Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Drake Chamberlin]

At 06:50 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

You Wrote

"This is déjà vu.
The only other choice would be to use a contactor 
to ensure PV disconnection when the grid is down 
- then you could tap the PV on the load side of the transfer switch."


This is definitely deja vu all over again.  A 
system I designed, that disconnected 3 Sunny Boy 
inverters by having contactors on the load side 
of the transfer switch, had a problem.  When the 
contactors opened on generator exercise 
cycle,  the circuit breakers between the 
inverters and contactors tripped.  They did not 
trip every time, but randomly.  One or two would 
trip and the other would not.


After many hours of investigation and talking 
with SMA, no reason for this was ever found. The 
circuit apparently had no problem with nuisance 
tripping when the Sunny Boys were not 
producing.  We have theories, but tech support 
and other professionals do not think this should happen.


If you try this method, please let me know your results.



Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Drake Chamberlin]

I was recently told by SMA that in the event that 
the inverters did connect to generator output, 
and the load was less than the inverter output, 
that the voltage would rise and the inverters 
would fall off line.  A year or so before I'd 
been told by another SMA representative that 
generator circuit boards had been fried by inverter backfeed.


It would  be very good to get to the bottom of this one.

At 10:10 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Hi folks:
(Eric, by 'directly to the utility grid' I do mean with a breaker)
   Jason and  Allen, I agree with what you are 
saying, in theory, but in practice, it is not 
always possible.  I am installing a generator 
in a couple of weeks for a customer with an 
existing 9 KW array.   The property's main 
service is located at a separate building from 
the house, loads, and solar.  The main panel 
feeds 200 Amps to the main residence and 200 
Amps to a barn building (300 ft away)  The barn 
building has the array at it, and also the well 
pump, which needs to be backed up by the 
generator.  This requires us to either dig a 
300' trench or just leave the system in 
auto.  We will be utilizing a 200A Automatic 
Transfer Switch, but we will not be able to 
place the generator into Auto mode.  The 
customer understands the situation, and said 
that he would leave the genny in 'manual' start 
mode.  I feed good about the situation, will 
disable the auto-start system, and will provide competent labelling.


Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037



From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 3:50:23 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

This is déjà vu.

I would say that the only safe and "correct" way 
is to connect the PV inverter output on the line 
side of the transfer switch. If you are on the 
generator side of the xfer switch, you are 
asking for trouble. The only other choice would 
be to use a contactor to ensure PV disconnection 
when the grid is down - then you could tap the 
PV on the load side of the transfer switch.


And to answer Eric's #1 question in the original 
post, you may not need to resize/replace the 
panel if you follow this approach. We go with a 
line side tap in this scenario unless there is a 
compelling reason to do otherwise.


Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
http://fafcosolar.com



Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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[RE-wrenches] acre/MW

[Michael Gullo]

Esteemed wrenches:

We are bidding on an industrial sized project. What is the approximate land 
usage of a ground array in acre/MW. I have estimated around 5 acre/MW but I'm 
really not sure if I am way high or low. Thanks.

Mike
Michael Gullo
Solar Solutions LLC
Marlton, NJ

NABCEP Certified PV Installer T
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Re: [RE-wrenches] acre/MW

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Denver International airport just installed 1.6 megawatt on 9 acres.



-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Michael Gullo  wrote:

>  Esteemed wrenches:
>
> We are bidding on an industrial sized project. What is the approximate land
> usage of a ground array in acre/MW. I have estimated around 5 acre/MW but
> I'm really not sure if I am way high or low. Thanks.
>
> Mike
> Michael Gullo
> Solar Solutions LLC
> Marlton, NJ
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] acre/MW

[Scott McCalmont]

It will depend on the technology of the modules, too--whether you're using
monocrystalline, poly, or thin-film. I recently spec'ed a thin-film design
which worked out to 150 kW per acre. With more efficient modules you could
be 50% better, so your 5 acre/MW number is reasonable.

It also will depend on where you are building the plant. At higher
latitudes, you might want the array to have a greater tilt, which probably
means you will space the rows out more to minimize inter-row shading.

Scott

Scott McCalmont, P.E.
McCalmont Engineering
San Jose, CA

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Michael Gullo  wrote:

>  Esteemed wrenches:
>
> We are bidding on an industrial sized project. What is the approximate land
> usage of a ground array in acre/MW. I have estimated around 5 acre/MW but
> I'm really not sure if I am way high or low. Thanks.
>
> Mike
> Michael Gullo
> Solar Solutions LLC
> Marlton, NJ
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Michael Kelly]

All,

If the grid-tie inverter is operating under UL1741 (and therefore IEEE1547),
then the inverter has to cease output within 1 second of the voltage going
over 10% of the base voltage.  So in the case where the generator is
outputting and the load is less than the inverter output, the voltage will
rise and the inverter will cease to ouput.  The voltage will then drop, the
inverter will reconnect, and the cycle will repeat itself.  That assumes the
generator's waveform is clean enough for the inverter to connect to in the
first place.  James Worden from Solectria Renewables covered this briefly in
a SolarPro article:
http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP2_5_pg16_QandA_2.

- Mike
--
Michael Kelly
Project Manager / Project Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™

SolarFlair Energy, Inc.
11 Mayhew Street
Framingham, MA 01702
Direct Mobile: 617-899-9840
Main Phone: 508-293-4293
Main Fax: 508-293-4003
m...@solarflair.com


On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Drake Chamberlin <
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

> I was recently told by SMA that in the event that the inverters did connect
> to generator output, and the load was less than the inverter output, that
> the voltage would rise and the inverters would fall off line.  A year or so
> before I'd been told by another SMA representative that generator circuit
> boards had been fried by inverter backfeed.
>
> It would  be very good to get to the bottom of this one.
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Jason Szumlanski]

While inverters are supposed to work this way, and do so very well on
the grid, have any inverters been formally TESTED with various
generators to confirm the theory?

Anecdotes and theories are not enough. Until there are TESTS and
guarantees from inverter manufacturers that expensive generator control
boards will not be damaged, I would err on the side of caution. Get a
waiver from your customer if they insist you connect on the load side of
the generator transfer switch. I doubt you will get an independent P.E.
to sign off on it and take the liability. I could be wrong, but
why risk it?

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
http://fafcosolar.com

-Original Message-


All,

If the grid-tie inverter is operating under UL1741 (and therefore
IEEE1547),
then the inverter has to cease output within 1 second of the voltage
going
over 10% of the base voltage.  So in the case where the generator is
outputting and the load is less than the inverter output, the voltage
will
rise and the inverter will cease to ouput.  The voltage will then drop,
the
inverter will reconnect, and the cycle will repeat itself.  That assumes
the
generator's waveform is clean enough for the inverter to connect to in
the
first place.  James Worden from Solectria Renewables covered this
briefly in
a SolarPro article:
http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP2_5_pg16_QandA_2.

- Mike
--
Michael Kelly
Project Manager / Project Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ?

SolarFlair Energy, Inc.
11 Mayhew Street
Framingham, MA 01702
Direct Mobile: 617-899-9840
Main Phone: 508-293-4293
Main Fax: 508-293-4003
m...@solarflair.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Darryl Thayer]

Hello all 
I am under a time line so I do not have time to review until later.  But I have 
tried a few times and I can not ever get a grid tied inverter to sync with a 
generator.  I have been successful with bimodal (Battery based)inverters in a 
varied ways. (Apollo, Outback, Xantrex)  

A word of caution, a generator in parallel with an inverter can give strange 
voltage spikes.  This is the same as with inverters for mortor drives (never 
try this with a modified sine wave, and the voltage spikes may be why some 
people have reported damage to generator boards) . 

Darryl 

--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

> From: Jason Szumlanski 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 1:22 PM
> While inverters are supposed to work
> this way, and do so very well on
> the grid, have any inverters been formally TESTED with
> various
> generators to confirm the theory?
> 
> Anecdotes and theories are not enough. Until there are
> TESTS and
> guarantees from inverter manufacturers that expensive
> generator control
> boards will not be damaged, I would err on the side of
> caution. Get a
> waiver from your customer if they insist you connect on the
> load side of
> the generator transfer switch. I doubt you will get an
> independent P.E.
> to sign off on it and take the liability. I could be wrong,
> but
> why risk it?
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
> http://fafcosolar.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> If the grid-tie inverter is operating under UL1741 (and
> therefore
> IEEE1547),
> then the inverter has to cease output within 1 second of
> the voltage
> going
> over 10% of the base voltage.  So in the case where
> the generator is
> outputting and the load is less than the inverter output,
> the voltage
> will
> rise and the inverter will cease to ouput.  The
> voltage will then drop,
> the
> inverter will reconnect, and the cycle will repeat
> itself.  That assumes
> the
> generator's waveform is clean enough for the inverter to
> connect to in
> the
> first place.  James Worden from Solectria Renewables
> covered this
> briefly in
> a SolarPro article:
> http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP2_5_pg16_QandA_2.
> 
> - Mike
> --
> Michael Kelly
> Project Manager / Project Engineer
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ?
> 
> SolarFlair Energy, Inc.
> 11 Mayhew Street
> Framingham, MA 01702
> Direct Mobile: 617-899-9840
> Main Phone: 508-293-4293
> Main Fax: 508-293-4003
> m...@solarflair.com
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Hugh]

I know a guy in Colombia who connects his Magnatek Aurora inverter to 
a genset when the grid is down.  Seems to work most of the time. 
He's got some sort of chinese turbine and chinese controller that 
dumps power off the back-up generator when necessary.


Isn't there some way to detect reverse power and add a dump load? 
Seems a shame to kill the renewable input when the grid is down.

--
Hugh Piggott

Scoraig Wind Electric
Scotland
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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[RE-wrenches] Fed. 30% grant to businesses

[Eric Andrews]

Has anyone worked through the process of getting their customer a federal
grant in lieu of the tax credit?  (supplying more of the endless paperwork
to the accountant)
 
One of the requirements is that a PE stamp the design.  The requirement is
vague and it does not say what kind of PE or systems over X size.  The IRS Q
& A folks aren't giving a clear answer.  The only time we normally use a PE
is for structural (design load calcs.) purposes.  These are not large
utility sized systems.
 
 
Eric R. Andrews
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
 
Eco Solar, Inc.
www.ecosolarnow.com
 
PO Box 5194
Klamath Falls, OR 97601
541-281-8252 cell
541-273-3200 office
  mailto:e...@ecosolarnow.com
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fed. 30% grant to businesses

[matt]

We have had clients receive the grant without the PE stamp (only on
installs under 10 kW so far).  Part of the paperwork was an affidavit that
the system was standard design and met all codes in the jurisdiction.  We
included a wiring diagram.

Matt


Matthew Partymiller
Solar Energy Solutions LLC
(859) 312-7456
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com


> Has anyone worked through the process of getting their customer a federal
> grant in lieu of the tax credit?  (supplying more of the endless paperwork
> to the accountant)
>
> One of the requirements is that a PE stamp the design.  The requirement is
> vague and it does not say what kind of PE or systems over X size.  The IRS
> Q
> & A folks aren't giving a clear answer.  The only time we normally use a
> PE
> is for structural (design load calcs.) purposes.  These are not large
> utility sized systems.
>
>
> Eric R. Andrews
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
> Eco Solar, Inc.
> www.ecosolarnow.com
>
> PO Box 5194
> Klamath Falls, OR 97601
> 541-281-8252 cell
> 541-273-3200 office
>   mailto:e...@ecosolarnow.com
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fed. 30% grant to businesses

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Eric..greetingsyes this process is definitely long and far from
clear.we have also inquired as to what type of engineering report they
require..we have received no clear answer.we have submitted one
application with another set to start the process tomorrowthe first one
was a top of pole mount system and we had the soil sample signed off by an
engineer for the footing.that is what we submitted.they have
requested more info but not pertaining to the engineering info so it seems
as thought they have accepted that.my suspicion with out clear
guidelines from them is that *any* stamped engineering report will
dostructural, electrical, truss company, etc.maybe you can have an
engineer stamp your one line drawing for a small fee..it seems to me
that so long as you have an engineers stamp on any phase of the project they
would accept that as they don't seem to wish to give any clear guidelines as
to what they are looking for.
good luck and keep me posted on your successwe have our fingers crossed
on our first application going thru and hope that what we have learned on
that first process will make the next ones go smoother
Take care,

-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Eric Andrews  wrote:

>  Has anyone worked through the process of getting their customer a federal
> grant in lieu of the tax credit?  (supplying more of the endless paperwork
> to the accountant)
>
>
>
> One of the requirements is that a *PE* stamp the design.  The requirement
> is vague and it does not say what kind of PE or systems over X size.  The
> IRS Q & A folks aren’t giving a clear answer.  The only time we normally
> use a PE is for structural (design load calcs.) purposes.  These are not
> large utility sized systems.
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric R. Andrews
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
>
>
> Eco Solar, Inc.
>
> www.ecosolarnow.com
>
>
>
> PO Box 5194
>
> Klamath Falls, OR 97601
>
> 541-281-8252 cell
>
> 541-273-3200 office
>
> mailto:e...@ecosolarnow.com 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generators and Grid-tie Systems

[Dana Brandt]

SMA has an intelligent dump load that works with their AC coupled systems.
It's call a Smart Load, but I don't think they have a UL listed version. SMA
has some pretty impressive technology along the lines of AC coupling that
they've chosen not to make for the US market.

Dana


Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.com
d...@ecotechenergy.com
360.510.0433


On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Hugh  wrote:

> I know a guy in Colombia who connects his Magnatek Aurora inverter to a
> genset when the grid is down.  Seems to work most of the time. He's got some
> sort of chinese turbine and chinese controller that dumps power off the
> back-up generator when necessary.
>
> Isn't there some way to detect reverse power and add a dump load? Seems a
> shame to kill the renewable input when the grid is down.
> --
> Hugh Piggott
>
> Scoraig Wind Electric
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