[Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread John Smith
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:sport&diff=prev&oldid=583789

I'd be more inclined to use the English and shorten it to just sport=cart

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Re: [Tagging] boundary=town, place=town

2011-01-10 Thread M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
2011/1/9 Georg Feddern :
> Steve Bennett schrieb:
>>
>> Although...that just raises a different question: what's the
>> difference between a town mapped out as an area (place=town) and a
>> town mapped with a boundary=administrative, admin_level=8 (plus
>> relation).
>>
>> I guess there is no difference


-1, the difference is that boundary describes the administrative area
while place describes the built-up area. If the two are the same,
there is no difference.


> at least in Germany place=town (area) is often used for the complete
> "settled area" with buildings.
> (In German there is an administrative term "geschlossene Ortschaft".)


-1, "geschlossene Ortschaft" is not an administrative term, it is a
term from traffic laws and is distinct from both (it is neither place
nor admin boundary)


> Whereas the boundary is the administrative border, often a quite bigger area
> including surrounding rural parts.


+1

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways

2011-01-10 Thread Richard Mann
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> So how does a renderer/router know if a nearby cycleway is the track
> referred to by the tag on the roadway, or if there's another unmapped
> cycleway between that one and the road? (This could happen, for
> example, if a rail trail parallels a road with a sidepath.)

I put adjacent=yes on the highway=cycleway, so the user of the
cycleway=track tag on the main road can ignore ways with adjacent=yes
on them. The user who'd prefer to use highway=cycleway ways doesn't
know that the cycleway=track is a duplicate, but routers only have to
give a slight preference for highway=cycleway over cycleway=track to
use the "right" one (and even if they use the "wrong" one, it doesn't
much matter anyway).

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread Steve Bennett
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:28 PM, John Smith  wrote:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:sport&diff=prev&oldid=583789
>
> I'd be more inclined to use the English and shorten it to just sport=cart

Definitely with a k. I actually tagged this sport recently, I took a
punt on sport=go_karting. Either that or sport=karting sounds ok to
me. (kart_racing is a bit un-natural)

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread John Smith
On 10 January 2011 23:52, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> Definitely with a k. I actually tagged this sport recently, I took a

Did I really need to say british english? cart with a k is american english.

> punt on sport=go_karting. Either that or sport=karting sounds ok to
> me. (kart_racing is a bit un-natural)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/go-cart

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread Erik Johansson
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:03 PM, John Smith  wrote:
> On 10 January 2011 23:52, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>> Definitely with a k. I actually tagged this sport recently, I took a
>
> Did I really need to say british english? cart with a k is american english.
>
>> punt on sport=go_karting. Either that or sport=karting sounds ok to
>> me. (kart_racing is a bit un-natural)
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/go-cart

It seems like all of the wikipedia pages uses "k", my gut reaction was
"c" but we can all be wrong.



[[bg:Картинг]]
[[ca:Kart]]
[[cs:Motokára]]
[[da:Gokart]]
[[de:Kartsport]]
[[en:Kart racing]]
[[es:Karting]]
[[eu:Karting]]
[[fa:کارتینگ]]
[[fi:Karting]]
[[fr:Karting]]
[[gl:Karting]]
[[he:קארטינג]]
[[hr:Karting]]
[[id:Gokar]]
[[it:Karting]]
[[ja:レーシングカート]]
[[lt:Kartingas]]
[[nl:Karting]]
[[no:Gokart]]
[[pl:Gokart]]
[[pt:Kart]]
[[ru:Картинг]]
[[simple:Kart racing]]
[[sk:Karting]]
[[sl:Karting]]
[[sr:Karting]]
[[ta:கார்ட்டு பந்தயம்]]
[[tr:Karting]]
[[uk:Картинг]]
[[zh:卡丁車]]

-- 
/emj

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread John Smith
On 11 January 2011 00:47, Erik Johansson  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:03 PM, John Smith  wrote:
>> On 10 January 2011 23:52, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>>> Definitely with a k. I actually tagged this sport recently, I took a
>>
>> Did I really need to say british english? cart with a k is american english.
>>
>>> punt on sport=go_karting. Either that or sport=karting sounds ok to
>>> me. (kart_racing is a bit un-natural)
>>
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/go-cart
>
> It seems like all of the wikipedia pages uses "k", my gut reaction was
> "c" but we can all be wrong.

Which matches what I said before about UK English :)

Wikipedia would be more likely to use US English being US based...

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread Erik Johansson
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:53 PM, John Smith  wrote:
> On 11 January 2011 00:47, Erik Johansson  wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:03 PM, John Smith  
>> wrote:
>>> On 10 January 2011 23:52, Steve Bennett  wrote:
 Definitely with a k. I actually tagged this sport recently, I took a
>>>
>>> Did I really need to say british english? cart with a k is american english.
>>>
 punt on sport=go_karting. Either that or sport=karting sounds ok to
 me. (kart_racing is a bit un-natural)
>>>
>>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/go-cart
>>
>> It seems like all of the wikipedia pages uses "k", my gut reaction was
>> "c" but we can all be wrong.
>
> Which matches what I said before about UK English :)
>
> Wikipedia would be more likely to use US English being US based...

I might have been a bit terse not pointing this out, so I think you
missed the 90% of my mail which consisted of a list of what karting is
called on the different wikipedia language editions.

MSA UK also uses "K"
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=765

Here you have the top 8 from wikipedia again.
[[bg:Картинг]]
[[ca:Kart]]
[[cs:Motokára]]
[[da:Gokart]]
[[de:Kartsport]]
[[en:Kart racing]]
[[es:Karting]]
[[eu:Karting]]

-- 
/emj

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Re: [Tagging] outdoor nature bath

2011-01-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 12:30 AM, John Smith  wrote:
> On 10 January 2011 01:42, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
>> I can't comment on the rest, but sport=swimming is incorrect unless
>> the area is for competitive swimming.
>
> -1
>
> Swimming pools don't have to be for competitive swimming, eg kiddy
> pools, but they aren't for bathing in either.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dswimming_pool

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Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane

2011-01-10 Thread Alex Mauer

On 12/31/2010 04:27 PM, Anthony wrote:

Any suggestions how to tag this?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG


cycleway=lane + hazard=narrow_bridge?  I know signs for “narrow bridge” 
[1] are common around here.  A google search [2] shows several variants.


I’m not sure that “hazard=narrow_bridge” would be the right way to tag 
such a sign, or if it would be completely correct to tag here since 
there is no sign.  In any case, it seems obvious that a narrow bridge 
would require extra caution for cyclists even if there are cycle lanes.


—Alex Mauer “hawke”

1. 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Narrow_Bridge_sign.svg/600px-Narrow_Bridge_sign.svg.png


2. 
http://www.google.com/images?client=ubuntu&channel=cs&q=narrow%20bridge%20sign&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=663



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Re: [Tagging] outdoor nature bath

2011-01-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
Nathan Edgars II  writes:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 12:30 AM, John Smith
>  wrote:
> > On 10 January 2011 01:42, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> >> I can't comment on the rest, but sport=swimming is incorrect unless
> >> the area is for competitive swimming.
> >
> > -1
> >
> > Swimming pools don't have to be for competitive swimming, eg kiddy
> > pools, but they aren't for bathing in either.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dswimming_pool
> 
sport=swimming does not seem like a good tagging of a general bathing area. 

The sport-key suggest, as Nathan says, a connection to the more devoted
swimsporters, a place with sport=swimming probably should have the possibility
to swim whole lengths. This could well be the cause in many bathing places, like
public swimming baths with 25 or 50 meters pools, those can of course be tagged
with sport=swimming too.

What I am looking for is a more general tag to say that it is a place to go for
a dip, maybe stay the day sun-bathing or swimming if suitable for that.

p.s.
Regarding the tag swimming_pool, there is a proposal for leisure=swimming_pool 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Swimming_pool
and another entry for amenity=swimming_pool
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dswimming_pool
they state that these are for both leisure and sport.
d.s.






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Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane

2011-01-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 12/31/2010 04:27 PM, Anthony wrote:
>>
>> Any suggestions how to tag this?
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG
>
> cycleway=lane + hazard=narrow_bridge?  I know signs for “narrow bridge” [1]
> are common around here.  A google search [2] shows several variants.
>
> I’m not sure that “hazard=narrow_bridge” would be the right way to tag such
> a sign, or if it would be completely correct to tag here since there is no
> sign.  In any case, it seems obvious that a narrow bridge would require
> extra caution for cyclists even if there are cycle lanes.

Along those lines, there's http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:narrow

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Re: [Tagging] outdoor nature bath

2011-01-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
Johan Jönsson  writes:
> --- Steve Bennett  skrev:
> > 2011/1/10 Johan Jönsson :
> > >
> > > My thoughts have been on a physical tag like leisure=bathing_area,
> > > leisure=public_bath or just simply leisure=bath. The later one would
> > be a tag
> > > for all kind of bathing facilities, both outdoor and indoor. Maybe the
> > noun
> > > "bath" isn´t a good one, it might imply some kind of building or
> > pool.
> > 
> > How about leisure=swimming? IMHO the word "bathe" is rarely used these
> > days, and is confused as noted above. Yes, there will be a confusion
> > between leisure=swimming and sport=swimming, but at least it will be
> > an obvious one that we can easily document and explain.
> > 
> > Steve
> 
> leisure=swimming
> I suppose that swimming in this use also is synonymous with taking a swim,
> taking a dip. 
> In most uses of the tag it could also mean bathing (that is bathe, the wading,
> floating and splashing experience), it could be a place also for those that
> can´t swim too. 
> But not directly "taking a bath" (with soap and shampoo), although there might
> be showers and soap-and-water-baths around too, that might have its own
amenity-tag.
> 
What I have learned from the thread.

Do not use the word bath/bathe as it has confusing double meanings. Maybe bath
could be used for some speciality markings later on.

The use of the key "sport:" could mean trouble if it isn´t a place where the
sport should be exercised for competition or closely connected to that.

I will start a new thread with another suggestion.

/Johan Jönsson 





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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread Ulf Lamping

Am 10.01.2011 12:28, schrieb John Smith:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:sport&diff=prev&oldid=583789

I'd be more inclined to use the English and shorten it to just sport=cart


Some time ago, I had a look at how sport=motor is actually used. By 
looking at the names in the OSM planet, I found some quite often 
existing stuff (motocross, karting, ...) as a name like: "Kartarena 
Bottrop" was tagged with the generic sport=motor and the name suggests 
to be a karting arena.


So I looked at how often sport=xy alternatives for e.g. karting appeared 
in tagwatch (taginfo, osmdoc, ...?). sport=karting was most often used 
and easy to remember (no underscore), so I've added it to the JOSM 
presets and mappaint display.


You'll find this and some other formerly sport=motor things in the JOSM 
presets under: sport/motorsport/...


Regards, ULFL

P.S: I don't tend to change this in JOSM ;-)

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[Tagging] Is the key leisure only a physical ta"?

2011-01-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
>From the wiki, I have drawn the conclusion that the key "leisure" is used to 
>tag
physical objects.

Can it be used for non-physical tags too? 

Is it possible to tag leisure=bathing; swimming; eating; drinking; 
or maybe leisure=movies; music?


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Re: [Tagging] Is the key leisure only a physical ta"?

2011-01-10 Thread John Smith
2011/1/11 Johan Jönsson :
> From the wiki, I have drawn the conclusion that the key "leisure" is used to 
> tag
> physical objects.
>
> Can it be used for non-physical tags too?
>
> Is it possible to tag leisure=bathing; swimming; eating; drinking;

eating and drinking are usually tagged more specifically, eg
restaurant or fast food etc...

> or maybe leisure=movies; music?

Again these can be tagged more specifically, although for movies I can
only think of movie theaters, as for music you can have concert halls
and opera places etc. A lot of big concerts will use sports stadiums
as well, but that isn't the primary use of that location.

Where as bathing and to a lesser extent swimming are venue specific activities.

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Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways

2011-01-10 Thread Robert Elsenaar

Dear Nathan,

This replay seems to be a little off-topic, but I want to put it here 
anyway.
Sinds I started this topic it became clear that several people understands 
that there is a general problem with seperated cycleways not being part 
anymore of the main road. They mainly try to find a solution for it by 
pointing out their effort.


You are only breaking down their states by generating situations in which 
the solution is not working. I suggest you start continuing your 
participation by appoching their effort more possitively and coming up with 
your own solutions. We are not each other opponents, but collegues. Please, 
act like one.


-Robert-
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Nathan Edgars II

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:29 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: [SPAM]: Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways



On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Richard Mann
 wrote:

No. As I said earlier in this discussion, even when there are
highway=cycleway ways, I leave the cycleway=track tag in place on the
road (and indeed add it if it isn't already there), so that both
tagging styles are available for data users. It is much easier to
render the cycle tracks beautifully (unlike ocm, for instance) if the
cycleway=track tag is used.


So how does a renderer/router know if a nearby cycleway is the track
referred to by the tag on the roadway, or if there's another unmapped
cycleway between that one and the road? (This could happen, for
example, if a rail trail parallels a road with a sidepath.)

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Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways

2011-01-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Robert Elsenaar  wrote:
> Dear Nathan,
>
> This replay seems to be a little off-topic, but I want to put it here
> anyway.
> Sinds I started this topic it became clear that several people understands
> that there is a general problem with seperated cycleways not being part
> anymore of the main road. They mainly try to find a solution for it by
> pointing out their effort.
>
> You are only breaking down their states by generating situations in which
> the solution is not working. I suggest you start continuing your
> participation by appoching their effort more possitively and coming up with
> your own solutions. We are not each other opponents, but collegues. Please,
> act like one.

What the hell...?

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Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways

2011-01-10 Thread M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
2011/1/10 Robert Elsenaar :
> Sinds I started this topic it became clear that several people understands
> that there is a general problem with seperated cycleways not being part
> anymore of the main road.


Can you explain this? What do you mean by "beeing part of the road"?
Isn't this about separate cycleways? Several people also understood
that there are problems with separate cycleways not beeing mapped but
only implied with tags on another road. Either way you do it, there
are pros and cons.

The only con for mapping them separately is that they currently render
in some cases not so well, if the map is focussed on cars.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways

2011-01-10 Thread Robert Elsenaar

Dear Nathan,

With that kind of reaction it is hard for me to take you seriously in the 
future.
I'd hoped you understand my cry to have you put yourselve in a positive mode 
again.

I keep hoping.

-robert-

-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Nathan Edgars II

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:16 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: [SPAM]: Re: [Tagging] Differences in cycleways



On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Robert Elsenaar  
wrote:

Dear Nathan,

This replay seems to be a little off-topic, but I want to put it here
anyway.
Sinds I started this topic it became clear that several people understands
that there is a general problem with seperated cycleways not being part
anymore of the main road. They mainly try to find a solution for it by
pointing out their effort.

You are only breaking down their states by generating situations in which
the solution is not working. I suggest you start continuing your
participation by appoching their effort more possitively and coming up 
with
your own solutions. We are not each other opponents, but collegues. 
Please,

act like one.


What the hell...?

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Re: [Tagging] Towing service?

2011-01-10 Thread Alan Mintz

At 2011-01-07 02:19, Ulf Lamping wrote:

Am 07.01.2011 03:26, schrieb Alan Mintz:

I can't find a tag for the base of operations of a towing service - i.e.
you call them to tow your broken car or truck to a repair shop. The
basic definition would be a service that tows cars and other "light"
vehicles. Truck and other heavy vehicle towing would be a separate
option. I propose:

shop=towing [+ hgv=yes]


For me, a shop would be to get in, buy something (or at least get some 
service done) and go out. That's not the case here. A towing service will 
get to your place to do something, much like the office of a plumber 
(which in most cases also wouldn't "qualify" for a shop).


You might even won't be allowed to enter the area.


Agreed. So other than "don't tag it", can someone suggest what such a place 
should be tagged? Really, it's like any other sort of service-based 
business or office of some other kind of non-retail business.


--
Alan Mintz 


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[Tagging] Fwd: Re: Towing service?

2011-01-10 Thread Alan Mintz

I wrote:

At 2011-01-07 02:19, Ulf Lamping wrote:

Am 07.01.2011 03:26, schrieb Alan Mintz:

I can't find a tag for the base of operations of a towing service - i.e.
you call them to tow your broken car or truck to a repair shop. The
basic definition would be a service that tows cars and other "light"
vehicles. Truck and other heavy vehicle towing would be a separate
option. I propose:

shop=towing [+ hgv=yes]


For me, a shop would be to get in, buy something (or at least get some 
service done) and go out. That's not the case here. A towing service will 
get to your place to do something, much like the office of a plumber 
(which in most cases also wouldn't "qualify" for a shop).


You might even won't be allowed to enter the area.


Agreed. So other than "don't tag it", can someone suggest what such a 
place should be tagged? Really, it's like any other sort of service-based 
business or office of some other kind of non-retail business.


I wrote this before I realized there were other replies on this topic. 
Based on them, it seems the closest fit is office=towing, since that's what 
such a place is primarily used for - accounting, answering the phone, etc.


I'll use and document this if there is no significant opposition.

--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Tagging] Is the key leisure only a physical ta"?

2011-01-10 Thread Steve Bennett

 On 11/01/2011 7:06 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:

 From the wiki, I have drawn the conclusion that the key "leisure" is used to 
tag
physical objects.

Can it be used for non-physical tags too?

Is it possible to tag leisure=bathing; swimming; eating; drinking;
or maybe leisure=movies; music?
IMHO, the fact that "leisure=pitch" is ok, but "leisure=eating" might 
not be says much more about the English language than it does about any 
fundamental categorisation of tags.


My understanding: there is no "physical/non-physical" distinction. Tags 
are assessed on a case-by-case basis.


Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Karting...

2011-01-10 Thread Steve Bennett

 On 11/01/2011 1:53 AM, John Smith wrote:


Which matches what I said before about UK English :)

Hi John,
  "Go kart" is spelt with a k. Everywhere. Let's move on. Thanks.

Steve

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[Tagging] Equivalence relation (was: Re: Differences in cycleways)

2011-01-10 Thread Steve Bennett

 On 11/01/2011 12:20 AM, Richard Mann wrote:

I put adjacent=yes on the highway=cycleway, so the user of the
cycleway=track tag on the main road can ignore ways with adjacent=yes
on them. The user who'd prefer to use highway=cycleway ways doesn't
know that the cycleway=track is a duplicate, but routers only have to
give a slight preference for highway=cycleway over cycleway=track to
use the "right" one (and even if they use the "wrong" one, it doesn't
much matter anyway).
IMHO, this is being extremely optimistic about the powers of a router. 
So you're saying that a router could see the "adjacent=yes", then locate 
a nearby cycleway which is "adjacent" in some way, and conclude that the 
two refer to the same thing?


My suggestion: let's get a relation happening, asap. Something like:

Relation:
* type=equivalence

Road:
* cycleway=track
* role: cycleway

Bike path:
* highway=cycleway
* role: highway


This is just brainstorming. But the idea is you'd read the above as "the 
cycleway tag on this road refers to the same object as the highway tag 
on the bike path".


The same could then apply to things like a central node for a large object:

Relation:
* type=equivalence

Node:
* amenity=hospital
* role: amenity

Area:
* amenity=hospital
* role: amenity

The relation is saying that there is only one hospital, and it is 
defined twice.


(This example makes me think there could be a default, so you don't 
always have to specify the roles...but that could be messy).


Steve

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[Tagging] Proposed Feature - 2nd RFC - Public Transport

2011-01-10 Thread Dominik Mahrer (Teddy)

Hi all

One month ago I already posted an RFC on this proposal. In the meantime 
I got plenty of comments and I have extended/corrected/rewritten nearly 
the whole proposal.


Please visit again
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport

Regards
Teddych

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Re: [Tagging] Is the key leisure only a physical ta"?

2011-01-10 Thread Johan Jönsson
Steve Bennett  writes:
> 
>   On 11/01/2011 7:06 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
> >  From the wiki, I have drawn the conclusion that the key "leisure" is used
to tag
> > physical objects.
> >
> > Can it be used for non-physical tags too?
> >...
>... 
> My understanding: there is no "physical/non-physical" distinction. Tags 
> are assessed on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Steve
> 
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
I must have had ancient information and made some selective reading.
/Johan J





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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Re: Towing service?

2011-01-10 Thread John Smith
On 11 January 2011 10:28, Alan Mintz  wrote:
> I wrote this before I realized there were other replies on this topic. Based
> on them, it seems the closest fit is office=towing, since that's what such a
> place is primarily used for - accounting, answering the phone, etc.

What was wrong with landuse=depot, they have to park the tow trucks
somewhere just like buses need to be parked at a depot when not in
use.

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Re: Towing service?

2011-01-10 Thread Elizabeth Dodd
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 17:39:18 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> > I wrote this before I realized there were other replies on this
> > topic. Based on them, it seems the closest fit is office=towing,
> > since that's what such a place is primarily used for - accounting,
> > answering the phone, etc.  
> 
> What was wrong with landuse=depot, they have to park the tow trucks
> somewhere just like buses need to be parked at a depot when not in
> use.

probably need both, because you are describing 2 different things

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