[RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[Rebekah Hren]

Hi,
Wondering if anyone has insight into Code requirements for
securing/supporting PV wire behind the modules?

I am aware that USE-2 sends you to Section 334.30 requirements for Type NM
(12" from box, every 4.5 ').

However, I think this is totally bogus, for 2 reasons.
1) Section 338.10(B)(4)(b) that refers the NM article is titled "Branch
circuits or Feeders."  These are PV source and output circuits, not branch
circuits or feeders.

2) it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to secure the PV wire within 12" of the module
junction box for many modules, especially in landscape wiring, without
causing more harm than good, too tight a bending radius, stress on
conductors.

334.40(B) maybe leaves a little wiggle room for concealed spaces in
structures where it is impracticable to support.

My big problem here is that both requirements of 334.30 are useless or
harmful to PV systems. 12" to the box is often impossible, and 4.5" feet is
too long to go without any support behind the array!!! I just noticed there
was a proposal in 2017 to Codify the 334.40 requirements for PV cables and
so I guess I only have myself to blame for not writing a better proposal at
this point.

Rebekah
-- 
Tel: 336.266.8800
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85
NC Licensed Electrical Contractor
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[RE-wrenches] Back sheet covering

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a product or method to hide the white back sheets of
modules mounted on a pole mount? I envision some type of taunt fabric
almost like a shade cloth that will darken it up.

Thanks
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Back sheet covering

[Taiyoko Sadewic]

Mac,
Yes, we used a silicon based paint and covered the UL label with a
detachable sticker. We got the manufacturer to approve it.  The silicon
paint did not appear to interfere with the cooling of the module in our
very limited testing. Screening with solarscrim would probably also work
and accomplish two purposes, protecting conductors and screening the color.

Good luck.


On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
> Does anyone know of a product or method to hide the white back sheets of
> modules mounted on a pole mount? I envision some type of taunt fabric
> almost like a shade cloth that will darken it up.
>
> Thanks
>
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-- 
*Taiyoko Sadewic*

*Chief Financial OfficerChief Technical Officer*
*POSITIVE ENERGY SOLAR*
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

[Tom Duffy]

Hi Rebekah

Many, not all, OutBack Distributors offer design and tech support as well to 
dealer/installers. In most cases they will be able to answer questions on a 
larger range of products as well.


Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
[Real-logo-X-195]
E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz
Panama Office: 507-6126-1253
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz

NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Rebekah Hren
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

Advice I often give to students in PV classes: if you are trying to decide 
between two similar pieces of equipment at a similar cost (rack, inverter, 
modules, whatever), try calling the tech support line to ask a technical 
question and see what happens. Does anyone answer and how quickly? If so does 
that person have a clue as to how to answer your question? If they don't know 
how quickly can they get you to someone who does? I know things wax and wane 
over time at any company, but you can sure learn a lot about a company calling 
the tech support line before you spec equipment.

I would just add that it's pretty amazing Midnite puts their tech support folks 
names, phone numbers and email addresses on their website. I don't think I've 
seen any other PV company do that.

Rebekah


On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:15 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Hi Peter,

I only had the option to leave a message and after about 1 hour on hold I did 
so. That was a week ago. I had not heard of calling at a specific hour. Is this 
something they suggest? Where did you hear of this 0700 calling time?

Larry


On Dec 8, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Peter Parrish 
mailto:peter.parr...@calsolareng.com>> wrote:

Phil Undercuffler has the title of Chief Technologist, Product Development – or 
something to that effect. I suggest not trying to reach him with 
run-of-the-mill issues, but if your want to engage him about future product 
development, or to get confirmation about utility issues, NEM 2.0, industry 
trends, etc. he is the best person at Outback Power to talk to. If you want to 
know more about how to program the Radian Series, he could point you to the 
right person.

I think a lot of problems with Outback can be traced to their off-grid history…

Has anyone tried to make a telecon appointment with Outback Tech Support: call 
them at 0700 h PT and ask to get a call back at a certain time later in the day?


-  Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter...@pobox.com


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--
Tel: 336.266.8800
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85
NC Licensed Electrical Contractor
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

[Tump]

> Many, not all, OutBack Distributors offer design and tech support,  that can 
> lead to questionable system design. I had a client discus a system that they 
> were getting from a distributor in LA that was NOT designed correctly for the 
> low temps here in maine. Be careful ...sometimes you DO get what you pay 
> for.
On Dec 9, 2015, at 10:12 AM, Tom Duffy wrote:

> Hi Rebekah
>  
> Many, not all, OutBack Distributors offer design and tech support as well to 
> dealer/installers. In most cases they will be able to answer questions on a 
> larger range of products as well.
>  
>  
> Kind regards
>  
> Tom Duffy
> Senior Solar Design Engineer
> 
> E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz
> Panama Office: 507-6126-1253
> Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
> International: 575-539-2111
> SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz
>  
> NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
> oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end 
> of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.
>  Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the 
> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
> contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Rebekah Hren
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:44 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?
>  
> Advice I often give to students in PV classes: if you are trying to decide 
> between two similar pieces of equipment at a similar cost (rack, inverter, 
> modules, whatever), try calling the tech support line to ask a technical 
> question and see what happens. Does anyone answer and how quickly? If so does 
> that person have a clue as to how to answer your question? If they don't know 
> how quickly can they get you to someone who does? I know things wax and wane 
> over time at any company, but you can sure learn a lot about a company 
> calling the tech support line before you spec equipment.  
>  
> I would just add that it's pretty amazing Midnite puts their tech support 
> folks names, phone numbers and email addresses on their website. I don't 
> think I've seen any other PV company do that. 
>  
> Rebekah
>  
>  
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:15 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>  wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>  
> I only had the option to leave a message and after about 1 hour on hold I did 
> so. That was a week ago. I had not heard of calling at a specific hour. Is 
> this something they suggest? Where did you hear of this 0700 calling time?
>  
> Larry
>  
> 
>  
> On Dec 8, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Peter Parrish  
> wrote:
>  
> Phil Undercuffler has the title of Chief Technologist, Product Development – 
> or something to that effect. I suggest not trying to reach him with 
> run-of-the-mill issues, but if your want to engage him about future product 
> development, or to get confirmation about utility issues, NEM 2.0, industry 
> trends, etc. he is the best person at Outback Power to talk to. If you want 
> to know more about how to program the Radian Series, he could point you to 
> the right person.
>  
> I think a lot of problems with Outback can be traced to their off-grid 
> history…
>  
> Has anyone tried to make a telecon appointment with Outback Tech Support: 
> call them at 0700 h PT and ask to get a call back at a certain time later in 
> the day?
>  
> -  Peter
> 
>  
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, SolarGnosis
> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
> Suite 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
> peter...@pobox.com
>  
> 
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> 
>  
> --
> Tel: 336.266.8800
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85
> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor
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> t...@swnl.net   www.SWNL.net
> 

[RE-wrenches] Battery degassing system

[William Miller]

Friends:

I inspected a mobile system recently that consisted of a set of vented
lead-acid batteries directly below a rack of Outback FX inverters and
Flexware cabinets.  The batteries were not covered.  They did have a dual
set of tubes connecting the caps.  When I asked about the possible safety
concerns of not isolating vented batteries from electronics I was informed
by the installer of the system that the batteries had a “watering and
degassing” system that “pushed” the gas to the outside through a “flame
arrester”.



I was curious about this because we have always isolated batteries from
electronics by building some sort of enclosure, usually at some expense.
If there is some sort of new system that prevents this need, I want to know
about it.  I looked on-line and called the experts I know and found no
knowledge of such a system.



Have any of you heard of such a thing?



I did discuss the necessity of isolating batteries and one vendor indicated
that the only requirement they have in this regards is to calculate the
volume of off-gassing and provide adequate air exchange.  This upsets some
foundational understanding I have that vented batteries require isolation.
I am really wondering if we are wasting time and money building enclosures
to protect batteries when not needed.



Thoughts or comments are gratefully accepted.



Sincerely,



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service???

[Michael Welch]

Hi Wrenches. Sandra Herrera contacted me and let me know that Lones has been 
temporarily unavailable to the Wrench list, and she asked me to post this on 
her behalf:

- - - -

Hello RE-wrenches,
 
Thank you all for your feedback, we really appreciate it.
 
Larry, as you know my team has already responded, I hope all is satisfactory.
 
I would like to make sure you have my contact information in case you have any 
comments or concerns.
 
Sandra Herrera
Applications Engineering and Technical Support Manager, OutBack Power 
Technologies
360.618.4364 office | 425.232.4666 mobile 
sherr...@outbackpower.com

Thanks 
Sandra Herrera


Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote at 08:46 AM 12/8/2015:
 
>Does anyone know how to reach Outback customer service? I have called, waited 
>and left messages and emailed them with no response.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Larry 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[Benn Kilburn]

William,
Are you using this method on roof top systems that are parallel to the roof
as well?

I don't want to bring up the question of what cost this adds to the job
but here i am bringing it up!
(labour and material, ...measuring & cutting pipe to length, cutting slots
and "clips" on table saw, filing cut pipe edges, attaching to rails...)
There is no doubt that your method shows attention to quality and
workmanship however the solar biz is quite competitive and making the
decision to use this method and its added costs would surely cost us jobs.
I'm going to assume that you have been able to standardize and refine this
method to reduce time and costs?

All,
I prefer to keep an assortment of wire management solutions handy on the
roof when we are supporting PV and/or micro-inverter wiresthose being;
thick nylon cable ties *MUST HAVE metal tooth, NOT plastic tooth* (T&B
TY27MX), stainless steel cable ties, and a couple different types of PV
cable clips (heyco) that attach to the rail or module frame.

Assuming a typical house (shingle) roof top system where bottom of the mod
frame rests +-4-6" off the roof surface
If it is a single row of mods with the j-boxes on the high side, then
securing the PV wires can usually be done after the mods are mounted and
can be done quite well with 2-4 metal PV cable clips attached to the
modules upper frame. Securing the PV cable to the mod frame within 12" can
be done and if not then let your professional judgement guide you that it
is secure and protected from coming loose and subject to potential damage
from contact with the roof or anything else.

If it is two rows of mods, one above the other, with the mod j-boxes
meeting in the middle (perhaps sharing microinverters mounted along the
middle rails). or any other combination of module layout, MC wire leads
or microinverter orientation... yes, it can become cumbersome at times to
find appropriate attachment points to secure wires... and it would be to
time consuming and confusing to discuss the array of possibilities here...
so again, you need to rely on your professional judgement to use the proper
material and methods to secure any and all wires.
This is not a task to be given to someone without an eye for detail and
workmanship.

*Benn Kilburn *
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

 [image: google] 

[image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:33 AM, William Miller 
wrote:

> Rebekah:
>
>
>
> What you desire to do is not impossible.  Most module manufacturers
> specify supports approximately 20% form each short side.  For a 66 inch
> module this is 13.2 inches.  If you attach the factory PV leads to the
> rail, you are close to the 12 inch requirement.  If you reduce the offset
> to an actual 12” you are at 18% of the module width. Either way, I suggest
> it is close enough.
>
>
>
> How to secure the leads?  Well there are “UV resistant” wire ties, but the
> lack of longevity of these is starting to be realized.  There are other
> clips or metal reinforced ties that may be adequate.   Clips we tried are
> loose and/or flimsy.
>
>
>
> We have been experimenting with various procedures for over a decade.  Our
> best method so far is to slot PVC pipe and ley the leads inside.  We do
> this on the table saw using dual blades.  The cut is sharp and needs to be
> deburred.  Once we lay the leads in we secure them with a clip made form a
> short section of the same slotted pie.  We cut short lengths of the same
> slotted pipe (3”), expand the slot using PVC cutters and it clips securely
> over the long sections of PVC.  See attached.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 6:06 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Wondering if anyone has insight into Code requirements for
> securing/supporting PV wire behind the modules?
>
>
>
> I am aware that USE-2 sends you to Section 334.30 requirements for Type NM
> (12" from box, every 4.5 ').
>
>
>
> However, I think this is totally bogus, for 2 reasons.
>
> 1) Section 338.10(B)(4)(b) that refers the NM article is titled "Branch
> circuits or Feeders."  These are PV source and output circuits, not branch
> circuits or feeders.
>
>
>
> 2) it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to secure the PV wire within 12" of the module
> junction

Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[Kirpal Khalsa]

SnapNrack.The rails facilitate the same wire securing possibilities as
Williams conduit.They also have great wire clampsWorks very well on
flush roof installs as wellI am sure there are other brands of rack
that this will work with but we have lots of experience with the SnapNrack
and appreciate their design with regards to securing wires underneath the
array


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Benn Kilburn 
wrote:

> William,
> Are you using this method on roof top systems that are parallel to the
> roof as well?
>
> I don't want to bring up the question of what cost this adds to the
> job but here i am bringing it up!
> (labour and material, ...measuring & cutting pipe to length, cutting slots
> and "clips" on table saw, filing cut pipe edges, attaching to rails...)
> There is no doubt that your method shows attention to quality and
> workmanship however the solar biz is quite competitive and making the
> decision to use this method and its added costs would surely cost us jobs.
> I'm going to assume that you have been able to standardize and refine this
> method to reduce time and costs?
>
> All,
> I prefer to keep an assortment of wire management solutions handy on the
> roof when we are supporting PV and/or micro-inverter wiresthose being;
> thick nylon cable ties *MUST HAVE metal tooth, NOT plastic tooth* (T&B
> TY27MX), stainless steel cable ties, and a couple different types of PV
> cable clips (heyco) that attach to the rail or module frame.
>
> Assuming a typical house (shingle) roof top system where bottom of the mod
> frame rests +-4-6" off the roof surface
> If it is a single row of mods with the j-boxes on the high side, then
> securing the PV wires can usually be done after the mods are mounted and
> can be done quite well with 2-4 metal PV cable clips attached to the
> modules upper frame. Securing the PV cable to the mod frame within 12" can
> be done and if not then let your professional judgement guide you that it
> is secure and protected from coming loose and subject to potential damage
> from contact with the roof or anything else.
>
> If it is two rows of mods, one above the other, with the mod j-boxes
> meeting in the middle (perhaps sharing microinverters mounted along the
> middle rails). or any other combination of module layout, MC wire leads
> or microinverter orientation... yes, it can become cumbersome at times to
> find appropriate attachment points to secure wires... and it would be to
> time consuming and confusing to discuss the array of possibilities here...
> so again, you need to rely on your professional judgement to use the proper
> material and methods to secure any and all wires.
> This is not a task to be given to someone without an eye for detail and
> workmanship.
>
> *Benn Kilburn *
> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
> [image: email]  [image: facebook]
>  [image: twitter]
>  [image: linkedin]
> 
>  [image: google] 
>
> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:33 AM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Rebekah:
>>
>>
>>
>> What you desire to do is not impossible.  Most module manufacturers
>> specify supports approximately 20% form each short side.  For a 66 inch
>> module this is 13.2 inches.  If you attach the factory PV leads to the
>> rail, you are close to the 12 inch requirement.  If you reduce the offset
>> to an actual 12” you are at 18% of the module width. Either way, I suggest
>> it is close enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> How to secure the leads?  Well there are “UV resistant” wire ties, but
>> the lack of longevity of these is starting to be realized.  There are other
>> clips or metal reinforced ties that may be adequate.   Clips we tried are
>> loose and/or flimsy.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have been experimenting with various procedures for over a decade.
>> Our best method so far is to slot PVC pipe and ley the leads inside.  We do
>> this on the table saw using dual blades.  The cut is sharp and needs to be
>> deburred.  Once we lay the leads in we secure them with a clip made form a
>> short section of the same slotted pie.  We cut short lengths of the same
>> slotted pipe (3”), expand the slot using PVC cutters and it clips securely
>> over the long sections of PVC.  See attached.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
>> Lic 773985
>> millersolar.com 
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service???

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Thank you for responding Sandra. I appreciate you offering your direct number. 
We are now moving forward with the parts order.

I hope you read and were able to glean from the various replies and comments 
the importance to dealers and installers to receive a higher priority from your 
service department. Stores like Home Depot provide a contractors check out and 
service counter to expedite service to their most valued, repeat customers. It 
should not be too difficult to implement such a service us.

It’s a fact that many of your product sales rest on the recommendations of the 
professionals that are on this list. One person suggested to choose the product 
we sell from a company that provides the best customer support. That was well 
said.

Larry
Starlight Solar Power Systems 



On Dec 9, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Michael Welch  
wrote:

Hi Wrenches. Sandra Herrera contacted me and let me know that Lones has been 
temporarily unavailable to the Wrench list, and she asked me to post this on 
her behalf:

- - - -

Hello RE-wrenches,

Thank you all for your feedback, we really appreciate it.

Larry, as you know my team has already responded, I hope all is satisfactory.

I would like to make sure you have my contact information in case you have any 
comments or concerns.

Sandra Herrera
Applications Engineering and Technical Support Manager, OutBack Power 
Technologies
360.618.4364 office | 425.232.4666 mobile 
sherr...@outbackpower.com

Thanks 
Sandra Herrera


Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote at 08:46 AM 12/8/2015:

> Does anyone know how to reach Outback customer service? I have called, waited 
> and left messages and emailed them with no response.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Larry 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[Benn Kilburn]

Kinetic rails offer the same channels (similar design), and we always lay
the wires in the channels when possible, which still requires either a
nylon or stainless steel cable tie to hold the wires in.
Kinetic recently revised their rails design which has an additional PV wire
channel on the opposite side from the "L-foot" attachment channel. It can
accommodate up to two RPVU90 wires.
I'll post a pic...

*Benn Kilburn *
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

 [image: google] 

[image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:

> SnapNrack.The rails facilitate the same wire securing possibilities as
> Williams conduit.They also have great wire clampsWorks very well on
> flush roof installs as wellI am sure there are other brands of rack
> that this will work with but we have lots of experience with the SnapNrack
> and appreciate their design with regards to securing wires underneath the
> array
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Benn Kilburn 
> wrote:
>
>> William,
>> Are you using this method on roof top systems that are parallel to the
>> roof as well?
>>
>> I don't want to bring up the question of what cost this adds to the
>> job but here i am bringing it up!
>> (labour and material, ...measuring & cutting pipe to length, cutting
>> slots and "clips" on table saw, filing cut pipe edges, attaching to
>> rails...)
>> There is no doubt that your method shows attention to quality and
>> workmanship however the solar biz is quite competitive and making the
>> decision to use this method and its added costs would surely cost us jobs.
>> I'm going to assume that you have been able to standardize and refine this
>> method to reduce time and costs?
>>
>> All,
>> I prefer to keep an assortment of wire management solutions handy on the
>> roof when we are supporting PV and/or micro-inverter wiresthose being;
>> thick nylon cable ties *MUST HAVE metal tooth, NOT plastic tooth* (T&B
>> TY27MX), stainless steel cable ties, and a couple different types of PV
>> cable clips (heyco) that attach to the rail or module frame.
>>
>> Assuming a typical house (shingle) roof top system where bottom of the
>> mod frame rests +-4-6" off the roof surface
>> If it is a single row of mods with the j-boxes on the high side, then
>> securing the PV wires can usually be done after the mods are mounted and
>> can be done quite well with 2-4 metal PV cable clips attached to the
>> modules upper frame. Securing the PV cable to the mod frame within 12" can
>> be done and if not then let your professional judgement guide you that it
>> is secure and protected from coming loose and subject to potential damage
>> from contact with the roof or anything else.
>>
>> If it is two rows of mods, one above the other, with the mod j-boxes
>> meeting in the middle (perhaps sharing microinverters mounted along the
>> middle rails). or any other combination of module layout, MC wire leads
>> or microinverter orientation... yes, it can become cumbersome at times to
>> find appropriate attachment points to secure wires... and it would be to
>> time consuming and confusing to discuss the array of possibilities here...
>> so again, you need to rely on your professional judgement to use the proper
>> material and methods to secure any and all wires.
>> This is not a task to be given to someone without an eye for detail and
>> workmanship.
>>
>> *Benn Kilburn *
>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
>> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
>> [image: email]  [image: facebook]
>>  [image: twitter]
>>  [image: linkedin]
>> 
>>  [image: google] 
>>
>> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:33 AM, William Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rebekah:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What you desire to do is not impossible.  Most module manufacturers
>>> specify supports approximately 20% form each short side.  For a 66 inch
>>> module this is 13.2 inches.  If you attach the factory PV leads to the
>>> rail, you are close to the 12 inch requirement.  If you reduce the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[William Miller]

Ben:



Yes, we do use this technique on roof mount systems as well.  This is true
for micro-inverters and string inverters alike.  The PVC holds trunk cables
and DC cables alike.



The attention we pay to detail does add to the cost of our jobs.  The
development time adds to the production costs.  The Holy Grail is to
develop processes that are quick, efficient and use off-the-shelf
components.



You know what 1-1/2” PVC costs.  We can mill 500 feet of conduit in an
hour, enough for 150 modules.  One person can do it safely, two is
quicker.  Development is again crucial—we built a jig that guides the
conduit and cuts the slot in one pass.  Add stainless cable ties and the
total material costs is about $2.50 per module.  The clips are made from
the conduit scraps.  The slot is widened with PVC cutters and they clip
right on.  This is a very solid method.



Sure the cost adds to the bottom line, and sure we lose some jobs due to
higher costs.  The decision to do what I do is a personal, ethical
decision.  I have a deep sense of satisfaction in a job well done and in
occupying my mind and hands improving my craft.  Marketing is key.  Not
everyone can afford a Mercedes but some can.  I need to convince potential
clients of the difference between brand Miller and the rest.



I see the problem as a failure of regulators to insist on safe practices
on-par with other branches of the electrical industry (try running
unprotected wires to an air-conditioning unit and see if you get away with
it). The good news:  the situation is gradually improving.



Thanks for asking.  These problems and solutions are of great intrigue to
me.  I hope others on this list are willing to improve their techniques and
that I can help in some way.



Sincerely,



William Miller



By the way, Bill Brooks wrote an article addressing the specific of USE and
PV cable management.  I can’t lay my hands on a copy but if anyone is
interested and can’t find a copy on-line I will look further in my files.



Wm



[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 11:57 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?



William,

Are you using this method on roof top systems that are parallel to the roof
as well?

I don't want to bring up the question of what cost this adds to the job
but here i am bringing it up!
(labour and material, ...measuring & cutting pipe to length, cutting slots
and "clips" on table saw, filing cut pipe edges, attaching to rails...)
There is no doubt that your method shows attention to quality and
workmanship however the solar biz is quite competitive and making the
decision to use this method and its added costs would surely cost us jobs.
I'm going to assume that you have been able to standardize and refine this
method to reduce time and costs?

All,
I prefer to keep an assortment of wire management solutions handy on the
roof when we are supporting PV and/or micro-inverter wiresthose being;
thick nylon cable ties *MUST HAVE metal tooth, NOT plastic tooth* (T&B
TY27MX), stainless steel cable ties, and a couple different types of PV
cable clips (heyco) that attach to the rail or module frame.

Assuming a typical house (shingle) roof top system where bottom of the mod
frame rests +-4-6" off the roof surface
If it is a single row of mods with the j-boxes on the high side, then
securing the PV wires can usually be done after the mods are mounted and
can be done quite well with 2-4 metal PV cable clips attached to the
modules upper frame. Securing the PV cable to the mod frame within 12" can
be done and if not then let your professional judgement guide you that it
is secure and protected from coming loose and subject to potential damage
from contact with the roof or anything else.



If it is two rows of mods, one above the other, with the mod j-boxes
meeting in the middle (perhaps sharing microinverters mounted along the
middle rails). or any other combination of module layout, MC wire leads
or microinverter orientation... yes, it can become cumbersome at times to
find appropriate attachment points to secure wires... and it would be to
time consuming and confusing to discuss the array of possibilities here...
so again, you need to rely on your professional judgement to use the proper
material and methods to secure any and all wires.
This is not a task to be given to someone without an eye for detail and
workmanship.


*Benn Kilburn *

CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc

6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7

P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com

[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof in snow country - snow removal

[Benn Kilburn]

Dana,
SESA (Solar Energy Society of Alberta) has been providing a great service
to anyone interested in Solar Energy for many years.  One project touches
on what a PV system will produce at various angles here in Edmonton and the
result of snow removal, or not, in particular.

I've been meaning to reply to this with a link... here it is...
http://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data

Now, assuming we are talking grid connected systems rather than off-grid
when the energy is 'really' needed.

​The rational that this reference array system supports​ is that during the
'snow months' while the days (and sun hours) are short and there is little
potential energy to harvest anyway, there is not a huge, if any, benefit to
pay anyone or risk safety to bother clearing snow off of modules in the
winter.

Of course your site will have its own variables, but if you make some
estimations on days of snow cover and peak sun-hours you are missing out on
then you can calculate the potential loss in kwh and dollar value that you
are loosing due to snow cover.
If someone's time is being paid to remove the snow then it is most likely
not worth the cost considering the $ value of the potential kwh lost.

Our general consensus is that if removing the snow presents any challenge,
especially to safety, then it is best to just leave it to melt.

Not really an answer to your question... but another perspective to
consider.



*Benn Kilburn *
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

 [image: google] 

[image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Dana  wrote:

> For a flat roof, 35° rack mounted large array in snow country what have
> people done for snow removal other than hand shovel it out?
>
> We thought of a dark roof material to start, & we can’t snow blow as there
> will be sidewalks & people below on all 4 sides.
>
> We are trying think this out in advance!
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com
>
> O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
>
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?

[Solar]

Now that I am teaching electrical/solar more than installing electrical/solar I 
am designing labs and systems for education.  As part of my classes I spend 
lots of time discussing wire management and "safe and workman like manner" to 
students with little to no experience in electrical systems. Even these 
students can see the problems with PV wires flung on a roof with little to no 
support. So I've taken a lead from William and I have started installing all of 
our lab systems with cable management like William has shown.  We used PVC to 
support the trunk cables for our enphase pole mount and we use it on both of 
our training roofs. I hope these lessons stay with the students when they leave 
here and enter the workforce. 

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 9, 2015, at 2:30 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Ben:
>  
> Yes, we do use this technique on roof mount systems as well.  This is true 
> for micro-inverters and string inverters alike.  The PVC holds trunk cables 
> and DC cables alike.
>  
> The attention we pay to detail does add to the cost of our jobs.  The 
> development time adds to the production costs.  The Holy Grail is to develop 
> processes that are quick, efficient and use off-the-shelf components. 
>  
> You know what 1-1/2” PVC costs.  We can mill 500 feet of conduit in an hour, 
> enough for 150 modules.  One person can do it safely, two is quicker.  
> Development is again crucial—we built a jig that guides the conduit and cuts 
> the slot in one pass.  Add stainless cable ties and the total material costs 
> is about $2.50 per module.  The clips are made from the conduit scraps.  The 
> slot is widened with PVC cutters and they clip right on.  This is a very 
> solid method.
>  
> Sure the cost adds to the bottom line, and sure we lose some jobs due to 
> higher costs.  The decision to do what I do is a personal, ethical decision.  
> I have a deep sense of satisfaction in a job well done and in occupying my 
> mind and hands improving my craft.  Marketing is key.  Not everyone can 
> afford a Mercedes but some can.  I need to convince potential clients of the 
> difference between brand Miller and the rest.
>  
> I see the problem as a failure of regulators to insist on safe practices 
> on-par with other branches of the electrical industry (try running 
> unprotected wires to an air-conditioning unit and see if you get away with 
> it). The good news:  the situation is gradually improving.
>  
> Thanks for asking.  These problems and solutions are of great intrigue to me. 
>  I hope others on this list are willing to improve their techniques and that 
> I can help in some way.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> William Miller
>  
> By the way, Bill Brooks wrote an article addressing the specific of USE and 
> PV cable management.  I can’t lay my hands on a copy but if anyone is 
> interested and can’t find a copy on-line I will look further in my files.
>  
> Wm
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Benn Kilburn
> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 11:57 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements?
>  
> William,
> Are you using this method on roof top systems that are parallel to the roof 
> as well?
> 
> I don't want to bring up the question of what cost this adds to the job 
> but here i am bringing it up!  
> (labour and material, ...measuring & cutting pipe to length, cutting slots 
> and "clips" on table saw, filing cut pipe edges, attaching to rails...)
> There is no doubt that your method shows attention to quality and workmanship 
> however the solar biz is quite competitive and making the decision to use 
> this method and its added costs would surely cost us jobs.  I'm going to 
> assume that you have been able to standardize and refine this method to 
> reduce time and costs?
> 
> All,
> I prefer to keep an assortment of wire management solutions handy on the roof 
> when we are supporting PV and/or micro-inverter wiresthose being; thick 
> nylon cable ties *MUST HAVE metal tooth, NOT plastic tooth* (T&B TY27MX), 
> stainless steel cable ties, and a couple different types of PV cable clips 
> (heyco) that attach to the rail or module frame.  
> 
> Assuming a typical house (shingle) roof top system where bottom of the mod 
> frame rests +-4-6" off the roof surface
> If it is a single row of mods with the j-boxes on the high side, then 
> securing the PV wires can usually be done after the mods are mounted and can 
> be done quite well with 2-4 metal PV cable clips attached to the modules 
> upper frame. Securing the PV cable to the mod frame within 12" can be done 
> and if not then let your professional judgement guide you that it is secure 
> and protected from coming loose and subject to potential damage fro

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof in snow country - snow removal

[toddcory]

except, "let it melt" on shallow angle roof mounts often yields this:
 
todd
 
 
 
 

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 1:48pm, "Benn Kilburn"  said:


Dana,
SESA (Solar Energy Society of Alberta) has been providing a great service to anyone interested in Solar Energy for many years.  One project touches on what a PV system will produce at various angles here in Edmonton and the result of snow removal, or not, in particular.I've been meaning to reply to this with a link... here it is...http://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data
Now, assuming we are talking grid connected systems rather than off-grid when the energy is 'really' needed.
​The rational that this reference array system supports​ is that during the 'snow months' while the days (and sun hours) are short and there is little potential energy to harvest anyway, there is not a huge, if any, benefit to pay anyone or risk safety to bother clearing snow off of modules in the winter.
Of course your site will have its own variables, but if you make some estimations on days of snow cover and peak sun-hours you are missing out on then you can calculate the potential loss in kwh and dollar value that you are loosing due to snow cover.
If someone's time is being paid to remove the snow then it is most likely not worth the cost considering the $ value of the potential kwh lost.
Our general consensus is that if removing the snow presents any challenge, especially to safety, then it is best to just leave it to melt.
Not really an answer to your question... but another perspective to consider.




 
Benn Kilburn 
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com





On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Dana  wrote:



For a flat roof, 35° rack mounted large array in snow country what have people done for snow removal other than hand shovel it out?
We thought of a dark roof material to start, & we can’t snow blow as there will be sidewalks & people below on all 4 sides.
We are trying think this out in advance!
 

Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof in snow country - snow removal

[Benn Kilburn]

Todd,
I've seen that photo of yours before.  Yeah, that is really something!!!

A few questions
Have you seen it happen on systems or sites other than the one in the photo?
What brand of modules?  Were they covered under warranty? If not, Why not?

So was this a result of some snow accumulation, then melt/freeze cycles
then more snow accumulation which forced the ice build-up down onto the
lower frame edge?  Are you aware/can you clarify what led up to this?
I am aware of massive amounts of snow fall in mountain regions (not
exclusively).  Is that where this was?
Was there a particular "massive snow fall event" prior to this happening?

Thanks,


*Benn Kilburn *
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

 [image: google] 

[image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 2:56 PM,  wrote:

> except, "let it melt" on shallow angle roof mounts often yields this:
>
>
>
>
>
> todd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 1:48pm, "Benn Kilburn" <
> b...@skyfireenergy.com> said:
>
> Dana,
> SESA (Solar Energy Society of Alberta) has been providing a great service
> to anyone interested in Solar Energy for many years.  One project touches
> on what a PV system will produce at various angles here in Edmonton and the
> result of snow removal, or not, in particular.
>
> I've been meaning to reply to this with a link... here it is...
> http://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data
>
> Now, assuming we are talking grid connected systems rather than off-grid
> when the energy is 'really' needed.
> ​The rational that this reference array system supports​ is that during
> the 'snow months' while the days (and sun hours) are short and there is
> little potential energy to harvest anyway, there is not a huge, if any,
> benefit to pay anyone or risk safety to bother clearing snow off of modules
> in the winter.
>
> Of course your site will have its own variables, but if you make some
> estimations on days of snow cover and peak sun-hours you are missing out on
> then you can calculate the potential loss in kwh and dollar value that you
> are loosing due to snow cover.
> If someone's time is being paid to remove the snow then it is most likely
> not worth the cost considering the $ value of the potential kwh lost.
>
> Our general consensus is that if removing the snow presents any challenge,
> especially to safety, then it is best to just leave it to melt.
>
> Not really an answer to your question... but another perspective to
> consider.
>
>
>
> *Benn Kilburn *
> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
> [image: email]  [image: facebook]
>  [image: twitter]
>  [image: linkedin]
> 
>  [image: google] 
>
> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]
>
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Dana  wrote:
>
>> For a flat roof, 35° rack mounted large array in snow country what have
>> people done for snow removal other than hand shovel it out?
>>
>> We thought of a dark roof material to start, & we can’t snow blow as
>> there will be sidewalks & people below on all 4 sides.
>>
>> We are trying think this out in advance!
>>
>>
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>> 
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>> Dana Orzel
>>
>> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof in snow country - snow removal

[toddcory]

benn,
 
yes, this has happened to me on two sites (until i learned this type of mount does not work). one had mitsubishi modules and another evergreen modules. other colleagues here have had these painful "learning opportunities" too. both of these jobs were for customers who insisted on roof, rather than my suggestion of pole mounts. after the damage, the the pictured system was changed to a problem free pole mount. there was no warranty coverage as this was a installation design error, not a module manufacturing defect.this is nothing other than snow, which sits on a shallow angle mounted module. compression, and the daily freeze/thaw cycles change the bottom layer to ice. subsequent snows add weight, and the downhill creep tears the bottom edge off the module. then the unsupported glass breaks.shallow angle mounts, 6/12 and below are usually problematic. steep angle mounts (steep angles shed the snow) 12/12 and above are usually not a problem. between 6/12 and 12/12 is a grey area depending on specific conditions.
 
these are not "massive" snow events, just normal winter conditions. i live in the mount shasta area of northern california. 
 
todd 

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 2:11pm, "Benn Kilburn"  said:


Todd,
I've seen that photo of yours before.  Yeah, that is really something!!!
A few questions
Have you seen it happen on systems or sites other than the one in the photo?
What brand of modules?  Were they covered under warranty? If not, Why not?
So was this a result of some snow accumulation, then melt/freeze cycles then more snow accumulation which forced the ice build-up down onto the lower frame edge?  Are you aware/can you clarify what led up to this?I am aware of massive amounts of snow fall in mountain regions (not exclusively).  Is that where this was?
Was there a particular "massive snow fall event" prior to this happening?
Thanks,




 
Benn Kilburn 
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com





On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 2:56 PM,  wrote:

except, "let it melt" on shallow angle roof mounts often yields this:
 
todd


 
 
 
 
On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 1:48pm, "Benn Kilburn"  said:


Dana,
SESA (Solar Energy Society of Alberta) has been providing a great service to anyone interested in Solar Energy for many years.  One project touches on what a PV system will produce at various angles here in Edmonton and the result of snow removal, or not, in particular.I've been meaning to reply to this with a link... here it is...http://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data
Now, assuming we are talking grid connected systems rather than off-grid when the energy is 'really' needed.
​The rational that this reference array system supports​ is that during the 'snow months' while the days (and sun hours) are short and there is little potential energy to harvest anyway, there is not a huge, if any, benefit to pay anyone or risk safety to bother clearing snow off of modules in the winter.
Of course your site will have its own variables, but if you make some estimations on days of snow cover and peak sun-hours you are missing out on then you can calculate the potential loss in kwh and dollar value that you are loosing due to snow cover.
If someone's time is being paid to remove the snow then it is most likely not worth the cost considering the $ value of the potential kwh lost.
Our general consensus is that if removing the snow presents any challenge, especially to safety, then it is best to just leave it to melt.
Not really an answer to your question... but another perspective to consider.




 
Benn Kilburn 
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com





On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Dana  wrote:



For a flat roof, 35° rack mounted large array in snow country what have people done for snow removal other than hand shovel it out?
We thought of a dark roof material to start, & we can’t snow blow as there will be sidewalks & people below on all 4 sides.
We are trying think this out in advance!
 

Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

[Tom Duffy]

I would always use caution when asking anyone for design recommendations. I 
they can't give good info get another distributor. Price is not the holy grail

Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
[Real-logo-X-195]
E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz
Panama Office: 507-6126-1253
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz

NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Tump
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:29 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

Many, not all, OutBack Distributors offer design and tech support,  that can 
lead to questionable system design. I had a client discus a system that they 
were getting from a distributor in LA that was NOT designed correctly for the 
low temps here in maine. Be careful ...sometimes you DO get what you pay 
for.
On Dec 9, 2015, at 10:12 AM, Tom Duffy wrote:


Hi Rebekah

Many, not all, OutBack Distributors offer design and tech support as well to 
dealer/installers. In most cases they will be able to answer questions on a 
larger range of products as well.


Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz
Panama Office: 507-6126-1253
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz

NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Rebekah Hren
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

Advice I often give to students in PV classes: if you are trying to decide 
between two similar pieces of equipment at a similar cost (rack, inverter, 
modules, whatever), try calling the tech support line to ask a technical 
question and see what happens. Does anyone answer and how quickly? If so does 
that person have a clue as to how to answer your question? If they don't know 
how quickly can they get you to someone who does? I know things wax and wane 
over time at any company, but you can sure learn a lot about a company calling 
the tech support line before you spec equipment.

I would just add that it's pretty amazing Midnite puts their tech support folks 
names, phone numbers and email addresses on their website. I don't think I've 
seen any other PV company do that.

Rebekah


On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:15 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Hi Peter,

I only had the option to leave a message and after about 1 hour on hold I did 
so. That was a week ago. I had not heard of calling at a specific hour. Is this 
something they suggest? Where did you hear of this 0700 calling time?

Larry


On Dec 8, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Peter Parrish 
mailto:peter.parr...@calsolareng.com>> wrote:

Phil Undercuffler has the title of Chief Technologist, Product Development - or 
something to that effect. I suggest not trying to reach him with 
run-of-the-mill issues, but if your want to engage him about future product 
development, or to get confirmation about utility issues, NEM 2.0, industry 
trends, etc. he is the best person at Outback Power to talk to. If you want to 
know more about how to program the Radian Series, he could point you to the 
right person.

I think a lot of problems with Outback can be traced to their off-grid 
history...

Has anyone tried to make a telecon appointment with Outback Tech Support: call 
them at 0700 h PT and ask to get a call back at a certain time later in the day?


-  Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter...@pobox.com


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