Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business
> Il giorno 12/set/2014, alle ore 17:45, Michał Brzozowski
> ha scritto:
>
> chimneys
chimney sweeping or construction? Chimneys in steel or masonry / concrete?
Industrial or consumer size?
The world is highly complex and business types very fragmented, but these
details do matter, because you'll usually have very specific needs and would
like to have specific answers to them.
Instead of a top down process ("what kind of pois do we need in osm") our
process is much more open by letting people use any tag they want to describe
something and then see what they have used and how it could be combined into a
structure. Unfortunately this process is very vulnerable to mappers that "clean
up" and "fix mistagging" to "normalize" the db.
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business
And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another distortion: tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default rendering. For example: shop=bicycle renders shop=bicycle;skateboard does not Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging work better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business
This is no longer true. 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt : > And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another > distortion: > tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. > > Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default > rendering. For example: > > shop=bicycle > renders > shop=bicycle;skateboard > does not > > Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging > work better. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Hello, On 13.09.2014 07:49, johnw wrote: Is there in OSM wide set for this? pulling all the default "(English)" labels off of an internationally focused map seems truly backwards. Whats the deal there? in OSM we focus on ground truth and having a local (!) community taking care of the data and keeping it in shape. The standard in OSM is to put the local name of a feature in the name tag. There are exceptions for countries with multiple languages in use or for disputed areas. But typically there is one language and the feature's name in that language is in the name tag. If the name exists in different languages or there is the need for some romanized writing this is in the respective name:* tags. Due to the main site's map commitment to the local community and thus displaying each feature in it's local name some people abused the name tag to implement bilingual (local/English) rendering. This is certainly an abuse as it makes processing the data for various purposes much more difficult. And the decision which name to show on a map is a cartographic decision and should not be made in the data. As of today there exist many alternatives on how to make a map multi-lingual. My own map is doing this since four years, Mapquest is also showing a local/English naming (world-wide). So while in principle it's correct to fix the name tag to include only the local name (in your case in Japanese), due to the widespread misuse of the name tag especially in Japan it is a decision of the local community how to go on with it. Personally I would favor a mechanical edit to rectify the majority of the name tags, then continue with the local/name:* scheme. But this is a decision which needs to be made by the local community. You can compare the tagging in other parts of the world which follow this tagging. For example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/48.0147/11.5645&layers=Q it is name=München, name=en=Munich No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? The style on osm.org respects local mapper and always shows the local name. Specific rendering exists for "international" maps. Switch to the mapquest layer and you can read it bi-lingual. Other maps like that on openstreetmap.de try to show always the German name or a romanized form. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote: > No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should > Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. Understanding that this "JA (en)" schema is bad for the database makes sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
johnw, Let me try to clarify a bit more. In Japan the name tag should contain ONLY the Japanese language name of the feature. If someone wants to add an English version they are free to do that but it should be added in a special tag, i.e., name:en That way renderers that wish to show features labeled in English will use the information in the name:en=* tag while others may use the Japanese name from the standard name=* tag. It all depends on the audience the renderer is trying to please. Having a tag with two versions in its value is an error by this reasoning. While the person deleting the parenthetical translation is perhaps being a bit impolite by not consulting everyone who has added those extra names, he or she is actually only removing data that is not correct and that will likely cause problems down the line. In addition, if the practice is as widespread as you say, contacting everyone doing this bad tagging is simply too much work. As stephan correctly points out, if I were in America I certainly wouldn't appreciate seeing those parenthetical street names in Thai following the English names, even in a predominantly Thai neighborhood. Dave On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, johnw wrote: > > On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss > wrote: > > No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should > Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? > > > - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that > would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? > > - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station > identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as > Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in > english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are > also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living > there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various > place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. > > If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + > English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. > > Understanding that this "JA (en)" schema is bad for the database makes > sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? > > > Javbw > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business
Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean the generic "point" shop icon? Michał 13 wrz 2014 11:29 "Mateusz Konieczny" napisał(a): > This is no longer true. > > 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt : > >> And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another >> distortion: >> tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. >> >> Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default >> rendering. For example: >> >> shop=bicycle >> renders >> shop=bicycle;skateboard >> does not >> >> Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging >> work better. >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
Hello, > johnw Japan local community had discussed about that on 2014/03. Thread is started here (quite long!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2013-September/007600.html Summary is * Japan community stop "name = JP (EN)" writing, after 2014/03. * Existing "name = JP (EN)" is switched to "name" + "name:ja" + "name:en", by manually. Mechanical edits are not recommended. * (But as you know, detecting "name = JP (EN)" is very easy those days by using overpass API.) * Most of JP members understand "name = JP (EN)" writing is too bad. But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so). * Most of JP members also understand "name = JP (EN)" writing would break the database structure. * Why "name = JP (EN)" writing is still alive on transport? Only for no mappers is enthusiastic about that. At least yet. :) Switching is happen on Place node by some enthusiastic members (as seemed.) As you said, bilingual expression is very important for foreigners. It is better that we could get more "name:* specific" tiles or some vector tile to satisfy this needs. Regards. 2014-09-13 19:59 GMT+09:00 Dave Swarthout : > johnw, > > Let me try to clarify a bit more. In Japan the name tag should contain > ONLY the Japanese language name of the feature. If someone wants to add an > English version they are free to do that but it should be added in a > special tag, i.e., name:en > > That way renderers that wish to show features labeled in English will use > the information in the name:en=* tag while others may use the Japanese name > from the standard name=* tag. It all depends on the audience the renderer > is trying to please. Having a tag with two versions in its value is an > error by this reasoning. > > While the person deleting the parenthetical translation is perhaps being a > bit impolite by not consulting everyone who has added those extra names, he > or she is actually only removing data that is not correct and that will > likely cause problems down the line. In addition, if the practice is as > widespread as you say, contacting everyone doing this bad tagging is simply > too much work. > > As stephan correctly points out, if I were in America I certainly wouldn't > appreciate seeing those parenthetical street names in Thai following the > English names, even in a predominantly Thai neighborhood. > > Dave > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, johnw wrote: > >> >> On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss >> wrote: >> >> No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should >> Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map? >> >> >> - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that >> would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right? >> >> - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station >> identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as >> Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in >> english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are >> also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living >> there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various >> place names takes a decade or so of straight practice. >> >> If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + >> English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable. >> >> Understanding that this "JA (en)" schema is bad for the database makes >> sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags? >> >> >> Javbw >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> > > > -- > Dave Swarthout > Homer, Alaska > Chiang Mai, Thailand > Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business
Now I am less sure. IIRC the idea settled on rendering everything except short blacklist but according to https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/604 it was done by selecting many popular values what would exclude shop=bicycle;skateboard (what IMHO is a poor tagging, it should be [shop=sports; sports=bicycle;skateboard]). 2014-09-13 16:32 GMT+02:00 Michał Brzozowski : > Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean the generic "point" shop icon? > Michał > 13 wrz 2014 11:29 "Mateusz Konieczny" napisał(a): > > This is no longer true. >> >> 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt : >> >>> And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another >>> distortion: >>> tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. >>> >>> Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default >>> rendering. For example: >>> >>> shop=bicycle >>> renders >>> shop=bicycle;skateboard >>> does not >>> >>> Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current >>> tagging work better. >>> >>> ___ >>> Tagging mailing list >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA wrote: > But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other > alternative (apps or tiles or so). This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries
wow! > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 My previous text should be "insisted" (past, at that time). I'll follow the current issue, thanks! 2014-09-14 0:02 GMT+09:00 Matthijs Melissen : > On 13 September 2014 15:41, Satoshi IIDA wrote: > > But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other > > alternative (apps or tiles or so). > > This suggestion is in fact currently under discussion: > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803 > > -- Matthijs > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] "floating" or "pontoon" bridges?
How does Washington State (particularly Lake Washington and Puget Sound) have these tagged? WSDOT has the world's largest fleet of floating bridges (which, if I'm not mistaken, are registered as stationary ships). On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > I am not an expert. > The four bridges in "my" area are similar in construction. They use > boat-shaped floating devices, similar to your antique example. I do not > know whether these are actually (ex-) boats. As far as I know, when they > are opened, typically because of high water flow and consequent danger of > them being damaged, they are swung by 90 degrees as a complete unit and > anchored to the river bank. They are not normally opened to let boats > through and I don't think they can be partially opened. > But they are not floating bridges as in your second link. > If you give me time I most likely do have photographs of all of them, at > least one of them both opened and closed. (My photos are geotagged, but my > archive does not allow search by coordinates) > > Volker > > > >> >> Hi Volker, >> What’s up against the tag building=bridge, floating=yes, with additional >> floating=pontoon / ship, a pontoon is a sturdy hardly to move object, a >> ship bridge where each part / section is based on a one or more ships, and >> one section can be removed to let a vessel pass by. >> >> https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/RP-P-OB-79.978 >> >> The Duke of Alva made this crossing at Antwerp, a road upon ships. It >> looks more like a barrier then the possibility to remove a section out of >> the way. With one exception the Dutch vlotbrug. >> >> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlotbrug >> >> The Sint Maartensvlotbrug consists of 2 pontoons floating to and from the >> middle with a bridge (ramp) on each side. >> >> Hendrikklaas >> >> >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
