
> to remember (or constantly check at Wiki...) what namespace they belong is
> even harder. It is so frustrating, that I rather try to propose more
> coherent (even if not standard) solutions than to play strictly this
> "memory game".
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
>
It's got to 'work' for newbies as everyone will be a newbie at some time. I
agree - it doesn't work for oldbies either - having to refer elsewhere for
reminders is a sign something isn't right.

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=works

[pmailkeey .]

On 1 June 2015 at 06:15, Marc Gemis  wrote:

>
> I'll agree that introducing the reception_desk key was/is problematic
> because of the choice of the top level tag.
> On the other hand I do not see why we couldn't tag some of them as amenity
> and others as tourism and have both documented. It's pretty easy for data
> consumers to support both.
>

Making the top level tag surplus/irrelevant



> Take a look at e.g. historic places. They support all kind of combination
> for the same things (building=farm, historic=yes or just historic=farm).
> They process the data before putting it on the map, so those things appear
> the same for the users of that map.
>
> As I understood the power_sockets problem is that some want to generalize
> the "power_socket" concept. Do we always have to try to find the most
> general concept and add X number of subtags to say what we really want to
> say ? Or can we sometimes just live with the specialty object (charging
> place for cars).
> I think the use cases are important, when I'm looking for something to
> charge my car, I won't be looking for a socket where I can charge a
> computer, and vice versa. Two totally different use cases. In those
> situations I would accept a specialty tag for each of them. I know the
> world is not black and white and in many cases it will be harder to decide
> on a general tag with subtags or a specialty tag.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
>

It's quite clear we're not sure what we're doing ;)


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Re: [Tagging] man_made=works

[pmailkeey .]

I've recently found EV charging stations marked as 'gas stations'. Actually
seems reasonable to me !

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=works

[pmailkeey .]

On 1 June 2015 at 13:18, Marc Gemis  wrote:

>
>> Why do you need to specify amenity = yes or tourism = yes  ? What do I
> learn from that ? Is this for the case that there are 2 reception desks on
> a property (thinking about a campsite here), where one is used by the
> tourist and the other for deliveries ?
>
> I still haven't figured out for myself whether top level keys bring a lot
> of benefits. I suppose they do for building or shop (see e.g. SK53 latest
> diary entry on shop statistics, which won't be possible with a top-level
> shop tag).
> But does it help for things "amenity", leisure or tourism, which are
> really collections of totally different things ? Would they be better off
> without those top level tags ?
>
> regards
>
> m
>
>
>
It's a good question. Highway ,building, barrier  - seem 'data strong' but
'manmade', 'amenity' and the like are REALLY weak as they give no clue
about the object that's of any value to anyone.

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Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Andreas Goss]

No tag
Tag oneway
tag twoway

not an'equals' in sight  and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway.


I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not 
even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which 
again is always a good source for errors.


As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be 
contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc.


For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one.

And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that 
which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki 
pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention 
that is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no... 
are you going to use no_bus=yes instead?

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[Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

Hi,
I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have 
mapped.

There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).

They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.

Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!

I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics




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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Andre Engels]

I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found
further down the page under "art, music, hobbies", and to which the
link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already
thought "shop=camera" would better be "shop=photo")



On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
> mapped.
> There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).
>
> They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.
>
> Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!
>
> I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

the wiki for shop=photo "A shop dealing with photos or video in any way."
humm .. does not necessarily sell cameras ... ?
and 'develop photos'? errr .. that is now a specialist activity given the 
reduction in film cameras.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto




Where as a camera shop does sell cameras... but may not 'deal with photos'
So someone has a redirect up on shop=camera... and the redirect says 
'everything with photos'?

Would it not be better to call them what is most common?
I think there are now more "camera shops" than "Photo shops" .. take a look in 
a phone book?
 :-DMine has a redirect to "Photographic Equipment" !!  So what do I know?

Maybe the wiki page for shop=photo needs to actually include
cameras?
"Photographic Equipment"?



On 3/06/2015 1:18 PM, Andre Engels wrote:

I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found
further down the page under "art, music, hobbies", and to which the
link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already
thought "shop=camera" would better be "shop=photo")



On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
mapped.
There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).

They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.

Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!

I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics





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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

I note on the shop=photo discussion page
Even though shop=camera redirects here, the description does not 
actually include selling cameras (or similar electronic photographic 
equipment). So do cameras belong into shop=electronics? Aceman444 
 (talk 
) 
01:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


So do cameras;
A) belong under shop=photo?
B) belong under shop=electronics?
C) or should they have there own shop?

I'm against B).
Either A) under shop=photo .. with major change to the wiki on 
shop=photo!!! OR C) new shop=camera.


On 3/06/2015 2:32 PM, Warin wrote:

the wiki for shop=photo "A shop dealing with photos or video in any way."
humm .. does not necessarily sell cameras ... ?
and 'develop photos'? errr .. that is now a specialist activity given 
the reduction in film cameras.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto




Where as a camera shop does sell cameras... but may not 'deal with 
photos'
So someone has a redirect up on shop=camera... and the redirect says 
'everything with photos'?


Would it not be better to call them what is most common?
I think there are now more "camera shops" than "Photo shops" .. take a 
look in a phone book?
 :-DMine has a redirect to "Photographic Equipment" !!  So what do 
I know?


Maybe the wiki page for shop=photo needs to actually include
cameras?
"Photographic Equipment"?



On 3/06/2015 1:18 PM, Andre Engels wrote:

I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found
further down the page under "art, music, hobbies", and to which the
link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already
thought "shop=camera" would better be "shop=photo")



On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
mapped.
There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).

They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters 
etc etc.


Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!

I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics 







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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-06-03 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote:

iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should
not show oneway at all.


I agree.


In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
appear at all.


Here I don't agree.


The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and
the '=yes' is superfluous.


Some roads are implied oneway. E.g. junction=roundabout and 
highway=motorway both imply that the road is one-way only. If for some 
reason the object in case is not oneway, a oneway=no tag is very much 
needed.


I agree that in every case where oneway=yes is not implied, oneway=no is 
superfluous (in a network design way), but that does not make oneway=no 
superfluous.


There is also the occurence of oneway=-1 in case someone reverses the 
direction of a way. What should be done when the only possibility for 
oneway is either set or unset and the direction gets reversed? Should 
reversing be disallowed? Should you get a warning "oneway street can not 
be reversed"?


Maarten


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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Wed, 2015-06-03 at 15:54 +1000, Warin wrote:
> I note on the shop=photo discussion page 
> Even though shop=camera redirects here, the description does not
> actually include selling cameras (or similar electronic photographic
> equipment). So do cameras belong into shop=electronics? Aceman444
> (talk) 01:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC) 
> 
> So do cameras;
> A) belong under shop=photo?
> B) belong under shop=electronics? 
> C) or should they have there own shop? 
> 
> I'm against B).
> Either A) under shop=photo .. with major change to the wiki on
> shop=photo!!! OR C) new shop=camera. 

+1

There is a huge difference between a photography store and a
run-of-the-mill electronics store. Even in the primarily digital era,
photography stores would be where one buys film and learns to develop
their own pictures, if so inclined. Not something I'd expect at a Best
Buy or Fry's kind of place.


-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 


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