Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 28/06/2010 08:57, Richard Fairhurst a écrit :

Liz wrote:
   

Where I live there are FOUR games played all called "football".
Only one really uses the feet on the ball
 

http://www.saasta.fi/saasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/handegg.jpg

cheers
Richard
   

Just a thought :
Aks people throughout the wordl : "What sort of sport is play d actualy 
in South Africa" for the "Mundial".

I'm quite shure the dominant answer would be "football".
--
FrViPofm

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[pavithran]

On 27 June 2010 17:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> -1, AFAIK we use soccer in Germany, Italy and probably elsewhere,
> while football refers to american football (looking at the icons,
> preset icons, etc.).

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer redirected to
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fußball
where I could guess that the article is mostly about football via the
pictures .

Italian term is definitely ambigous
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football says something that its an
'english term'

Regards,
Pavithran

-- 
pavithran sakamuri
http://look-pavi.blogspot.com

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[pavithran]

On 28 June 2010 12:43, Vincent Pottier  wrote:

> Just a thought :
> Aks people throughout the wordl : "What sort of sport is play d actualy in
> South Africa" for the "Mundial".
> I'm quite shure the dominant answer would be "football".
+1
Well I am prejudiced because in India we dont even play american
football or rugby . And the term football always means football .
Soccer is least understood . Many dont know what it is !

Regards,
Pavithran

-- 
pavithran sakamuri
http://look-pavi.blogspot.com

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[charlie]

pavithran (pavithra...@gmail.com) wrote:



Italian term is definitely ambiguous
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football says something that its an
'english term'

Going slightly OT, but Italian uses the word "calcio" normally,  
literally "kick".  I've rarely heard anyone use the word "football" or  
(even less so) "soccer" unless they're talking to a foreigner.



--
Charlie


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 pavithran :
> On 27 June 2010 17:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>>
>> -1, AFAIK we use soccer in Germany, Italy and probably elsewhere,
>> while football refers to american football (looking at the icons,
>> preset icons, etc.).
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer redirected to
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fußball
> where I could guess that the article is mostly about football via the
> pictures .
>
> Italian term is definitely ambigous
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football says something that its an
> 'english term'


I didn't say we use "soccer" in our local language (this would be
"Fußball" or "calcio"), but we use "sport=soccer" in OSM.

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 Jason Cunningham :
> Yes, the wiki needs to be changed to tell people not to use the insulting
> word 'soccer', especially as we try to use British English to stop tags
> getting confusing.


-1, no the wiki is documenting the actual usage of tags, it is not an
authority to change the common usage of tags, but to document it. As
you can see by numbers "soccer" is outreaching "football" by factor
12. Changing the wiki would actually be an insult against the users
that map how the consensus is (was?).

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ? - OSM ambiguity

[Gianfranco Gliozzo]

Brilliant!

>
http://www.saasta.fi/saasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/handegg.jpg

May
I use it?

Anyway, going seriously



I think Martin has been
misunderstood.

In Italy we currently use "calcio"
our
federation is F.I.G.C.
That means literaly
Federation. Italian.
Game. Calcio

my home town team is "Calcio Catania"
whose official website is http://www.calciocatania.it/

I think
Martin has been misunderstood, some of them use soccer on tagging in
OSM and to avoid misunderstandings when speaking with people not able
to distinguish a ball from an egg and a hand from a foot.
Just kidding.

The first time I have known the
term soccer was buying an American game on "calcio".

The
question is which language we have to use for tagging?
If
we want to endorse British English as our standard we have to
use it not only for soccer/football disambiguation but also for
footway/sidewalk since footway as in the oxford dictionary is mainly
a British term infact it is not in the WordNet linguistic resource
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
developed in Princeton.
Or we have to define an OSM lingo?
The probem basically stands in the
ambiguity of the project.
We have three conflicting issues in the
project.
The project is OpenStreetMAP
and some users, like me, are proud of their job if they see a nice
map coming from their edits. Therefore rendering for someone is a
priority.
The
project define itself like the wikipedia for maps, but in wikipedia
you can edit in your own language as in all web application where
you tag something. Moreover in the wiki there is, you
can use any tag you like
I would like to tag in Italian then and this statement allow me to
do it but it is conflicting with point 1.
But
another motto is tag
for the database don't tag for the render
that is also conflicting with point 2.




The
only way to overcome such inconsistencies as
OSM is now is:
abandon
point 2 and decide a standard either british or american english or a
OSM lingo, but I do not like this.
I
prefer a smart development of the project to resemble more like
wikipedia.



Cheers



Gianfranco



  
_
Non sei a casa? Accedi a Messenger dal Web.
http://www.messenger.it/web/default.aspx___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Pieren]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:42 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> -1
>
>
Just note that 'soccer' and 'football' seem to be both present in JOSM
presets...
Anyway, I will not fight for such tags but it seems that in this list, some
people are always agains changes "because it is documented like that in the
wiki". Just asking myself if we need a wiki if we cannot change/improve
things ...
Then say officially that once a tag is present more than 1000 times in the
db, we cannot change its wiki and freeze the page or move it to an html
documentation.

Pieren
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ? - OSM ambiguity

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 18:56, Gianfranco Gliozzo  wrote:
> abandon point 2 and decide a standard either british or american english or
> a OSM lingo, but I do not like this.

The problem is people are assuming key/values are supposed to be in
any language, when they're actually for computers to do something
useful with.

I'm kidding, but we could be using numbers and then defining what
those numbers mean in various language files to fix this problem.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 John Smith :
> emergency=siren ?
>
> I'm sure this sort of thing deserves it's own category.


+1, and some subtag if the reason/function is specific (siren=tsunami
or siren=storm_warning or something similar and more English).

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 19:09, Pieren  wrote:
> Just note that 'soccer' and 'football' seem to be both present in JOSM
> presets...
> Anyway, I will not fight for such tags but it seems that in this list, some
> people are always agains changes "because it is documented like that in the
> wiki". Just asking myself if we need a wiki if we cannot change/improve
> things ...
> Then say officially that once a tag is present more than 1000 times in the
> db, we cannot change its wiki and freeze the page or move it to an html
> documentation.

If there is a good reason I doubt anyone would stop you from
depreciating a tag, but in this case changing soccer to football seems
to be changing a tag that is widely used into something that fits your
perception of the world. In other words, change for the sake of
change.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/6/28 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :
> 2010/6/28 John Smith :
>> emergency=siren ?
>>
>> I'm sure this sort of thing deserves it's own category.
>
>
> +1, and some subtag if the reason/function is specific (siren=tsunami
> or siren=storm_warning or something similar and more English).
>

+1 too, but I think there're rarerly specific - they are usually
noticed as 'civil emergency sirens'.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 Pieren :
> Just note that 'soccer' and 'football' seem to be both present in JOSM
> presets...


+1, and please note that the icon for "football" shows a handegg.


> Anyway, I will not fight for such tags but it seems that in this list, some
> people are always agains changes "because it is documented like that in the
> wiki". Just asking myself if we need a wiki if we cannot change/improve
> things ...


no, "documented in the wiki" can mean different things, as the wiki is
open to everyone for changing it. The general consensus is to use the
actual tagging as basis for the information given in the wiki, and not
to change the wiki in order to make people tag differently.

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 19:12, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2010/6/28 John Smith :
>> emergency=siren ?
>>
>> I'm sure this sort of thing deserves it's own category.
>
>
> +1, and some subtag if the reason/function is specific (siren=tsunami
> or siren=storm_warning or something similar and more English).

You could, if you knew, tag the type of siren, according to wikipedia
they are usually pneumatic or electronic

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dsiren

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/6/28 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :
> 2010/6/28 Pieren :
>> Just note that 'soccer' and 'football' seem to be both present in JOSM
>> presets...
>
>
> +1, and please note that the icon for "football" shows a handegg.
>
>
>> Anyway, I will not fight for such tags but it seems that in this list, some
>> people are always agains changes "because it is documented like that in the
>> wiki". Just asking myself if we need a wiki if we cannot change/improve
>> things ...
>
>
> no, "documented in the wiki" can mean different things, as the wiki is
> open to everyone for changing it. The general consensus is to use the
> actual tagging as basis for the information given in the wiki, and not
> to change the wiki in order to make people tag differently.
>

The reason why I hate these disscussions because most of arguments are
for arguments sake, not for seeking middle ground, making a consensus,
changing wiki if necessary and moving on. And don't tell me it's not
possible - it is - just it feels that *almost* everyone is here for
"hey, I must be right" sake.

Current usage documented on wiki makes sense and I don't see reason to
change it. Tag soccer fields with soccer (heck, everyone outside UK is
told tad soccer is classic football in their English classes), tag
rugby fields with sport = rugby, etc. and that's it.

Is there something that doesn't make sense in this scheme? So far I
haven't found it. Period.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Richard Mann]

The only thing missing on the wiki, as far as I could see, was
something sensible for American Football. It is not sensible to use
"football" for American Football, since the most likely meaning if
someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is
that they mean Association Football.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Claudius Henrichs]

Am 28.06.2010 11:27, Peteris Krisjanis:

The reason why I hate these disscussions because most of arguments are
for arguments sake, not for seeking middle ground, making a consensus,
changing wiki if necessary and moving on. And don't tell me it's not
possible - it is - just it feels that*almost*  everyone is here for
"hey, I must be right" sake.

Current usage documented on wiki makes sense and I don't see reason to
change it. Tag soccer fields with soccer (heck, everyone outside UK is
told tad soccer is classic football in their English classes), tag
rugby fields with sport = rugby, etc. and that's it.

Is there something that doesn't make sense in this scheme? So far I
haven't found it. Period.
   

Yehooova, yehoova. He didn't distinguish rugby union and rugby league!
I declare the next round in this disussion open :D
(And btw. I keep tagging sport=soccer for the german "Fußball")

Claudius
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/6/28 Richard Mann :
> The only thing missing on the wiki, as far as I could see, was
> something sensible for American Football. It is not sensible to use
> "football" for American Football, since the most likely meaning if
> someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is
> that they mean Association Football.

Well, let's add then sport=american_football then? Propose it and I
think most of us will vote for it.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 19:47, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:
> Well, let's add then sport=american_football then? Propose it and I
> think most of us will vote for it.

And then add a page for sport=football and just football pointing to
all the different sports named football by various people in the
world.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 19:34, Richard Mann
 wrote:
> "football" for American Football, since the most likely meaning if
> someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is
> that they mean Association Football.

I disagree, if you said sport=football to people in Australia it
literally means at least 4 different sports depending on their
cultural/regional backgrounds, tag:sport=football should point to a
page that shows all the various sports people refer to as football.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Jason Cunningham]

Stephen, you missed the point I was making. I dont agree with sport=football
because, as you say, there are numerous versions of football out there.

What I have brought into the discussion is soccer is considered an insulting
word for 'association football' for 'football supporters' in the UK.
In England and Scotland we had a class split between Rugby Union and
Association Football.
The English/Scottish rich played Rugby Union and the working class played
Association Football.
The English rich sent their children to expensive boarding schools, where in
most cases Association Football was not allowed because it was seen as a
working class sport.
The English rich decided they didnt like using the long 'association
football', and were understandably unhappy about the working class stealing
the term 'football' for the working class game. So the rich English came up
with the term soccer.
Soccer was invented and used by the rich English to be slightly insulting,
although some will argue that is not the case.
Where there is no argument is that many working class English and Scottish
football supporters have a hatred of the term soccer because in England and
Scotland it is used by rich people or rugby supporters, and always said with
a slight sneer.
(Several countries dont like the use of the word 'football' to describe
Association Football and these countries used the word soccer. Ironically I
used soccer as child in Ireland)

As a result a lot of British football supporters will see the use of soccer,
when we could use association_football, as a deliberate insult. Seeing their
teams 'football stadiums' labelled as soccer stadiums is close to a
deceleration of war.
I would be confident in sport=soccer at some point resulting in large
amounts of vandalism to OSM.

So I suggest, football=association_football

Jason

No, Jason, what is insulting is when soccer players/fans try to claim
> exclusive use of a word which has been used for hundreds of years for
> many sports, of which soccer is one on the most recent, and also the
> least like the original.  Original football banned kicking the ball,
> it was carried and thrown only.
>
> You can recommend association_football if you like, but I would bet
> many more people can tell you what soccer is than association
> football.
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Claudius Henrichs]

It looks like the class struggle you are trying to revive is long over 
in most of the british OSM mappers. Or maybe the intersection between 
"british football supporters" and osm mappers is to little :) Because 
even famous Wembley Stadium is tagged with sport=soccer 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/59147814/history


Any more opinions from anyone in the UK would be interesting?
Claudius

Am 28.06.2010 12:02, Jason Cunningham:
Stephen, you missed the point I was making. I dont agree with 
sport=football because, as you say, there are numerous versions of 
football out there.


What I have brought into the discussion is soccer is considered an 
insulting word for 'association football' for 'football supporters' in 
the UK.
In England and Scotland we had a class split between Rugby Union and 
Association Football.
The English/Scottish rich played Rugby Union and the working class 
played Association Football.
The English rich sent their children to expensive boarding schools, 
where in most cases Association Football was not allowed because it 
was seen as a working class sport.
The English rich decided they didnt like using the long 'association 
football', and were understandably unhappy about the working class 
stealing the term 'football' for the working class game. So the rich 
English came up with the term soccer.
Soccer was invented and used by the rich English to be slightly 
insulting, although some will argue that is not the case.
Where there is no argument is that many working class English and 
Scottish football supporters have a hatred of the term soccer because 
in England and Scotland it is used by rich people or rugby supporters, 
and always said with a slight sneer.
(Several countries dont like the use of the word 'football' to 
describe Association Football and these countries used the word 
soccer. Ironically I used soccer as child in Ireland)


As a result a lot of British football supporters will see the use of 
soccer, when we could use association_football, as a deliberate 
insult. Seeing their teams 'football stadiums' labelled as soccer 
stadiums is close to a deceleration of war.
I would be confident in sport=soccer at some point resulting in large 
amounts of vandalism to OSM.


So I suggest, football=association_football

Jason

No, Jason, what is insulting is when soccer players/fans try to claim
exclusive use of a word which has been used for hundreds of years for
many sports, of which soccer is one on the most recent, and also the
least like the original.  Original football banned kicking the ball,
it was carried and thrown only.

You can recommend association_football if you like, but I would bet
many more people can tell you what soccer is than association
football.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
   


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

> I would be confident in sport=soccer at some point resulting in large
> amounts of vandalism to OSM.
>
> So I suggest, football=association_football

So there are two suggestions:
1) current one, avoid using sport = football and use
sport=soccer,rugby,etc. (sorry, but I don't buy insult argument,
soccer as word is in all dictionaries and everyone uses it. Also tags
aren't meant to be seen, so I don't think anyone will notice it)
2) second one, use sport=football to generalize group of sports and
then specify sport=american_football or sport=association_football

Or there could be third way - just propose sport=association_football
as alias of sport=soccer and use it from now on. I think this would be
best way to deal with it.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 Peteris Krisjanis :
> Or there could be third way - just propose sport=association_football
> as alias of sport=soccer and use it from now on. I think this would be
> best way to deal with it.


or maybe all three versions and some other versions as well that
weren't thought of right now. Why should using our data be easy?

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Pieren]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:

>
> Or there could be third way - just propose sport=association_football
> as alias of sport=soccer and use it from now on. I think this would be
> best way to deal with it.
>
>
No, use the official name 'association_football' as the official tag and
'soccer' as alias.

Pieren
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 20:20, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> or maybe all three versions and some other versions as well that
> weren't thought of right now. Why should using our data be easy?

highway=path already gave alias tagging a precedent, so there is no
reason you can't have 2 tags that mean the same thing...

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 John Smith :
> On 28 June 2010 20:20, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> or maybe all three versions and some other versions as well that
>> weren't thought of right now. Why should using our data be easy?
>
> highway=path already gave alias tagging a precedent, so there is no
> reason you can't have 2 tags that mean the same thing...


I know, but the more aliases we are introducing, the more our data
gets inconsistent / complex to analyse. Should we encourage aliases
for every tag we are using? IMHO no.

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/6/28 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :
> 2010/6/28 John Smith :
>> On 28 June 2010 20:20, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>>> or maybe all three versions and some other versions as well that
>>> weren't thought of right now. Why should using our data be easy?
>>
>> highway=path already gave alias tagging a precedent, so there is no
>> reason you can't have 2 tags that mean the same thing...
>
>
> I know, but the more aliases we are introducing, the more our data
> gets inconsistent / complex to analyse. Should we encourage aliases
> for every tag we are using? IMHO no.
>

Martin, I see alias tags as way to phase out old tag and replace it
with new one.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 20:25, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> I know, but the more aliases we are introducing, the more our data
> gets inconsistent / complex to analyse. Should we encourage aliases
> for every tag we are using? IMHO no.

While it seems mostly pointless in this situation, I'm guessing
aliases in some cases may prevent edit wars over some
cultural/regional sensitive issues.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 Peteris Krisjanis :
> Martin, I see alias tags as way to phase out old tag and replace it
> with new one.


I'd love this to work out but unfortunately in the past this never
worked and resulted always in more confusion than before because new
tags never managed to completely replace old ones. Especially on a
widely used basis like for soccer it is obvious that we will never
(according to previous experience) be able to remove one of the tags
completely after introduction.

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 28/06/2010 10:42, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer a écrit :

2010/6/28 Jason Cunningham:
   

Yes, the wiki needs to be changed to tell people not to use the insulting
word 'soccer', especially as we try to use British English to stop tags
getting confusing.
 


-1, no the wiki is documenting the actual usage of tags, it is not an
authority to change the common usage of tags, but to document it. As
you can see by numbers "soccer" is outreaching "football" by factor
12. Changing the wiki would actually be an insult against the users
that map how the consensus is (was?).

cheers,
Martin
   

The wiki is documenting the use of the JOSM presets.

If the presets gave "football_association", the number of 
"football_association" would have been far above from "soccer", 
"football"...


The discussion is finaly : what to put in the JOSM preset.

I just drew a square. I have selected "Pré-réglages > Sports > Sports de 
balle > football" and the tag I hhave got is "sport=soccer"


I have drawn an other square. I have selected "Pré-réglages > Sports > 
Sports de balle > footlball américain". And I have got the tag 
"sport=football"


So the actual usage is highly the result of the way the JOSM presets are 
done. Is it an authority to decide the presets in JOSM ?

--
FrViPofm

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ? - OSM ambiguity

[Simone Saviolo]

2010/6/28 John Smith :
> On 28 June 2010 18:56, Gianfranco Gliozzo  
> wrote:
>> abandon point 2 and decide a standard either british or american english or
>> a OSM lingo, but I do not like this.
>
> The problem is people are assuming key/values are supposed to be in
> any language, when they're actually for computers to do something
> useful with.
>
> I'm kidding, but we could be using numbers and then defining what
> those numbers mean in various language files to fix this problem.

+1. In a sense, Gianfranco is right: I should be able to edit OSM in
my language. Of course, this can't happen if I set the tags by hand,
but there should be higher-level editors that support localization. I
myself have added a few fields where "calcio" is played; I used JOSM
to do that, and the menu just had a "Campo da calcio" element in it.
en_US users of JOSM should see "soccer field", and en_UK ones should
see "football field". Easy, if tools were more widely used.

Simone

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Richard Mann]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:56 AM, John Smith  wrote:
> On 28 June 2010 19:34, Richard Mann
>  wrote:
>> "football" for American Football, since the most likely meaning if
>> someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is
>> that they mean Association Football.
>
> I disagree, if you said sport=football to people in Australia it
> literally means at least 4 different sports depending on their
> cultural/regional backgrounds, tag:sport=football should point to a
> page that shows all the various sports people refer to as football.
>

So clearly, taggers in Australia aren't likely to use sport=football
since they'll know it's ambiguous, and renderers in Australia will use
a suitably ambiguous icon.

This is all getting a bit out of hand.

1) JOSM should use sport=american_football, not the "do not use" sport=football
2) I'll add sport=american_football to the wiki. I don't think it
needs a proposal or vote, frankly, but if anyone cares to go through
that loop, feel free to revert my edit and set it up.

Richard

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 21:31, Richard Mann
 wrote:
> 2) I'll add sport=american_football to the wiki. I don't think it
> needs a proposal or vote, frankly, but if anyone cares to go through
> that loop, feel free to revert my edit and set it up.

Next one to fix is sport=rugby :)

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

> 1) JOSM should use sport=american_football, not the "do not use" 
> sport=football
> 2) I'll add sport=american_football to the wiki. I don't think it
> needs a proposal or vote, frankly, but if anyone cares to go through
> that loop, feel free to revert my edit and set it up.

Well, I think no one oppose this. Maybe we can collect list of other
football wariants so list would be complete and therefore valid.

To change it in JOSM, you need to write bug report in Trac with link
to this thread and clear explanation why you think it should be done
so.

Also notice that Cloudmade Mapzen also have POI support, so notifying
them would be good as well.

Cheers,
Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[fly]

Am 28.06.2010 13:31, schrieb Richard Mann:
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:56 AM, John Smith  
> wrote:
>> On 28 June 2010 19:34, Richard Mann
>>  wrote:
>>> "football" for American Football, since the most likely meaning if
>>> someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is
>>> that they mean Association Football.
>>
>> I disagree, if you said sport=football to people in Australia it
>> literally means at least 4 different sports depending on their
>> cultural/regional backgrounds, tag:sport=football should point to a
>> page that shows all the various sports people refer to as football.
>>
> 
> So clearly, taggers in Australia aren't likely to use sport=football
> since they'll know it's ambiguous, and renderers in Australia will use
> a suitably ambiguous icon.
> 
> This is all getting a bit out of hand.
> 
> 1) JOSM should use sport=american_football, not the "do not use" 
> sport=football
> 2) I'll add sport=american_football to the wiki. I don't think it
> needs a proposal or vote, frankly, but if anyone cares to go through
> that loop, feel free to revert my edit and set it up.

If we have adjusted the wiki and the presets we could have run a bot to add a
FIXME-tag to all unspecifical objects to get the local mappers informed about
the problem and the changes.

cheers colliar

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 28 June 2010 21:41, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:
> Well, I think no one oppose this. Maybe we can collect list of other
> football wariants so list would be complete and therefore valid.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Football

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] sport=rugby

[John Smith]

Currently the neither the sport wiki page nor the sport=rugby wiki
page define what sport=rugby actually is, and I can't find anything
for 'union' or 'league' so I don't think this has been documented
properly.

While I assume the current tag is for rugby union, and one solution to
this might be to sub-tag sport=rugby, rugby=union/league but this
seems a bit hackish to me and I think we should do things properly and
have sport=rugby_union/rugby_league

Anyone else think of a suitable solution for this?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/28 Vincent Pottier :
> The discussion is finaly : what to put in the JOSM preset.
>
> I just drew a square. I have selected "Pré-réglages > Sports > Sports de
> balle > football" and the tag I hhave got is "sport=soccer"
>
> I have drawn an other square. I have selected "Pré-réglages > Sports >
> Sports de balle > footlball américain". And I have got the tag
> "sport=football"
>
> So the actual usage is highly the result of the way the JOSM presets are
> done. Is it an authority to decide the presets in JOSM ?


no, AFAIK there isn't. The problem you are describing is dependant on
the French translation. I use JOSM in English because I think it is
horrible to click on German (or other language) presets to set English
tags. I suggest to maintain control over the tagging process to use
JOSM in English (or probably offer the user a possibility to have the
presets in English and the rest of the programm in your native
language if you wish this).

cheers,
Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/6/28 John Smith :
> On 28 June 2010 21:41, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:
>> Well, I think no one oppose this. Maybe we can collect list of other
>> football wariants so list would be complete and therefore valid.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Football

Nice, thanks.

Peter.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] 'name' variation tags standardisation

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Cartinus  wrote:

> On Saturday 26 June 2010 06:18:08 Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> > name:alt:de is the German translation of the alternate name
> > name:de:alt is an alternate German name
>
> You really expect that people can keep something like that straight?
>

It's somewhat logical. an element to the right of a colon qualifies
everything to the left. additional right elements makes further
qualifications.

name -> name
name:alt -> alternate name
name:alt:de -> German of the alternate name

name -> name
name:de -> German name
name:de:alt -> an alternate German name

And if people can't keep this straight, there's always the wiki. ;-)

I actually like the idea of converting alt_name to name:alt or
name:alternate. It makes it possible to distinguish an alternate German name
from a German translation of an alternate name if ever people want to tag
that. We can't do this distinction at all with alt_name.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sport=rugby

[Jason Cunningham]

I don't think there is an easy solution, and I think we should just go back
and do it properly as you suggested.
I guess this means an edit to the wiki football page and creating a
ruby_union and rugby_league page

Jason


On 28 June 2010 13:11, John Smith  wrote:

> Currently the neither the sport wiki page nor the sport=rugby wiki
> page define what sport=rugby actually is, and I can't find anything
> for 'union' or 'league' so I don't think this has been documented
> properly.
>
> While I assume the current tag is for rugby union, and one solution to
> this might be to sub-tag sport=rugby, rugby=union/league but this
> seems a bit hackish to me and I think we should do things properly and
> have sport=rugby_union/rugby_league
>
> Anyone else think of a suitable solution for this?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Jason Cunningham]

Well done, and I'll try and add something to it.

jason

On 28 June 2010 13:07, John Smith  wrote:

> On 28 June 2010 21:41, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:
> > Well, I think no one oppose this. Maybe we can collect list of other
> > football wariants so list would be complete and therefore valid.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Football
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Steve Doerr]

"pavithran"  wrote in 
message news:aanlktil1pa646nl5-5b3qefo00wzg1w8wiyxinfwi...@mail.gmail.com...



Some of the IRC discussion I had said that its 'ambiguous' though I
don't agree to the ambiguous property because even americans play for
FIFA where the F means Football


Spurious argument: the A also stands for 'Association'. In other words, the 
sport is described in FIFA's name as 'football association', i.e. (in 
English) 'association football'.


For myself, as a Brit, I have no objection to 'soccer', which was sometimes 
used for 'football' in my youth, and which now seems to be disparaged purely 
because it's perceived as American usage. But I do object to the equation of 
'football' with American football.


How about hierarchical tagging? E.g.:

sport=football
football=american|association|australian_rules|rugby_league|rugby_union

or even

sport=football
football=rugby
rugby=union|league

!

--
Steve 




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Pieren]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Steve Doerr
wrote:

> Spurious argument: the A also stands for 'Association'. In other words, the
> sport is described in FIFA's name as 'football association', i.e. (in
> English) 'association football'.
>
>
Are you sure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Steve Doerr]

"Pieren"  wrote in message 
news:aanlktik_jws7cgyh5h5zcrci-br8ylyma1dsaq6jz...@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Steve Doerr 
 wrote:


> Spurious argument: the A also stands for 'Association'. In other words, 
> the sport is described in FIFA's name as 'football association', i.e.

> (in English) 'association football'.





Are you sure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football


Fairly certain. To quote from the second article:

'Football is governed internationally by the Fédération Internationale de 
Football Association (International Federation of Association Football), 
commonly known by the acronym FIFA.'


See also: 'On distingue le football association du football rugby où l'usage 
des mains est autorisé (Ac. 1932).' 
()


--
Steve 




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[Cartinus]

On Monday 28 June 2010 03:43:28 John Smith wrote:
> emergency=siren ?

Anybody else noticed that:

is already in use as a vehicle type for access restrictions?

So emergency=siren on a node means that only emergency vehicles with a working 
siren may pass that barrier ;)


-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[John Smith]

On 29 June 2010 05:22, Cartinus  wrote:
> So emergency=siren on a node means that only emergency vehicles with a working
> siren may pass that barrier ;)

only when access=emergency is tagged...

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Stephen Hope]

On 28 June 2010 20:02, Jason Cunningham  wrote:
> The English rich decided they didnt like using the long 'association
> football', and were understandably unhappy about the working class stealing
> the term 'football' for the working class game. So the rich English came up
> with the term soccer.

Um, I know the history.  It was a soccer player who came up with
soccer, not an opponent. It may have taken on different associations
later, though.  I don't live in the UK, so I don't know the popular
feeling there.  Outside of the UK, however, the biggest problem with
soccer is some people don't know what it means, and I'm afraid
assocation_football would be even worse (though I could be wrong)

I agree with your other point, though.  I don't think any sport should
use just football - it's way to confusing.  Or, alternatively, all of
them should.

Sport = football, football =
rugby_union/rugby_league/gaelic/american(gridiron?)/canadian/aussie_rules/soccer
(or association)


Stephen

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[John Smith]

On 29 June 2010 08:10, Stephen Hope  wrote:
> american(gridiron?)

It's not smart to swap one ambiguous term for another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridiron_football

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Jason Cunningham]

Gridiron? I didn't know the there were so many versions of football in North
America

All this discussion of football by OSM'rs made me think of the following
scene from the IT Crowd
http://youtu.be/f27IqVo5-Oc

Jason

On 28 June 2010 23:17, John Smith  wrote:

> On 29 June 2010 08:10, Stephen Hope  wrote:
> > american(gridiron?)
>
> It's not smart to swap one ambiguous term for another:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridiron_football
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Tsunami warning siren?

[Liz]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Cartinus wrote:
> On Monday 28 June 2010 03:43:28 John Smith wrote:
> > emergency=siren ?
> 
> Anybody else noticed that:
> 
> is already in use as a vehicle type for access restrictions?
> 
> So emergency=siren on a node means that only emergency vehicles with a
> working  siren may pass that barrier ;)
or heading to a hospital with an emergency department?
same wiki page

or should the siren be under emergency_service
where emergency_service=civil_defence_organisation (a very old term to be sure 
its out of use)
civil_defence_organisation=siren


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/28/10 6:47 PM, John Smith wrote:

On 29 June 2010 08:36, Jason Cunningham  wrote:
   

Gridiron? I didn't know the there were so many versions of football in North
America
 

This shouldn't be surprising since 4 codes of "football" in Australia
came from the UK/Ireland, Soccer, Rugby League/Union and Touch
Football was derived from Rugby League, and a 5th (Aussie Rules) most
likely has some kind of Irish roots...
   
as a practical matter (mapping football fields), there are only two 
relevant ones
in the North America: outdoor fields of 100 yards in length (US college 
& pro

games, outdoors), and outdoor fields of 110 yards in length (Canadian). and
i see no compelling reason why we really need to distinguish between the 
two.
in reviewing the 9/8/6 man football pages, i don't see much need to 
distinguish
those either. maybe length/width tags indicating the size of the field, 
but no
more than that. some (many?) of these fields get used for both north 
american

football and soccer (no insult to UK football fans intended.)

thinking on it, the potential maxlength and maxwidth values are probably
interesting, as they indicate what games might be played on the surface.
if it's big enough for both american football and soccer, then the only real
differences are the lines on the field and nature of the goal.

the arena variants are all played in large indoor multipurpose arenas, and
thus probably don't deserve to be specifically tagged. the floor used for
Arena football one night may be used for basketball, hockey, the circus,
and ice show or a rock show on another night.

the other variants, touch, flag, etc., are all pickup games that can get
played on any grassy field. no tagging here.

richard




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Liz]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Richard Welty wrote:

> as a practical matter (mapping football fields), there are only two
> relevant ones
> in the North America: outdoor fields of 100 yards in length (US college
> & pro
> games, outdoors), and outdoor fields of 110 yards in length (Canadian). and
> i see no compelling reason why we really need to distinguish between the
> two.
> in reviewing the 9/8/6 man football pages, i don't see much need to
> distinguish
> those either. maybe length/width tags indicating the size of the field,
> but no
> more than that. some (many?) of these fields get used for both north
> american
> football and soccer (no insult to UK football fans intended.)
> 
> thinking on it, the potential maxlength and maxwidth values are probably
> interesting, as they indicate what games might be played on the surface.
> if it's big enough for both american football and soccer, then the only
> real differences are the lines on the field and nature of the goal.
> 
> the arena variants are all played in large indoor multipurpose arenas, and
> thus probably don't deserve to be specifically tagged. the floor used for
> Arena football one night may be used for basketball, hockey, the circus,
> and ice show or a rock show on another night.
> 
> the other variants, touch, flag, etc., are all pickup games that can get
> played on any grassy field. no tagging here.
> 
> richard
> 

you are describing problems with the tagging system, in that I can't mark the 
area as multiuse eg australian rules in winter and cricket in summer 
that combination is actually very common in Australia

In my town
however touch is played on a particular ground, shared time wise in winter 
with hockey.
Junior soccer has its own ground
Senior soccer has its own grounds
Rugby Union has its own ground
Rugby League has some grounds of its own, and some shared (Saturday one sport, 
Sunday the other)
and so on

I don't have a problem with marking what sports are played where. I don't have 
a complaint about being accurate with tagging, but sometimes I have to prefer 
one use of an area over another, because we cannot parallel tag with this API.

Considering the use for the data
If I travel to Town X and use my Garmin machine with OSM map, can I find the 
cricket oval in time for the match?
Will the search allow me to identify the correct destination, or will I have a 
choice of places which I have to check to see the correct game being played?






___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/28/10 7:46 PM, Liz wrote:


I don't have a problem with marking what sports are played where. I don't have
a complaint about being accurate with tagging, but sometimes I have to prefer
one use of an area over another, because we cannot parallel tag with this API.

Considering the use for the data
If I travel to Town X and use my Garmin machine with OSM map, can I find the
cricket oval in time for the match?
Will the search allow me to identify the correct destination, or will I have a
choice of places which I have to check to see the correct game being played?
   
in my experience, most fields (or complexes of fields) have names, and 
directions
to a particular field usually invoke the name. so we should definitely 
be providing

names for fields/arenas that have them.

richard


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging