Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Ilya Zverev]

Dear community, WTF?

admin_level on place nodes surely duplicates admin_level tag value
from one of relations which contain that node, but is that a bad
thing?

Did you try to calculate admin_level for a place in osm2pgsql
database? I've spent two hours now trying to construct and optimize an
SQL query for that, and seeing it takes at least 20 seconds for a
tile, I'd prefer having admin_level tag on places.

I know data users' problems are not mappers' problems, but why this
rare redundancy is being addressed instead of other, like foot=yes
with sidewalk=* (you can find thousand of other redundancies with
taginfo)? Why did you after just two days of discussion started to
remove this tags from nodes as important as GB's capital?

Please explain why admin_level on place nodes harms the database, or
refrain from removing it. Thanks.

IZ

> I've added a note to the wiki to avoid future confusion:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aboundary%3Dadministrative&diff=1037547&oldid=1000731

> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>>
>> 2014-05-11 3:50 GMT+02:00 Nelson A. de Oliveira :
>>
>>> Using "admin_level" outside (or without) a "boundary=administrative"
>>> relation will be as wrong/incomplete as using "service" without a
>>> "highway=service", "railway" or "waterway"; or using "crossing_ref"
>>> without "crossing", for example.
>>
>> +1
>> I'd also see it like this. Use the role admin_centre in administrative
>> relations to include the central place, and/or add a
>> capital= on the place object to store its administrative
>> importance conveniently (no need to evaluate administrative relations or to
>> inherit importance from a relation).


IZ


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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Ilya Zverev]

Sorry, two facts that I forgot to check before sending the last mail.

1. There are 63762 place nodes with an admin_level in the database,
and ~330k other nodes with this tag. I guess it's too late to forbid
using the tag on nodes.

2. It's Berlin that was edited, not London:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/22279835

Also, if we can remove a meaningful node just because it duplicates
(and aggregates, but whatever) some other node in some other object
after a small discussion among 10 people, does that mean that tags
that have even less meaning considering data is usually loaded in a
spatial database (like addr:city) can be removed on spot?


IZ


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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-05-13 14:20 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :

> admin_level on place nodes surely duplicates admin_level tag value
> from one of relations which contain that node, but is that a bad
> thing?
>
> Did you try to calculate admin_level for a place in osm2pgsql
> database? I've spent two hours now trying to construct and optimize an
> SQL query for that, and seeing it takes at least 20 seconds for a
> tile, I'd prefer having admin_level tag on places.
>



admin_level has no real "definition" in the wiki what it is supposed to
express: the key link redirects to boundary=administrative:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:admin_level#admin_level

This could already be taken as a statement: admin_level is there to express
the admin_level of an administrative entity (this text is not there in the
wiki right now).

IMHO "place"s are orthogonal to administrative entities. They can sometimes
cover the same area, in other cases they don't. Some places are
administrative centers for an administrative entity, others aren't.

Now there is also a key "capital" that can tell the administrative
importance for a place (it will contain the admin_level of the highest
administrative entity (=lowest admin level number) for which a place is the
administration centre), so no real need to have an admin_level with
duplicating values on these places as well. I think capital is a better key
for places then "admin_level", as any place will "have" lots of
admin_levels (e.g. 2 when it is inside a country) so semantically it
doesn't make a lot of sense.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Ilya Zverev]

Martin Koppenhoefer:

> admin_level has no real "definition" in the wiki what it is supposed to
> express: the key link redirects to boundary=administrative:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:admin_level#admin_level
>
> ...
>
> Now there is also a key "capital" that can tell the administrative
> importance for a place (it will contain the admin_level of the highest
> administrative entity (=lowest admin level number) for which a place is the
> administration centre), so no real need to have an admin_level with
> duplicating values on these places as well. I think capital is a better key
> for places then "admin_level", as any place will "have" lots of
> admin_levels (e.g. 2 when it is inside a country) so semantically it
> doesn't make a lot of sense.

First, this discussion it seemed was about removing admin_level tags,
and not straightening up the tagging schema. I posted my reply because
I had seen the tag removed from Berlin, not replaced by another. Left
there is capital=yes tag, which is sometimes used along with
admin_level=* ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:capital ).

Having one tag instead of two to look at for admin_level value would
be nice, but that should invoke some kind of a proposal (like when we
[almost] bulk-replaced all building=entrance with entrance=yes). I'll
support this decision no matter to which tag it comes to, capital or
admin_level. But please, for now do not remove existing tags and do
not put warnings in the wiki to not do something without providing
a good alternative.


IZ


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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-05-13 15:02 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :

>
> First, this discussion it seemed was about removing admin_level tags,
> and not straightening up the tagging schema. I posted my reply because
> I had seen the tag removed from Berlin, not replaced by another. Left
> there is capital=yes tag, which is sometimes used along with
> admin_level=* ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:capital ).
>


I am aware of that page (one hour ago reset it from "cancelled" to "draft"
because capital as a key is not "cancelled" but well established). IMHO
this proposal (and its discussion) doesn't advocate setting admin_level
aside the capital tag. There was this idea back in 2008, but if you follow
the discussion it looks as if capital is the key to go with (so no need for
duplicating the same value in "admin_level" as well).

Btw.: I completely agree with you that inheriting from administrative
relations is worse than having an explicit tag on the place, as this
inheritance idea doesn't work well with dynamic data (incremental updates
and how they are usually applied, osm2pgsql).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Fernando Trebien]

I surely could remove the warning I've added to the wiki, but please
first consider that, from the ~33 nodes with a place=* tag that
you mentioned, only 63762 (19%) are combined with an admin_level tag.
I've mentioned [1] many of important cities (in fact, secondary,
tertiary cities, right next to the capital city in a listing sorted by
population) that do not have the admin_level tag.

I'm being neutral in this debate, the only thing I care about is
coming up with a reasonable recommendation for the Brazilian
community. Add - and why - or not add - and why not.

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017506.html

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>> admin_level has no real "definition" in the wiki what it is supposed to
>> express: the key link redirects to boundary=administrative:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:admin_level#admin_level
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Now there is also a key "capital" that can tell the administrative
>> importance for a place (it will contain the admin_level of the highest
>> administrative entity (=lowest admin level number) for which a place is the
>> administration centre), so no real need to have an admin_level with
>> duplicating values on these places as well. I think capital is a better key
>> for places then "admin_level", as any place will "have" lots of
>> admin_levels (e.g. 2 when it is inside a country) so semantically it
>> doesn't make a lot of sense.
>
> First, this discussion it seemed was about removing admin_level tags,
> and not straightening up the tagging schema. I posted my reply because
> I had seen the tag removed from Berlin, not replaced by another. Left
> there is capital=yes tag, which is sometimes used along with
> admin_level=* ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:capital ).
>
> Having one tag instead of two to look at for admin_level value would
> be nice, but that should invoke some kind of a proposal (like when we
> [almost] bulk-replaced all building=entrance with entrance=yes). I'll
> support this decision no matter to which tag it comes to, capital or
> admin_level. But please, for now do not remove existing tags and do
> not put warnings in the wiki to not do something without providing
> a good alternative.
>
>
> IZ
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[John Packer]

Hi Martin, I was the one that marked the proposal for the key capital as
cancelled (maybe abandoned was a better status).
I did this because I saw it's use was a complete mess in tag info, and as
far as I knew, admin_centre had the same purpose, so I just wanted to help
to clean the wiki from it's countless inconsistencies and abandoned
proposals.

If the use of the key capital is well established, please at least create a
page Key:capital explaining it's use.
Em 13/05/2014 10:35, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
escreveu:

>
>
>
> 2014-05-13 15:02 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :
>
>>
>> First, this discussion it seemed was about removing admin_level tags,
>> and not straightening up the tagging schema. I posted my reply because
>> I had seen the tag removed from Berlin, not replaced by another. Left
>> there is capital=yes tag, which is sometimes used along with
>> admin_level=* ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:capital ).
>>
>
>
> I am aware of that page (one hour ago reset it from "cancelled" to "draft"
> because capital as a key is not "cancelled" but well established). IMHO
> this proposal (and its discussion) doesn't advocate setting admin_level
> aside the capital tag. There was this idea back in 2008, but if you follow
> the discussion it looks as if capital is the key to go with (so no need for
> duplicating the same value in "admin_level" as well).
>
> Btw.: I completely agree with you that inheriting from administrative
> relations is worse than having an explicit tag on the place, as this
> inheritance idea doesn't work well with dynamic data (incremental updates
> and how they are usually applied, osm2pgsql).
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-05-13 16:54 GMT+02:00 John Packer :

> Hi Martin, I was the one that marked the proposal for the key capital as
> cancelled (maybe abandoned was a better status).
> I did this because I saw it's use was a complete mess in tag info, and as
> far as I knew, admin_centre had the same purpose, so I just wanted to help
> to clean the wiki from it's countless inconsistencies and abandoned
> proposals.
>
> If the use of the key capital is well established, please at least create
> a page Key:capital explaining it's use.
>

You should be extra careful when marking docu as obsolete, I suggest always
asking here before doing so. AFAIK that page is the only documentation for
the capital key, and the capital-key is the mostly used and standard method
to mark a country capital (there is also the newer method of adding the
place with the admin centre role to the country's administrative relation,
but commonly the renderers use the capital key).

By looking at taginfo I don't agree that this tag looks messed up:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/capital#values
there are very few values that don't fit into the definition(s) on the
capital wiki page, "county" is the one with the most utilizations, but it's
only 10 of them. You will have lots of strange values for all osm keys but
as long as their number (for each value) is below 10 there is really no
need to worry.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Fernando Trebien]

Hm, what does capital=8 mean? I've only seen the value capital=yes so far.

It could be the result of a bad import.

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> 2014-05-13 16:54 GMT+02:00 John Packer :
>
>> Hi Martin, I was the one that marked the proposal for the key capital as
>> cancelled (maybe abandoned was a better status).
>> I did this because I saw it's use was a complete mess in tag info, and as
>> far as I knew, admin_centre had the same purpose, so I just wanted to help
>> to clean the wiki from it's countless inconsistencies and abandoned
>> proposals.
>>
>> If the use of the key capital is well established, please at least create
>> a page Key:capital explaining it's use.
>
>
> You should be extra careful when marking docu as obsolete, I suggest always
> asking here before doing so. AFAIK that page is the only documentation for
> the capital key, and the capital-key is the mostly used and standard method
> to mark a country capital (there is also the newer method of adding the
> place with the admin centre role to the country's administrative relation,
> but commonly the renderers use the capital key).
>
> By looking at taginfo I don't agree that this tag looks messed up:
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/capital#values
> there are very few values that don't fit into the definition(s) on the
> capital wiki page, "county" is the one with the most utilizations, but it's
> only 10 of them. You will have lots of strange values for all osm keys but
> as long as their number (for each value) is below 10 there is really no need
> to worry.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-05-13 17:25 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien :

> Hm, what does capital=8 mean? I've only seen the value capital=yes so far.
>
> It could be the result of a bad import.
>


it generally means capital (or admin_centre) of an admin_level=8 entity.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[John Packer]

I still think it's needed to create a proper page for this key.

I find it hard to see a proposal page with such a long discussion as some
kind of standard.
Em 13/05/2014 12:13, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
escreveu:

>
> 2014-05-13 16:54 GMT+02:00 John Packer :
>
>> Hi Martin, I was the one that marked the proposal for the key capital as
>> cancelled (maybe abandoned was a better status).
>> I did this because I saw it's use was a complete mess in tag info, and as
>> far as I knew, admin_centre had the same purpose, so I just wanted to help
>> to clean the wiki from it's countless inconsistencies and abandoned
>> proposals.
>>
>> If the use of the key capital is well established, please at least create
>> a page Key:capital explaining it's use.
>>
>
> You should be extra careful when marking docu as obsolete, I suggest
> always asking here before doing so. AFAIK that page is the only
> documentation for the capital key, and the capital-key is the mostly used
> and standard method to mark a country capital (there is also the newer
> method of adding the place with the admin centre role to the country's
> administrative relation, but commonly the renderers use the capital key).
>
> By looking at taginfo I don't agree that this tag looks messed up:
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/capital#values
> there are very few values that don't fit into the definition(s) on the
> capital wiki page, "county" is the one with the most utilizations, but it's
> only 10 of them. You will have lots of strange values for all osm keys but
> as long as their number (for each value) is below 10 there is really no
> need to worry.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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[Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

[Fernando Trebien]

Following from the previous discussion
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html),
it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being
employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done
in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to
describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it.

I'll start with mine, Brazil:
- Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest
city, has capital=yes
- São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has
state_capital=yes
- Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and
important), has neither of those tags

None of them have admin_level=* tags.

Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll
wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others'
relations).

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138
[3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098
[4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285
[5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447
[6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227

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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-05-13 17:24 GMT+02:00 John Packer :

> I still think it's needed to create a proper page for this key.
>
> I find it hard to see a proposal page with such a long discussion as some
> kind of standard.
>

I agree that the docu could be better here, and it would certainly be a
first step to move the discussion to the proposals discussion page (I have
done this now and also added some notes on actual usage), but that doesn't
void the proposal or the fact that this is a standard tag.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

[John Packer]

Hi Trebien,

I investigated a little about the capital=8 tag (which is 84.67% of it's 9
989 values), and it seems it's being used differently than what we thought
initially.
Most of these cases have something like admin_level=8 + capital=8.

I don't have the time right now to investigate it fully, but it seems it's
like Trebien guessed before: it's probably the result of a import:

   - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/egrn
   - http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=34095951


You can use the following Overpass query to see the first 500 nodes with
the tag capital=8 + admin_level=8: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3n4
(remove limit="500" from the  statement to see all 8000+ nodes).




2014-05-13 12:40 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien :

> Following from the previous discussion
> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html),
> it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being
> employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done
> in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to
> describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it.
>
> I'll start with mine, Brazil:
> - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest
> city, has capital=yes
> - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has
> state_capital=yes
> - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and
> important), has neither of those tags
>
> None of them have admin_level=* tags.
>
> Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll
> wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others'
> relations).
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423
> [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138
> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098
> [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285
> [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447
> [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."
>
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Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

[Fernando Trebien]

"None of them have admin_level=* tags." should have been "None of them
have admin_level=* tags on the nodes, only in relations."

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Fernando Trebien
 wrote:
> Following from the previous discussion
> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html),
> it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being
> employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done
> in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to
> describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it.
>
> I'll start with mine, Brazil:
> - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest
> city, has capital=yes
> - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has
> state_capital=yes
> - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and
> important), has neither of those tags
>
> None of them have admin_level=* tags.
>
> Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll
> wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others'
> relations).
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423
> [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138
> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098
> [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285
> [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447
> [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."



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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[John Packer]

I really don't think this is considered a standard tag by most people.
In taginfo we can find keys like capital_city, capital_level, is_capital,
state_capital, capital.
As far as I saw, each key is concentrated on some parts of the globe.
It certainly is not a "fact" that it is standard.

I had changed the proposal status to cancelled because I thought the node
admin_centre in the administrative relations superseded the proposal for
the key capital, but it seems I was wrong.

Anyway, I added a template to the page
Key:capital
.
When people agree on a definition, we should add it to this page.



2014-05-13 12:45 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2014-05-13 17:24 GMT+02:00 John Packer :
>
> I still think it's needed to create a proper page for this key.
>>
>> I find it hard to see a proposal page with such a long discussion as some
>> kind of standard.
>>
>
> I agree that the docu could be better here, and it would certainly be a
> first step to move the discussion to the proposals discussion page (I have
> done this now and also added some notes on actual usage), but that doesn't
> void the proposal or the fact that this is a standard tag.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

[John Packer]

More information:

All 48 nodes with capital=10 have admin_level=10
19 nodes out of 122 with capital=7 also have admin_level=7
21 nodes out of 331 with capital=6 also have admin_level=6  (this one came
from that Spain import)
94 nodes out of 427 with capital=4 also have admin_level=4
182 nodes out of 346 with capital=yes also have admin_level=2




2014-05-13 13:41 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien :

> "None of them have admin_level=* tags." should have been "None of them
> have admin_level=* tags on the nodes, only in relations."
>
> On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Fernando Trebien
>  wrote:
> > Following from the previous discussion
> > (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html
> ),
> > it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being
> > employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done
> > in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to
> > describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it.
> >
> > I'll start with mine, Brazil:
> > - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest
> > city, has capital=yes
> > - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has
> > state_capital=yes
> > - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and
> > important), has neither of those tags
> >
> > None of them have admin_level=* tags.
> >
> > Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll
> > wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others'
> > relations).
> >
> > [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423
> > [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138
> > [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098
> > [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285
> > [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447
> > [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227
> >
> > --
> > Fernando Trebien
> > +55 (51) 9962-5409
> >
> > "Nullius in verba."
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."
>
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[Tagging] Structure on the end of tunnel to cover sun and avoid bright blindness

[Arlindo Pereira]

Dear all,


How would you map these structures often used in tunnels to prevent
drivers/train conductors from being blinded by the sun? Check pics:
[1
] 
[2
] 
[3
] 
[4
] [5 ].
Currently I've been using building=yes, but some mappers might see that as
tagging for the renderer (I'm currently having a discussion with a fellow
mapper about this matter via OSM Notes here in Rio de Janeiro) [6].

I also started this discussion on the tunnel talk page on wiki [7].


Cheers,
Arlindo "Nighto" Pereira


1: http://www.destakjornal.com.br/sistema/noticias/150667/capa/4166836.jpg
2:
http://s2.glbimg.com/GG5nOpMjriTjvFK4h2rlpfie9jzDClkuzeXWPBsIeYFIoz-HdGixxa_8qOZvMp3w/s.glbimg.com/jo/g1/f/original/2012/07/18/tunel-noel-rosa.jpg
3:
http://oglobo.globo.com/in/5562025-ee6-efc/FT500A/o-65s6tzvzgyw1g24k4hd_layout.jpg
4:
http://www.rio2016.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/960x608_rounded_corners/20121001_cidade_olimpica_transoeste_tunel_grota_funda_estacao_brt_magarca_jd-8605.jpg
5: http://perlbal.hi-pi.com/blog-images/1467750/gd/133901765091.jpg
6: In portuguese: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/159034
7:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:tunnel#Structure_on_the_end_of_tunnel_to_cover_sun_and_avoid_bright_blindness
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Re: [Tagging] Structure on the end of tunnel to cover sun and avoid bright blindness

[Janko Mihelić]

First, I'd rather tag it as building=roof, but even that might not be
enough because it's not built to be a roof. If the only function is sun
blocking, maybe some long name like building=tunnel_exit_sun_block.

Janko


2014-05-13 20:06 GMT+02:00 Arlindo Pereira :

> Dear all,
>
>
> How would you map these structures often used in tunnels to prevent
> drivers/train conductors from being blinded by the sun? Check pics: 
> [1
> ] 
> [2
> ] 
> [3
> ] 
> [4
> ] [5 ].
> Currently I've been using building=yes, but some mappers might see that as
> tagging for the renderer (I'm currently having a discussion with a fellow
> mapper about this matter via OSM Notes here in Rio de Janeiro) [6].
>
> I also started this discussion on the tunnel talk page on wiki [7].
>
>
> Cheers,
> Arlindo "Nighto" Pereira
>
>
> 1: http://www.destakjornal.com.br/sistema/noticias/150667/capa/4166836.jpg
> 2:
> http://s2.glbimg.com/GG5nOpMjriTjvFK4h2rlpfie9jzDClkuzeXWPBsIeYFIoz-HdGixxa_8qOZvMp3w/s.glbimg.com/jo/g1/f/original/2012/07/18/tunel-noel-rosa.jpg
> 3:
> http://oglobo.globo.com/in/5562025-ee6-efc/FT500A/o-65s6tzvzgyw1g24k4hd_layout.jpg
> 4:
> http://www.rio2016.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/960x608_rounded_corners/20121001_cidade_olimpica_transoeste_tunel_grota_funda_estacao_brt_magarca_jd-8605.jpg
> 5: http://perlbal.hi-pi.com/blog-images/1467750/gd/133901765091.jpg
> 6: In portuguese: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/159034
> 7:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:tunnel#Structure_on_the_end_of_tunnel_to_cover_sun_and_avoid_bright_blindness
>
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Re: [Tagging] Structure on the end of tunnel to cover sun and avoid bright blindness

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
> First, I'd rather tag it as building=roof, but even that might not be enough
> because it's not built to be a roof. If the only function is sun blocking,
> maybe some long name like building=tunnel_exit_sun_block.

building=shade seems better

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Re: [Tagging] Structure on the end of tunnel to cover sun and avoid bright blindness

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 13/mag/2014 um 20:30 schrieb "Nelson A. de Oliveira" :
> 
> building=shade seems better


this could be a idea if you map the structure itself, or maybe 
building=shading_structure

you can also split the highway and add an attribute like shaded=yes
or shading_structure=yes or covered=shade

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 13/mag/2014 um 19:06 schrieb John Packer :
> 
> It certainly is not a "fact" that it is standard.


maybe you have to look how capitals are tagged and which of these tags are 
there for a long time, to be convinced? Are you aware that this key is in 
default.style?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Andreas Goss]

Please explain why admin_level on place nodes harms the database, or
refrain from removing it. Thanks.


I actually put it back in Berlin after I took a 2nd closer look at 
Germany. Which then actually revealed that all our state capitals are 
tagged with admin_level=6 when they should be 4 as far as i understand 
if you tag them at all...


Which then actually made me rethink and discover a possible problem when 
tagging the node.


If you tag Berlin admin_level=2 do you assume it also holds 
admin_level=4? 6? (Then you realize that with Berlin you actually have a 
special situation, because it is a city state. But that wasn't even what 
I was going for.)


Now let's say things in Germany would have went a bit different 20 years 
ago...

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_on_the_Capital_of_Germany).

Bonn would have become the capital of Germany not Berlin. Now I tag Bonn 
with admin_level=2. The problem is that Bonn is located in North 
Rhine-Westphalia whose capital is Düsseldorf. So how do I now know that 
Bonn isn't the capital of NRW? Do I have to tag other capitals with 
admin_level=2,4 in order to show that they are country and state 
capitals and admin_level=2 only stands for country capital? Am I going 
to have to tag nodes with admin_level=2,4,5,6,8... in order to be able 
to tag e.g. Bonn as admin_level=2,5,6,8...? (Germany has no lvl 3) 
Because there is no "exclude" option.


Andi


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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Fernando Trebien]

Applications could avoid that mess if they supported and preferred the
"admin_centre" role of relations. For a long time I believed that the
only practical reason for placing "capital=yes" or "state_capital=yes"
on a node was to help the renderer decide how to render the label; the
renderer could then avoid the trouble of handling relations, even
though it's not tht hard to handle them, and a good renderer would
have to handle them to support multipolygons anyway. Routing and
geocoding apps are required to support boundary relations in order to
work properly in many other situations, so they should definitely
support the admin_centre role, and also give precedence to it in order
to handle contradictions between the node and the relation (not only
admin_level, but also name and other tags).

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Andreas Goss  wrote:
>> Please explain why admin_level on place nodes harms the database, or
>> refrain from removing it. Thanks.
>
>
> I actually put it back in Berlin after I took a 2nd closer look at Germany.
> Which then actually revealed that all our state capitals are tagged with
> admin_level=6 when they should be 4 as far as i understand if you tag them
> at all...
>
> Which then actually made me rethink and discover a possible problem when
> tagging the node.
>
> If you tag Berlin admin_level=2 do you assume it also holds admin_level=4?
> 6? (Then you realize that with Berlin you actually have a special situation,
> because it is a city state. But that wasn't even what I was going for.)
>
> Now let's say things in Germany would have went a bit different 20 years
> ago...
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_on_the_Capital_of_Germany).
>
> Bonn would have become the capital of Germany not Berlin. Now I tag Bonn
> with admin_level=2. The problem is that Bonn is located in North
> Rhine-Westphalia whose capital is Düsseldorf. So how do I now know that Bonn
> isn't the capital of NRW? Do I have to tag other capitals with
> admin_level=2,4 in order to show that they are country and state capitals
> and admin_level=2 only stands for country capital? Am I going to have to tag
> nodes with admin_level=2,4,5,6,8... in order to be able to tag e.g. Bonn as
> admin_level=2,5,6,8...? (Germany has no lvl 3) Because there is no "exclude"
> option.
>
> Andi
>
>
>
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-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Andreas Goss]

Am 5/14/14 04:51 , schrieb Fernando Trebien:

For a long time I believed that the
only practical reason for placing "capital=yes" or "state_capital=yes"
on a node was to help the renderer decide how to render the label;


And what happens when go to admin_level=4?
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Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

[Fernando Trebien]

In Brazil, admin_level=4 is state level, so it would be
state_capital=yes. I've never really thought about it in depth because
Brazil only has 2 administrative levels with a "capital" city and the
country only has 1 capital. This is how it looks like in Brazil now:

1. Node tagged as place=city+state_capital=yes, representing a state's
capital city, placed (at least in theory) at the city's square one
point. (Replace with capital=yes only for Brasília.)
2. Relation tagged as boundary_administrative+admin_level=8+place=city
with an admin_centre role referencing the previous node.
3. Node tagged as place=state representing the state, placed at its
geometrical center. *
4. Relation tagged as
boundary=administrative+admin_level=4+place=state with a label role
referencing the previous node and an admin_centre role referencing the
first node.

I know that Germany has more than 2 administrative levels, and
probably that's why values are being used for a capital tag instead of
many tags with a single "yes" value. It does make some sense for a
renderer, but does any support more than just 2 visual styles for
capitals right now?

It would make more sense to require apps to check the relation for its
admin_level tag, then it would be impossible to have the relation and
the node contradict each other (say, by accident), and there would be
no need for a capital tag (it's always the "admin_centre" of the
country or of a state's boundary relation). This would require just a
little extra effort for renderers (which must support multipolygon
relations anyway) and geocoders, including routers (which must support
boundary relations to know to which areas each POI belongs to).

* This seems to be the practice in most countries in the world. So
much so that we could probably get rid of such nodes and just let the
rendered calculate the center and render the label there.

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Andreas Goss  wrote:
> Am 5/14/14 04:51 , schrieb Fernando Trebien:
>
>> For a long time I believed that the
>> only practical reason for placing "capital=yes" or "state_capital=yes"
>> on a node was to help the renderer decide how to render the label;
>
>
> And what happens when go to admin_level=4?
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-- 
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"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] Structure on the end of tunnel to cover sun and avoid bright blindness

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, 14 May 2014 05:13:20 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > Am 13/mag/2014 um 20:30 schrieb "Nelson A. de Oliveira"
> > :
> > 
> > building=shade seems better
> 
> this could be a idea if you map the structure itself, or maybe
> building=shading_structure
> 
> you can also split the highway and add an attribute like shaded=yes
> or shading_structure=yes or covered=shade
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
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You could also refer to the Wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tunnel

"For covered passages which are open on one side, often found on mountain 
roads or ways underneath a building, use covered=* in place of tunnel=*."

Or tunnel=avalanche_protector

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

[Andreas Goss]

Am 5/13/14 17:40 , schrieb Fernando Trebien:

So if you know how it's being done
in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to
describe it here briefly.


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map

Pretty much answers that for state_capital=. Outside North & South 
America as well as Pakistan state_capital= is bascially not used at all.

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