[RE-wrenches] Lead placment and length on new PV Panels

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I have been designing a large-ish off-grid system over the last few weeks.
This will be our first off-grid system to require MLRSS.  We chose the Tigo
TS4-A-F system.



In order to make certain the Tigo will work with modules that we can get
our hands on, we brought in a few samples to try and connect with the
Tigos.  What we found is that with many of the new PV panels, the leads
connect to the two long sides of the panels and are often too short to
practically route to the frame-mounted Tigos.



This got me to thinking:  Many panels are now configured with leads
connected to the two long sides.  Many new panels are coming out with
shorter leads.  Virtually all new roof-mounted installation will need some
form of MLPE.  These new panels will be ill-suited to connect to those MLPE
devices.



This has to do with the fact that instead of in the old days, when each
panel connected to a neighbor on either side, each panel now connects to a
single device, the MLPE.  The leads must able to reach that MLPE without
being pulled, banjo-string-tight across a void.  If PV leads cannot be
supported, they will end of laying on the roof.  Can we agree that is a bad
thing?



Have any of you consider this situation?  It is kind of complicated and
hard to explain.  I attempted to do so by writing a web page dedicated to
the subject.  I finished the site today but I am not sure it communicates
the dilemma adequately.  You can find it here

.



I would be most grateful if some of you more experienced installers could
look this over and let me know if this problem has come across your radar
and what you are doing about this issue.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches:



I found some on-line pump HP calculators, such as this
 one.  Plugging in 1
gpm of water pumped to 300 feet elevation results in 0.1 HP, not 5.  I have
no idea how Daryl arrived at 5 HP.



Plugging in the 10 gpm we want, the HP required is a little over 1.  I
tried several calculators and worked the formula myself and all approaches
resulted in the same answer.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Wesley Kennedy [mailto:hathaso...@yahoo.com]
*Sent:* Monday, March 28, 2022 9:58 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* William Miller; Darryl Thayer
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7



Hi Darryl,

I’d love to see that math on that.you mind sharing?

-Wes

303-653-3073





On Mar 27, 2022, at 1:27 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Hello, Sorry to be so late but I have been overloaded.  Just a note on
physics of lifting water.  The calculation indicates if you pump 1 gallon
per minute up 300 feet it required a water hp of 5 HP

Use this base number and good pumps are about 70% efficient.  If the flow
rate is not 1 GPM adjust the HP accordingly.  For example, if you want to
pump 10 GPM it requires 50 HP  or if you want to pump 10 Gallons / day it
requires (50HP/ 24h 60min )requiring 0,035 HP..

Again I apologize for delay.



On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Hilton:

A valid point.  However in this region wells often do not recharge as well
as we might like.  In these cases, to meet gallons per day you have to pump
long and slow--more hours per day than the sun will be up.  That means of
course generator or battery storage.

The economics have shifted from when I started installing direct-DC water
pumping.  The money that is being spent today to provide commercial ag water
is beyond what I would have comprehended back then.  This means new
technology--and questions need to be asked, including considering battery
storage.

Thanks for your reply.

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Hilton Dier
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 6:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7

Here’s a lateral take on this. A 500 gallon poly water tank is far cheaper
than the batteries needed to fill it.

Years ago I rigged up a seasonal pump system for a man who had two ponds on
his property. The lower one was well fed by a spring but the upper one
wasn’t.
I used a 200 watt DC piston pump and a couple of modules with a linear
current booster. A couple of breakers but no batteries. It just chugged away
quietly all (moderately sunny) day, filling the upper pond.

Using a positive displacement pump is key for minimizing power requirements.
At 300 feet that’s about 125 psi, which is not out of line for a piston
pump. Fill a big poly tank and pressurize it with a small DC diaphragm pump
if necessary.

Simple, efficient, cheap.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark install

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Ron:



I apologize if I am underestimating your level of skill or experience.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.  However from the extent of the
questions you are asking, it seems like some solar design and vocational
courses might be in order.  Without a solid background, no one should be
designing and installing electrical systems with any voltages greater than
50, AC or DC.



Below is my take on the subject of training.  I apologize if I am on a bit
of a rant, but I feel the subject gets overlooked.



When I started in solar there were no training resources.  As time passed a
few became available:  I took one of Bill Brooks’ early 3 day courses in
Sacramento.  I went to a very bizarre lecture that John Wiles presented.
There was an outfit called High Sun Engineering that had a multi-day
course.



I also went to every inverter manufacturer’s 1-3 day course I could find
including Outback’s factory certification course.  I went to every trade
show I could get to.  I read every manual and I kept the all of the solar
equipment manufacturer’s tech support numbers on speed dial.  All of these
are still valid methods to improve your knowledge.



There are now many good training options.  Community colleges offer
courses.  I never pursued the NABCEP training because there was never a job
I failed to get or complete due to lack of that certification.  I have
reviewed the NABCEP training material and the curriculum seems very
thorough.



The industry is much more complicated now than it was in the mid-80s-- If
back then someone had tried to explain AC coupling to me it would have
blown my mind, as just one example.  Further complicating the
solar-electric industry is the evolution of the NEC, the rigors of
permitting and improved safety protocols that have to be followed.
Training is more important now than ever.



Here is another concept that I think applies to this mini-rant:  Before one
can become a skilled solar electrician one must first become a competent
electrician.  You need to know electrical theory, electrical and building
codes, the hardware, practices and construction in general, particularly
roofing.  To become a solar designer, you have to have expertise in the
above trades and have additional skills in math, spreadsheets, research and
CAD.



Here is an option for those interested in getting started in the solar
electric trade:  Before I got my contractor’s license I worked with a buddy
that was licensed.  I already had a few years as an apprentice and I had
electronics training and experience.  I brought the customers and the
designs.  My pal supervised the work and put his name on the permits.
Eventually he signed for my hours and I got my own license.



The bottom line is: I could not in good conscious coach someone on how to
design any electrical system if I were not confident they were experienced
enough to install the resulting system safely.  The overriding principal is
simple enough: electrical systems, when installed improperly, can kill.



I mean no disrespect…



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ron Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 12, 2022 7:42 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Ron Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark install



Hi Wrenches, trying to wrap my head around a first time Sol-Ark install.
Because the max DC voltage is 500v at 18a  and the PV I’m using is 40v DC
each I will have to create three strings each 480v. What would be the best
choice for a home run wire? I’ve always used smaller strings with micro
inverters, a combiner at the array and a single Teck home run cable but the
string inverter presents a different scenario and it looks like I’ll need
to use three home run cables, one for each string.



Ron Young



earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
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[RE-wrenches] Water well telemetry

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

Can anyone recommend manufacturers of equipment for remote telemetry for Ag
wells?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Radian, Blue Planet and SMA 21 series AC coupled

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We are setting up our first Blue Planet system.  It is AC coupled with an
SMA SB7-21 back-feeding a Radian 8048.We followed all of the
recommended settings when commissioning.



The battery SOC is chronically stuck at 90% as displayed by the Blue Planet
BMU.

I think the problem is the grid sell setting is at 54 VDC.  Blue Planet
likes 55.2.  I’m going to change that setting this afternoon but due to
some mysterious Optics bug, I have to drive to the site to do so.



If anyone has any experience with this kind of setup and can offer any
advice, well I’d be mighty grateful.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Optics will not accept remote programming

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I installed a Radian AC coupled system a few months ago.  We are trying to
dial it in to work with a Blue Planet battery system.



I cannot make any adjustments remotely through Optics.  Once in a while if
I reset the gateway I can change one setting, but rarely does it succeed.
The little wheel turns for a couple of minutes and then I get a failure
dialog box.



I was told to power cycle the Mate.  This did not solve the problem.



Has anyone else experienced this?



Thanks for any input.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics will not accept remote programming

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kienan:

Thanks for your response. All firmware was the latest.

I think I figured it out. I swapped out the Mate3S and the problem appears
to be resolved. The defective Mate was only about 6 months old. No one
knows why or how the Mate3s caused the problem.

Thanks to all who tried to help.

William Miller

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 3:13 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I've seen something similar if there was a firmware mismatch... the mate3s
> had a newer firmware and the inverters had an older firmware. As was stated
> before, make sure that everything has the latest firmware.
>
> Otherwise, I wouldn't know where to go after that.
>
> Cheers,
> Kienan
>
>
> *Maxfield Solar*
> *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* 
> * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) *
> --------------
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of William Miller via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 2:13 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* William Miller 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Optics will not accept remote programming
>
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I installed a Radian AC coupled system a few months ago.  We are trying to
> dial it in to work with a Blue Planet battery system.
>
>
>
> I cannot make any adjustments remotely through Optics.  Once in a while if
> I reset the gateway I can change one setting, but rarely does it succeed.
> The little wheel turns for a couple of minutes and then I get a failure
> dialog box.
>
>
>
> I was told to power cycle the Mate.  This did not solve the problem.
>
>
>
> Has anyone else experienced this?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> --

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] AC Coupled Tesla system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I have two questions about AC coupling Tesla systems:



1.   Are there limits on how much power can be AC coupled through a Tesla
gateway?  Does it depend on the quantity of power-walls connected?

2.   I understand a Tesla system does not have a separate generator input
so if a generator is to be incorporated, a transfer switch is required
upstream of the sole AC input.  If the generator were to start on a sunny
day, would the gateway protect the generator from receiving sell amps from
the AC coupled inverters?



Thanks in advance for any information that you are allowed to share.



Sincerely,



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian question

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:

You need a place to install OCPDs, Negative and other bussing,  shunts , AC
distribution and an FNDC if you want one.

I recommend using all the matching BOS hardware.  In the old days installs
were far less robust or elegant without it. This is not a place to pinch
pennies, in my opinion.

William

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 1:44 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ok, time to break wrenches radio silence over the last week.
>
> My question concerns the Radian battery terminal connections. I don't need
> nor want to use the expensive GSLC box in a 23-y.o. off-grid upgrade to a
> Radian. That means the battery-to-inverter connections will be exposed,
> unless I find another way to enclose them.
>
> Do those OB snap-on terminal covers used with the FX series work with the
> Radian? Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks. Over and out.
> --
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!*
>
> *www.vermont.solar*
> 
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire management on Qcell AC module

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches:



Consider the vector forces
, even with just the
weight of the wire itself.  Suspended leads are going to strain the
connection points.  I suggest this approach is not a good solution.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, June 2, 2022 6:48 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] wire management on Qcell AC module



That's concerning. We just added these to our product offerings. I reviewed
the QCell installation manual for this product and there doesn't seem to be
any guidance on the subject.



Are the DC leads tight enough when connected to the microinverter that they
would not sag enough to touch the roof, or is the tape the only thing
preventing the leads from touching the roof?



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group






On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 9:37 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,



I just got some of the Qcell 360w AC modules that have the Enphase
microinverter factory applied to the back. The module is the half cut cell
type with the DC leads coming from either side of the middle of the module.
The modules come with the wires taped to the back of the module. If you
remove that tape, there appears to be almost no way to properly manage
those wires. Is that tape meant to just keep the wire on the back of the
module forever? Would that even last more than a year? I am curious what
other people have done for these if they have used them or something
similar. Maybe if you get the rail in the right spot, the wires will just
sit on the rail...



I realize that we have had a thread on wire management with half cut cell
modules before, but this is a little different, as I am specifically asking
about that tape and if anyone knows if it holds up over time.



Cheers,

Dave



-- 

[image: Logo] 


*Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar*

*p: *he | him | his
*a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
*w:* www.sungineersolar.com 
*c:* (607) 288-2898



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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire management on Qcell AC module

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dave:



Could you send a photograph, please?



Indeed this problem has been addressed before.  The only solution presented
was to add jumpers to lengthen the leads so they could be clipped to the
module frames.  This method is sub-optimal due to cost and the adding of
potential failure points.



I can’t answer your question about the tape being a lifetime solution from
an experience or engineering standpoint, but consider this logic:  Based on
our understanding of the environment behind a solar panel, it seems highly
unlikely any kind of tape would last the 25 years required.  Think about
the consequences if you rely on the tape and it fails:  you have to remove
the panels, lengthen the leads, wire manage correctly, and reinstall the
panels.



We tried mounting Enphase inverters to module frames but we aborted and
went right back to rail-mounting the inverters.  Wire management was much
easier for us, especially with Snap-N-Rack rail.



Fortunately for me my local Greentech dealer was willing to bring in a
container of Mission 350 60 cell modules (MSE350SX5T) and I bought as many
pallets as I could fit in my warehouse.  These have both leads emanating
from the short edge.  The leads dress neatly and the panels combine well
into the Outback FM100.  Plus they are US made and an all-around good panel.



I guess my purchase is a small example of market influence.  Based on what
you report we should boycott this product line.  I hope you can return them.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, June 2, 2022 6:38 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Dave Tedeyan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] wire management on Qcell AC module



Hi All,



I just got some of the Qcell 360w AC modules that have the Enphase
microinverter factory applied to the back. The module is the half cut cell
type with the DC leads coming from either side of the middle of the module.
The modules come with the wires taped to the back of the module. If you
remove that tape, there appears to be almost no way to properly manage
those wires. Is that tape meant to just keep the wire on the back of the
module forever? Would that even last more than a year? I am curious what
other people have done for these if they have used them or something
similar. Maybe if you get the rail in the right spot, the wires will just
sit on the rail...



I realize that we have had a thread on wire management with half cut cell
modules before, but this is a little different, as I am specifically asking
about that tape and if anyone knows if it holds up over time.



Cheers,

Dave



-- 

[image: Logo] 


*Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar*

*p: *he | him | his
*a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
*w:* www.sungineersolar.com 
*c:* (607) 288-2898
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[RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in
September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months
apart.  I have understood that when you install a string of batteries you
have one year in which to add another string before the first string ages
to the point it is contraindicated.  When I added the second 8 I put 4 new
batteries and 4 old batteries in each string.



About a third of the batteries are discovered to bulging on top.  I assume
this means the batteries are damaged.  I checked the FXR and Outback
Extreme Charge controller settings and all were set to absorb at 58.8, and
float at 55.2, as the manufacturer recommends.



I downloaded the charge controller log and got 129 days of data.  In that
log I see 68 days where the batteries exceeded 60 VDC. This is over half
the days.



I wonder this:



1.   Why did the voltage go up above 58.8 on so many days even though it
was set at 58.8. (I set the EQ voltage at 58.8 just in case, but EQ was
never engaged.)

2.   Did the excess voltage damage the batteries?

Any input is appreciated.



Sincerely,



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Battery Temp compensation

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am curious if any of you change the temperature compensation values for
charge systems in lead-acid battery systems to comply with a battery
manufacturer’s specifications.  Doing this would require that you drill
down into the technical literature to find that value and then have
inverter and charge control systems that allow you to make such a change.



I looked carefully through the Outback FXR and Mate 3s literature and found
no such setting in the standard values (millivolts per Degree C per cell or
per string).  I did find that Conext XW systems have that capability in the
custom battery menus.  I am not sure about all of the other inverter and
charge control systems out there but if you use any of them it is worth
checking.



This has become an issue for me in a warranty claim and I am just curious
what others are doing in this regard.  This is also a heads-up to all of
you that deal with lead acid to make sure you pick batteries that are
compatible with your electronics, particularly VRLA batteries.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Abandoned equipment

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I am sure you are regulated by the same laws that govern any repair shop.
Check your state's consumer protection web site.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 10:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Jay
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Abandoned equipment



Hi All



A question.

Panels were shipped to me, and literally dropped off the truck, 6’.

About 1/2 broken, others with probable unknown future issues.



Company I bought from sent me another pallet no charge.



It’s been 3 months and the stack of broken/damaged panels is still in my
yard and no updates or expected closure to this even after many phone
calls.



My question is, at what point are they considered abandoned? Or there might
be some other legal name.

For me to dispose of and or give away the probably damaged but unbroken
ones?



Thanks



Jay









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Re: [RE-wrenches] 26% to 30% ITC for 2022?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

August:



Could the term “standalone” refer to systems not connected to the grid?
They are still out there.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 3:24 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* August Goers
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 26% to 30% ITC for 2022?



The way I read it is that standalone means energy storage without PV. So,
the 30% credit for storage without PV won't be available until next year.
PV paired storage (where storage is charged from solar) at 30% should
qualify back to the beginning of 2022.



On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 2:04 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

I'm confused about the standalone battery provision. Does that mean that
batteries will not be eligible for a tax credit in 2022? Or does standalone
mean something different than battery backup with solar?



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group



On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 4:32 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

This SEIA link has a PDF fact sheet you can download with info:



https://www.seia.org/research-resources/inflation-reduction-act-solar-energy-and-energy-storage-provisions-summary



August

Luminalt







On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 4:51 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

PV mag .02 on solar tax credit



https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/28/solar-investment-tax-credit-to-be-extended-10-years-at-30/

Dana Orzel

C: 208.721.7003

E- d...@solarwork.com



On Aug 12, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



I have a trusted source here in Florida that read the Senate Bill text and
said it would be retroactive to 2022. The way I am handling it is telling
people my prices will surely be more than 4% more in 2023. They would be
shooting themselves in the foot by delaying their project.



Jason





On Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 6:48 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

As we know, the FED tax credit will increase for 10 years (if it passes the
House and signed into law) to 30%. But is it retro to calendar year 2022,
or start in 2023? I have some customers making decisions based on this
timing. Thanks.



I found one interpretation suggesting it will be effective in 2022 but need
some tangible proof.



-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!*

*www.vermont.solar*


dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Has anyone ever had one of his customers get a note from SolarEdge like this one?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Scott:



I can’t help with advice on the particular technical issue.  I can
sympathize, however.



This communication to the client is most unfortunate and really bad
contractor relations.  You can communicate with your customer to clear up
misinformation, but it is hard to undo this kind of damage to your
reputation.  A retraction from the manufacturer is really the only remedy.
I hope you can arrange that.



I feel your pain.  Fronious did the same thing to me a while ago and it
killed a second large project on the same commercial property.  This is
another reason I quit using Fronious.  Manufacturers' reps on this site,
please take notice.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 4:55 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* scot.a...@solarcentex.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Has anyone ever had one of his customers get a
note from SolarEdge like this one?



We just had the second SE7600 Energy Hub internal error in a year at one of
our sites. Our customer none too pleased as you might imagine. We send in
pics to SolarEdge and they say they are assessing since this is 2nd
inverter failure. Customer gets super upset and calls SE to be told – and
I’m summarizing – oh, your installer didn’t send in what we need.



Huh? We sent in the pics as requested and were told they were assessing and
not once have we been asked for further details or better pics, even after
we called back for updates.

The customer insists to SE, “send me new inverter” and SE sends this
attached note to the customer. I almost fell over…I’ve put in hundreds and
hundreds of SolarEdge to include many dual-inverter/BUI/storage systems and
to have a tech roll me and my company under the bus like this is stunning.



Has this happened to anyone else?



P.S. – I tried calling SE today for support and was told the wait was “116
minutes.” This just isn’t working. I can’t be the only one.

Posted this on LinkedIn a month ago – no retractions:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6948389740500987904?utm_source=linkedin_share&utm_medium=member_desktop_share&utm_content=post
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Mac:



Getting listing on something as specialized as you are talking about may be
difficult.  I would turn to the telecom industry for solutions.  Here is
one link

I found.  Their product line is pretty sexy and it is listed.



If you are rolling your own, you can find ampacities for standard copper
bar thicknesses someplace like here
.
You might fabricate something that looks like one of these

but bigger.  Threading is desirable so you can avoid wrangling nuts on the
back sides, but tapping copper at a reasonable bolt size (likely 3/8-16)
can be tricky.  I am looking for any excuse to buy one of these drill
presses

which can automatically chip-clear.  Basically at this point in my life my
only reason for working is to support my tool addiction.



Good luck.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, September 8, 2022 8:46 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Mac Lewis
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing



Hello Wrenches,



Is anyone aware of a high current, (~3000A DC rated, 48Vdc nominal) battery
combiner panel that would allow for ~36-48 x 4/0 cables to connect?



Seems like nothing will be close to UL listed on this.  How do you go about
building a 60 kW off-grid system on the battery side of things?  Do I need
to increase battery voltage design?



I have gotten a custom busbar fabricated by Storm Power rated for about 2kA
before, but I'd love to have a UL Listed solution for large battery
combining.  Any suggestions are appreciated.



Thanks!



-- 







Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*
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[RE-wrenches] Shipping costs

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am sure all of you are aware of the skyrocketing costs for shipping.  I
get it that fuel prices are up and I want truckers to all earn a fair
wage.  However I can help but feel there might be some gouging.  For
instance, a $900 order for rail was quoted at $4,200 for shipping from
Oregon to the central coast of California.



Fortunately the vendor allowed me to arrange my own shipping.  I used a
website called Shiply and got a quote for just over $600 for the same
order.  The company I engaged, Globaltranz has been great in communicating
concisely and promptly with me and the vendor.



I think the beauty of using a broker is you can connect with shippers that
might be travelling the desired route already and can fit your order into
an LTL rig already on the road.



The order is not here yet but it is on the way and it appears the transit
is on time.



I hope this helps some of you in procuring the parts you need in a timely
and cost efficient manner.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Shipping costs

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirpal:

Rail is actually more likely to be damaged. It’s hard to find pallets long
enough and the ends get dinged by forks. I got insurance for $50 and
ordered a couple extra.

William



On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:56 AM Kirpal via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> One down side to arranging your own shipping is that you are also usually
> shifting the responsibility for any damage upon yourself to deal with in
> case you need to make a claim..  Whereas if your distributor ships it they
> are responsible for the claim process.  Chunks of metal like many racking
> systems might be less risky to ship as they are a bit harder to damage than
> solar modules or other electronics.You might choose which shipments you
> ship or choose to have shipped.   But yes, shipping prices have gone wonky
> in some cases!
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 3:48 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Most of our hot shot deliveries have been running $2,400, Bay area -
>> Central Idaho thru a broker for our thermal collectors.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana Orzel -  E - d...@solarwork.com -  C - 208.721.7003
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2022 3:14 PM
>> *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> *Cc:* Maverick Brown 
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shipping costs
>>
>>
>>
>> William,
>>
>>
>>
>> $4200 sounds like “Expedited” Shipping and that usually means a Hot Shot
>> driver with single pickup truck and trailer driving door to door for just
>> your items.  LTL should never be $4200 unless we are in dire conditions.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope your items arrive in excellent condition!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Maverick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Maverick Brown
>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
>> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.*
>>
>> * • Solar Commander Remote Power*
>>
>>
>> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maver...@mavericksolar.com
>> 512-460-9825
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2022, at 2:06 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure all of you are aware of the skyrocketing costs for shipping.  I
>> get it that fuel prices are up and I want truckers to all earn a fair
>> wage.  However I can help but feel there might be some gouging.  For
>> instance, a $900 order for rail was quoted at $4,200 for shipping from
>> Oregon to the central coast of California.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fortunately the vendor allowed me to arrange my own shipping.  I used a
>> website called Shiply and got a quote for just over $600 for the same
>> order.  The company I engaged, Globaltranz has been great in communicating
>> concisely and promptly with me and the vendor.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the beauty of using a broker is you can connect with shippers
>> that might be travelling the desired route already and can fit your order
>> into an LTL rig already on the road.
>>
>>
>>
>> The order is not here yet but it is on the way and it appears the transit
>> is on time.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this helps some of you in procuring the parts you need in a timely
>> and cost efficient manner.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
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>> other:
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&

[RE-wrenches] Simpliphi with SW inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I have an elderly client with a dual SW system and group 8 AM batteries.
Due to a generator and charge control failure the AGMs failed after just 3
years.  I don’t blame the batteries, they were likely chronically
undercharged for some months.



The client wants to consider using Simpliphi batteries.  The new Schneider
charge controllers will likely program readily for the battery parameters.
I suspect the SW inverter charge settings will likely not be a problem, but
I am open to comments.



How about the generator auto-start?  Will there be a problem finding
settings that will accurately trigger a generator run when needed?



Any insight on interfacing a set of SW inverters to Simpliphi batteries
will be appreciated.



Thanks,



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Integrating Lithium batteries with legacy inverters.

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



This is a follow up on the question I asked about anyone having actual
experience integrating Simpliphi batteries with a Trace SW inverter
system.



I read the battery and integration manuals carefully and spoke with
Simpliphi tech support.  The systems are absolutely compatible but only if
the inverter and charge controllers are programmed correctly.



Therein is the problem:  If the SW inverters lose DC power, the programming
is erased and the inverters reset to factory defaults.  These default
settings are not acceptable for safe operation of the Simpliphi batteries.



If the client is capable of determining when the settings have been reset
and can reprogram the inverters when needed, then maybe the design is
acceptable.  In the case I am working on, the client does not have these
capabilities.  It was decided to replace the dead batteries with the same
AGM style batteries currently in use, not the Simpliphi.



Thanks for your input.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] partial data loss Mate 3s

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Mac:

I’ve seen a Mate 3S reprogram stacking on its own. After firmware update it
stopped happening.

Make sure you set unique password or tech support will blame your customer.

Good luck.

William

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 9:12 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I am trying to figure out a tricky problem.  I have a customer with a Mate
> 3s, most current firmware 1.4.7 paired with a radian and a couple of FM60s
> and some Lithium batteries.  We have experienced partial data loss,
> particularly of the Mate 3s generator start parameters.  These parameters
> seem to go back to defaults and it defaults to an AGS disabled state.
>
>   At first I thought it was due to electrical storms, because we've had
> quite a bit of lightning lately, but now I'm not sure.  The Cat6 run is
> about 80' or something like that, so it could be some induction.
>
> Anyone seen anything like this?  Same parameters were lost from first data
> loss to following data loss.  Kind of strange.  I haven't visited the site
> so I may not b getting the full picture.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
> ___
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> --

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Need two wire submersible cable

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

I am looking for cable appropriate to connect a low water sensor. It is two
wire, low current. 18 to 14 gauge would work.

Does anyone know where I can source such an item?  I need only 150’.

Thanks in advance for your help.

William
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA without WiFi

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jeremy:

If the device you want to connect to does not have Wifi capability then you
don’t need an extender, you need a station device. The unit will receive
via wifi and convert to a wired Ethernet cable.

I recommend the Ubiquiti nano-stations.
https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-devices/products/2-4-ghz-loco

You have to know a bit about wifi networking to set one up. There are
tutorials out there to coach you. Contact me off-line if you want more
information on setting one up.

William


On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 3:25 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Can anyone recommend the best Wi-Fi repeater to use with the new Sunny
> boys’ that do not have Wi-Fi capability?
> Mr. Mahon?
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
> ___
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Need two wire submersible cable and water pump miscellany

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks to all of you that offered suggestions.  I found what I needed for
this project:  Nassau National Cable offered a two wire, 14 AWG CU tray
cable.  Attached is the data sheet if anyone is interested.



The vendor can be found at:  *www.nassaunationalcable.com
*.  They were very responsive.



The cable mated quite nicely with the small gauge leads on the low water
sensor and even with a very tough jacket was small enough to fit alongside
the pump power cables in the conduit at the well-head.



By the way, this installation used a Picocell 2000 pump controller which
converts DC to single or three phase at 120 or 230 VAC.  It is good up to 1
HP or a bit more.  It is a nice product.  I recommend an outboard DC switch
and an adjacent J-box to hold service loops since the wiring compartment is
quite small.  The controller is set up with gland fittings to facilitate
jacketed cables but we switched those out for NMLT.  I have always
preferred to protect wiring.



As another aside, our local well technicians could not source a low water
sensor for us. Thunderbird solar has them.  Locally, the well technicians
like using the Franklin pump-saver to protect a pump from dry running.  I
don’t prefer the pump-saver because they are fickle, expensive and require
some duration of dry run before they shut down.  We prefer a down-hole
sensor.  With the lowering of water tables here in the arid west, it is
important to be able to protect well pumps from dry running and to provide
for intermittent pumping to allow maximum production on slow-recharge
wells.  All of our wells will have low water sensors from now on.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985


14 AWG THHN Tray Cable TC-ER (2).pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Colleagues:



I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent
subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage
work.



I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting
it up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty
amazing.  I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I
am close.  I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.



I found this tutorial

on line that has provided me with some valuable insight on different styles
of taps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Michael Morningstar
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing



No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to do
in the above mentioned bussing



On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Michael,

 Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had
better luck with that in softer than steel metals.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049

On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house
> fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now
> we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars
> in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with
> slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover
> AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer
> sign off on our designs.
>
> I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper.
> I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to
> thru-bolting.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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-- 

Michael Morningstar



Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dana:

I have never incorporated a transfer switch with a battery inverter. The
inverter’s internal transfer relay with the smarts it provides has always
been preferred.

I have of course used a transfer switch for generator-only systems. In some
cases the generator is rated smaller than the utility feed and the user
needs to live within the capabilities of the generator on the rare occasion
when the utility is down.

So your scenario brings up an interesting option: using a full 200 amp
transfer switch means the Radian is not a 50 amp bottleneck when the
utility is up. The Radian would become an ersatz generator connected to the
gen input on the transfer switch.

The wrinkle is: how do you provide an AC input to the Radian to charge
batteries when the grid is up without triggering the transfer switch?

When the Radian sees AC input it wants to through-transfer. There must be
some way to configure the transfer switch to not trigger when the grid is
up. Then a breaker from the main panel feeds the Radian, the Radian charges
batteries and the Radian output goes nowhere.

However when the grid does go down and the transfer happens you have a
power flow loop which will shut down the Radian.

I imagine there is some scheme of running the Radian input through a
contractor that would be opened when the transfer switch connects the
Radian output to the load. I think if you solve that you may have a working
option. This does add a layer of complexity, however.

Good luck.

William Miller

PS:  You could use an outboard battery charger, however that is a waste of
the very good battery charger built into the Radian

Wm

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!
>
>
>
> I inherited a backup system that had “failed”. It was unwired, & poorly
> labeled.
>
>
>
> 1200 AHR AGM Battery – 1 Radian 8KW inverter – 200 amp Generac transfer
> switch – No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.
>
>
>
> First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
> could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said “it had worked fine for 5
> years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up”…
>
> Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
> shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller &
> transfer switch.
>
> Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
> with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.
>
>
>
> The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX
> output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on
> the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.
>
>
>
> I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
> articles to read.
>
>
>
> Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?
>
>
>
> All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane season!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> www.greatsolarworks.comwww.solarwor.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
>
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace SW inverter connected to the grid.

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

David:

I investigated a grid-connected SW system in 2017. There were no GTI units
in place. The sell function was disabled. The utility reported  that
back-feed was occurring.

Upon further investigation it turns out the SW inverters were selling about
1 amp 24/7. I can’t remember if it was 1 amp each or in total. Of course
this unexpected back-feed is not acceptable. It is possibly the cause of
the utility complaint in this case.

I believe the GTI units were invented to prevent this uncontrollable
back-feed.

I hope this information is helpful.

William Miller

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 7:22 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
>
>
> I have been retired from doing solar installs for 10 years now and I am
> reaching out for help as to recommending a solution to an old
> do-it-yourself customers question.
>
> His solar system that was formerly off-grid and is now using grid power
> instead of a back up generator.
>
> He had/has no intention of doing a net-metered system. Just trying to
> reduce dependance on a fossil fuel genset during our mostly sunless Vermont
> winters.
>
>
>
> He says that he brought in power a few years ago to run their expanding
> maple sugaring operation located next to their house. At that time they ran
> a 115Vac circuit (grid power) over to their house and connected grid power
> into AC Hot In terminal #! in their Trace SW 2512. This is correct as I see
> terminal #2 is labeled for generator power.
>
> He has the Trace programmed for float mode  not sell mode.
>
>
>
> Their local utility was working on the line nearby on the main road and
> noticed a small amount of current flowing into the grid and figured out
> where it was coming from. The utility did not immediately shut him down.
> Just told him to correct the problem. He is asking me for advice.
>
>
>
> My first inclination is to separate the grid power completely from the
> inverter power and to feed both power sources into a double pole double
> throw transfer switch. What other options should be considered.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance and happy holidays,
>
>
>
> Dave Palumbo
>
> Formerly > Independent Power & Light
>
> Hyde Park, VT
>
> 802-371-8678 voice or text
>
>
>
>
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Wrenched:



Merry Christmas to those of you that observe such traditions, or substitute
the winter festivity of your choice.



I helped a previous employee install an Enphase IQ8 system on his home.  He
applied for the utility approval concurrently with his building permit  The
day he got his final inspection the utility contacted him and claimed "The
aggregate generation exceeds the identified transformer rating" and refused
him a Permission to Operate letter.



Adding up the service ratings of the homes on his secondary we get about
336 kW of potential consumption.  Adding the grid-tied systems on his
secondary we get about 16.5 kW.  How is it that the back-feed exceeds the
transformer rating?



I would appreciate any insight on how to consider this situation and how to
fight it.



Sincerely,



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Shipping

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



A while ago I posted some questions about shipping.  I know this is
tangential to solar installation, but you can’t install what you can’t get.



I got my rail but there were some hiccups.  I thought some of you might
benefit from my experience:



I contracted for the shipping using Shiply.  The vendor sent the wrong
quantity of the wrong rail and it arrived damaged.  I refused the
shipment.  I was also charge for use of a lift gate even though I used my
forklift.



I turns out I was liable for the cost to ship back the wrong, defective
rail.  This was because I contracted the shipment.  Fortunately the vendor
paid for the return and did so promptly.



Here is what I will do next time:



1.   I will always pay for damage insurance.

2.   On the PO I will put a note that the shipper is responsible for paying
for return shipping in the case of incorrect parts or damage that could be
attributed to poor packaging.

3.   Before contracting for the shipping I will insist I have a contact
number for the vendors warehouse foreperson.

4.   I will ask the foreperson to send me photographs of the shipment after
it is packaged.  I want the photos to show the quantity, the part number
label and that the packaging is adequate.

5.   Only after I see all is correct will I approve the pickup.

6.   At the time of delivery, and before the driver leaves, I will
photograph the unloading using my forklift with the delivery truck
in-frame.  I will check carefully for damages.  If there is damage to the
contents I will refuse the shipment.  If there is damage to that packaging
I will photograph that with the truck or driver in frame and note the
damage on the BOL.



I hope none of you ever have this many problems with shipping.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Scott:

I don't know about lead items for other than Outback as that is what we
are using on the jobs we have going.  I show May as the delivery for
Mate3ses (who names these parts anyway?).

I have never liked integrated systems.  Ever since I was a kid I preferred
component stereo equipment because it gave me more control of my options.
The same is true for off-grid power equipment.  Some systems need more
charge control, some less, for example.  Having the charge controller
built into the inverters makes customizing difficult.

Another issue is cases of failure.  If an integrated inverter/charge
controller experiences a failure it makes it more likely the whole system
is non-operational.

And finally, now component parts area becoming harder to procure.  If
everything is built into one box and that box is held up by lack of one
chip, my project is stalled.  If I can get some of the components I can
start an installation and possibly work around missing parts.

To answer your question, I think you are worse off now with an integrated
system than with separate parts.

William Miller

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:28 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Cc: scot.a...@solarcentex.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100

Hate to ask but are these long lead like SMA and Fronius have become? If
shortage, is this some sign that charge controllers are being overtaken by
hybrid inverters with integrated chargers (like Sol-Ark?).

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of
jay via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:53 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: jay 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100

HI All,

Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be
available?

thx
jay
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[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The AHJ
has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect there
will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become
inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a
waiver.



The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of
2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect
equipment.



To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5
or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner
outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.



The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet
to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system that
can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we
will not have that luxury.



I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high
amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment.



I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery
disconnecting in these types of cases..



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Glenn:



As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q&A
with the building official:



4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC
output of the inverter system from premise wiring?

Yes, as required per 230.85

5.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries
from the inverters?

Yes



If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s
time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, researching on my own
before posting and trying to make my questions very clear.  I also try not
to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM
*To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Glenn Burt
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects



Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or
does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC
within the house?

Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code
evolves.



-Glenn

Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.



-- Original message--

*From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches

*Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM

*To: *RE-wrenches;

*Cc: *William Miller;

*Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects



Friends:



We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The AHJ
has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect there
will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become
inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a
waiver.



The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of
2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect
equipment.



To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5
or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner
outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.



The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet
to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system that
can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we
will not have that luxury.



I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high
amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment.



I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery
disconnecting in these types of cases..



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jeremy:



Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them
up.



Chris:



What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or
both panel types”?



All:



Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
requirements above and beyond the code.



It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
leads.



In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.



By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage
specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a
nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.



I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this
works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth
trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.





William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
*To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects





*2020 Code Language:*

*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*

*(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for all
ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
and located within sight of the battery system.*

*N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family dwellings, a
disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system
shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for
emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.*

*N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected
strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by
qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be
permitted.*



Jeremy Rodriguez

Solar Installation / Design

All Solar, Inc.

1453 M St.

Penrose Colorado 81240



Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.



On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not
specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no
code reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot
of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of
money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris

On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:

Glenn:



As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q&A
with the building official:



4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC
output of the inverter system from premise wiring?

Yes, as required per 230.85

5.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries
from the inverters?

Yes



If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s
time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, researching on my own
before posting and trying to make my questions very clear.  I also try not
to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, January 27, 20

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Esteemed wrenches:

Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for
lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the
charge controllers later.

Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…

Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing
with it. Test it only after dark.

William

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce 
wrote:

> All
>
> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
> are under full load.
> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jeremy:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
>> them up.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris:
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
>> or both panel types”?
>>
>>
>>
>> All:
>>
>>
>>
>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
>> requirements above and beyond the code.
>>
>>
>>
>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
>> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
>> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
>> leads.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how
>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments
>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
>> *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> *2020 Code Language:*
>>
>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*
>>
>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for
>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
>> and located within sight of the battery system.*
>>
>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family
>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary
>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside
>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY
>> DISCONNECT”.*
>>
>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
>> to field servicing sha

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

James:

Your on-grid home or business already has a quick and efficient means of
disconnecting power by a random person: If you have a non-CT meter it’s a
matter of clipping the meter tag and pulling the meter. If there is a CT
meter,  there will be a switch to flip.

Fortunately off-grid homes do not usually have random people on the
premises.

I have always felt it beyond my expertise to second-guess what first
responders require  to perform their jobs safely.

Most code requirements do add expense and inconvenience. However most
requirements seem well founded in logic. When I travel in third world
countries or read about building system failures, I personally appreciate
the codes we have.

William

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 4:58 PM James Jarvis  wrote:

> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
> property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off
> my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there
> is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.
>
> -James Jefferson Jarvis
> APRS World, LLC
> +1-507-454-2727
> http://www.aprsworld.com/
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Esteemed wrenches:
>>
>> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed
>> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about
>> the charge controllers later.
>>
>> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…
>>
>> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from
>> messing with it. Test it only after dark.
>>
>> William
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <
>> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>>
>>> All
>>>
>>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT
>>> charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge
>>> controllers are under full load.
>>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk
>>> when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeremy:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
>>>> them up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
>>>> or both panel types”?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building
>>>> officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should
>>>> already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their
>>>> own requirements above and beyond the code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
>>>> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
>>>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
>>>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
>>>> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
>>>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
>>>> leads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
>>>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
>>>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
>>>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
>>>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
>>>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
>>>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
>>>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
>>>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery dis

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

power. We still don't for businesses.



My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a
buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects
on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be
slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled
disconnects.



William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery
disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You
had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow
up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And
removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to
island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a
telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when
their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full
load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea.


-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727

http://www.aprsworld.com/





On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a
main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many
cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”



In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary
standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family
dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency
disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings
[230.85].

Brian Mehalic



On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off
my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there
is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.


-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727

http://www.aprsworld.com/





On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Esteemed wrenches:



Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for
lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the
charge controllers later.



Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…



Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing
with it. Test it only after dark.



William



On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce 
wrote:

All



One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
are under full load.

Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.



On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jeremy:



Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them
up.



Chris:



What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or
both panel types”?



All:



Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
requirements above and beyond the code.



It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
leads.



In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.



By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage
specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a
nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.



I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this
works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth
trying in any jurisdiction requiring th

Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Bill:

I’m not sure what you are doing is entirely legal. Tenants can only be
billed for actual (measured) utility usage.

This does not necessarily apply to your situation but it should be noted:
 Tenants must be billed at the rate the landlord is charged— no marking up
the cost.

I’d say anyone with tenants wanting to pass on utility costs needs to
sub-meter. Good records need to be kept.

If you are being billed at TOU and/or tiered rates then you need to do the
accounting and bill at the variable rates.

E-Gauge is a fine platform for that. You can download an hour-by-hour
record and apply the correct rates.

William Miller

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:54 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Carl,
>
>  In my area (PG&E, N. California) I've installed solar on
> four of my rentals.  Rather than trying to figure out monthly billing,
> renters come, renters go, true-up, some occasionally don't pay their
> bills, etc. I decided to just bump up the rent to cover the average cost
> of power.  The tenant still gets the PG&E bill and pays the ~$10/mo.
> meter charge and if they are there at true-up time they pay zero or a
> small end-of-year amount.  My renters have been happy with this
> arrangement.
>
>  You have to do some math to have it come out close and I
> did the grid-ties after each rental had some electrical history.
> Fortunately nobody has decided to have a grow-room, yet.  Whenever an
> appliance needs replacing, I install Energy Star replacements.  Of
> course I tell them that if they are reasonably careful their true-up
> will be little to none.  Eventually my investment gets paid off and the
> higher rent goes into my pocket instead of PG&E's.  Win-win.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
> 5575 Genesee Rd
> .
> (USPS, UPS)
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
> CA Lic 874049
> Solar powered since 1982
>
> On 1/30/2023 5:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > Hello wrenches,
> > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building
> > where he has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there
> > any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this
> > situation.  Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue
> > grade meters.
> >
> > With kind of regards
> > Carl Adams
> > SunRock Solar
> >
> > ___
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kieran:

You’ve got me confused with someone else. I do not pretend to know anything
about Sol-arc. ( I do know if I was inventing electrical equipment I would
not put “arc” in the name.)

Wm

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 3:53 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
>
> William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while it's
> charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never used
>
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] DC Disconnect for first responders

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Here is how this resolved for my upcoming project:  I submitted a request
to the building department to waive the requirement for a DC disconnect. I
based the justification on the need to keep a pressure pump for the fire
sprinklers and a fire alarm operational.  I will supply an external AC
disconnect to de-energize all premise wiring except those circuits
mentioned above.  The request was granted.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Mac:



Maybe the SnapnRack MLPE flange kit is what you need?



https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SNR_MLPE-Frame-Attachment-Kit-Installation-Manual_v.1.1.pdf





William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:56 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Mac Lewis
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate



Hello Wrenches,



We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a
house with AC modules.  It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+.  Solaria
is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module
(MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box).  This seems OK but the issue is the
that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing
rail.



I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to
sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for
this particular tech support contact to deal with).  Im sure I can fab up
something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this?  Or has a good
contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request.



Thanks in advance!



-- 







Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*
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[RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

To my Friends on the Wrenches forum:



This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based
grid-tied contractor.  The subject itself may be of more general interest
as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be
more prevalent in the future.  The subject has many layers to discuss, but
I have a very specific question:



The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied
customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California.  It
specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers
that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status
for 20 years from date of system commission.  After that 20 years these
customers will be demoted to NEM3.  The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks
for customers.



My home system was commissioned in October of 2003.  That means that in
eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading
kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems
in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients.  I
worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive.
This is really a sad result for early adopters.



BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install
solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal.  The hidden story is this
sunset provision.  As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair.



I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2
status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and
re-installing.



So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep
NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3?  Any advice is appreciated.



If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your
customers a heads up.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Pacific power is not an investor owned utility.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 3:44 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> My 2005 yearly billing, net metering agreement with Pacific Power says
> nothing about it being only valid for 20 years.
>
>
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 3, 2023 8:46am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
>
> To my Friends on the Wrenches forum:
>
>
>
> This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based
> grid-tied contractor.  The subject itself may be of more general interest
> as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be
> more prevalent in the future.  The subject has many layers to discuss, but
> I have a very specific question:
>
>
>
> The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied
> customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California.  It
> specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers
> that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status
> for 20 years from date of system commission.  After that 20 years these
> customers will be demoted to NEM3.  The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks
> for customers.
>
>
>
> My home system was commissioned in October of 2003.  That means that in
> eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading
> kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems
> in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients.  I
> worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive.
> This is really a sad result for early adopters.
>
>
>
> BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install
> solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal.  The hidden story is this
> sunset provision.  As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair.
>
>
>
> I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2
> status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and
> re-installing.
>
>
>
> So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep
> NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3?  Any advice is appreciated.
>
>
>
> If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your
> customers a heads up.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
> ___
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



Control by Web.   The hardware is robust.
You can write code or use built-in functions.  There is a smart-pone app or
you can interface by browser.



Here

is a link to a job we did with CBW equipment.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2023 12:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Jay
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control



Hi all



Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay?



Would be off grid. There is 12v already there.

I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex  pump, only a dry dpst
contact is required.



Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one
could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc.



Thanks



Jay

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[RE-wrenches] Trace SW remote display adapter

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am trying to help a client connect a Trace SW replacement display to a PS
series inverter
.  I
have done this once but it was using a stand-alone remote display (SWRC)
that was packaged in a shallow enclosure with a standard DB25 connector.
We are trying to do this with a replacement display.



The display itself has a ribbon cable with a header connector.  Does anyone
have a wiring diagram on how to convert the 20 pin header to a DB25
connector?  This could then be connected to the PS Series remote display
connector.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks for bringing up this scenario.



I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other
deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof:



1.   I worry about compression of the foam material over time.  This could
leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly brackets.

2.   I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof rain-proofing.
By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc.  Since roofs were first
thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the only way to reliably
shed water.  Overlapping, seamless material is the only method to use.
Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the rafter is often under
an architectural feature or seam in the shingles.

I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW.  The fasteners
provided were not rated for the application, according to the fastener
manufacturer.  If you can match the fasteners to the decking and the
forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution.



Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing
metal, lapped under the next course up.  The flashing gives a flat,
seamless surface to caulk or gasket to.  The thicker and wider the
flashing, the more you distribute the downward force

applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners.  Any voids under the
bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it.



I hope these musings help you find a solution.



William Miller



PS:  I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up
roofing (BUR ).  We
have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on top
of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing
with cant strips
.
A pitched roof is a different situation, however.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* August Goers
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply



We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically pencil
out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as the
deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the
roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that roof
construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures.



We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products like
the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they offer
several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, thus
virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp
shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing.



August

Luminalt



On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

We like Spider Rax… with the flashing!



*Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting *

*spiderrax.com *

*Error! Filename not specified.* 



*Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*

President


*Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE*



*Since 1987, helping you and your *

*Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.*




*503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com
*



On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Wrenches

Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole
attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base,
lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath
to attach.

Fun times



On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Matt,

I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is
the foam?  Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G?  Do you know how the
plywood is attached?.through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers,
nailers or whatever they're called?

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric

Bill Battagin, Owner

4291 Nelson St.(shipping)

5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)

Taylorsville, CA 95983

530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell

CA Lic 874049

Solar powered since 1982

On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi Matt,

I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way
to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case)

https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/



You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier
though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" p

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Daniel:



I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had
failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and
chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain
constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took
until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more.



The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty relief in
part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 7 months
apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket.



If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would
extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  My
guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a hastened
decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done over many years.



I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.
Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  Three
strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple parallel
strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process I call
“battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the higher
voltage batteries over time.



If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the best
batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then redesign the
system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two volt cells are a
practical way to achieve this.



Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are using
the proper temperature compensation value applied to all charging sources.
Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and proved good ventilation.



I hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Daniel Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank



Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net
result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby
the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them
shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are
of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a
big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older
faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery
bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
batteries would cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Chris:

Respectfully:  it’s not the same thing. Outback is not discontinuing the
Mate.

If you have an Outback inverter you need a Mate and the Mate accesses the
FM100.

Sure it would be better if the FM100 had a display, but there is a viable
option in the Mate.

William

On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> akin to outback and their FM100 charger controller with no display. I use
> the Midnite classic 200 instead.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
>> Thanks Glen !  I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar.
>>
>>
>> Register here:
>>
>> https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled
>> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.
>> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference.
>> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is
>> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither
>> WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the
>> tablet
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches
>> *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM
>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>> *Cc: *Mac Lewis;
>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI
>> onsite for non-savvy consumers?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac Lewis
>>
>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
>>
>> ___
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>
> --
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> **www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Ski-ark without batteries

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode?

I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation.

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks for the replies on the subject.   I was impressed that Sol-ark got
back to me the next day and confirmed the answer is yes.



We are well aware of the limitations of installing without batteries.  The
option provides several benefits, including meeting a filing deadline
without being forced to pick a battery model and allowing the expense of
batteries to be delayed until the budget is in place.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

[image: Hammer | MC Systems]



Plus



[image: chiptoolz | Rafter Finder]



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, April 16, 2023 8:12 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Kristopher Schmid
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truss finder



I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any
recommendations or testimonials?

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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[RE-wrenches] Straw bale wi-fi

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

I have install a gateway in an exterior equipment space outside of a straw
bale envelope once and wi-fi reception was no problem.

I think that every situation needs to be evaluated on it’s own, however.
Checking with a smart phone is a good start.

William
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Darryl:



Here are a few suggestions:



1.   Don’t move to California.  Those rates are unheard of here for many
years.

2.  Grid-zero.  From the manual:  In *GridZero *mode, the Radian
inverter remains grid-connected, but prioritizes the use of battery or
renewable sources to run loads.

3.   Mini-grid. From the manual: In Mini Grid mode, the Radian inverter
automatically rejects an AC source and runs solely from battery (and
renewable) energy. The inverter only connects to the AC source (usually the
utility grid) when the batteries run too low.  While connected to the
utility grid, the inverter’s charger can be set either On or Off.

4.   HBX mode.  From the manual:  In High Battery Transfer (HBX) mode, the
system is connected to an AC source such as the utility grid; however, it
will use battery power as the fi rst priority. The AC source is locked out
until needed.

5.   Grid use time:  From the manual:  This function allows the system to
connect to (use) the utility grid and disconnect from (drop) it on a
schedule.

6.   Grid-tie:  Sell back and reduce the energy bill.



I will leave it to you to delve into these options and see if the work for
your application.  Some functions can be mixed, some cannot.



I hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 2, 2023 11:05 AM
*To:* newrewrenches
*Cc:* Darryl Thayer
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering



Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question.  I did go online to
ask Outback twice, no answer.System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each
1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s.  Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop.  The
owner wants the lowest energy bill.  The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh
and on-peak at 0.21/kWh.  My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to
9:00 pm.  However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days,
AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power.  Is there a way
to switch to grid power for this period?   I do not want to charge the
battery at this time.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:

You should be able to connect to a 120/240 split phase feeder. Avoid the
stinger. I have done it with FXRs , works just fine.

Wm

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:11 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open
> delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration.
>
> We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240
> Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase.
>
> The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a
> solid neutral connection.
>
> My concerns with what we have found so far are:
> 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta?
> 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient?
> 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source
> for economically priced transformers.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>
>
>
>
> --
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Rick:



I think this is a state by state issue.  From this article
:



“Building codes vary from state to state and between jurisdictions.”



In all jusrisdictions in my part of California, the local Fire Marshal is
the final arbiter on what is allowed. Some building departments provide
specifications for setbacks and some require I submit a plan for review to
the Fire Marshal.



If you are seeing conflicting requirements, reach out to the Fire Marshal
and the building department.  What I get away with will have little bearing
on how your local officials may rule.



I have obtained variances for being a few inches short of the required
distance or if the pathway that the setback would create is otherwise
inaccesble due to lack of safe ladder-set location.  This was accomplished
by approaching the Fire Marshall with a clear drawing and good logic.



I hope this helps,



William Miller



PS:  The article you cite reads like the world, as we know it, will end
with the adoption of setbacks in Virginia.  I felt the same way years ago
when California adopted setbacks, but I am still alive.  Sure, some
projects allow less PV on a roof now, but I have to rely on experts to
inform me what is safe for firefighters because I have no expertise on the
issue.



WM



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2023 12:01 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* r...@solshineenergy.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks



Wrenches,



Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018
code states the following:


R324.6.2 Setback at ridge.

For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan view
total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is
required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays
occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less
than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a
horizontal ridge.



In reading this
article
put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s
no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although
their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code
that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks?



Thanks,





rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergy.com
Roanoke, VA

Office: 540.235.3095
Mobile: 540.808.9502

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21


[image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg]
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[RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost 20
years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
problem.



These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The home
runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
jumpers are THWN.



Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We isolated
the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box and all
of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected every
panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.



I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe it
has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
commonly done.  That looks like my next step.



Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/JP_Radian/JP_Radian.html





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 4:55 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar



Hi all,



I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will
feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting
this up in the most elegant way possible.



Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it
(off-list is fine).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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[RE-wrenches] Testing strings with Tigo

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We are in the midst of our first off-grid, DC coupled project using Tigo
TS4-A-F RSS switches.



In my few years installing solar I am accustomed to testing PV strings with
a Fluke 87 for Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp, or some combination.  I do this
regularly in the midst of installing PV so I can be confident once we are
finished there will be no issues with the panels or the wiring.



I understand these tests are not possible with the Tigo units.  With the
circuits unterminated, I can see the 0.6 VDC/Tigo with no keep-alive signal
transmitted.  With the signal being transmitted, I do not see the expected
readings for Voc.  I get only the 0.6/Tigo.  When shorted into the Fluke DC
input the Isc jumps around between 0 and about 2 amps.



I was told by tech support the PV circuits need to be “terminated” at an
inverter before any voltage or current can be measured.  The circuits do
not terminate in an inverter; they will connect to a charge controller
(FM100, in this case).



We have not pulled the PV feeders so connecting to the charge controllers
is not yet possible.  I am nervous about installing the remainder of the
modules without knowing for certain they will produce as they should.



What would you all do to assure yourselves the PV will produce once
connected?



TIA.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Darryl:



Set Azimuth to 0 degrees:





William





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 19, 2023 12:17 PM
*To:* newrewrenches
*Cc:* Darryl Thayer
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north
facing roof



Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof.  I don't
know how to get answer from PV Watts?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Mick:

Square D offers a set of auxiliary contacts on the double throw switches.
It is ordered by adding a suffix to the model number. Check the footnotes
in the Digest. My supplier at CED can hook you up and arrange a drop
shipment. Eddie Jensen at 805-543-4700.

Be careful though, these are micro switches that sometimes come mis-aligned
such that they might barely trip when installed and then not quite trip
later on. Exercise the switch and observe the throw to ensure it is
positive.

Good luck.

William

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 3:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with
> easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch
> would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers.
>
> I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+
> generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3
> phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the
> trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight
> and on cost.
>
> The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because
> folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any
> switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the
> machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c
> each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch
> inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would
> require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code
> inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb!
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
> ᐧ
> ___
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> --

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Ron:



If your client has a large battery bank and the inverter/charger cannot
deliver enough charging amps, maybe your client has the wrong
inverter/charger.  Tacking on accessory equipment complicates an
installation.



There is a reason integrated inverter/chargers are popular.  They all have
sophisticated charging algorithms.  They are remotely programmable and
monitorable.  An integrated inverter/charger uses one set of AC and DC
leads as opposed to adding another set of both for an outboard charger.  An
integrated unit can handle AGM functions (maybe not the Solark).  An
integrated unit will transition seamlessly between inverting and charging
and transfer AC loads.  If you stop and think about it, modern
inverter/chargers are amazing devices.



There are many models that can do what you need:  One Radian 8048 can
deliver 115 amps of battery charging. One Schneider XWPro offers 140 amps.
One Solark15 has 275 (???) battery charging amps.  (I don’t think the
Solark published data is organized well.  Maybe someone knows the real
value).



Good luck.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ron Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, September 4, 2023 4:17 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Ron Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations



Hi All,



I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger
(min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum
85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40.
Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one
but not sure if there’s anything else out there.



Ron



earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

1-877-925-2929
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I had an experience with a more modern inverter system creating harmonic
distortion on the output waveform during generator run.  That issue was
documented here
.
The inverter system is Outback Radian.



A few weeks ago I received a call from an individual that was researching a
similar problem.  He called me to tell me he had resolved his harmonic
distortion problem by installing a 20 microfarad capacitor in the circuit
that was having problems.



I have read here about adding a capacitor to solve distortion problems. The
same client is still having problems running a modern oven.  I ordered a 20
microfarad, non-polarized capacitor rated at 440 VAC.  I will let you know
if this provides any resolution.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ray via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 10:12 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Cc:* Ray
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter



That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put
out.  They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared
to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave.  Later inverters (Outback,
Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less
trouble.

Trace SW waveform



I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a capacitor
to the circuit.  I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand point, but
it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible dangers?  Cap
blowing, fires, shorts?  Definitely needs to be in a metal enclosure.

I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At
22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:

I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two.
They do not last forever! Good Luck



*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"*

*   https://offgridsolar1.com/
  *

*e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net *

*text 209 813 0060*



On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:

New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave.  You have
to know the power.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi folks:



I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.  It's been
working  great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's gotten a new
Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the old inverter.
Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' available that will
work for this appliance's operation?  Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated.  He's rather loathe to replace his inverter if he doesn't need
to.



Best,



Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax

www.oasismontana.com



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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



Thanks.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Storm Copper has tables.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Thx Michael
>
> How do you calculate buss bar size?
> Is there a specific formula or table I can find?
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar 
> wrote:
>
> 
> I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and
> inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture
> of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted
> set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr
> batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size)
> bussbar
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good design.
>>
>>
>> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need
>> Michael.
>>
>> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in
>> parallel?
>>
>> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way.
>> Or
>> Not worrying about different cable lengths?
>> Or
>> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD
>> Or
>> Making all the cables the same length?
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jay,
>> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going
>> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.
>> Jason,
>> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time
>> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?
>>>
>>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with
>>> future expansion capabilities beyond that.
>>>
>>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning
>>> for?
>>>
>>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high
>>> voltage battery vs 48v?
>>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently.
>>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit
>>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with
>>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see
>>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled
>>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not
>>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there
>>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with
>>> three units.
>>>
>>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC
>>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the
>>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the
>>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So
>>> that's another required load center.
>>>
>>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer
>>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a
>>> 400A DPDT switch costs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate.
 We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have
 some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.

 Here's the existing infrastructure.
 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to
 various sub-panels on the property
 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator
 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array.
 Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is 
 janky.
 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw.
 This could increase as several of formerly vacant  guest residences could
 be occupied.

 My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I
 looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kieran:

I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been
problems and recommended open loop.

Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
> the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
> all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
> https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kienan Maxfield
> Technical sales, Technical Support
>
> *Green-Go Solar Distribution*
> *kienan@dist.solar* <https://kienan@dist.solar/>
> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*
> *www.distribution.solar <https://www.distribution.solar/>*
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* Kirk Herander 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
>
> Jerry,
>
> Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Mac, wrenches
> SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
> Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
> they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
> the genny.
> Fun times
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>
> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>
> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>
> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
> communication for many manufacturers.
>
> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> William, Wrenches
> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
> OldSchool fun times
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

 you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.

OldSchool fun times







On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



Thanks.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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-- 







Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*

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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

How can one read error and/or warning code either via Sunny Portal or port
forwarding a Webbbox?

I can see charts galore on the Portal but I can’t find error or warning
logs.

Also, I get alerts via email but they are vague, as in “3xx” or “7xx”.

Apologies if this is a dumb question.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off grid.
When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty
quickly and the system shuts off.

I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but
apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now
and we can rely on generator.

Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated.  SMA can be less
than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries.

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

12 kw PV nominal. Low tilt angle and old panels so reality is far less.
5 e-vault 18.5 kWh batteries
4 SI 6048
2 SB 6000 US

System operational for some years with flooded batteries. Just installed
the e-vaults. I reset the system to factory defaults. I am not sure how to
verify the system will properly offset frequency if batteries are full.

Having just written this I realize there is a discrepancy between the SOC
the SIs report (46%) and the SOC the e-vaults report (98%). It could be the
SIs want to push a lot of charge to the e-vaults but they won’t accept the
charge because they are charged.

I installed 3 of the vaults temporarily a week ago. At first there was a
large discrepancy between SOC from batteries to SIs. Eventually that delta
reduced to 4%. Maybe this problem will resolve itself?

What settings on the SI are necessary to enable frequency shifting?

Thanks everyone for the response. There is nothing worse than being on-site
and not knowing how to get a system to operate. I shut off the PV and will
let the generator fill in the deficit until Monday.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:57 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> What is the array size vs the battery size?  Sounds like a big array on a
> small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast.
>
> Ray
> Remote Solar
> On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
> I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off
> grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty
> quickly and the system shuts off.
>
> I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but
> apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now
> and we can rely on generator.
>
> Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated.  SMA can be
> less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Vince:



My notes indicate:  (833) 391-8640.  Wait for menu options and press 8.
It’s been a while since I called.  I am not impressed by the product line
or tech support.



Good luck.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2023 5:28 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Vince McClellan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support



Hello

Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't
worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing
another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the
middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago
there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech
support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't
actually get to tech support.



Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,


Vince McClellan

Energy Design

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202



If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



This situation is as yet unresolved.  It is complicated enough I created a web
page

to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over.  I
submitted this to Fortress tech support.  They said they had likely not
tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system.



While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am
brainstorming solutions.  One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system.
DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control.  The
charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp
unit.  I would need two of them.  It is compatible with the existing string
wiring.  In researching it many questions came up about that product’s
suitability.  There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and
Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA.  Would I be
able to apply closed loop communication to both systems?  Could the charge
controllers work in open loop?  Has anyone tried anything like this?



I will keep you apprised.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

What is the magic extension number?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:24 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:

> Some of you folks are using really old Phone info.The number changed
> almost 3 years ago I believe.
>
> 1 833 391 8640  5 am to 8 pm Pacific time
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-10-24 10:38 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
>  *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-10-23 8:16 pm, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi Michael
> I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I
> haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still have a
> bunch of systems out there with their products.
>
>
> Vince McClellan
>
> Energy Design
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>
> p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202
>
> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
> delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of
> this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Vince,
> You'll want to  register with them and get the "special number". You'll
> also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago and
> last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has been my
> go to for several years.
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hello
> Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't
> worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing
> another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the
> middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago
> there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech
> support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't
> actually get to tech support.
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,
>
> Vince McClellan
>
> Energy Design
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>
> p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202
>
> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
> delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of
> this email is strictly prohibited.
>
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>
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
>
> Morningstar Electric
>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Amos:



At the risk of stating the obvious:  The batteries have to be ready to
accept maximum charge.  They need to be in good condition and fully
discharged.  Max charge amps will occur only briefly then the charge rate
will start to taper.  Your charging settings need to be correct including
temperature compensation.  Any other charge inputs need to be disabled
during testing, such as solar, wind or hydro.



Check for THD on the generator output.  If the waveform deviates much from
sinusoidal the inherent power will be reduced.  Radians have been known to
instigate high THD rates on generator feeds during charging, especially in
Generator input mode.  Trying the Support mode is good advice.



(We had this case

a while back.  Recently a random person called to relate he had similar
problems and found our case study.  He installed a capacitor (20mFd?) on
the generator leads and the THD decreased significantly.  I have not tried
this.)



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Amos Post via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2023 12:23 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Amos Post
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging



Hello wrenches,



We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no
Optics).  We are having some with charging from the generator, as the
generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC)
when charging through the Radian.  It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we
have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps.  The
house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging.  The system is at
2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference.

The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while
charging.



Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated.



Thanks,

Amos



   Amos Post
   Integrity Energy
  W 802.763.7023
   C 802.291.2188
ienergyVT.com 

Facebook 
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[RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
think this definition needs to be clarified.



Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
these diagrams come through):





A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC
coupled.



Here is an AC-coupled system:





What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging.



Do we have consensus on this definition?



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?



I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
from each of the manufacturers:



Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “*A full AC
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is
limited.”*



EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4
inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed
level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is
pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI&ab_channel=EG4Electronics>.



Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for
AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual*:  It is
forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  *That is
because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.



So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter
inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output.
In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled
battery charging.



I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery
charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output
frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a work-around,
not a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear
there is little control over battery charging voltage.  These systems do
not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can.



When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this
article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>



There are limited advantages to AC coupling:



·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This
is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.



·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided,
so I would hesitate to recommend this.



In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is
a crude affair.  I am not a fan.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I’m going to both agree and disagree



Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is
correct.



Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac
coupling into the inverter directly.

Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.



And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not
designed for ac coupling.

Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any
internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge.



Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have  frequently shift which works with
newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While
creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz.





Jay











On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Friends:



I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
think this definition needs to be clarified.



Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
these diagrams come through):







A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC
coupled.



Here is an AC-coupled system:







What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
careful consideration to avoid batte

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

or codes etc. remotely through
Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one
brand.



So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but these
days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not all of
which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system.



Thanks,

Kienan





*Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution*

*maxfieldso...@hotmail.com *

*(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*

*www.distribution.solar*
--

*From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM
*To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Jerry Shafer 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with
outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and
charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a
genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the
any DC side connection.

Funtimes



On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jay:



I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?



I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
from each of the manufacturers:



Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “*A full AC
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is
limited.”*



EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4
inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed
level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is
pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI&ab_channel=EG4Electronics>.



Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for
AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual*:  It is
forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  *That is
because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.



So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter
inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output.
In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled
battery charging.



I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery
charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output
frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a work-around,
not a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear
there is little control over battery charging voltage.  These systems do
not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can.



When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this
article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>



There are limited advantages to AC coupling:



·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This
is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.



·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided,
so I would hesitate to recommend this.



In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is
a crude affair.  I am not a fan.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I’m going to both agree and disagree



Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is
correct.



Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac
coupling into the inverter directly.

Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.



And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not
de

Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

George:



Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same
as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not modifying the manufactured
assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance.  By
appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* George McClellan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC
interpretation/guidance?



Team;



With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the
limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar
derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will
exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I understand that the
homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module
cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger?  Any guidance or
reference material would be greatly appreciated.



Thx,



George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC

330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA

Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104

www.recgroup.com | george.mcclel...@recgroup.com 




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[RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI
(as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power
Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control
over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.



I have documented my research here
.
There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.



By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
integrator that wants that knowledge.



Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
someone someday…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.

However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.

The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.
>
> Jay
>
> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
> charger over under charge issue.
> Fun times
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>
>>
>>
>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>
>>
>>
>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>
>>
>>
>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have documented my research here
>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
>> just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>> someone someday…
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
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>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I think that is what usually happens.  During one occurrence 2 of the 5
batteries did shut down.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:08 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI
AC-coupled system



Interesting

The high voltage disconnect is 58.4v.

Reconnect is 54.4v.



Maybe if the spike is fast enough the inverter trips off before the battery
shuts off?



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 2:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Jay:



Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.



However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.



The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
gets too high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Regarding the SI Inverters, for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
charger over under charge issue.

Fun times



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI
(as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power
Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control
over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.



I have documented my research here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.



By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
integrator that wants that knowledge.



Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
someone someday…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



There are a lot of misconceptions about AC Coupling in the industry.  I
think you may have fallen victim to one:



When you are feeding AC power backwards through a battery inverter, that
inverter cannot exert any control over the charging parameters.  You can
set bulk, absorption, float, EQ, any charge setting you can find, but if
your power source is AC-coupled (coming in through the out door), those
settings do not affect the charging at all.



Someone please slap me if I am wrong on this.



Those settings do apply if you have an AC source like a generator or grid
that is connected to an AC *input*.   We cannot connect grid-tied inverters
to any input because AC inputs do not create a mini-grid.



Furthermore, if you set a Sunny Island for battery type “Ext BMS”, you
cannot adjust those settings.  Pressing the buttons elicits wonky
responses. Pressing up arrow jumps to zeros…  Pressing the down arrow can
reduce settings but they will not be saved.  I have seen this and while
Fortress cannot replicate this in the lab, they have heard this reported.
(This Ext-BMS setting is only available with the latest firmware and by
initiating New battery or New system in the quick programming function.)



Until this moment I did not realize that this is another reason Closed loop
on a

Sunny Island is a non-starter:  If you can’t set charge parameters for
generator or grid battery charging then you have a system that cannot be
set to charge batteries from AC sources with precision.  If closed loop
does not work for this reason, and open loop does not track the critical
SOC values, then we may be out of options.  Maybe this is why SMA will not
talk to anyone with lithium batteries.



Hm…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Bailey [mailto:k...@abundantsolar.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:05 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI
AC-coupled system



I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop
SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that
Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo
(220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read.  I think I
ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation.



I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high,
activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting
sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the
SI, which then...



Cheers,



Kirk Bailey

k...@abundantsolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jay:



Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.



However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.



The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
charger over under charge issue.

Fun times



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on re

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to
> eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before
> can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this?
>
> Mahalo,
>
>
> Roland Shackelford
>
> President / Owner
>
> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162
>
> Office 808.775.7410
>
> Mobile 808.938.9239
>
> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc.
> <https://www.renewablenergy.com/>
>
> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust,
> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru
>
> On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
> charger over under charge issue.
> Fun times
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>
>>
>>
>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>
>>
>>
>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>
>>
>>
>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have documented my research here
>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
>> just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>> someone someday…
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Correction: 2.2k. Sorry for the confusion, my memory sucks.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:41 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> 2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few.
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to
>> eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before
>> can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this?
>>
>> Mahalo,
>>
>>
>> Roland Shackelford
>>
>> President / Owner
>>
>> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162
>>
>> Office 808.775.7410
>>
>> Mobile 808.938.9239
>>
>> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc.
>> <https://www.renewablenergy.com/>
>>
>> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust,
>> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
>> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
>> charger over under charge issue.
>> Fun times
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have documented my research here
>>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I
>>> am just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>>> someone someday…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-

[RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We are installing an off-grid power system in an attached garage with VRLA
batteries (UnigyII).  I need to show compliance with California Residential
Code section R328.7.  That code language is below:



*R328.7 Fire detection.*

Rooms and areas within dwelling units, basements and attached garages in
which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance
with Section R314. A heat detector, listed and interconnected to the smoke
alarms, shall be installed in locations within dwelling units and attached
garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing.

[SFMJ ESS installed in Group R-3 and townhomes shall comply with the
following:

1. Rooms and areas within dwellings units, sleeping units, basements and
attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke
alarms in accordance with Section R314.

2. A listed heat alarm interconnected to the smoke alarms shall be
installed in locations within dwelling units, sleeping units and attached
garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing.



R314 is the language about how where to install interconnected smoke
detectors.



The home is already sheet-rocked and painted.  Does anyone have any idea
how I can comply?



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



The Guardian app does not provide any historical data.  Fortress says they
are working on that.  They claim that on request they can provide
historical data but the one time I asked there was an hours-long gap in the
data at the exact time I needed.  Maybe Rose Mary Woods’ incarnation is
working for them.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 6, 2023 9:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Kirk Herander
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring



Yep, I found this out when I installed my first Fortress Evault / Envy
inverter combo last month.



What was also a bit different at first is the fact there are -2- different
apps: the Guardian gateway app and the Envy inverter app. I bought the
guardian thinking it was the only way to see the system remotely, but this
is not true IF you've installed the Envy inverter also. The limitation of
no "fleet" monitoring is puzzling.



But now I'm glad there's a unique app for the inverter. The inverter app is
much more detailed and allows most parameters to be tweaked remotely. The
Guardian app id for basic system monitoring only.



So the single-user per app has worked out OK. My customer uses the
at-a-glance Guardian app, and I use the Envy app for more detailed
monitoring and programming.



On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 12:11 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Here is an official communication from Fortress that we received recently
when inquiring about monitoring Fortress batteries as an Installer.  Some
of you may find the info relevant.



-- Forwarded message -
From:  
Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:37 PM
Subject: Re:[## 5635 ##] Remote Monitoring Access
To: -@---.com



Hi -,



As of right now, the Guardian app is designed to be used by the end user
only and does not have "fleet management" capabilities as you have
described. This is a highly demanded feature so we are working on getting
this added by Q2 2024.



If you would like to view the info from their Guardian, you can use their
login info and log in using their credentials on your phone.



Best,

- --

Applications Engineer II

Fortress Power

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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Adam:



I have experienced the same scenario some years ago with an oval gateway.
We tried some filters but they did not help. We did not have an isolated
load center for the gateway.  I think the client bought a new lamp without
touch control.



You need to connect the gateway and inverter to an isolated load center so
you can put a filter on the feeder to that subpanel.



William



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *AE Solar via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* AE Solar
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker



Wrenches

We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps where
you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). It
seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights to
freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates as
normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a
dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We
isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers
on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house
is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it
happens everywhere.  Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this
happen to them?



I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also
interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap
lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might
be affected as well?



Adam
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:

I tried running 48 VDC muffin fans on battery voltage. They failed. I
switched to a Dc-Dc converter (12 or 24, can’t remember) from digi-key and
problem solved.

Point being battery voltage ranges may be too extreme for some components.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:08 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one
> to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank
> gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house.
>
> The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a
> small current with 48 VDC contacts.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Drake
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>
>
> --
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Howie:

Segregated load distribution. Simple, automatic.

I don’t get why they put 200 amp pass-through on an inverter that can only
produce 62.5 amps.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:37 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a  Sol-Ark15k
> battery backup residential system.  It's been quite a few years since I've
> set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark
> will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel -
> all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side.
>
> What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically
> shed loads when the grid is down,  either sequentially as the battery bank
> drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of
> equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark?
> I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option
> that would work well specifically with it.
> I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long
> as it is automated.  All automated ideas/options appreciated.
> Thanks!
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jeremy:



We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons specified here
.
If you find a new string inverter in the SMA lineup, you might want to
check to see if they have resolved some of the shortcomings.



I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than Solar
Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown.  Careful reading of the
NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS unless the PV
feeders run to a building with the sole use being to house solar
equipment.  Having said that, I would imagine that if an inverter were
mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for RSS could be avoided.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters



What are you wrenches that used to install the SB-41 units sourcing
now? Looks like there is a new model on their website





Jeremy Rodriguez

Solar Installation / Design

All Solar, Inc.

1453 M St.

Penrose Colorado 81240



Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.

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[RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was starting
every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and there was
decent, albeit winter, sunshine.



While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the battery
voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period as set
in the battery charging settings.



Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be
possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings.  I do not allow
FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely.  However I had no
better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug
it.  There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by
this.



I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites.  All of my
normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are
exhibiting the same problem.



I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for,
right?  I made a little web page about this issue to easily share
information and graphics.  Here is the link

.



This issue has serious implications for my clients.  The charging profiles
seen are not good for these batteries.  Eventually the deficiencies in the
charging regime will shorten the life spans of very expensive batteries.



I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be interested
if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries.



I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect.  I would be
interested in any shared experience.  Maybe some of you could glance at
your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing.  All input
is very much appreciated.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

teryEngineering>
> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
> destroy this message and all copies.
> --
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 4:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> William,
>>
>> This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing.  I
>> also don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging.  I went to
>> investigate a site yesterday and figured this one out.
>>
>> It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low
>> side.  This was a Lithium site and so there was not significant absorb time
>> and that 1 V is very significant.  The solar controller and Radian were
>> calibrated properly so it looked on Optics as though we were never getting
>> full but we were.
>>
>> The Flexnet is a real mixed bag.  Its great to have the info but I don't
>> like the difficulty of calibration (loose nuts in the casing) and that the
>> Mate defaults to using its voltage meter.  We try to calibrate these as
>> closely as possible.
>>
>> One thing I've noticed when I'm following up others work is that the
>> majority have incorrectly wired/programmed Flexnet DC.  They will not have
>> the appropriate shunts activated and so the system constantly reads 100%.
>> A lot of these systems are installed using Outback prewired panels (Im not
>> sure who builds these).
>>
>> If your customer is savvy, you can have them unplug the cable from the
>> Hub that feeds the Flexnet.  If the voltage changes significantly, then the
>> calibration could be the issue.
>>
>> Please keep us in the loop on what you are finding.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 9:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was
>>> starting every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and
>>> there was decent, albeit winter, sunshine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the
>>> battery voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period
>>> as set in the battery charging settings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be
>>> possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings.  I do not allow
>>> FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely.  However I had no
>>> better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug
>>> it.  There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by
>>> this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites.  All of my
>>> normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are
>>> exhibiting the same problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for,
>>> right?  I made a little web page about this issue to easily share
>>> information and graphics.  Here is the link
>>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/38-Radian_Charging/Outback_Charging.html>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This issue has serious implications for my clients.  The charging
>>> profiles seen are not good for these batteries.  Eventually the
>>> deficiencies in the charging regime will shorten the life spans of very
>>> expensive batteries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be
>>> interested if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am hoping th

[RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker/Musings on PV disconnecting/Tigo warning

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am not familiar with the inverter cited and I am not going to take the
time to research it.  There are too many options this day to keep up!



If this system requires load disconnecting, a touch safe fuse holder is not
the correct device.  They are not rated for load break.  A work-around is
to plainly indicate the inverter AC disconnect should be activated or the
inverter turned off before opening the fuse disconnect.



Also, please consider not shopping at Amazon.  They have a terrible record
regarding employee safety.  PV-Cables carries this fuse holder at a
competitive price and they are great people to work with. Here is a link:
https://pv-cables.com/product/littelfuse-spf-solarfuse-holder/.  There are
many other solar vendors that have these and that could use your shopping
dollars.



Below are some related subjects I have been pondering:



RSS as PV disconnecting means:



I have been whining at great length about having to install RSS MLPE on
off-grid installations.  My most pathetic whining has been about having to
install these on ground-mount arrays.  My understanding is that RSS is
supposed to protect fire fighters when they respond to structure fires.
How does an RSS system on a ground mount even apply here?



However, I do find it handy to have an easy way to de-energize PV circuits
so I can safely work in combiners and recombiners.  This makes me wonder:
Is module level RSS equipment suitable to act as PV disconnecting means?



Tigo Transmitter-Where should it be installed? And a warning:



I like to be able to measure PV circuits when connected and disconnected.
If the Tigo RSS transmitter donut is installed down-stream of the PV
disconnecting means then open circuit measurements are not possible.  If
you open the disconnect, the keep-alive signal goes away and you can’t
measure the PV string.



I got a surprise when doing just this a few days ago.  I have two rows of
PV racks and a combiner on each row.  If I want injection of Tigo
keep-alive signal upstream of the combiner breakers, I need to install a
transmitter in both combiners.  I looped the feeders to the far combiner
through the near combiner. The Tigo donut in the near combiner was near
those looped feeders and induced enough signal in the feeders that the RSS
MLPE in the next rack were switched on.  I got a nasty 200 VDC shock out of
the deal.   See photo below.





Automatic RSS:



As noted above, everything I have read about RSS is that it is designed for
the safety of fire fighters.   RSS is a manually activated system.  Someone
needs to find and push or twist the disconnect button.  If this is not done
the RSS provides no protection.  Why could we not require AFCI and GFDI
equipped inverters and charge controllers to provide a contact closure in
case of either fault that could easily be wired into the RSS system to
activate the RSS automatically?  Seems like a no-brainer to me.



True PV safety for fire fighters and the public:



I was watching a webinar

on UL 3741 recently.  In it the presenter early on makes the claim that PV
systems are “inherently safe” (8:45 in the video).  I think this is wrong.
String PV systems are inherently *unsafe*, for two reasons:  1. PV panels
have no off switch.  If the sun is shining the panels are creating power,
at potentially fatal levels.  2. PV panels cannot trip OCPD.  PV panels are
finite in ampacity and we need the OCPD to be rated at above the available
current.  In case of a fault an AFCI or GFDI equipped inverter or charge
controller can detect those faults and shut off, but the fault still exists
and is still being fed power.  These concerns apply to PV string systems.
Micro-inverter systems could be argued as being inherently safe.



To get to true PV safety, we need to find a way to shut off power at the
source.  If we can trigger MLPE RSS to shut off in the case of detectable
faults, we are much closer to the holy grail of true safety.



The interconnection of AFCI and GFDI inverters and charge controllers with
RSS is one way to achieve this goal.  This should be easy to achieve-- it
requires only a contact closure be built into the electronics.  Outback’s
FM100 charge controllers have a contact closure that can be programmed to
open in the case of an error, but not the errors we need.  So close…



Thinking this through further, why not build AFCI and GFDI protection right
into MLPE electronics?  That way in the case of a fault the power is shut
off at the source.  Maybe Solar Edge does this already.  Does anyone know?



UL3741:



I have just started studying UL 3741.  From what I have learned so far, I
am not convinced this is the right direction.  For one, the standard
upgrades the allowed voltage exposure to 160 VDC.  Number two, the standard
is written only to protect fire fighters.   This leaves out protecting the
public.  This includes kids climbing on a ground

Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group


image002.emz
Description: Binary data


image006.emz
Description: Binary data
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



EVs apparently have their own problems with metering:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/



William





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2024 9:52 AM
*To:* William Miller
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens
of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage
and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge,
effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign
ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably
accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based
on the same technology as an EV battery.



I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just
unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the
manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we
can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place.



-end of rant-



Jason





On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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[RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Pals:



Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?



https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka



We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
lead-acid batteries.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Good question about rain shedding.

My questions for Sky:  were the installations evaluated by a structural
engineer to calculate ability to withstand wind effects and snow load?
What roof anchors were recommended?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 7:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> If the array covers the rain gutters, doesn't that prevent the gutters
> from catching rain? Doesn't the edge of the extended modules form a drip
> edge, where water will not be diverted by the gutters, but hit the ground
> directly?
>
> Will the gutters be accessible for future maintenance?
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-12 11:02, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>
> Hi, in what way?  The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are rated
> for the load.
> On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> How do you deal with the rain gutters?
>
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
> Media & Communication Action Project
>
> https://m-cap.org/
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the
> last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code
> changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and
> oftentimes disallow cantilevering.
>
> Sky Sims
> Https://EcologicalSystems.org
> 732-462-3858
>
> On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and
> I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to
> happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products.  Chris
>
>
>
> On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it was
> that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design.
> They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the
> ground.  This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where
> skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air.  This may be
> what is happening in the image you shared.
>
>
>
> What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels.
> Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not
> clear that the outline is actually situated over a building.  It almost
> looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline.
>
>
>
> The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any
> obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker
> <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sun-seeker-tracker-surveyor/id330247123>
> app for IOS for the shading analysis.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is a larger snip of the situation.
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Label says overhang from upper roof.
>
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there
> was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That
> lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the
> array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet.
>
> 
>
>
>
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Peter:



I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries.  There have been
issues, I am sure many of them self-induced.  Fortress has been overall
very responsive.  There have been a few days where I could not get through
to technical support but with persistence I always manage.  Fortress has
offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and
the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their
bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after
replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not
showing accurate #’s,  ). While support has been, well supportive, the
issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a
customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings
to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or
ideas appreciated.



Thx
peter Giroux

American Solar

Norcross Ga
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



Here is a link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html>
to the study.



The web page needs to be updated with this information:



There are two settings to be changed in the Sunny Boy Inverters:  Backup
mode and Default.  See Below:





I had set the default to OFF_Grid but I had not set the Backup Mode to On
All.  It was in Off.



There is a possibility changing the Backup Mode setting may fix the
Frequency Shift Power Control problem that is the root of this dilemma.
There have not been enough sunny days to see the PV bring SOC up to the
level of near 100% where the problem exhibits.  As soon as the weather gets
sunnier and the days get longer I will see what happens and report back.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, February 15, 2024 5:50 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Hi william



Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had?



Thx

Jay



On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Peter:



I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries.  There have been
issues, I am sure many of them self-induced.  Fortress has been overall
very responsive.  There have been a few days where I could not get through
to technical support but with persistence I always manage.  Fortress has
offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and
the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their
bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after
replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not
showing accurate #’s,  ). While support has been, well supportive, the
issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a
customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings
to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or
ideas appreciated.



Thx
peter Giroux

American Solar

Norcross Ga

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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:



I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.



I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
could be obtained remotely for better analysis.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment



I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.

There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?

As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.

What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake



---





On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over



On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,



I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).



My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.



I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to rep

[RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time.  I have asked
Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not
customers.



I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation.
The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows
this:





There is only one link to click and it takes you to this:



Again, you have only one choice.  The next step prompts to enter a MAC
address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will
not let the customer proceed.



I have dealt with this for years.  Some customers stumble onto the solution
but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an
existing system.  Anyone know what I am missing?



Thanks in advance.



William







Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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