Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthony wrote: > Any suggestions how to tag this? > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG If the "lane" is too narrow to function safely as a bike lane, then I would break the street way at this point, code the portion of the way that has the functional bike lane as cycleway=lane (if this is not a dual carriageway then use cycleway:left/right as apporopriate), and add a note tag that the bike lane going beyond is too narrow to serve as a bike lane. If the bike lane widens some distance after the restriction, then break the way again and tag that section with cycleway=lane again, leaving the non-functional stretch without a cycleway tag. My experience is that people who ride bikes on busy streets (which this one seems to be) don't like surprises, so showing a gap lets them know that something requires attention at that point. I think we will see routing software in the very near future that will list note tags. Ed Hillsman___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Ed Hillsman wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthony wrote: >> Any suggestions how to tag this? >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG > > If the "lane" is too narrow to function safely as a bike lane, then I would > break the street way at this point Unfortunately this advice will cause more problems than it will solve. I'd love to remove cycleway=lane from all door-zone bike lanes, but I can't see this happening. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 13:08, Ed Hillsman wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthonyhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>> wrote: >/ Any suggestions how to tag this? />/ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG/ If the "lane" is too narrow to function safely as a bike lane, then I would break the street way at this point, code the portion of the way that has the functional bike lane as cycleway=lane (if this is not a dual carriageway then use cycleway:left/right as apporopriate), and add a note tag that the bike lane going beyond is too narrow to serve as a bike lane. If the bike lane widens some distance after the restriction, then break the way again and tag that section with cycleway=lane again, leaving the non-functional stretch without a cycleway tag. My experience is that people who ride bikes on busy streets (which this one seems to be) don't like surprises, so showing a gap lets them know that something requires attention at that point. I think we will see routing software in the very near future that will list note tags. Ed Hillsman Well, if it's the width that Anthony is concerned about: 1. I wouldn't class this as too narrow for a bike lane. Single file, yes, but still wide enough to cycle. 2. Use width=* Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: > Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer > passage. It's a sidewalk, and it's most likely not safer because of the upcoming intersection, which appears to have a right turn (across the sidewalk) to access the toll road southbound. Safest would be to get into the lane to the left of the bike lane. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: >> Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer >> passage. > > It's a sidewalk, and it's most likely not safer because of the > upcoming intersection, which appears to have a right turn (across the > sidewalk) to access the toll road southbound. Safest would be to get > into the lane to the left of the bike lane. I saw someone use it a few days ago who moved to the left to basically ride the paint of the lane separator then shifted back after the bridge. There weren't any cars passing him at the time, though. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
I agree with the notion of not having surprises, but I think going down the path of judgement about bike lanes being inadequate and not tagging them is going to lead to a mess. I lean towards saying if there is a cycle lane painted on the road (and more or less if the road authority says there is one), then it should be tagged as such. Then, if it's too narrow, put a width tag (with the actual width). If it's in a door kill zone due to parking behing allowed next to it, add a tag that says exactly that. Then someone can render maps that don't show cycle lanes with particular tags, or routers can avoid them, or whatever else someone thinks of. But, I think it's probably better to show them with some danger crosshatch, or skull and crossbones, or whatever -- my view is that the point of rendered maps is to efficiently communicate reality to someone who hasn't yet encountered it. By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to "is it a bike lane"). pgpxKGQcyfsgN.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
I agree with the notion of not having surprises, but I think going down the path of judgement about bike lanes being inadequate and not tagging them is going to lead to a mess. I lean towards saying if there is a cycle lane painted on the road (and more or less if the road authority says there is one), then it should be tagged as such. Then, if it's too narrow, put a width tag (with the actual width). If it's in a door kill zone due to parking behing allowed next to it, add a tag that says exactly that. Then someone can render maps that don't show cycle lanes with particular tags, or routers can avoid them, or whatever else someone thinks of. But, I think it's probably better to show them with some danger crosshatch, or skull and crossbones, or whatever -- my view is that the point of rendered maps is to efficiently communicate reality to someone who hasn't yet encountered it. By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to "is it a bike lane"). pgpABmVCiSfTt.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: > By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of > course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in > general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
It does look like, even if the bicycle itself fit entirely within the bike lane, the left side of the rider's body would be over the line into the driving lane. I remember once seeing a photograph of a bike lane in Holland that was even worse; the lane narrowed to less than a foot wide, along the very brink of a canal. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane >From :mailto:o...@inbox.org Date :Sat Jan 01 10:52:48 America/Chicago 2011 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: > By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of > course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in > general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. for the lane depicted in the picture, cycleway=lane width=* hazard:outside=barrier where hazard is understood to sometimes be judgmental, e.g. cycleway=lane width=* hazard=car_door richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: >>> >>> By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of >>> course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in >>> general, and where the dividing line is. >> >> In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle >> to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. > > the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion > in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. > maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. What do you mean by "judgmental"? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 12:40 PM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelwrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. What do you mean by "judgmental"? there have been arguments about whether safety considerations should factor into bike lane tagging, with some taking the posture that only physical and legal attributes should be mapped, and others wanting to include their judgment about whether a particular lane or path is "safe" for some definition of safe. so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something like hazard=sewer_grate if such a tag existed richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Why addr:state rather than is_in:state? (response to 2010-12-26 05:29:46)
Sorry for this little off-topic remark. In my remark "addr" is the main tag or main key. "state" is the sub tag or sub key. The symbol ":" indicates that "state" is telling something about "addr". I was wandering why this way of defining some objects in more detail is not a more common method and only used in some specific keys like 'addr". -robert- -Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Serge Wroclawski Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 2:07 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] Why addr:state rather than is_in:state? (response to 2010-12-26 05:29:46) On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Robert Elsenaar wrote: Totally agree. More over, every time you use the symbol ":" in your tag, you mean that the subtag is telling something more specific about the maintag thats in front of it. I have no idea what "subtag" and "maintag" are, but the symbol tag shouldn't be there. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging --- Tekst ingevoegd door Panda GP 2011: Als het hier gaat om een ongevraagde e-mail (SPAM), klik dan op de volgende link om de e-mail te herclasseren: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_1290&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202011\AntiSpam --- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subjective Tags was: designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 18:09, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/1/11 12:40 PM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelwrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. What do you mean by "judgmental"? there have been arguments about whether safety considerations should factor into bike lane tagging, with some taking the posture that only physical and legal attributes should be mapped, and others wanting to include their judgment about whether a particular lane or path is "safe" for some definition of safe. The main problem with subjective data was that people wanted to use the existing tags designed to describe the legality to describe "difficulty" (ability) of a way. As long as different tags are used (as you describe) I see no problem with providing warnings Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. > i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 > in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something > like > > hazard=sewer_grate > > if such a tag existed I've been using cycle_hazard (mainly for sidepaths with frequent driveway/side road crossings). It probably makes sense to separately tag bicycle-specific hazards; a general hazard would be something like hazard=falling_rocks. Would hazard:bicycle be a better format than cycle_hazard? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subjective Tags was: designated bike lane
I think that adding a hazard=xyz tag is a good suggestion. A bike-route renderer could then allow someone considering a ride to decide which hazards they were willing to accept, and which to avoid, and adjust the suggested route accordingly. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Subjective Tags was: designated bike lane >From :mailto:dave...@madasafish.com Date :Sat Jan 01 12:41:30 America/Chicago 2011 On 01/01/2011 18:09, Richard Welty wrote: > On 1/1/11 12:40 PM, Anthony wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard >> Welty wrote: >>> On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelwrote: > By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of > course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't > safe in > general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. >>> the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion >>> in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. >>> maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. >> What do you mean by "judgmental"? > there have been arguments about whether safety considerations > should factor into bike lane tagging, with some taking the posture > that only physical and legal attributes should be mapped, and others > wanting to include their judgment about whether a particular lane > or path is "safe" for some definition of safe. The main problem with subjective data was that people wanted to use the existing tags designed to describe the legality to describe "difficulty" (ability) of a way. As long as different tags are used (as you describe) I see no problem with providing warnings Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Ultimate list of approved keys
Hi, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features lists a certain portion of approved tags. - Why only a part of all approved tags are mentioned here? - Where should I go to find the ultimate list of approved tags? -Robert- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
"hazard:bicycle" is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. "hazard=narrow" then you can easily use "cycleway:hazard=narrow" to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow I think this is a beautifull set of tags that describes objectivity the shown situation. -Robert- -Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Nathan Edgars II Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 7:49 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Richard Welty wrote: so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something like hazard=sewer_grate if such a tag existed I've been using cycle_hazard (mainly for sidepaths with frequent driveway/side road crossings). It probably makes sense to separately tag bicycle-specific hazards; a general hazard would be something like hazard=falling_rocks. Would hazard:bicycle be a better format than cycle_hazard? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging --- Tekst ingevoegd door Panda GP 2011: Als het hier gaat om een ongevraagde e-mail (SPAM), klik dan op de volgende link om de e-mail te herclasseren: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_1296&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202011\AntiSpam --- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaar wrote: > "hazard:bicycle" is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. > "hazard=narrow" then you can easily use "cycleway:hazard=narrow" to tag the > fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. > > highway=* > cycleway:right=lane > cycleway:width=0.5 > cycleway:hazard=narrow But the hazard won't always be in a cycleway. For instance there may be streetcar tracks in the road - fine for motorists, but cyclists have to watch out. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaar wrote: "hazard:bicycle" is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. "hazard=narrow" then you can easily use "cycleway:hazard=narrow" to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow I think this is a beautifull set of tags that describes objectivity the shown situation. i'm going to suggest that we don't do narrow in this manner. going back to the photo that started this whole thing, i'd suggest cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=barrier to indicate that the lane is narrow (width is sufficient indication of this) and that there's a physical barrier to one side. the cyclist should be able to infer that s/he'll be riding in a narrow lane with traffic to one side and a barrier to the other. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:36:54 -0500 Greg Troxel wrote: > If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes > sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ > and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and > then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to > "is it a bike lane"). agreed In Australia there is a minimum width for a bike lane, which does not include the concrete guttering. Anything less than this is not a bike lane, whether it has a sign or not. The local-sign-erecting-authority should also have a warning sign for the bridge where the allocated space is just too small. Bike_lane=undernourished and bike_lane=death_trap are what spring to mind. I'd ride in the car lane or use another street ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ultimate list of approved keys
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Robert Elsenaar wrote: > Hi, > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features lists a certain portion of > approved tags. > > - Why only a part of all approved tags are mentioned here? One of the key strengths of OpenStreetMap is that there is no approval process required for tags. The closest thing that we have to an official policy on this is "use any tag" as reflected here http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/116/which-tags-do-i-use http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/671/how-do-i-propose-an-official-tag So while any tag is possible, some tags are better than others. There are many guidelines to determine better tags, for example, duplicating an existing tag with a different spelling makes little sense. Some OSM editing programs have presets for various objects that make tagging simpler. Those tags will be used more often than other variations. Some tags are more likely to be rendered in various map rendering styles. Those tags that are rendered are often more appealing to mappers because mappers like feedback. There is overlap, though perhaps not 100%, between these two sets of tags. That doesn't make them "official" though. > - Where should I go to find the ultimate list of approved tags? There isn't one. There are several tools that let you see all of the tags currently in use in the OSM data base, and show the relative frequency of use. This is very helpful if you want to decide between existing tags, though some find these sites a little imposing initially. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
