Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
--On 12 December 2013 01:41 + Stefan Schreiber wrote: > You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now! If you have no fixed reference, how do you cope? Do you add a compass (and have a command to set the direction of front), or do you allow the front to drift back into place when there is no movement? Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
> The first part is overdue (and many thanks to Hector!), the second part is a > nice demonstration. But from a CE perspective, I highly doubt that "normal" > consumers would "glue" (in my terms) their smartphone to their head. of course not ... but the point is that the demonstration is accessible by all with a smartphone, ... and if the demonstration is successful then that can only lead to the development of cheap and small 'clip-on' gyro gysmos (available for $12.99).. that clip on to headsets or ear buds ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). Etienne > This is why I am stunned that no known headphone manufacturer is using any > of all these widely available and really viable motion-tracking/gyroscope > chips, by now. > And: Things could be done in such an easier manner than ever before, by > now: > > http://www.smyth-research.com/technology.html > >> The Realiser system includes a small device atop the headphone headband >> and another small device at the front of the room, which together monitor >> the position of the listener's head every five milliseconds. > > > > (Bayer Headzone is similar and overcomplicated, from a current perspective. > > http://www.beyerdynamic.de/shop/headzone-headphone-surround-system.html > > You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now!) > > You can replace both former solutions with available motion tracking ICs. > 200 Hz is no problem by now. > > (The Oculus Rift people give some specifications. I already wrote about > this, some time ago. ) > > Beside of this, I have written so often about the Wii control, iPhone > sensors, "Glass" motion sensors and Oculus Rift before that I seem entitled > to utter my private opinion. See also my recent posting of the person who > 3D-printed a frame for a smartphone as stereo display system for a "3D > glass". (VR systems need HT and fast visual updates. "We" are all in-favour > of head-tracked 5.1/Ambisonics decoding, so to speak) > > Many thanks to Hector Centeno, anyway. > ( It has become way too obvious that any current developments in audio > technology happen at an incredibly slow pace, compared to probably any other > area. This is probably also partially my own fault, just writing about > possible solutions and not actually doing them, cos I have a full-time job > and life... :-D I also would not blame the music or audiophile > industries, which don't know a lot about such complicated topics like > technology or music... On a more positive note, Hector has written some of > these apps for mobile devices which people (consumers) might actually use > in tough real-world/daily life conditions! This wasn't about the usual > Linux environment for connaisseurs, although < some > other people might > object that these < apps > would even not exist without Linux... Maybe this > was not the topic we should discuss! O:-) ) > > > Best, > > Stefan Schreiber > > > >> If this combination of technology is not the future of ambisonics then >> I dont think anything is! >> >> Can I ask ... what is the latency on the head-tracking? >> >> Etienne >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:25 AM, Hector Centeno wrote: >> >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I just wanted to share with this list information about two Android >>> apps I've been working on and that I will release soon. I made them >>> because I thought it would be great to be able to listen to ambisonic >>> recordings in a portable way without the need of a full size computer. >>> >>> The first app is called AmbiExplorer and it's a first order decoder to >>> stereo, with the option of choosing binaural or virtual microphones. >>> You can peform soundfield rotation and microphone polar patten >>> selection. It will also work with the device's orientation sensors so >>> you could attach your device to headphones and have head-tracked >>> binaural listening. >>> >>> The second app is called TetraFile and it's a port of the offline >>> command line utility part of Fons' TetraProc. I made this so I could >>> connect my portable recorder (in card reader mode) directly to my >>> phone via USB OTG, transfer the A-format files and do a conversion to >>> B-format and listen using AmbiExplorer. It will read your tetrafile >>> calibration files from your phone's storage. >>> >>> More info and a video demo are available here: >>> http://hcenteno.net/software.html >>> >>> Any comments are welcome. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Hector Centeno >>> ___ >>> Sursound mailing list >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- http://etiennedeleflie.net ___ Sursound mai
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
Hi Étienne. etienne deleflie a écrit : > ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to > masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality > spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). > > Etienne HRTF decoding is the problem here. Finding a proper HRTF profile by trying many (over of hundred) is not a solution; realistic binaural reproduction works only when I listen to my own binaural recordings. So, to enjoy "mass produced" ambisonics, I'd need personalized HRTF measurements, a service that is not cheap and non-existent for a majority of "HRTF challenged" people; for us, decoding ambisonics over 4 speakers is a better option, and streaming ambisonics from a phone with blutooth to a classic decoder would work. With ambisonics, there's many solutions. -- Marc ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
two years ago, I acquired a motor cycle helmet with the intention of mounting eight headphones to listen to ambisonics without hrtf. i was going to use it with a 20 dollar dolby 7.1 usb device.I did not go head because I realized I would still need headtracking. by the cell phone does not have to be on top of the head. it can be in a small bag handing at the back of the head, or even one side. it merely needs to move with the head. umashankar > Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:40:03 -0500 > From: m...@hacklava.net > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related > > Hi Étienne. > > etienne deleflie a écrit : > > ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to > > masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality > > spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). > > > > Etienne > > HRTF decoding is the problem here. Finding a proper HRTF profile by > trying many (over of hundred) is not a solution; realistic binaural > reproduction works only when I listen to my own binaural recordings. > So, to enjoy "mass produced" ambisonics, I'd need personalized HRTF > measurements, a service that is not cheap and non-existent for a > majority of "HRTF challenged" people; for us, decoding ambisonics over > 4 speakers is a better option, and streaming ambisonics from a phone > with blutooth to a classic decoder would work. With ambisonics, there's > many solutions. > > -- > Marc > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20131212/b207865a/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
Paul Hodges wrote: --On 12 December 2013 01:41 + Stefan Schreiber wrote: You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now! If you have no fixed reference, how do you cope? GPS, relative GPS? Do you add a compass (and have a command to set the direction of front), or do you allow the front to drift back into place when there is no movement? Gyroscope, accelerometer... Best, Stefan ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
Marc Lavallée wrote: Hi Étienne. etienne deleflie a écrit : ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). Etienne HRTF decoding is the problem here. for us, decoding ambisonics over 4 speakers is a better option, and streaming ambisonics from a phone with blutooth to a classic decoder would work. With ambisonics, there's many solutions. -- Marc For "us" means in this context: A club of enthusiasts and some academics. It is not meant in a despective way or anything related, but this is exactly the problem: Why would we change anything if things already do work, and work in a wonderful and most flexible way anyway? I beg to differe. Maybe people outside any insider group should be enabled to test if some available HRTF sets work for < them >? This is what Hector's programs (or apps) are about. Why would you stream for audio channels from a mobile to a decoder if you can integrate the decoder into the phone? (Come in Hector's apps.) We are talking about a different use anyway. (At home and < mobile >.) Best, Stefan P.S.: I am unaware if people already can change between different HRTF sets/data, but this would be a minor issue. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
umashankar manthravadi wrote: two years ago, I acquired a motor cycle helmet with the intention of mounting eight headphones to listen to ambisonics without hrtf. i was going to use it with a 20 dollar dolby 7.1 usb device.I did not go head because I realized I would still need headtracking. by the cell phone does not have to be on top of the head. it can be in a small bag handing at the back of the head, or even one side. it merely needs to move with the head. umashankar But IF we already talk about this: You could design a small device with the battery, position/HT ICs and the (bluetooth) transmittor. Or: Build this into the headphone, the integrated solution Beyer and Sennheiser are seemingly not able to deliver - as there is supposedly no market, I guess. Whole the Oculus Rift is supposed to cost less than a high end smartphone... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oculus_Rift "Initial prototypes used a Hillcrest Labs 3DoF head tracker that is normally 125 Hz, with a special firmware that John Carmack requested which makes it run at 250 Hz, tracker latency being vital due to the dependency of virtual reality's realism on response time. The latest version includes Oculus' new 1000 Hz Adjacent Reality Tracker that will allow for much lower latency tracking than almost any other tracker. It uses a combination of 3-axis gyros, accelerometers, and magnetometers, which make it capable of absolute (relative to earth) head orientation tracking without drift.[15][22]" Just to answer some questions from before... (I have posted about this way before.) Best, Stefan Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:40:03 -0500 From: m...@hacklava.net To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related Hi Étienne. etienne deleflie a écrit : ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). Etienne HRTF decoding is the problem here. Finding a proper HRTF profile by trying many (over of hundred) is not a solution; realistic binaural reproduction works only when I listen to my own binaural recordings. So, to enjoy "mass produced" ambisonics, I'd need personalized HRTF measurements, a service that is not cheap and non-existent for a majority of "HRTF challenged" people; for us, decoding ambisonics over 4 speakers is a better option, and streaming ambisonics from a phone with blutooth to a classic decoder would work. With ambisonics, there's many solutions. -- Marc ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
On 12/12/2013 12:40, Marc Lavallée wrote: Hi Étienne. etienne deleflie a écrit : ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). Etienne HRTF decoding is the problem here. Finding a proper HRTF profile by trying many (over of hundred) is not a solution; realistic binaural reproduction works only when I listen to my own binaural recordings. So, to enjoy "mass produced" ambisonics, I'd need personalized HRTF measurements, a service that is not cheap and non-existent for a majority of "HRTF challenged" people; for us, decoding ambisonics over 4 speakers is a better option, It is undeniable that listening to FOA over a bunch of speakers will mess up your 'personallised (actual) HRTFs' considerably.. It is debatable whether putting mics in your own ears yields anything very useful. Arguing that HRTFs are like fingerprints misses the fact that the detailed individual patterns of fingerprints have no known function (apart from forensics) You just have to have 'some', for antislip or touch reasons. The analogy might turn out well, after all. and streaming ambisonics from a phone with blutooth to a classic decoder would work. With ambisonics, there's many solutions. -- Marc ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
On 12/12/2013 03:26 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: Paul Hodges wrote: --On 12 December 2013 01:41 + Stefan Schreiber wrote: You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now! If you have no fixed reference, how do you cope? GPS, relative GPS? i doubt it would be precise enough. the subject is not moving, after all. Do you add a compass (and have a command to set the direction of front), or do you allow the front to drift back into place when there is no movement? how good are these built-in compasses? i still have a very dumb smartphone... Gyroscope, accelerometer... but those _will_ accumulate errors. doing dead reckoning with just a gyro and accelerometer requires double integration and is, ahem, prone to difficulties. check out pynchon's "gravity's rainbow" for a novel approach to the problem ;) executive summary: if you are going to do it for less than a few seconds, you will have to choose _very_ big targets. the situation is a bit less dire if all you care for is heading, but you will need a reference every once in a while to re-calibrate your reckoning, or else default to "in the absence of head movement, drift back to due north orientation", like paul seid. which can be irritating and, in the case of "physical" soundscapes, disorienting. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
etienne deleflie wrote: The first part is overdue (and many thanks to Hector!), the second part is a nice demonstration. But from a CE perspective, I highly doubt that "normal" consumers would "glue" (in my terms) their smartphone to their head. of course not ... but the point is that the demonstration is accessible by all with a smartphone, ... and if the demonstration is successful then that can only lead to the development of cheap and small 'clip-on' gyro gysmos (available for $12.99).. that clip on to headsets or ear buds ... and then ambisonics is suddenly available to masses of people, for very cheap, and with a consistent and quality spatial experience (assuming the HRTF decoding can be done right). Etienne I fully agree. (And good headphones are not "that" cheap. If we still talk about Sennheiser and Beyer. But how we both have figured out, it could be an "independent" set which sends position data to a smartphone, and just would use < any > headphone. (For the decoding side, the number of mobile and "fixed" OS systems is quite limited. In the future, some JavaScript/HTML 5 solution might be general enough to do the job on < any > OS.) In this sense, we finally might not need Sennheiser and Beyer. An observation which frankly should build up a certain pressure Best, Stefan P.S.: A small "hint" for all ye lurking headphone developpers/engineers. :-D This is why I am stunned that no known headphone manufacturer is using any of all these widely available and really viable motion-tracking/gyroscope chips, by now. And: Things could be done in such an easier manner than ever before, by now: http://www.smyth-research.com/technology.html The Realiser system includes a small device atop the headphone headband and another small device at the front of the room, which together monitor the position of the listener's head every five milliseconds. (Bayer Headzone is similar and overcomplicated, from a current perspective. http://www.beyerdynamic.de/shop/headzone-headphone-surround-system.html You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now!) You can replace both former solutions with available motion tracking ICs. 200 Hz is no problem by now. (The Oculus Rift people give some specifications. I already wrote about this, some time ago. ) Beside of this, I have written so often about the Wii control, iPhone sensors, "Glass" motion sensors and Oculus Rift before that I seem entitled to utter my private opinion. See also my recent posting of the person who 3D-printed a frame for a smartphone as stereo display system for a "3D glass". (VR systems need HT and fast visual updates. "We" are all in-favour of head-tracked 5.1/Ambisonics decoding, so to speak) Many thanks to Hector Centeno, anyway. ( It has become way too obvious that any current developments in audio technology happen at an incredibly slow pace, compared to probably any other area. This is probably also partially my own fault, just writing about possible solutions and not actually doing them, cos I have a full-time job and life... :-D I also would not blame the music or audiophile industries, which don't know a lot about such complicated topics like technology or music... On a more positive note, Hector has written some of these apps for mobile devices which people (consumers) might actually use in tough real-world/daily life conditions! This wasn't about the usual Linux environment for connaisseurs, although < some > other people might object that these < apps > would even not exist without Linux... Maybe this was not the topic we should discuss! O:-) ) Best, Stefan Schreiber If this combination of technology is not the future of ambisonics then I dont think anything is! Can I ask ... what is the latency on the head-tracking? Etienne On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:25 AM, Hector Centeno wrote: Hello all, I just wanted to share with this list information about two Android apps I've been working on and that I will release soon. I made them because I thought it would be great to be able to listen to ambisonic recordings in a portable way without the need of a full size computer. The first app is called AmbiExplorer and it's a first order decoder to stereo, with the option of choosing binaural or virtual microphones. You can peform soundfield rotation and microphone polar patten selection. It will also work with the device's orientation sensors so you could attach your device to headphones and have head-tracked binaural listening. The second app is called TetraFile and it's a port of the offline command line utility part of Fons' TetraProc. I made this so I could connect my portable recorder (in card reader mode) directly to my phone via USB OTG, transfer the A-format files and do a conversion to B-format and listen using AmbiExplorer. It will read your tetrafile calibration files from your phone's storage. More info and a video demo are available here: ht
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: On 12/12/2013 03:26 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: Paul Hodges wrote: --On 12 December 2013 01:41 + Stefan Schreiber wrote: You won't need any "base station" for HT, by now! If you have no fixed reference, how do you cope? GPS, relative GPS? i doubt it would be precise enough. the subject is not moving, after all. Do you add a compass (and have a command to set the direction of front), or do you allow the front to drift back into place when there is no movement? how good are these built-in compasses? i still have a very dumb smartphone... Gyroscope, accelerometer... but those _will_ accumulate errors. doing dead reckoning with just a gyro and accelerometer requires double integration and is, ahem, prone to difficulties. check out pynchon's "gravity's rainbow" for a novel approach to the problem ;) executive summary: if you are going to do it for less than a few seconds, you will have to choose _very_ big targets. the situation is a bit less dire if all you care for is heading, but you will need a reference every once in a while to re-calibrate your reckoning, or else default to "in the absence of head movement, drift back to due north orientation", like paul seid. which can be irritating and, in the case of "physical" soundscapes, disorienting. The reference is either a measured GPS position, or the earth magnetic field? Executive summary for the AES and Tonmeistertagung 2014: "You don't need an (objectively) exact position." You need a "fixed point", and relative movement to this. This can be done, as in VR or newish cheap gaming devices. Best, Stefan P.S. Archimedes: "Gib' mir einen festen Punkt, und ich werde die Welt aus den Angeln heben." For the English version, I recommend "Google Translation"...:-D P.S. 2: If you are not afraid of the NSA! "die Welt aus den Angeln heben" in any language, this is ... very suspect! (For the Romans, Archimedes was probably more than just a terror "suspect". The rest is history.) P.S. 3: Don't do some automated translation of this citing from German to Arab, BTW! (And don't call your avatar "Muhammad Archimedes" in WoW, even a bigger mishap...) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
Hector Centeno wrote: Hello all, I just wanted to share with this list information about two Android apps I've been working on and that I will release soon. I made them because I thought it would be great to be able to listen to ambisonic recordings in a portable way without the need of a full size computer. The first app is called AmbiExplorer and it's a first order decoder to stereo, with the option of choosing binaural or virtual microphones. You can peform soundfield rotation and microphone polar patten selection. It will also work with the device's orientation sensors so you could attach your device to headphones and have head-tracked binaural listening. The second app is called TetraFile and it's a port of the offline command line utility part of Fons' TetraProc. I made this so I could connect my portable recorder (in card reader mode) directly to my phone via USB OTG, transfer the A-format files and do a conversion to B-format and listen using AmbiExplorer. It will read your tetrafile calibration files from your phone's storage. More info and a video demo are available here: http://hcenteno.net/software.html Any comments are welcome. Best, Hector Centeno Thanks again for your apps, which seem to be a < first > in this area. The first app is called AmbiExplorer and it's a first order decoder to stereo, with the option of choosing binaural or virtual microphones. You can peform soundfield rotation and microphone polar patten selection. It will also work with the device's orientation sensors so you could attach your device to headphones and have head-tracked binaural listening. As you have seen, the latter could become the basis for some real-world product. (A small motion and orientation tracking device, which you could fix to your headphones, glasses or whereever. For the air interface, the best is if somebody sets a first standard for the data format(s). If not, every such device needs its own software on different platforms. This might not be "that" important in the beginning, but maybe later.) Well done! Stefan ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
On 12/12/2013 12:44, umashankar manthravadi wrote: two years ago, I acquired a motor cycle helmet with the intention of mounting eight headphones to listen to ambisonics without hrtf. i was going to use it with a 20 dollar dolby 7.1 usb device. It was not one of your better plans.. :-) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
beg to differ... (paper to follow...) Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of dw [d...@dwareing.plus.com] Sent: 12 December 2013 23:02 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related On 12/12/2013 12:44, umashankar manthravadi wrote: > two years ago, I acquired a motor cycle helmet with the intention of mounting > eight headphones to listen to ambisonics without hrtf. i was going to use it > with a 20 dollar dolby 7.1 usb device. It was not one of your better plans.. :-) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related
On 12/12/2013 23:10, Peter Lennox wrote: beg to differ... (paper to follow...) Dr Peter Lennox I was wondering where my taxes went.. School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of dw [d...@dwareing.plus.com] Sent: 12 December 2013 23:02 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Upcoming Android apps ambisonic related On 12/12/2013 12:44, umashankar manthravadi wrote: two years ago, I acquired a motor cycle helmet with the intention of mounting eight headphones to listen to ambisonics without hrtf. i was going to use it with a 20 dollar dolby 7.1 usb device. It was not one of your better plans.. :-) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
