Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[Pierre Alexandre Tremblay]

I think what people mean when legislation measuring at 100 dB-A is an oxymoron. 
dBA was meant to mimic the equal-loudness curve at low level of listening 
(around 40 dB spl @ 1k) and is absolutely not representative of the relatively 
linear curve around 100 dB SPL @1k.

The wikipedia articles on psychoacoustics are quite good. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

 
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Dave Malham]

This seems to have more info about their approach
http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/sound/mtb.html.

The same guys published papers in JAES and at various AES conventions in
the mid noughties but as I gave my JAES collection to the Uni's library
when I retired I can't check them out without going into the library

   Dave


On 22 April 2015 at 21:14, Eric Benjamin  wrote:

> NEOH seems to be quite similar to the "Rondo" from Dysonics:
> http://dysonics.com/
>
> The Rondo is a small device that can be attached to any headphone and
> provides head tracking. The rest of the product is a software player
> (RAPPR) that applies the head tracking info and communicates to Rondo via
> Bluetooth. So far as I know, its MacOS only.
> Dysonics also has a microphone array http://dysonics.com/our-technology/
>
> I haven't yet heard either of these products, but I intend to!
>
>
>
>  On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 10:13 AM, "mgra...@mstvp.com" <
> mgra...@mstvp.com> wrote:
>
>
>  - Original Message -  Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound
> Labs Neoh headphones
> From: "Stefan Schreiber" 
> Date: 4/22/15 12:05 pm
> To: "Surround Sound discussion group" 
>
> Stefan Schreiber wrote:
>
> Ok, they could be a bit clearer. They could refer to anything specific
>  "above" 5.1/7.1, what they avoided. They could maybe have mentioned
>  Ambisonics, but most people never heard about.
>
>  Therefore "3D audio formats" and "immersive".
>
>  They could connect the headphones to a (binaural...) Mpeg-H 3DA decoder,
>  but same story here: The potential customers probably never have heard
>  of "Mpeg 3DA". The music industry or what remains doesn't know a lot if
>  anything, etc.
>
>  In fact: 3D Sound Labs should license (or obtain) a few real 3D audio
>  recordings, for demonstrational purposes. (We are getting into marketing
>  related questions.)
>
>  Best,
>
>  Stefan
>
>  P.S.: Which gives some urgency to the question how to improve Ambisonics
>  decoders, and especially binaural Ambisonics decoders. You know that I
>  have said this again and again. Don't want to complain too much "in
>  public", even if... ;-)
>
>  P.S. 2: "You have been living in a flat dream-world, Neoh..." :-D
>
>
>
>  What really irks me are the binaural conference services, like
> BT+Dolby Voice or Voxeet. They pitch their service as being 3D audio, but
> they lack any concept of the vertical dimension. When I call them on that
> matter I get accused of being too fussy.
>
> In reality, the "3D" aspect of their marketing is really just something
> sweet to attract large enterprise or VC flies. 
>
> Michael Graves
>  mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
>  c(713) 201-1262
>  sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
>  skype mjgraves
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range

[Richard Lee]

There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to below 
20Hz.

It is a MUSICAL one.

Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ.  At the end of the 
service, the organist will play something to show off while everyone is 
leaving.  You can walk around and listen at various positions without 
causing offense.

On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure in the 
head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience is 'trouser 
flapping'   Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral space

A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant 
'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'.

You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi 
system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects of 
an organ performance.  This isn't about LF 'localisation'.  It's about 
pleasant musical sounds.

If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, dinosaur 
footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality Sub" is 
sufficient.  You can also achieve the same effect by having someone stand 
behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate moment.
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Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range

[Dave Malham]

[?]

   Dave
(In case anyone hasn't had their coffee yet, that's a comment on the last
paragraph)

On 23 April 2015 at 16:46, Richard Lee  wrote:

> There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to below
> 20Hz.
>
> It is a MUSICAL one.
>
> Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ.  At the end of the
> service, the organist will play something to show off while everyone is
> leaving.  You can walk around and listen at various positions without
> causing offense.
>
> On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure in the
> head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience is 'trouser
> flapping'   Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral space
>
> A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant
> 'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'.
>
> You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi
> system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects of
> an organ performance.  This isn't about LF 'localisation'.  It's about
> pleasant musical sounds.
>
> If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, dinosaur
> footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality Sub" is
> sufficient.  You can also achieve the same effect by having someone stand
> behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate moment.
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 81, Issue 15

[Charles Verron]

Tu as vu? Ca parle de 3dsl sur surrsound.
Le 22 avr. 2015 23:52,  a écrit :

> Send Sursound mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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> it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sirsound-list digest…" the
> subject should match the post you are replying to.
>
> Also, please EDIT the quoted post so that it is not the entire digest, but
> just the post you are replying to - this will keep the archive useful and
> not polluted with extraneous posts.
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones (Dave Malham)
>2. Re: 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones (Stefan Schreiber)
>3. Infra sound & Sub bass. (jon burton)
>4. Re: 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones (Stefan Schreiber)
>5. Re: 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones (mgra...@mstvp.com)
>6. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (J?rn Nettingsmeier)
>7. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Peter Lennox)
>8. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (jon burton)
>9. Re: 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones (Eric Benjamin)
>   10. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Steven Boardman)
>   11. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (jon burton)
>   12. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Peter Lennox)
>   13. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Fons Adriaensen)
>   14. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Steven Boardman)
>   15. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (J?rn Nettingsmeier)
>   16. Re: Infra sound & Sub bass. (Jonathan Burton)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:20:59 +0100
> From: Dave Malham 
> To: Eero Aro ,  Surround Sound discussion group
> 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones
> Message-ID:
>  z_3-zwj0bqn4nittyd+wp_w8b2qyto...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Yep, interesting indeed - but they don't once mention the height dimension,
> always talking about 360 degrees which implies planar only. Is this, I
> wonder, just an accidental omission or is the system really limited this
> way? Seems unlikely given the 9 axes motion/position sensor they have,
> but.
>
>
>Dave
>
>
> On 22 April 2015 at 15:41, Eero Aro  wrote:
>
> > Hmm... Interesting:
> >
> > http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/
> > http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique
> >
> > Eero
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
>
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:39:42 +0100
> From: Stefan Schreiber 
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones
> Message-ID: <5537cece.5060...@mail.telepac.pt>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Dave Malham wrote:
>
> >Yep, interesting indeed - but they don't once mention the height
> dimension,
> >always talking about 360 degrees which implies planar only. Is this, I
> >wonder, just an accidental omission or is the system really limited this
> >way? Seems unlikely given the 9 axes motion/position sensor they have,
> >but.
> >
> >
> >   Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
> ?
>
> > What is 3D sound
> >
> > What we call 3D sound is the real life?s sound. With Neoh headphones,
> > we have ability to reproduce a sound that will appear to come from
> > anywhere we want it to come from. We create a full artificial
> > environment (360?) with sound sources you will perceive as coming from
> > any distance or direction.
> >
>
> > Some new 3D audio formats are coming up, with even more virtual sound
> > sources and a large number of speakers to reproduce them. Get ready !
> > Neoh breaks the barrier of having a limited amount of sound source.:
> > You will be completely immersed in the sound.
>
> Source:
> http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique
>
> It is up to you o

Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[Dave Malham]

ccount or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
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> >
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu <mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu>
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound <
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range

[Jonathan Burton]

My interest is as yours musical. Spectragraphs of frequency show
significant energy at 20Hz and below in most forms of music. As soon as
Percussion is introduced the level becomes significant.
Mono reproduction of sub has many practical benefits in that it reduces the
amount of phase cancellation that occurs with multiple speakers which in my
profession is a major concern.
It would be great to work with more surround sound/ambisonic material but
with large audience this becomes impractical.
Thanks for the reply though.
Jon

On Thursday, April 23, 2015, Richard Lee  wrote:

> There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to below
> 20Hz.
>
> It is a MUSICAL one.
>
> Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ.  At the end of the
> service, the organist will play something to show off while everyone is
> leaving.  You can walk around and listen at various positions without
> causing offense.
>
> On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure in the
> head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience is 'trouser
> flapping'   Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral space
>
> A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant
> 'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'.
>
> You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi
> system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects of
> an organ performance.  This isn't about LF 'localisation'.  It's about
> pleasant musical sounds.
>
> If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, dinosaur
> footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality Sub" is
> sufficient.  You can also achieve the same effect by having someone stand
> behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate moment.
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu 
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Xavier Bonjour]

Somme clarifications on the discussion below:

1. It is indeed possible we are not very clear in our web communication.
The main reason for that is that we try to address the average consumer
and we found out that it is very difficult to explain the various abstract
concepts of ambisonic, binaural, 3Dsound ...to the general public. So far,
the term  "360°" is what seems to best convey the notion of "3D Sound",
even if we all know that 360° represents a "2D" dimension in our
scientific minds ;-). We are opened to suggestion for other option 
2. Our solution does elevation:  we can virtualize multiple sources with
or without advanced reverberation and out tracker does pitch, roll and
yaw.
3. Regarding the processing of B-format, we can actually process HOA
content (In our current iOS implementation, we have implemented HOA
processing up to 4th order - we can do more if needed).

By the way, for commercial demo purposes, we are interested to get high
quality HOA content. (I am especially interested by "Electro Pop" content
...). If you have some, do not hesitate to contact us.

Best


Xavier Bonjour
Co-founder & CEO
3D Sound Labs

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan
Schreiber
Sent: mercredi 22 avril 2015 19:05
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

Stefan Schreiber wrote:

> Dave Malham wrote:
>
>> Yep, interesting indeed - but they don't once mention the height
>> dimension, always talking about 360 degrees which implies planar
>> only. Is this, I wonder, just an accidental omission or is the system
>> really limited this way? Seems unlikely given the 9 axes
>> motion/position sensor they have, but.
>>
>>
>>   Dave
>>
>>
>>
>
> ?
>
>> What is 3D sound
>>
>> What we call 3D sound is the real life’s sound. With Neoh headphones,
>> we have ability to reproduce a sound that will appear to come from
>> anywhere we want it to come from. We create a full artificial
>> environment (360°) with sound sources you will perceive as coming
>> from any distance or direction.
>>
>
>> Some new 3D audio formats are coming up, with even more virtual sound
>> sources and a large number of speakers to reproduce them. Get ready !
>> Neoh breaks the barrier of having a limited amount of sound source.:
>> You will be completely immersed in the sound.
>
>
> Source:
> http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique


Ok, they could be a bit clearer. They could refer to anything specific
"above" 5.1/7.1, what they avoided. They could maybe have mentioned
Ambisonics, but most people never heard about.

Therefore "3D audio formats" and "immersive".

They could connect the headphones to a (binaural...) Mpeg-H 3DA decoder,
but same story here: The potential customers probably never have heard of
"Mpeg 3DA". The music industry or what remains doesn't know a lot if
anything, etc.

In fact: 3D Sound Labs should license (or obtain) a few real 3D audio
recordings, for demonstrational purposes. (We are getting into marketing
related questions.)

Best,

Stefan

P.S.: Which gives some urgency to the question how to improve Ambisonics
decoders, and especially binaural Ambisonics decoders. You know that I
have said this again and again. Don't want to complain too much "in
public", even if... ;-)

P.S. 2: "You have been living in a flat dream-world, Neoh..."   :-D

--
-

>
> It is up to you or anybody to publish a wonderful (head-tracking) B
> format ---> binaural decoder... In fact, there should be a couple of
> people on this list who already have done this... :-)
>
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>> On 22 April 2015 at 15:41, Eero Aro  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hmm... Interesting:
>>>
>>> http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/
>>> http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique
>>>
>>> Eero
>>>
>>
>
> ___
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
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>

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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Michael Chapman]

> Somme clarifications on the discussion below:
>
> 1. It is indeed possible we are not very clear in our web communication.
> The main reason for that is that we try to address the average consumer
> and we found out that it is very difficult to explain the various abstract
> concepts of ambisonic, binaural, 3Dsound ...to the general public. So far,
> the term  "360°" is what seems to best convey the notion of "3D Sound",
> even if we all know that 360° represents a "2D" dimension in our
> scientific minds ;-). We are opened to suggestion for other option 

12.6 steradians, of course 

Michael

(a ",-)>" is not, i hope, needed?)


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Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range

[Peter Lennox]

But the phase cancellation is only a problem if, in fact, you're playing 
multichannel mono - if you're (spatially) decoding to your array, the problem 
doesn't exist (see Bill Martens "The Impact of Decorrelated Low-Frequency 
Reproduction on Auditory Spatial Imagery: Are Two Subwoofers Better Than One? 
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8048 )

Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan 
Burton
Sent: 23 April 2015 09:02
To: rica...@justnet.com.au; Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency 
range

My interest is as yours musical. Spectragraphs of frequency show significant 
energy at 20Hz and below in most forms of music. As soon as Percussion is 
introduced the level becomes significant.
Mono reproduction of sub has many practical benefits in that it reduces the 
amount of phase cancellation that occurs with multiple speakers which in my 
profession is a major concern.
It would be great to work with more surround sound/ambisonic material but with 
large audience this becomes impractical.
Thanks for the reply though.
Jon

On Thursday, April 23, 2015, Richard Lee  wrote:

> There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to 
> below 20Hz.
>
> It is a MUSICAL one.
>
> Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ.  At the end of 
> the service, the organist will play something to show off while 
> everyone is leaving.  You can walk around and listen at various 
> positions without causing offense.
>
> On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure 
> in the head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience 
> is 'trouser flapping'   Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral 
> space
>
> A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant 
> 'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'.
>
> You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi 
> system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects 
> of an organ performance.  This isn't about LF 'localisation'.  It's 
> about pleasant musical sounds.
>
> If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, 
> dinosaur footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality 
> Sub" is sufficient.  You can also achieve the same effect by having 
> someone stand behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate 
> moment.
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu 
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe 
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[Peter Lennox]

Tuning and sensitivity of the human vestibular system to low-frequency 
vibration.

Neil P McAngus Todd,  Sally M Rosengren James G Colebatch
"...These results extend our knowledge of vibration-sensitivity of vestibular 
afferents but also are remarkable as they indicate that the seismic sensitivity 
of the human vestibular system exceeds that of the cochlea for low-frequencies. 
"
Tuning and sensitivity of the human vestibular system to low-frequency 
vibration. - ResearchGate. Available from: 
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/23174127_Tuning_and_sensitivity_of_the_human_vestibular_system_to_low-frequency_vibration
  

and: Todd and Cody:
"In the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America1, Neil McAngus Todd and 
Frederick Cody of the University of Manchester suggest that addiction to 
ultra-loud music results from the fact that it quite literally moves its 
listeners But in contrast to industrial noise, Todd and Cody point out, 
much of the signal of loud rock and dance music is at low frequencies-in the 
bass. They wondered whether loud, low frequencies might be doing something 
quite different to the ear than normal sound But exactly why some people 
find acoustic excitation of the vestibular system pleasurable is not yet 
clear." 
From: http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000107/full/news000113-2.html  story on : 
McAngusTodd, N.P. & Cody, F.W. Vestibular responses to loud dance music: A 
physiological basis of the "rock and roll threshold"? JASA 107, 496 - 500 2000.


Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jon burton
Sent: 23 April 2015 05:24
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

Increasing European legislation is pushing concert levels to a maximum of 
100dBA over a 10-15min LEQ. In doors in France the norm is 103 dBA over 10 
mins. Switzerland has a generous 100dBA over 60 minutes. At open air festivals 
the level can be as low as 95dBA or 10 minutes. The days of unrestrained rock 
concerts are pretty much over. At the big Rock festivals such as Download and 
Sonisphere the norm in 98dBA 15 mins. Cheating the levels is very hard and 
requires a different attitude to mixing which is what I am researching. I am 
very interested to hear that other engineers such as Steve Boardman are 
adopting the sub route. I am interested in any of the positives of the route in 
particular mechanosensation, the feeling that sound is loud associated with the 
sensation of air pressure on the skin, in the chest cavity etc. Trying to 
reintroduce the immersive quality of a loud concert with out the harmful sound 
pressure at the frequencies that are most often associated with hearing damage.


Jon Burton
Research Student MSc
University of York.
jgb...@york.ac.uk





> On 22 Apr 2015, at 22:48, Jörn Nettingsmeier  
> wrote:
> 
> On 04/22/2015 10:50 PM, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 08:20:36PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, it's not a secret that most live sound engineers, when faced 
>>> with a 99dB(A) rule, will mix into the A curve, i.e. crank up the 
>>> bass a lot. So there is plenty anecdotal evidence for more bass 
>>> resulting in less weighted sound pressure.
>> 
>> The whole idea of measuring 100dB-ish levels with the A filter is 
>> somehow ... (trying to be gentle) strange...
> 
> yeah, but if you measure db(C) or unweighted and mix accordingly, you _will_ 
> get beaten up by the skull tattoos and leather jackets crowd. so there are 
> health hazards to correct measuring, too. and they are occupational rather 
> than recreational...
> 
> /me uses ear protection :)
> 
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
> 
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT
> 
> http://stackingdwarves.net
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[Steven Boardman]

a of measuring 100dB-ish levels with the A filter is
> >> somehow ... (trying to be gentle) strange...
> >
> > yeah, but if you measure db(C) or unweighted and mix accordingly, you
> _will_ get beaten up by the skull tattoos and leather jackets crowd. so
> there are health hazards to correct measuring, too. and they are
> occupational rather than recreational...
> >
> > /me uses ear protection :)
> >
> > --
> > Jörn Nettingsmeier
> > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
> >
> > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT
> >
> > http://stackingdwarves.net
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range

[Stefan Schreiber]

Jonathan Burton wrote:


My interest is as yours musical. Spectragraphs of frequency show
significant energy at 20Hz and below in most forms of music. As soon as
Percussion is introduced the level becomes significant.
 


Really?

How can this be if there are no fundamentals in this range? (See my list 
of piano keys/frequencies. Some instruments go down to about 30Hz. 
Organs can go even lower, but this is already one of the non-typical 
cases)


Lower frequencies could be the consequence of interference/combination 
tones.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_tone

I doubt that these effects will be that big. Percussion could be another 
exceptional case. So, do we have significant LF noise in some percussion 
spectra? Do other instrument spectra contain some LF noise?


I am really interested to learn about if we can measure these 
frequencies in music and recordings, but I am not exactly convinced yet...


Best,

Stefan


Mono reproduction of sub has many practical benefits in that it reduces the
amount of phase cancellation that occurs with multiple speakers which in my
profession is a major concern.
It would be great to work with more surround sound/ambisonic material but
with large audience this becomes impractical.
Thanks for the reply though.
Jon

On Thursday, April 23, 2015, Richard Lee  wrote:

 


There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to below
20Hz.

It is a MUSICAL one.

Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ.  At the end of the
service, the organist will play something to show off while everyone is
leaving.  You can walk around and listen at various positions without
causing offense.

On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure in the
head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience is 'trouser
flapping'   Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral space

A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant
'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'.

You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi
system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects of
an organ performance.  This isn't about LF 'localisation'.  It's about
pleasant musical sounds.

If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, dinosaur
footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality Sub" is
sufficient.  You can also achieve the same effect by having someone stand
behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate moment.
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Stefan Schreiber]

Xavier Bonjour wrote:


Somme clarifications on the discussion below:

1. It is indeed possible we are not very clear in our web communication.
The main reason for that is that we try to address the average consumer
and we found out that it is very difficult to explain the various abstract
concepts of ambisonic, binaural, 3Dsound ...to the general public. So far,
the term  "360°" is what seems to best convey the notion of "3D Sound",
even if we all know that 360° represents a "2D" dimension in our
scientific minds ;-). We are opened to suggestion for other option 
 



I believe the normal way to describe the "3D" aspect would be to use the 
term "3D audio", in English.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2019287550/neoh-the-first-smart-3d-audio-headphones

You see?   ;-)

"3D sound" doesn't seem to be very common. (Normal expression in Romanic 
languages, though. "Son en 3D" = "3D audio". "Som em 3D" or "Som 3D" we 
say here in Lisbonne/ Lisboa)


Obviously, your Kickstarter presence already uses "3D audio"...

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_audio_effect

In "external links" you can find the expression "3D sound".

This seems to contradict the presented views and translations - but hey, 
this is a relatively new field. (At least for your customers.)


<
To cite Michael C.:
",-)>"
>


Best regards,

Stefan


2. Our solution does elevation:  we can virtualize multiple sources with
or without advanced reverberation and out tracker does pitch, roll and
yaw.
3. Regarding the processing of B-format, we can actually process HOA
content (In our current iOS implementation, we have implemented HOA
processing up to 4th order - we can do more if needed).

By the way, for commercial demo purposes, we are interested to get high
quality HOA content. (I am especially interested by "Electro Pop" content
...). If you have some, do not hesitate to contact us.

Best


Xavier Bonjour
Co-founder & CEO
3D Sound Labs

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan
Schreiber
Sent: mercredi 22 avril 2015 19:05
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

Stefan Schreiber wrote:

 


Dave Malham wrote:

   


Yep, interesting indeed - but they don't once mention the height
dimension, always talking about 360 degrees which implies planar
only. Is this, I wonder, just an accidental omission or is the system
really limited this way? Seems unlikely given the 9 axes
motion/position sensor they have, but.


 Dave



 


?

   


What is 3D sound

What we call 3D sound is the real life’s sound. With Neoh headphones,
we have ability to reproduce a sound that will appear to come from
anywhere we want it to come from. We create a full artificial
environment (360°) with sound sources you will perceive as coming
from any distance or direction.

 


Some new 3D audio formats are coming up, with even more virtual sound
sources and a large number of speakers to reproduce them. Get ready !
Neoh breaks the barrier of having a limited amount of sound source.:
You will be completely immersed in the sound.
 


Source:
http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique
   




Ok, they could be a bit clearer. They could refer to anything specific
"above" 5.1/7.1, what they avoided. They could maybe have mentioned
Ambisonics, but most people never heard about.

Therefore "3D audio formats" and "immersive".

They could connect the headphones to a (binaural...) Mpeg-H 3DA decoder,
but same story here: The potential customers probably never have heard of
"Mpeg 3DA". The music industry or what remains doesn't know a lot if
anything, etc.

In fact: 3D Sound Labs should license (or obtain) a few real 3D audio
recordings, for demonstrational purposes. (We are getting into marketing
related questions.)

Best,

Stefan

P.S.: Which gives some urgency to the question how to improve Ambisonics
decoders, and especially binaural Ambisonics decoders. You know that I
have said this again and again. Don't want to complain too much "in
public", even if... ;-)

P.S. 2: "You have been living in a flat dream-world, Neoh..."   :-D

--
-

 


It is up to you or anybody to publish a wonderful (head-tracking) B
format ---> binaural decoder... In fact, there should be a couple of
people on this list who already have done this... :-)


Best,

Stefan



   


On 22 April 2015 at 15:41, Eero Aro  wrote:



 


Hmm... Interesting:

http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/
http://3dsoundlabs.com/en/how-does-it-work/#psychoacoustique

Eero

   


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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Paul Doornbusch]

Hi Eric,

My RondoMotion arrived today - it’s quite impressive! The software looks a 
little like version one at the moment, but it does indeed work and I’m starting 
to think of uses for it.

Cheers,
Paul


> On 23 Apr 2015, at 6:14 AM, Eric Benjamin  wrote:
> 
> NEOH seems to be quite similar to the "Rondo" from 
> Dysonics:http://dysonics.com/
> 
> The Rondo is a small device that can be attached to any headphone and 
> provides head tracking. The rest of the product is a software player (RAPPR) 
> that applies the head tracking info and communicates to Rondo via Bluetooth. 
> So far as I know, its MacOS only.
> Dysonics also has a microphone array http://dysonics.com/our-technology/
> 
> I haven't yet heard either of these products, but I intend to!
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 10:13 AM, "mgra...@mstvp.com" 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> - Original Message -  Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs 
> Neoh headphones
> From: "Stefan Schreiber" 
> Date: 4/22/15 12:05 pm
> To: "Surround Sound discussion group" 
> 
> Stefan Schreiber wrote:
> 
> Ok, they could be a bit clearer. They could refer to anything specific
> "above" 5.1/7.1, what they avoided. They could maybe have mentioned
> Ambisonics, but most people never heard about.
> 
> Therefore "3D audio formats" and "immersive".
> 
> They could connect the headphones to a (binaural...) Mpeg-H 3DA decoder,
> but same story here: The potential customers probably never have heard
> of "Mpeg 3DA". The music industry or what remains doesn't know a lot if
> anything, etc.
> 
> In fact: 3D Sound Labs should license (or obtain) a few real 3D audio
> recordings, for demonstrational purposes. (We are getting into marketing
> related questions.)
> 
> Best,
> 
> Stefan
> 
> P.S.: Which gives some urgency to the question how to improve Ambisonics
> decoders, and especially binaural Ambisonics decoders. You know that I
> have said this again and again. Don't want to complain too much "in
> public", even if... ;-)
> 
> P.S. 2: "You have been living in a flat dream-world, Neoh..." :-D
> 
> 
> 
> What really irks me are the binaural conference services, like 
> BT+Dolby Voice or Voxeet. They pitch their service as being 3D audio, but 
> they lack any concept of the vertical dimension. When I call them on that 
> matter I get accused of being too fussy.
> 
> In reality, the "3D" aspect of their marketing is really just something sweet 
> to attract large enterprise or VC flies. 
> 
> Michael Graves
> mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
> c(713) 201-1262
> sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> skype mjgraves
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Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[Elizabeth Durand & Bill Houston]

I too doubt that most music has sub 20hz  material except for some organ and 
percussion, electronic music and other recordings utilizing sub-harmonic 
synthesizers. Another obvious source of sub 20hz sound is unwanted 
environmental noise such as HVAC, traffic etc.

Bill Houston
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.

[jon burton]

Legislative bodies almost all use the A weighted scale. This is usually because 
they are usually environmental health departments. The A weighted scale is 
useful as it is a good indication if a noise is annoying (usually at night 
time) which is their prime consideration. It is also available on most meters!. 
Increasingly they are looking at introducing C weighted measurements as noise 
from Air Conditioning  systems/wind farms etc becomes a problem with their  
very low frequency content. One of the issues with local environmental officers 
is the wide range of subjects they need to cover, mainly health related such as 
food preperation. Noise pollution is only a very small part of what they do and 
few would claim to be experts in the field.
Jon Burton
Research Student MSc  
University of York.
jgb...@york.ac.uk





> On 23 Apr 2015, at 08:16, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay  
> wrote:
> 
> I think what people mean when legislation measuring at 100 dB-A is an 
> oxymoron. dBA was meant to mimic the equal-loudness curve at low level of 
> listening (around 40 dB spl @ 1k) and is absolutely not representative of the 
> relatively linear curve around 100 dB SPL @1k.
> 
> The wikipedia articles on psychoacoustics are quite good. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting
> 
> 
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