Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 John F. Eldredge : > In English, a hangar is a particular type of building designed for storing > aircraft, although it may subsequently be used for other types of storage, or > even for a non-storage purpose. Probably the most generic term for a storage > building would be warehouse. Same in german. I sent a mail to talk-de to see if someone has a different perception of the word "hangar". If not, I'll change the german wiki. regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
Hi! I was curious how the language versions differ. Here a short overview: * german: storing goods * english: aircrafts * french: storing goods * hungarian: no translation -> english * italian: storing goods * japanese: use aeroway=hangar instead * netherlands: storing goods * norwegian: storing goods (does not use the template - this should be fixed!) * polish: use aeroway=hangar instead * portuguese: use aeroway=hangar instead * russian: a note that currently there is a discussion to use this only for aviation * ukrainian: storing goods So there are actually three different descriptions for one tag: for aircrafts, storing goods, use aeroway=hangar instead. I think we can improve this situation ;-) Regarding norwegian: any volunteer to switch this page to the template? regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
In English I would tend to go for the "if it looks like a hanger, then tag it as a hanger". Even if now in use as a warehouse. It provides some historic information and information as to what a map user will actually see. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 23/01/2013 8:46 Martin Vonwald wrote: Hi! I was curious how the language versions differ. Here a short overview: * german: storing goods * english: aircrafts * french: storing goods * hungarian: no translation -> english * italian: storing goods * japanese: use aeroway=hangar instead * netherlands: storing goods * norwegian: storing goods (does not use the template - this should be fixed!) * polish: use aeroway=hangar instead * portuguese: use aeroway=hangar instead * russian: a note that currently there is a discussion to use this only for aviation * ukrainian: storing goods So there are actually three different descriptions for one tag: for aircrafts, storing goods, use aeroway=hangar instead. I think we can improve this situation ;-) Regarding norwegian: any volunteer to switch this page to the template? regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: > * english: aircrafts Is that not used for boats as well ? Note that the english "hangar" comes from the French "hangar". And the usage doesn't seem to be so different (the correct word for a warehouse in French is "entrepôt" or "magasin" for a small one). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into 2. So that's no problem. How about those time domains? Could we use them to map temporary closed roads? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 Martin Vonwald : > I was curious how the language versions differ. Here a short overview: > * italian: storing goods in Italian "hangar" has roughly the same meaning than in English or German (for aircraft like planes, helicopters, blimps, ...) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
Hi! 2013/1/23 Martin Koppenhoefer : > 2013/1/23 Martin Vonwald : >> I was curious how the language versions differ. Here a short overview: >> * italian: storing goods > > > in Italian "hangar" has roughly the same meaning than in English or > German (for aircraft like planes, helicopters, blimps, ...) Just for the avoidance of doubt: I meant what is currently written in the italian wiki, not what hangar means in italian. Would you update the italian version of the template? regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 Philip Barnes : > In English I would tend to go for the "if it looks like a hanger, then tag > it as a hanger". Even if now in use as a warehouse. > It provides some historic information and information as to what a map user > will actually see. +1, generally building typologies (that's what the value of building is about) are not refering to the actual usage but to the type of building (e.g. a defiled church building which is now used as a disco would remain building=church without being an amenity=place_of_worship). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 Martin Vonwald : > Just for the avoidance of doubt: I meant what is currently written in > the italian wiki, not what hangar means in italian. > > Would you update the italian version of the template? +1, done. Btw.: the text in English is "storing" but AFAIK a hangar is generally also used for maintenance and repairs. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
> > > +1, generally building typologies (that's what the value of building > is about) are not refering to the actual usage but to the type of > building (e.g. a defiled church building which is now used as a disco > would remain building=church without being an > amenity=place_of_worship). > > +1 And this is also (maybe) the difference between building=hangar and aeroway=hangar The first should be building type, the second usage. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
I just want to add my understanding of the building tags: building=xxx (with no other tags like building:use): it looks like a xxx and is used as xxx building:use=xxx: it is used as xxx, but might not look like one building:type=xxx: it looks like xxx, but might not be used as xxx So building=hangar to me is a building that was built as a hanger, therefore looks like one and is used as one. If I now add building:use=warehouse, it still looks like a hangar but is not used as such but instead as a warehouse. Right/wrong/both of it? regards, Martin 2013/1/23 Ronnie Soak : > >> >> >> +1, generally building typologies (that's what the value of building >> is about) are not refering to the actual usage but to the type of >> building (e.g. a defiled church building which is now used as a disco >> would remain building=church without being an >> amenity=place_of_worship). >> > +1 > And this is also (maybe) the difference between building=hangar and > aeroway=hangar > The first should be building type, the second usage. > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
Am 23.01.2013 12:26, schrieb Martin Vonwald: I just want to add my understanding of the building tags: building=xxx (with no other tags like building:use): it looks like a xxx and is used as xxx building:use=xxx: it is used as xxx, but might not look like one building:type=xxx: it looks like xxx, but might not be used as xxx So building=hangar to me is a building that was built as a hanger, therefore looks like one and is used as one. If I now add building:use=warehouse, it still looks like a hangar but is not used as such but instead as a warehouse. Right/wrong/both of it? Do we need that? Are there examples, where the we need building:use? For most cases we already have corresponding tags that would double the building:use: shop=*, a lot of values in amenity=*, the aeroway=hangar example... I don't think building:use ever is useful instead of or additional to the corresponding fitting "real" tag; but perhaps you (or anybody else can give examples of usages, where such a tag is missing or where there are reasons not to use/invent one. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 Peter Wendorff > Do we need that? > Are there examples, where we need building:use? > I agree, building:use=* is redundant. As I understand it, building=xxx means the building is built, and looks like a xxx. It says nothing about it's use. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Contents of Tagging Digest, Wiki Building - HangarVol 40, Issue 49
> From: tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Tagging Digest, Vol 40, Issue 49 > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:29:40 + > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:29:31 +0100 > From: Pieren > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: > > > * english: aircrafts > > Is that not used for boats as well ? Note that the english "hangar" > comes from the French "hangar". And the usage doesn't seem to be so > different (the correct word for a warehouse in French is "entrep?t" or > "magasin" for a small one). > > Pieren > Hi Pieren is right. The original word has spread around. In Dutch a hangar is initially for planes, but we do use the same words as magazijn for a storage room or even a shop. But a large magazine is also called pakhuis - warehouse and an entrepot, the last one is also used for a customs facility, to prevent the trouble of making clearance papers over and over again.I agree that the original use or design should get back into the tag of a building. Youre able to reuse a church for condos, but the outside still will be a recognisable church.Like Martin said english ; aircrafts, I expect that all the old, since 1500, trading countries are roughly using the same names or expressions for a storage facility. And as its has been spread all over the world by the leading trading countries.GreetzPs with all this confusion, it seems IMHO that the Wiki has to be corrected a bit. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into
> 2. So that's no problem.
You seem to be not seeing the point.
Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and
that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in
an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then
codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what
we do.
So then we must ask "What is the standard way of representing a day of
the week in English?". The way is to look at a standard, such as the
locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale)
So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the
abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of
the week.
Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us:
>>> import time
>>> time.strftime("%a")
'Wed'
If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from),
strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to
display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my
case, en_US).
I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the
end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things
that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will
make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for
programmers to have something they expect.
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
I don't think three letters is quite as universal as you think. It's also
really common in English to use M,T,W,T,F,S,S (in context) or
M,Tu,W,Th,F,Sa,Su or variations. Since we have a defacto OSM standard with
two letters (the opening_hours key has over 100K uses), and it's
unambiguous, this seems like a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> > It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters
> into
> > 2. So that's no problem.
>
> You seem to be not seeing the point.
>
> Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and
> that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in
> an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then
> codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what
> we do.
>
> So then we must ask "What is the standard way of representing a day of
> the week in English?". The way is to look at a standard, such as the
> locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale)
>
> So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the
> abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of
> the week.
>
> Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us:
>
> >>> import time
> >>> time.strftime("%a")
> 'Wed'
>
> If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from),
> strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to
> display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my
> case, en_US).
>
> I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the
> end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things
> that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will
> make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for
> programmers to have something they expect.
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
2013/1/23 Martin Vonwald : > I just want to add my understanding of the building tags: > building=xxx (with no other tags like building:use): it looks like a > xxx and is used as xxx > building:use=xxx: it is used as xxx, but might not look like one > building:type=xxx: it looks like xxx, but might not be used as xxx I'm not sure I get this. If we say that the value for key "building" is a building type, then the key "building:type" would be the same, no? The key "building:use" on the other hand is usually given by other keys (landuse, shop, amenity, office, craft, tourism, aeroway, railway, ...) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
I didn't invent neither building:use nor building:type. I was also curious about building:type. I've seen these keys somewhere - cant remember where - and thought they were accepted. Obviously I was wrong. Regards, Martin Am 23.01.2013 um 16:59 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer : > 2013/1/23 Martin Vonwald : >> I just want to add my understanding of the building tags: >> building=xxx (with no other tags like building:use): it looks like a >> xxx and is used as xxx >> building:use=xxx: it is used as xxx, but might not look like one >> building:type=xxx: it looks like xxx, but might not be used as xxx > > > I'm not sure I get this. If we say that the value for key "building" > is a building type, then the key "building:type" would be the same, > no? The key "building:use" on the other hand is usually given by other > keys (landuse, shop, amenity, office, craft, tourism, aeroway, > railway, ...) > > cheers, > Martin > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
2013/1/23 Serge Wroclawski
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> > It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters
> into
> > 2. So that's no problem.
>
> You seem to be not seeing the point.
>
> Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and
> that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in
> an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then
> codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what
> we do.
>
> So then we must ask "What is the standard way of representing a day of
> the week in English?". The way is to look at a standard, such as the
> locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale)
>
> So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the
> abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of
> the week.
>
> Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us:
>
> >>> import time
> >>> time.strftime("%a")
> 'Wed'
>
> If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from),
> strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to
> display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my
> case, en_US).
>
Agreed, that's what C and Python do. On the other hand, there are many
examples of two-letters encoding in real life.
In Italian it's common to see Lu, Ma, Me, Gi, Ve, Sa, Do, even though it is
more widely used the three-letters variant Lun, Mar, Mer, Gio, Ven, Sab,
Dom. But you won't take that as a good reason - you refer to English.
I used to have a VCR, like twenty years ago, whose UI (all of the five
7-segment LCD characters) was in English. The lights that indicated DOW
read Mo, Tu, We, Th, Fr, Sa, Su.
> I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the
> end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things
> that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will
> make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for
> programmers to have something they expect.
>
I see with your point, and I agree that this is not the most important
decision to take. But the two-letters encoding is unambiguous and easy
enough to implement (encoding/decoding is just a map of key/values), just
like the three-letters version. None of them has a clear advantage, except
that opening_hours already uses the two-letters version.
Regards,
Simone
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Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Martin Vonwald > wrote: > > > * english: aircrafts > > Is that not used for boats as well ? Note that the english "hangar" > comes from the French "hangar". And the usage doesn't seem to be so > different (the correct word for a warehouse in French is "entrepôt" or > "magasin" for a small one). > > Pieren > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging If you are speaking of a building next to or over water, in which a boat is stored, that is a boathouse. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] wiki building=hangar
Martin Vonwald wrote: > I just want to add my understanding of the building tags: > > building=xxx (with no other tags like building:use): it looks like a > xxx and is used as xxx > building:use=xxx: it is used as xxx, but might not look like one > building:type=xxx: it looks like xxx, but might not be used as xxx > > So building=hangar to me is a building that was built as a hanger, > therefore looks like one and is used as one. If I now add > building:use=warehouse, it still looks like a hangar but is not used > as such but instead as a warehouse. > > Right/wrong/both of it? > > regards, > Martin > > 2013/1/23 Ronnie Soak : > > > >> > >> > >> +1, generally building typologies (that's what the value of > building > >> is about) are not refering to the actual usage but to the type of > >> building (e.g. a defiled church building which is now used as a > disco > >> would remain building=church without being an > >> amenity=place_of_worship). > >> > > +1 > > And this is also (maybe) the difference between building=hangar and > > aeroway=hangar > > The first should be building type, the second usage. > > > > > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Sounds good to me. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
