Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[Glenn Burt]

Hi Dave,

I have given this type of class to the Southern VT Fire Academy for the past 
couple of years, combining classroom powepoint and example labels, racking and 
modules with field trips to several  PV installations in the Rutland area.
I have been told that fire departments do not pull utility meters, they call 
GMP and a utility worker responds and handles that.
Don't forget to cover SHW and other solar based obstacles and gizmos they may 
be exposed to on a rooftop-no one else is exposing them to these systems either.
Also, lithium batteries are more common in motor vehicles today, and they 
probably already have some training in that regard.
Good luck!

Glenn Burt

-Original Message-
From: "Dave Palumbo" 
Sent: ‎9/‎19/‎2016 22:13
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

Wrenches,

 

I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our
local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around
my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro,
different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators -
diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we
will visit  a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no
battery back-up).

 

. I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall
battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in
Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I
could use some advice for the fire fighters.

. Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with
back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's?

. There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally
recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in
power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar
with?

 

Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have
a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer
squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of
serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home
on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from
utility power. 

 

As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for
residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It
can be a little scary, but always interesting.

 

Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with
solar electric systems that you recommend?

 

Thanks for your time,

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home

 

 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[dan]

Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself and the public'.. In that order. HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the area based on the threat identified.  i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is knowing the difference.As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than not, the home owner knows what's what.. Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep up with them'.Hope this helps. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: "Dave Palumbo" 
Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 

Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit  a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). · I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters.· Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's?· There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power.  As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC462 Solar Way DriveHyde Park, VT 05655802-371-8678 cell802-888-4917 home  ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: htt

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Chris Daum]

Peerless Premier (www.premierrange.com) has offered battery-ignition ranges
now for about two years -- no AC power required.  They need an 8-pack of
double A cells, and can also be match-lit if you don't want to fool with the
batteries.
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com 
  


  _  

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven



I just installed a system for some folks that found this range with no glow
bar.  The oven light and the spark ignition each take 2, 9 volt batteries so
zero outside electric power source.

http://uniqueoffgrid.com/product/unique-elite-30-off-grid-propane-range/

Those Canadians

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric

Bill Battagin, Owner

4291 Nelson St.

Taylorsville, CA 95983

530.284.7849

CA Lic 874049

www.frenergy.net




On 9/19/2016 4:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Solid advice from both Ray and Allan. 

 

Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not
the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier
would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My
6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40's works great, and will
likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn
thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I've never weighed it.

 

Brian

AEE Solar

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

 

Kristopher,
Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to
last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost
certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues.
If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier
(www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago,
they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed
for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven.
Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed
burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. 
Allan

Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell



 

On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Thanks Ray,

This is a circa 2002 inverter.  I may just tell them to go to a pilot light
stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know).

Kris

 

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters < 
r...@solarray.com> wrote:

Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years.  As soon as I
read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe.  The good old DR
inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back
in the 90s.  I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though
most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature
failures.  I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the
extra harmonic distortion.  Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably
would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC
connection at all.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
  303 505-8760

On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the
last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by
a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they
get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the
appliance company supplied.

Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry
with the modified sine wave output)?

Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably
Whirlpool)? 

Thanks tons,

Kris



-- 

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
  www.legacysolar.com
  715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE





___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
 
List Address:  
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
Change listserver email address & settings:
 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
 
List-Archive:

http://www.mail-archive.co

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[Dave Palumbo]

Thanks Dan,

 

Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the 
responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder.

 

I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the 
specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to 
spray this when needed? 

 

Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at 
night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight 
generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires?

 

Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an 
inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have 
cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming 
shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off 
quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut 
down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would 
need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, 
and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - 
fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend 
that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of 
the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should 
have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by 
shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required.

 

Dave Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

Hyde Park, VT

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

 

Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to 
address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off 
Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in 
subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that 
training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself 
and the public'.. In that order.

 

HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some 
industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the 
area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's 
not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a 
hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still 
knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the 
best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is 
knowing the difference.

 

As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for 
disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't 
know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. 
Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative 
Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many 
of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. 
and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, 
Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.

 

As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the 
array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I 
like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to 
temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, 
they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.

 

I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years 
is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, 
well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed 
more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems 
and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than 
not, the home owner knows what's what.. 

 

Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep 
up with them'.

 

Hope this helps. db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
  www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44

 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: "Dave Palumbo" <  palumbo1...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <  
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Wrenches,

 

I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local 
volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour th

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Drake]

We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does 
anyone have one they could send me?


Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/


At 07:25 PM 9/19/2016, you wrote:

Kristopher,
Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is 
likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. 
It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues.
If range replacement remains the only option, talk with 
Peerless-Premier 
(www.premierrange.com). As of my last 
contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised 
models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace 
mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family 
home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) 
with electric igniters and no glow bar.

Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Thanks Ray,

This is a circa 2002 inverter.  I may just tell them to go to a 
pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know).


Kris

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters 
<r...@solarray.com> wrote:
Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years.  As 
soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I 
cringe.  The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own 
shop on one for several years back in the 90s.  I for the most part 
quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on 
the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures.  I would 
attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra 
harmonic distortion.  Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they 
probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list 
with no AC connection at all.


R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760
On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven 
in the last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model 
WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an 
off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no 
oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied.


Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the 
circuitry with the modified sine wave output)?


Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true 
(preferably Whirlpool)?


Thanks tons,
Kris

--
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE



___

List sponsored by Redwood Alliance


List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org



Change listserver email address & settings:

http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html



List rules & etiquette:

www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm


Check out or update participant bios:

www.members.re-wrenches.org

___ List sponsored by 
Redwood Alliance List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Change listserver email address & settings: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
List rules & etiquette: 
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
Check out or update participant bios: 
www.members.re-wrenches.org


--
Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail 
Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 
715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin 
Master Electrician BSEE


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wre

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Kristopher Schmid]

Thanks all.

I have a Peerless Premier LP stove in my own house, but i am grid tied so i
was not sure how they behave with dirtier waves.  Good to know that they
are so bulletproof.  I am guessing that the appliance shop will not be
happy with going outside of their usual brands, but that seems to be the
direction you are all suggesting.  I will make my strong recommendation and
see how it flies.

Thanks,
Kris

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Chris Daum  wrote:

> Peerless Premier (www.premierrange.com) has offered battery-ignition
> ranges now for about two years -- no AC power required.  They need an
> 8-pack of double A cells, and can also be match-lit if you don't want to
> fool with the batteries.
>
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *frenergy
> *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 9:09 PM
>
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven
>
> I just installed a system for some folks that found this range with no
> glow bar.  The oven light and the spark ignition each take 2, 9 volt
> batteries so zero outside electric power source.
>
> http://uniqueoffgrid.com/product/unique-elite-30-off-grid-propane-range/
>
> Those Canadians
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net
>
>  On 9/19/2016 4:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:
>
> Solid advice from both Ray and Allan.
>
>
>
> Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not
> the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier
> would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My
> 6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40’s works great, and will
> likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn
> thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I’ve never weighed it.
>
>
>
> Brian
>
> AEE Solar
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
> *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven
>
>
>
> Kristopher,
> Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely
> to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost
> certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues.
> If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier (
> www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago,
> they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed
> for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven.
> Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed
> burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar.
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> *al...@sindelarsolar.com* 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>
>
>
> On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:
>
> Thanks Ray,
>
> This is a circa 2002 inverter.  I may just tell them to go to a pilot
> light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know).
>
> Kris
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters <*r...@solarray.com*
> > wrote:
>
> Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years.  As soon as
> I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe.  The good old DR
> inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years
> back in the 90s.  I for the most part quit selling them though, as even
> though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature
> failures.  I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the
> extra harmonic distortion.  Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably
> would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC
> connection at all.
>
> R.Ray Walters
>
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>
> Licensed Master Electrician
>
> Solar Design Engineer
>
> *303 505-8760* <303%20505-8760>
>
> On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:
>
> Hi Wrenches,
>
> I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the
> last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by
> a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they
> get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the
> appliance company supplied.
>
> Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the
> circuitry with the modified sine wave output)?
>
> Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably
> Whirlpool)?
>
> Thanks tons,
>
> Kris
>
>
> --
>
> Shine On!
>
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Allan Sindelar]

Drake,
As far as I know these were never made available outside of Trace/Xantrex.
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 9/20/2016 9:31 AM, Drake wrote:
We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone 
have one they could send me?


Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Kris,

Where did you source your DR control boards?

Thanks,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

On 9/19/2016 5:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in 
the last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 
powered by a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i 
recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this 
was the unit that the appliance company supplied.


Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the 
circuitry with the modified sine wave output)?


Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true 
(preferably Whirlpool)?


Thanks tons,
Kris

--
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
www.legacysolar.com 
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[Glenn Burt]

I suggest you review the testing UL did regarding firefighting and PV, 
specifically their tests involving the use of foam, before jumping on that 
bandwagon...

-Original Message-
From: "Dave Palumbo" 
Sent: ‎9/‎20/‎2016 10:25
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

Thanks Dan,

 

Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the 
responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder.

 

I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the 
specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to 
spray this when needed? 

 

Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at 
night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight 
generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires?

 

Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an 
inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have 
cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming 
shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off 
quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut 
down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would 
need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, 
and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - 
fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend 
that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of 
the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should 
have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by 
shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required.

 

Dave Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

Hyde Park, VT

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

 

Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to 
address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off 
Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in 
subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that 
training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself 
and the public'.. In that order.

 

HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some 
industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the 
area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's 
not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a 
hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still 
knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the 
best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is 
knowing the difference.

 

As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for 
disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't 
know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. 
Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative 
Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many 
of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. 
and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, 
Identify and if it's beyond their training, run.

 

As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the 
array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I 
like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to 
temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, 
they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros.

 

I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years 
is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, 
well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed 
more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems 
and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than 
not, the home owner knows what's what.. 

 

Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep 
up with them'.

 

Hope this helps. db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
  www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44

 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: "Dave Palumbo" <  palumb

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Kristopher Schmid]

Bill,

It's the stove control board that fried.  Sorry if that was unclear.

Kris

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Bill Loesch 
wrote:

> Hi Kris,
>
> Where did you source your DR control boards?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094
>
> On 9/19/2016 5:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:
>
> Hi Wrenches,
>
> I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the
> last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by
> a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they
> get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the
> appliance company supplied.
>
> Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the
> circuitry with the modified sine wave output)?
>
> Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably
> Whirlpool)?
>
> Thanks tons,
> Kris
>
> --
> Shine On!
>
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 864 Clam Falls Trail
> Frederic, WI 54837
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> [image: Avast logo] 
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com 
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Kevin Pegg]

I have a copy of the official service and diagnostics manual for DR series. 
It's a 1.5" thick binder full of fold out legal pages, addendums, etc. Not the 
easiest thing to scan. Is there something particular you are looking for?

Kevin

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Drake
Sent: September-20-16 8:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone have one 
they could send me?

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/


At 07:25 PM 9/19/2016, you wrote:

Kristopher,
Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to 
last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost certainly 
the crude waveform that's causing the issues.
If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier 
(www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with 
them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards 
that were designed for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow 
bars for the oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front 
with sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar.
Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Thanks Ray,

This is a circa 2002 inverter.  I may just tell them to go to a pilot light 
stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know).

Kris

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters 
mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:
Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years.  As soon as I 
read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe.  The good old DR 
inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back in 
the 90s.  I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though most 
equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures.  I 
would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra harmonic 
distortion.  Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably would be better 
going to something older form Craig's list with no AC connection at all.

R.Ray Walters



CTO, Solarray, Inc



Nabcep Certified PV Installer,



Licensed Master Electrician



Solar Design Engineer



303

505-8760
On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi Wrenches,
I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the last 
few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a 
Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an 
LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company 
supplied.
Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry 
with the modified sine wave output)?
Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably 
Whirlpool)?
Thanks tons,
Kris
--
Shine On!
Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE



___



List sponsored by Redwood Alliance





List Address:



RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org





Change listserver email address & settings:







http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org





List-Archive:



http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html





List rules & etiquette:





www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm





Check out or update participant bios:





www.members.re-wrenches.org


___ List sponsored by Redwood 
Alliance List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Change listserver email address & settings: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
List rules & etiquette: 
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
Check out or update participant bios: 
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Shi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[Charles Picard]

Hi Dave,

These are some great questions you're asking, and you've prompted some 
interesting responses. I've been partnered up with a career firefighter for the 
past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you:

Review the NFPA's recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you can 
find that free training here 
https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901

The training is based on this research: 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ul.com%2Fglobal%2Fdocuments%2Fofferings%2Findustries%2Fbuildingmaterials%2Ffireservice%2FPV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEHXYPQ5_R0p-_QDW8fRvEYFx1xUg&sig2=W0zmY8dwh3D2EXk1XucXMA

That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you can 
still "Put the wet stuff on the red stuff" but you need to understand the rules 
you're playing by.  This study does address how arrays may be de-energized, 
you'll notice that foam does not work and should not be used.

You'll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is woefully 
lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you're going to tackle the 
subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of construction and 
chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations with exploding 
hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these are apples to 
oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they have published an 
Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. They have also released 
results of a burn-test study that is very informative.

There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss has 
some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and IREC to 
create some online training content that looks very good.

Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.


Charles Picard
Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity
---
t:518.380.6628
m:  508.965.0144

RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click 
here to view our complete 
list of license numbers by state.

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Warranty Issues

[peter.parrish]

I am trying to recall exactly to what sellers and installers were obligated 
under the CSI. And was this tied to the rebates for PV modules (which no longer 
exist)?

- A “3-R” warranty on the first ten years for the PV modules  and then a 
voluntary additional 15-25 year-warrantee (pro-rated), depending on manu.
- A R&R warrantee on the inverters for the first 5 years, and then upped to ten 
years R&R at some point in time (when?)
- A warranty of 10 years on workmanship
- I further remember that the labor associated with the replacement/repair or 
PV modules and inverters was a burden borne by the installer, but in most cases 
there was a cost reimbursement schedule from the manu.

All comments are welcome, and I would especially like to be able to cite 
chapter and verse in the CSI/CPUC documents.

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108


Sent from Mail for Windows 10


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] schematics (was Re: Issue with DR1512 and oven)

[toddcory]

while we are seeking schematics, id love one for the array technology tracker's 
control circuit. im pretty good with a soldering iron and could probably bench 
repair these for my old customers... probably doable w/o the schematic, but 
much easier with.
 
thanks,
 
todd
mount shasta energy services
 
 
 


On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:11am, "Kevin Pegg" 
 said:




I have a copy of the official service and diagnostics manual for DR series. 
It's a 1.5" thick binder full of fold out legal pages, addendums, etc. Not the 
easiest thing to scan. Is there something particular you are looking for?
 
Kevin
 


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Drake
Sent: September-20-16 8:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven
 
We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone have one 
they could send me?

 Thank you,

 Drake 

 Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
 OH License 44810
 CO License 3773
 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
 740-448-7328
[ http://athens-electric.com/
 ]( http://athens-electric.com/ )


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class

[dan]

Hey Charles, would you direct me to your reference "you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used."? I've found reference in this and other articles that states roughly 'like tarps, foam can not be relied upon to completely reduce array voltage to zero', but no where can I find the statement that states for the average Fire Fighter, a heavy foam is not a fast, safe and effective method of reducing array voltage in a PV array in an emergency situation - using equipment readily available. IMHO 20VDC is much preferable to 480VDC.Thank You. db Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class
From: Charles Picard 
Date: Tue, September 20, 2016 1:27 pm
To: "palumbo1...@gmail.com" 
Cc: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"


Hi Dave,   These are some great questions you’re asking, and you’ve prompted some interesting responses. I’ve been partnered up with a career firefighter for the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you:   Review the NFPA’s recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you can find that free training here  https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901   The training is based on this research:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url="">   That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you can still “Put the wet stuff on the red stuff” but you need to understand the rules you’re playing by.  This study does address how arrays may be de-energized, you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used.   You’ll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you’re going to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they have published an Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. They have also released results of a burn-test study that is very informative.   There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and IREC to create some online training content that looks very good.   Feel free to contact me directly with any questions.      Charles Picard  Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity  --- t:518.380.6628 m:  508.965.0144  RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here to view our complete list of license numbers by state.    ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org